Glucosamine - any good?

[Melanie]

Any thoughts on glucosamine? Physiotherapist says my constant back pain is likely due to arthritis (tho that's not a diagnosis, he stresses) and g. has been recommended twice by good friends, one a sports dietician who knows her stuff. I have found websites that detail medical studies showing the apparent efficacy of g. over ibuprofen, but wonder if any of you lot know any different? I will probably try it anyway - reached the stage where something really has to be done about this debilitating pain - but side effects of long-term use would be useful to know before I start.

Thanks!

[Aardvark]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/glucosamine.html

http://www.arc.org.uk/newsviews/press/jan2001/glutrails.htm

http://www.arc.org.uk/newsviews/press/feb2001/gluco.htm

Start here and read all you can.

In short, shouldn't do you any harm other than lighten your wallet, may have some benefit?

Caveat emptor

[Mongrel]

First step is to get to your doctor if arthritis is suspected, they'll be able to say yes or no.

If it is arthritis then yes it can help, this Bandolier article (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band85/b85-2.html) is worth a read. Also if the doctor confirms the diagnosis you're able to get glucosamine on prescription :)

[Melanie]

Thanks a lot for the links, guys. Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription... I'll let you know if it works, though from all accounts it could take a couple of months. This pain is so constant, if it eases there can be no other reason!

[Admin]

Glucosamine claims have the hallmarks of quackery but that's probably because of the alt. meddlers exaggerated claims for it. ::)

My mother has arthritis and has used glucosamine so I decided to look into it a while back.

I was encouraged by reports on Bandolier that there is some evidence for its efficacy, although it's not really much more effective than taking ibuprofen (or similar).

I guess it's a case of whether you feel like you're benefiting from it (placebo effects et al :D) and whether the effects are cost effective.

It's, currently, supported by evidence so well worth a try IMO. O0

[Outsider]

Thanks a lot for the links, guys. Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription... I'll let you know if it works, though from all accounts it could take a couple of months. This pain is so constant, if it eases there can be no other reason!


Hi Melanie,

I'd love to know how you're getting on with this...
I had a terrible couple of months from last October of constant neck/shoulder pain and limited movement so I gave glucosamine a go, (and since all my arthritis blood tests came back negative, it's self administered. I didn't want to rely on Painkillers/NSAIDS because they make my psoriasis worse).

After a month's worth of glucosamine, the pain in my neck and shoulder has subsided and I have almost full movement back. Because of this, I feel I would be crazy to stop taking it.

Hope yours has helped...

[ann]

If it is any help both my husband and I have been helped by Glucosomin :)

A few wee points.

Not helped RADICALLY - but discomfort definately much better, his hands and my knee - and wear and tear seems to be less obvious.

There is scientific evidence that this product does help replenish the Synovial Fluid around the joints, which is a simple sugar, and protects the joints from harm - and we loose this with age - or sports etc.

But it does take time - symptoms do not ease for at least 3 months - and that is on the highest dose - so it is important not to give up in despair but to keep on taking the tablets or liquid, because just purchasing one month's supply and then never again because nothing happened will not work for you. :-[

Once it begins to work, you shold take it for the rest of your life, with wee breaks to allow your body to act on its own accord.

By the way the same applies to herbal medicines such as St. John's Wort, Echinacea and Milk Thistle. Only take for 1 month to 6 weeks, then let your body have a rest. And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves with the help of this herb and you no longer need to take it. The liver is self healing and only requires a month of MT and Echinacea is dangerous for longterm use and tricks the body into thinking it doesn't have to do any work! >:(

Ann

[Araneus]

I'm seeing a lot of potential regression fallacies in these anecdotes. A large amount of back/neck/shoulder pain could reasonably be expected to disappear by itself in a matter of months, no matter what remedies are taken.

(I'm not offering an opinion on glucosamine either way however, I've never even heard of it before)

[Admin]

Apart from a couple of things which show a slight effect, I think that the vast majority of herbal products simply rely on placebo effects. The regressive fallacy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/explanation.php?dir=articles/explanations&article=regressive_fallacy.php) being one of the major ones.

And we should also remember that those herbs that do have an effect do so because of the drugs they contain. It makes no difference whether a drug is manufactured in a plant or in a laboratory - to think that 'natural' drugs are harmless or better than synthetic drugs is to make the naturalistic fallacy.

St. John's Wort is known to interfere with many prescription drugs one of which is the blood-thinning drug Warfarin. Taking St. John's Wort, whilst on Warfarin, in the belief that it is natural therefore harmless could be fatal (!)


And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

If the person feels somewhat better after six weeks it may be because they took the St John's Wort whilst they were at their worst and would have improved anyway (the regressive fallacy again).

Yes, there's clinical evidence to support St. John's Wort for use in mild depression but it's all too easy to attribute coincidental recovery to whatever remedy is being taken at the time. The Post-Hoc fallacy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/explanation.php?dir=articles/explanations&article=post_hoc.php).

Echinacea, for example, does not fare well in trials yet people will swear by it. See: http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band109/b109-7.html

Most evidence for these products is anecdotal and in large part attributable to the many ways that we can fool ourselves into believing things that are not so rather than any properties of the treatments.

[ann]

Quote
And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

Because there has been extensive research in Germany which proves the herbs effectiveness.

Ann

[kath23]

But other research has said St Johns Wort is no better than placebo, hasn't it? Hence it isn't prescribed by GPs in the UK.

Also it interacts with a great deal of medications for many different conditions. I can't take it as I take an epilepsy type med, and my partner has had a transplant so he can't take it.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/special_reports/depression/stjwort.htm

interacts with other drugs causing them to metabolise through the body too quickly. This is obviously very significant for people on the contraceptive pill or the blood-thinning drug warfarin, who are at risk of a stroke.

Warnings issued

The Medicines Control Agency issued a warning on March 1st 2000 that patients who are on a long list of drugs should stop taking St John's wort until they have consulted their GP or pharmacist. Medications for asthma, epilepsy, depression, migraine and heart problems are all implicated.

The authorities in the Irish Republic have gone further by banning the over-the-counter sale of the ancient herbal remedy since January 1st 2000. It is now available only on prescription.

In the United States, the Food and Drugs Administration (FDA) issued a warning in February 2000 that the herb could interfere with drugs used to treat HIV-infected patients. It also raised the possibility of complications for other patients taking similar medication, including those undergoing heart transplants. The FDA cited research showing that for patients taking St John's wort, the effectiveness of the antiviral drug Indinavir was 'dulled'.

[ann]

Precisely - so one should always see either your GP to find out if there are any contra-indications to St. John's Wort, or a Medical Herbalist. Medical Herbalism is now a Degree course in many Universities and consequently Herbalists are highly qualified in the subject of which herb to take for what and avoiding any contra-indications. If there are no contra-indications, St. John's Wort is a very useful alternative for mild depression than Prozac. Without any Placebo effect ;) It really DOES work.


With regard to plants as medicines, what then is Tamoxifen, which has saved many lives of women with breast cancer, other than plant based form the Yew Tree?

We already know of dozens of plants that are vital to modern western medicine, and there are thousands more used in traditional and herbal remedies. Below are a few examples.

Plant Medical use
Rosy periwinkle Chemical extracts enable four out of five children with leukaemia to recover.


Foxglove Extracts regulate the heartbeat of people with heart ailments

Curare Produces a muscle relaxant used in surgery

White birch Some tests have shown it may be effective in killing melanoma (skin cancer) cells

Velvet bean Used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease

Himalayan yew Produces taxol, which is used to treat several forms of cancer

Willow Extracts inspired the development of aspirin

Cinchona tree Quinine is extracted from the bark and used to treat malaria

Wild yam Extracts are modified to produce oestrogen, which is used in birth control pills.

And dear old Aspirin ;D already mentioned above

So we can see medicines come from many plants.

Ann

[Admin]

Quote
And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

Because there has been extensive research in Germany which proves the herbs effectiveness.

Ann


The herb's effectiveness (for mild depression) is not in question.

I asked the question because statements like "you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves" are purely speculative. If someone self-diagnoses themselves as 'mildly depressed' and takes St. John's Wort for 6 weeks and then feel better it may well be the regressive fallacy in action as explained above.

A person has no idea of what their seratonin levels are or whether they're truly depressed or temporarily feeling run down.

The point I'm making is that self-diagnosis and self-prescription can lead to anecdotal evidence that is completely wrong (!)

[Admin]

St. John's Wort is a very useful alternative for mild depression than Prozac. Without any Placebo effect ;) It really DOES work.

No. All treatments have a placebo effect component. It's only those that have an effect above placebo that are termed efficacious.


With regard to plants as medicines, what then is Tamoxifen, which has saved many lives of women with breast cancer, other than plant based form the Yew Tree?

We already know of dozens of plants that are vital to modern western medicine, and there are thousands more used in traditional and herbal remedies. Below are a few examples.

Plant Medical use
Rosy periwinkle Chemical extracts enable four out of five children with leukaemia to recover.


Foxglove Extracts regulate the heartbeat of people with heart ailments

Curare Produces a muscle relaxant used in surgery

White birch Some tests have shown it may be effective in killing melanoma (skin cancer) cells

Velvet bean Used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease

Himalayan yew Produces taxol, which is used to treat several forms of cancer

Willow Extracts inspired the development of aspirin

Cinchona tree Quinine is extracted from the bark and used to treat malaria

Wild yam Extracts are modified to produce oestrogen, which is used in birth control pills.

And dear old Aspirin ;D

So we can see medicines come from many plants.


You're preaching to the converted here. ;)

We know that nature is a rich source of medicinally useful drugs. O0

What skeptics object to is the use of such herbs etc. by unqualified quacks who think they know what the herbs can be used for whilst having zero scientific understanding of what they're really doing.

Herbs can be dangerous - even lethal. And with a lack of real understanding of these products, we'll always be faced with stories like this: http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=07-06#clt

So yes, herbs can be very useful for medicine but it's through science that their benefits will be realised: not quackery.

[ann]

I totally agree about the 'quackery' point John ;)

My point about Medical Herbalists really tried to highlight the way we have moved on in our understanding of this, by making them go through a very tough Degree Course, which I personally know about through a friend who has just completed hers. Hopefully no one with any sense will go to anyone who is not thus qualified in the future.

I would draw issue with you as regards Prozac though, as the side effects are anything other than acceptable in most people and therefore most difficult to separate the effects of the drug from any 'placebo' effect they may have.


Ann

[Mongrel]

I'd point out that there are any number of drugs used to treat depressive disorders, not just Prozac, many of them work by 'patching up' malfunctioning body chemistry. During a treatment regime the recipient should be seeing their fairly frequently, if the prescribed product doesn't appear to be working then an alternative can be found that does - it may take a little while to achieve the correct medicine at the correct dosage.

Another isssue I have with commercial preparations is the inconsistency of the product itself, have a peek at Bandolier (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/) or see if your library has a copy of Martindales (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martindale-Complete-Drug-Reference/dp/085369687X/sr=8-1/qid=1172621959/ref=pd_ka_1/026-7114374-7325229?ie=UTF8&s=books)- you'll often see a line mentioning "variable efficay" or similar (if you're chummy with your local Pharmacist they may let you have a look at a copy, most of them have one floating around).

I've said many times that I would have no issues with herbal medicine if it has been rigourously tested (double blind of course) for safety and efficacy and was subject to the same regulation in both production and sale as conventional medicines.



Hopefully no one with any sense will go to anyone who is not thus qualified in the future.


;D
I'm sorry, it's just that I'm cynical of humanity, any proposition that's qualified with "no one with any sense..." is a sure road to being dissapointed.

[kath23]

The point I'm making is that self-diagnosis and self-prescription can lead to anecdotal evidence that is completely wrong (!)


Exactly. Mild depression is a condition that always passes with time. If it doesn't go away, it's clinical/major depression for which St.John's Wort has no effect.

Also self-prescribing with St. John's wort can stop people with clinical depression from getting help earlier (this has happened to me). Then by the time they see doctor, they and their lives are in a far worse state than if they had gone to their doctor earlier. Their condition then is more difficult to treat and get over.

[Cuddles]

Medical Herbalism is now a Degree course in many Universities and consequently Herbalists are highly qualified in the subject of which herb to take for what and avoiding any contra-indications.

David Beckham is also a degree course. Just because you can be given a degree in something does not mean that degree is worthwhile. What universities offer this course? Are they actually respectable universities or are they simply diploma mills? The whole point of modern medicine is that it uses everything that can be shown to work, whether from a plant or not. Even more, it tries to find out exactly what is giving an effect so that we can use just that without other unwanted substance being present, and possibly even improve on what we have. You say that "Medical Herbalists" are trained to know what to take to cure things, but this is exactly what doctors do, except that doctors use things that aren't plants as well. At the very best, all you get out of this degree would be a very poorly qualified person who knows a few plants that can help a few things, but nothing else. At the worst you have a bunch of quacks who pretend their pointless degree actually means something. Either way, people with this training are no substitute for a real doctor.

[chillzero]

Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription...

I don't understand - why would you do this?
Why not see your GP as well, and ensure you are properly diagnosed? What if you require medical attention for something entirely different?

???

[kath23]

Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription...

I don't understand - why would you do this?
Why not see your GP as well, and ensure you are properly diagnosed? What if you require medical attention for something entirely different?

???


Erm. Darwin awards ;)

[Mongrel]

Sixteen year old overdoses on St. Johns Wort (http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2007/03/natural-hypocrisy-is-safe-hypocrisy.html)

[Outsider]

I'm seeing a lot of potential regression fallacies in these anecdotes. A large amount of back/neck/shoulder pain could reasonably be expected to disappear by itself in a matter of months, no matter what remedies are taken.

(I'm not offering an opinion on glucosamine either way however, I've never even heard of it before)


Then perhaps you're lucky not to have had to seek an 'alternative' treatment, in which case you wouldn't have read this:

Evidence that glucosamine (and chondroitin) is effective in osteoarthritis continues to build. We now have two top class reviews of older, short, studies that come to this conclusion, and a new randomised trial of some quality that demonstrates a clear disease-modifying effect, as well as showing improvements in pain and functioning and an absence of long-term harm. Added to this is the accumulating volume of anecdotal evidence from professionals who prescribe glucosamine with good effect, and of individual who use it and report the same good effects.

I concede that in my case it may have been natural regression. However, my condition showed no improvement over the course of a year and just got gradually worse. It does have a 'remission' period, but on a small timescale, say, over a week. Possibly it's related to the psoriasis, although I have had three blood tests over 15 years, all came back negative for psoriatic arthritis. I was offered Ibuprofen but I am concerned that it makes my skin condition worsen. Paracetamol is the only painkiller I can take without immediate adverse effects.
I recently finished a 12 week course of UVB phototherapy which helped to clear the skin for a while. Whilst having this treatment I was advised not to take any supplements which included Vitamin D (for obvious reasons), and I stopped taking glucosamine as well because the locum doctor I consulted beforehand advised me that if my diet was well balanced I shouldn't need any supplements whatsoever.

A week after the UVB treatment ended, the skin problem came back with a vengeance, and I was warned that this may happen. It has settled again now but in retrospect it didn't seem worth it for a couple of 'clear' weeks.

Of course, I've noticed that the back/neck/shoulder pain is worsening again. :-\ In the face of little or no choice for me, I would rather take glucosamine+fish oil every day than paracetamol ...sometimes you feel that there is no choice but to self administer, when faced with the prospect of continuing pain.

[Cuddles]

I haven't read that report, but the fact that they say

Added to this is the accumulating volume of anecdotal evidence from professionals who prescribe glucosamine with good effect, and of individual who use it and report the same good effects.raises serious credibility questions. There are numerous anecdotal reports in favour of homeopathy, acupuncture, prayer healing, telekinesis and the Loch Ness monster. As has been said many time before, the plural of anecdote is not data.

[bindeweede]

Thanks a lot for the links, guys. Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription... I'll let you know if it works, though from all accounts it could take a couple of months. This pain is so constant, if it eases there can be no other reason!

Melanie,

I wonder how you have got on with the glucosamine, after several months. The Ma has OA and other joint problems. She takes cod liver oil capsules and paracetamol as a pain-killer. She's not supposed to take ibuprofen (though occasionally does) as she has COPD and has been warned off it.

Have I understood correctly that you need to take Gluc. for a month or so before it possibly starts to have any effect?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I've supplemented with it in the past as it is very popular with a lot of athletes. I think the problem is that I'm not an athlete :cheesy:, but I partake in rugby and weight lifting and I'm not as young as I used to be.

I don't think I'm convinced it has any effect. But if I'm on ordering protein or creatine, I'll add it in if it isn't too expensive.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there, thats all I am aware of. For guys who do weights constantly and never take time to rest for the injuries to heal, there does seem to be a following for glucosamine. I think it is more an insurance/placebo than anything else. I'm not being entirely rational by taking it, but it's an educated choice I can afford and I cannot see any possible adverse side effects. I'll keep reading anything I find about it though.

I'm not so enamoured with it being marketed towards the chronically ill and the elderly, I'd rather there was some really solid evidence to back it up in that market.

[bindeweede]

I've supplemented with it in the past as it is very popular with a lot of athletes. I think the problem is that I'm not an athlete :cheesy:, but I partake in rugby and weight lifting and I'm not as young as I used to be.

I don't think I'm convinced it has any effect. But if I'm on ordering protein or creatine, I'll add it in if it isn't too expensive.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there, thats all I am aware of. For guys who do weights constantly and never take time to rest for the injuries to heal, there does seem to be a following for glucosamine. I think it is more an insurance/placebo than anything else. I'm not being entirely rational by taking it, but it's an educated choice I can afford and I cannot see any possible adverse side effects. I'll keep reading anything I find about it though.

I'm not so enamoured with it being marketed towards the chronically ill and the elderly, I'd rather there was some really solid evidence to back it up in that market.

Having done just a little bit of research, gluc. hcl is supposed to be better than the sulphate, and the vegetarian variety even better. Of course, these cost quite a bit more. The best deal on the sulphate I've found so far is 360 tabs of 1000mg at £8.39.

[brianp]

It's, currently, supported by evidence so well worth a try IMO. O0

I went to a lecture recently at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Gateshead given by a consultant from the hospital's Rheumatology Dept, and he suggested that everyone suffering from osteoarthritis should try glucosamine for two months, taking at least 1 gram (1000 mg) per day. Some people, he said, would get no benefit at all and they should discontinue it after the two months, but many would notice some degree of improvement and they could take it permanently. He stressed that glucosamine had very few side effects and no known interactions with other medications.

I suffer from osteoarthritis in both hips so I've been tempted to try glucosamine, but I'm always reluctant to self-medicate except for pain killers on occasion. Anyway I had to see my GP this (Friday) morning on another matter so I mentioned my hip problems and asked her what she thought about glucosamine. She too was enthusiastic, again suggesting I try it for two months - though she didn't offer to give me a prescription.

So I bought some orange-flavoured 'Liquid Glucosamine' this afternoon for just over £8 - enough for 50 days medication at about 1.5 grams (1500 mg) per day. I've had my first dose, not at all unpleasant, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who'll eventually notice an improvement.

[bindeweede]

I went to a lecture recently at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Gateshead given by a consultant from the hospital's Rheumatology Dept, and he suggested that everyone suffering from osteoarthritis should try glucosamine for two months, taking at least 1 gram (1000 mg) per day. Some people, he said, would get no benefit at all and they should discontinue it after the two months, but many would notice some degree of improvement and they could take it permanently. He stressed that glucosamine had very few side effects and no known interactions with other medications.

I suffer from osteoarthritis in both hips so I've been tempted to try glucosamine, but I'm always reluctant to self-medicate except for pain killers on occasion. Anyway I had to see my GP this (Friday) morning on another matter so I mentioned my hip problems and asked her what she thought about glucosamine. She too was enthusiastic, again suggesting I try it for two months - though she didn't offer to give me a prescription.

So I bought some orange-flavoured 'Liquid Glucosamine' this afternoon for just over £8 - enough for 50 days medication at about 1.5 grams (1500 mg) per day. I've had my first dose, not at all unpleasant, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who'll eventually notice an improvement.

Thanks for that. It does sound that it is at least worth a try.

I've looked round the internet for the liquid gluc you mentioned, but the best I could find was a 600ml bottle for £9.95 - that is 40 days' supply. But it is the HCl verson which is supposed to have a higher percentage of the active ingredient. It's coming from Guernsey, so no VAT and free p&p.

I hope you find it has some beneficial effect. And the Ma too!

Wonder if is any good for tinnitus:ponder:.

[brianp]

Thanks for that. It does sound that it is at least worth a try


I hope you find it has some beneficial effect. And the Ma too!

Wonder if is any good for tinnitus:ponder:.

And good luck to you too. O0 We should all report back here after a couple of months.

[brianp]

I've looked round the internet for the liquid gluc you mentioned, but the best I could find was a 600ml bottle for £9.95 - that is 40 days' supply. But it is the HCl verson which is supposed to have a higher percentage of the active ingredient. It's coming from Guernsey, so no VAT and free p&p.

The one I'm taking is from a York firm called Power Health - their website lists the product as "Glucosamine Liquid 500ml - type: Orange" on

http://tinyurl.com/29rtvk £8.99 + £1.74 p&p

£2 more than I paid in a health-food shop, but not too bad.

[bindeweede]

And good luck to you too. O0 We should all report back here after a couple of months.

Yes, another good idea. Melanie was the original poster, and I for one would be very interested to read anything she might be able to say about how she has got on with glucosamine. I hope she comes across the latest posts.

[bindeweede]

I've supplemented with it in the past as it is very popular with a lot of athletes. I think the problem is that I'm not an athlete :cheesy:, but I partake in rugby and weight lifting and I'm not as young as I used to be.

I don't think I'm convinced it has any effect. But if I'm on ordering protein or creatine, I'll add it in if it isn't too expensive.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there, thats all I am aware of. For guys who do weights constantly and never take time to rest for the injuries to heal, there does seem to be a following for glucosamine. I think it is more an insurance/placebo than anything else. I'm not being entirely rational by taking it, but it's an educated choice I can afford and I cannot see any possible adverse side effects. I'll keep reading anything I find about it though.

I'm not so enamoured with it being marketed towards the chronically ill and the elderly, I'd rather there was some really solid evidence to back it up in that market.

OK, not a totally serious reply, but.....I am not as young...etc, but my weight-lifting consists of lifting bottles of wine from the shelves of the wine department in Waitrose.

I do have a cross-exerciser thingy - don't know if that is the correct term - and I look at it quite regularly:smiley:.

[Mongrel]

I do have a cross-exerciser thingy - don't know if that is the correct term - and I look at it quite regularly:smiley:.


Well as long as you get tired while you're doing it I'm sure it's doing you the world of good ;D

[brettdbass]

More anecdotal stuff here.
I've been taking DEVA glucosamine for a couple or three years now.
I was told some time ago that I may have early onset arthritis and was prescribed VIOXX (now banned) and COPROXAMOL (also now banned). They worked for the pain, but didn't cure the problem.
A little physio helped control the back pain but I still had problems in my right elbow.

I discovered the vegan glucosamine and thought it would be worth trying and I was not disappointed. After a month or so I noticed an easing in my back generally, more flexibility. Without even realising it, my elbow had cleared up too.

That was all well and good and I kept it going for about 3 more months, but then I just slipped out of the habit. It didn't take more than a fortnight for my back to seize. About a week after restarting the glucosamine, I was up and running again.
Still not scientific evidence, I know, but I can tell you that this pattern of stopping->freezing->restarting->relief happened many times over in the ensuing years.

I now take the above product with added MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) and CMO (Cetyl Myristoleate). I don't know how these other bits are supposed to work exactly, but they certainly relieve my pain even better than before and I can't ask for more than that.

[wooo_oops]

My doctor has just (in the last week) recommended it to me for pain and stiffness in my creaky bits. I asked him if it was worth it, he said it's been used in tests on damaged cartilage+ inflammation in knees with a positive outcome, but generally for any joints he reckons it's definitely worth a go. He didn't prescribe it though. It's the first time he's recommended it although I've seen him before about the 'arthur'.

Otherwise he says, I'm just getting old and gotta put up with it...:'(

[bindeweede]

Well, this suggests glucosamine is no better than a placebo. But


But representatives of the supplement industry disagree, with one manufacturer saying the researchers may have focused on people too early in the arthritic process.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/news/20080218/glucosamine-no-help-for-hip-arthritis

[JJM]

Well, this suggests glucosamine is no better than a placebo. But {snip} (http://arthritis.webmd.com/news/20080218/glucosamine-no-help-for-hip-arthritis)See this:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=27

One thing is certain, the amount of glucosamine in the "supplements" is less than 1% of that already present in the body. If you add a teaspoon of gasoline to your car's tank, it will not make a significant difference in how far you can drive on a tank of gas; similarly, the added glucosamine is insignificant.

[dee]

I give it to my dog for her creaky bits and it seems to be working along with the yellow liquid from the vets - she now sneaks onto the bed and night and couldn't do that 2 months ago. :undecided:

[JJM]

I give it to my dog for her creaky bits and it seems to be working along with the yellow liquid from the vets - she now sneaks onto the bed and night and couldn't do that 2 months ago. :undecided:Anecdote is not a reason to arrive at a conclusion, it may be a reason to perform a controlled study. Your anecdote is subject to wishful thinking, confirmation bias and the natural ebb-and-flow of many chronic problems. I suggest that you read the science-based medicine post to which I linked.

[dee]

Anecdote is not a reason to arrive at a conclusion, it may be a reason to perform a controlled study. Your anecdote is subject to wishful thinking, confirmation bias and the natural ebb-and-flow of many chronic problems. I suggest that you read the science-based medicine post to which I linked.

The practice vet that I see has had a few success stories with dogs on other medication used in conjuction with glucosamine. I just pointed out that in my dogs case it has seems to have made a difference.

Yes it may not work on every dog, but I and others that know her have generally seen her become more active since she has been taking it (500mg a day).

[JJM]

The practice vet that I see has had a few success stories with dogs on other medication used in conjuction with glucosamine. I just pointed out that in my dogs case it has seems to have made a difference.

Yes it may not work on every dog, but I and others that know her have generally seen her become more active since she has been taking it (500mg a day).You are still talking about anecdotes. It may seem to have made a difference on your dog. I am sorry to say that many decades in research has persuaded me to say to you, and your vet, you could still be mistaken. The data suggests that you are.

Why do I care? I dislike seeing anyone being taken advantage of. In this case, the companies that are selling you this material have not proven the effectiveness of the product.

For my part, I have raised snakes, rabbits, cats, dogs, fish, mice, and rats; and I have an active bird-feeder outside. I understand your concerns. I think, once again, that you are being misled (not by your vet); but by a marketing campaign that is fooling both of you. It would not be the first time.

[dee]

I think, once again, that you are being misled (not by your vet); but by a marketing campaign that is fooling both of you. It would not be the first time.

Perhaps I am but I am still going to continue giving it to her along with her cod liver oil capsules as they are doing her no harm.

[JJM]

Perhaps I am but I am still going to continue giving it to her along with her cod liver oil capsules as they are doing her no harm.Of course. Why let the facts get in the way?

Seriously, if you have money to waste- by all means, do so. The charlatans will love you for it. It's nice to be loved.

[dee]

Of course. Why let the facts get in the way?

Seriously, if you have money to waste- by all means, do so. The charlatans will love you for it. It's nice to be loved.

I do not have money to waste, but she is my dog and there is a member on here that knows just how much exactly she means to me If it means me spending my life savings on her then so be it, I would do it without hesitation, and yes she is loved - more that you'll ever know!!!

[JJM]

More on glucosamine
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=51

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

As mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I've tried taking it before in the past. To be honest, I am far from convinced it has any benefit, but I have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence, particularly from the athletic world. The fairly low cost, and the apparant lack of side effects allowed me to try it.

The length of time is takes to have an effect rings alarm bells with me, because in that period it is quite likely that the body heals significantly anyway.

Incidentally, I've also tried echinacea in the past, primarily again because of the low cost and the amount of anecdotal evidence. Having read commentary on research in the last couple of years on it's effectiveness, I wouldn't bother now. Again, my problem with trying to understand it's effectiveness, is how difficult it is to evalute how much it shortens a cold by - because who can predict how long a cold lasts anyway, and when it is completely gone. So taking a day of a cold by using echinacea seems pretty impossible to measure in my opinion.

Are my actions always rational? Not really.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

More on glucosamine
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=51

One thing I would argue that link does show, is that it can take time for the quality research to come through.

Of course we also know that once scientific research comes to a conclusion (such as the one Glucosamine research is tending to), that it will have little effect on the marketing and availability of such supplements. Once they gain a reputation, science is not very good at removing it.

[JJM]

I do not have money to waste, but she is my dog and there is a member on here that knows just how much exactly she means to me If it means me spending my life savings on her then so be it, I would do it without hesitation, and yes she is loved - more that you'll ever know!!!I apologize for being so flip. A more measured reply would have been that dubious treatments that do not strain the budget are okay, if they make one feel better. I deplore the financial drain by quacks; but I understand the desperation of consumers. I wish you the best.

[JJM]

{snip} Incidentally, I've also tried echinacea in the past, primarily again because of the low cost and the amount of anecdotal evidence. Having read commentary on research in the last couple of years on it's effectiveness, I wouldn't bother now. Again, my problem with trying to understand it's effectiveness, is how difficult it is to evalute how much it shortens a cold by - because who can predict how long a cold lasts anyway, and when it is completely gone. {snip}Those are important points. Many viruses give rise to the symptoms we call "the cold." Thus, the course of the disease is variable, most studies are flawed by that lack of control.