Hunt ghosts from your PC

[Nicky]

:o

http://www.supermeters.myzen.co.uk/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=3

[tkingdoll]

£179.00!!!!!!

[vbloke]

They're mounting an EMF meter on a laptop?

Surely a laptop would emit quite a large amount of EM radiation and interfere with the readings?

I like the
Videos can be edited for you by the software

which I took to mean:

"Ghosts can be edited into your video for you by the software"

[Dr B]

You can always spot a pseudo-site when there are no figures / spec for the machines and sensors they claim 'measures stuff'

No sensitivity data, sample rate, noise levels, frequency weighting if there is any, etc.....so basically - you dont know what your measuring or how reliable your measurements are. >:D

Now, thats not science. >:(

[wollery]

I'd love to see the source code for this thing. I wouldn't put it past these people to add random positive readings! ::)

[Jocky]

This system is not prone to “Human Error” will not miss anything.

Computer software which is not prone to user error?? It should qualify for Randi's million!


Be ahead of the crowd, this will set you aside from amateur unprofessional groups, gaining you further credit with clients and venues.

Aha, there's the real selling point. Pose value, and a gizmo with which to baffle the credulous ::)

[Nicky]

If groups are wanting to spend that kind of money, invest it in some decent public liability insurance or bespoke ethics training ..

[Dr B]

Its the 'perception of doing science' rather than the actual doing of science that concerns me.

[Credible_source]

I think some of you have missed the point here, and been too sceptical. I am lead to believe the software does not modify video it condenses hours of video footage to the points where the sensors have been tripped. Does this make sense now? i think before you criticise the software you should review it first...isn't that how you become credible in your arguments. O0

[Howlin Shaolin]

Hey, I was a participant in the Guinness World Record Ghost Hunt, on Tuesday at Alton Towers, Guess What!.... 850 odd "believers!" took part in the Psychological “monitoring/experiment” run by Derby Uni. I saw some measuring stuff in each room , it was reading EMF, temp…. etc all wired into a laptop. From what I saw with my Sceptical goggles on, you cannot dispute the environmental logging off the event as it looked to me like sound science, simple effective logging… however the participants were all very excited or cold and a few were expecting to be thrilled or entertained, rather than being scientifically monitored.

As a fee paying sceptic I got sent this link after the event , and I eagerly wait for my Guinness World Record Breaking Certificate.


WORLD RECORD SMASHED AT THE WORLD’S BIGGEST GHOST HUNT
Fright Nights would like to thank all the attendees of the World’s Biggest Ghost Hunt event for helping smash the world record for the “The most systematic and scientific study of an alleged haunted location”. The previous record was 250 people and our new record now stands at approximately 840!

The standards for the world record were originally set by Professor Richard Wiseman of Hertfordshire University and is based on the observa tions of the attendees as they walk from room to room. To break the record, Derby University had to follow the strict guidelines set by the original attempt and then relay those same standards to the “Hex” ride. Throughout the experiment we had to augment a strict no talking policy (to ensure there was no conferring) and no photography so that lighting and emf levels were not affected.

Supermeters successfully provided their Paranormal PC system to record air temperature, ionisation, humidity, light and sound levels, magnet and electric fields in every room. The Paranormal PC system has provided statistics for the whole night so it can be crossed referenced with attendee’s experiences.

There were a large number of experiences reported by attendees. In Room 1 many people reported feelings of oppression, feeling drained of energy, feeling sick, hearing or seeing things down the far end towards the main door. One group heard footsteps which all 3 observers in the room heard too.

In Room 2 a large amount of people put that they felt really sad and there was multiple reports of an unusual smell. Room 3 people saw shadowy figures or felt they were being watched.

In all rooms there are a large number of reports of drops in temperature and feeling sick, dizzy or having a headac he. There were also reports of being touched, a hand being held, hair being pulled, an old lady in red was reported to have been seen by one group.

There is an incredible amount of data still to be processed and this is due to take several months to analyse and ultimately produce a report. As soon as Dr Rebecca Knibb of Derby University completes this report, we will ensure that all attendees will be notified of links or download areas.

On the confirmation of breaking the world record by the Guinness World Record organisation a certificate of participation will be made available.
Links:
Paranormal PC - www.supermeters.co.uk (http://www.supermeters.co.uk)
Centre for Psychological Research in Human Behaviour - http://ibs.derby.ac.uk/~Rebecca/centre/index.html (http://ibs.derby.ac.uk/~Rebecca/centre/index.html)

[Equalizer]

All,

I am very disappointed that most people have slammed the ParanormalPC software and hardware without either contacting Supermeters UK to ask for specifications or trying to find out if anyone is using the ParanormalPC software and hardware. :(

After all who has mega bucks to shell out for expensive equipment? When other priorities such as bringing up a family or paying off a huge mortgage etc takes most of the amateur investigators hard earned cash each week or month.

Even the comment regarding source code is unprofessional, instead of whining and picking faults with the equipment on a forum, why don't someone take some initiative and put the questions and queries to Supermeters UK themselves.

I see no harm in being a sceptic, however I do see harm in criticising. Especially when no further data has been acquired from a credible source, perhaps being too sceptical can have it's own disadvantages?

[Howlin Shaolin]

Being a Sceptic is like being a “Control”, sometimes the voice of reason, sometimes not, which ever the case, If you define yourself as a sceptic and do not account for your comments, then you are of no value to the sceptical community as the last thing it needs is OPINION MASQUERADING AS FACT as being used in this thread previously.

I’m am sure that when “the armature” Paranormal clubs, start using that ParanormalPC stuff there will be a wealth of evidentiary findings to be added to the pool of available knowledge, afterall a well recorded NULL result is just as good as REAL reading, especially valuable when dealing with MEDIUMS.

vbloke, I saw that the meter gadgets at Alton Towers all had calibration dials, The group I was in someone did not turn off their mobile phone, and when it rang a big spike appeared on some moving graph plot on the screen, I was courteously asked to move back ( I think my intrest in gadgets was obvious and I needed to concentrate on the questionnaire and ambiance for the experiment).

[Equalizer]

Being a Sceptic is like being a “Control”, sometimes the voice of reason, sometimes not, which ever the case, If you define yourself as a sceptic and do not account for your comments, then you are of no value to the sceptical community as the last thing it needs is OPINION MASQUERADING AS FACT as being used in this thread previously.

I’m am sure that when “the armature” Paranormal clubs, start using that ParanormalPC stuff there will be a wealth of evidentiary findings to be added to the pool of available knowledge, afterall a well recorded NULL result is just as good as REAL reading, especially valuable when dealing with MEDIUMS.

vbloke, I saw that the meter gadgets at Alton Towers all had calibration dials, The group I was in someone did not turn off their mobile phone, and when it rang a big spike appeared on some moving graph plot on the screen, I was courteously asked to move back ( I think my intrest in gadgets was obvious and I needed to concentrate on the questionnaire and ambiance for the experiment).



Well said Howlin Shaolin.

[Admin]

Welcome to you new guys.

I've only had a quick, cursory look at the website but it is quite obvious that these products are aimed at the 'ghost hunter' types who are basically thrill seekers.

The idea of having computer equipment only serves to give a false air of legitimacy to what they're doing. Sure there's a market for this stuff, but science it ain't.

Let's see it for what it is. ;)

Clever marketing, yes. Real science, no.

[Araneus]

Wow, the shills are out in force, aren't they?

[Howlin Shaolin]

Is there a list of categorization of "TYPES" and the coupling of "Thrill seeker" and ghost hunting, which is synonym of "paranormal investigation" which is being carried out across the country in higher learning universities by psychologists. There must be a hard and fast definitions from which get quoted “Ghost Hunter = thrill seeker” or is that a private description being used as an opinion.

The idea that computer equipment adds legitimacy, well I ask you …what is legitimate, writing on paper with a pencil, writing in sand with a stick, having data logged in reports by a computer…. Please explain the “Legitimacy” of what you talk John.

I do Understand your comment on Real Science and maybe this environmental logging has been around for years and has a track record, and the fact that you don’t have to have any formal grounding in any scientific or engineering disciplines to produce credible evidence by using accessible technology on mobile devices. Lets face It, Microsoft and its work bringing web site creation from the dominion of the graphic designers, to the dominion of the 10 year olds….isn’t that what’s happening here, from the universities to the shed, if both directions measure the temperature of a room at 23.5 degrees its not down to clever marketing… you can’t dispute the evidence.

The general availability of any technology to the masses will put the existing authorities to rigor…. and this ParanormalPC stuff looks like its environmental logging with some Paranormal Spin and its temperature reading just as valid as any thermometer.

[Howlin Shaolin]

The Alton Towers Experiment I took part in ...

Was it science ...
well as found on this site: @

http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=pseudoscience.php

In science, observations are made, data are gathered, a hypothesis is formed, testing is done and if the hypothesis is accepted, a theory (provisional conclusion) is formulated. If any evidence comes to light that invalidates the conclusion, the conclusion will be rejected and a replacement theory sought.
I think it fits the bill as science, John can you clarify from your work in defining Science etc.. Did what I took part in pass as science?

[Mongrel]

Lets face It, Microsoft and its work bringing web site creation from the dominion of the graphic designers, to the dominion of the 10 year olds….isn’t that what’s happening here, from the universities to the shed, if both directions measure the temperature of a room at 23.5 degrees its not down to clever marketing… you can’t dispute the evidence.


But you can dispute the the uses it's put to and the Hypotheses thereof.

If both sets of equipment measured temperatures of 23.5 (for example) - how and why is that relevant\not relevant. So the EMF meter buried the needle - does that mean ghosts or that the person standing next to you has just recieved a text?
if certain types of phenomenon cause a room to go cold or set an EMF meter buzzing then they should be working out how it can do it and where's the energy. Not wave a gizmo with blinking lights in peoples faces shouting "Look - the Blinkenlights means ghosts are real"


The reason that (IMO) 'paranormalists' use these tools is to add an air of legitimacy to a piece of shaky research that was discounted by mainstream science years ago.

[Equalizer]

Welcome to you new guys.

I've only had a quick, cursory look at the website but it is quite obvious that these products are aimed at the 'ghost hunter' types who are basically thrill seekers.

The idea of having computer equipment only serves to give a false air of legitimacy to what they're doing. Sure there's a market for this stuff, but science it ain't.

Let's see it for what it is. ;)

Clever marketing, yes. Real science, no.


So I gather from your comments John that real scientists do not use computer software or hardware for any type of monitoring, logging or data gathering? We have come a long way with technical advancements over the last 30 years or so, I have yet to meet a scientist who does not use a computer or software as part of their research.

Again I totally agree with the statements of Howlin Shaolin.

Do sceptics ever listen to people from outside their frame work or are sceptics just so narrow minded that there is only room for their own opinions and ideas?

Do the academic sceptics scoff at and ignore the opinions of people who do not come from an academic background?

So would the academic sceptic completely ignore the ideas that come from electronic engineers and computer programmers? I think not since most of the technological breakthroughs come from these very same people, so let's see how many of you academic sceptics did not use a computer and software to comment on this forum?

Can't see many hands yet. >:D

[Mongrel]

The Alton Towers Experiment I took part in ...

Was it science ...
well as found on this site: @

http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=pseudoscience.php

In science, observations are made, data are gathered, a hypothesis is formed, testing is done and if the hypothesis is accepted, a theory (provisional conclusion) is formulated. If any evidence comes to light that invalidates the conclusion, the conclusion will be rejected and a replacement theory sought.
I think it fits the bill as science, John can you clarify from your work in defining Science etc.. Did what I took part in pass as science?




Well the stuff that sprang right out was;
The idea is aimed directly at the public. -Check
Ideas that are non-testable. - See my post above.
Anecdotes as evidence - yep
Lack of explicit mechanisms - Hell yeah

Oh, and you missed out the next couple of lines - In pseudoscience, they begin with a solid conclusion (such as 'homeopathy works Ghosts exist'), form theories as to why it works, collect data that support the conclusion and reject or explain away data that doesn't; which inevitably results in the conclusion being confirmed. With this system, no evidence is capable of contradicting the conclusion.

[Mongrel]

So I gather from your comments John that real scientists do not use computer software or hardware for any type of monitoring, logging or data gathering? We have come a long way with technical advancements over the last 30 years or so, I have yet to meet a scientist who does not use a computer or software as part of their research.
Nice strawman you've built yourself there O0

The problem at hand is that it's a data gathering device, of unknown accuracy, that's sold to to people who have little clue what to do with the resultant data. For all the good it does I may as well declare that the ambient fijiits in my room are up to 75 MiliZathras and I've got the lights and dials to prove it.


Again I totally agree with the statements of Howlin Shaolin.

I'm sensing a pattern here ::)


Do sceptics ever listen to people from outside their frame work or are sceptics just so narrow minded that there is only room for their own opinions and ideas?

Yes, we're happy to listen to solid evidence


Do the academic sceptics scoff at and ignore the opinions of people who do not come from an academic background?

I'm not an academic, does that mean I'm not allowed to scoff? And the reason that I do listen to academics, in their field, is that they've bothered to learn more than me. I'm not saying you require letters after your name to come up with something astounding but when you do I will look to the relevant people to explain how valid the hypothesis is.


So would the academic sceptic completely ignore the ideas that come from electronic engineers and computer programmers? I think not since most of the technological breakthroughs come from these very same people, so let's see how many of you academic sceptics did not use a computer and software to comment on this forum?

Strawman the Return. No one is denying that computer measurement tools are used. But would you let a thousand random people loose at Cern for an evening, let them play with the big toys and call it science? Anyone can play with data gathering equipment but doing 'science' with it is something else


Can't see many hands yet. >:D

That's only 'cos mine is making rude gestures :P

Edit:

One final thought. The concept of ghosts and spirits has probably been around ever since the first proto human feared death. Some of the greatest applications of science have been carried out in the past 100 years or so; Gene manipulation, nuclear energy (in whatever form), flight and space travel, crude particle manipulation. Hell, just this past week I've seen stories for cloned human livers and viable, practical commercial uses for T-Rays.
What has paranormal science got to put on it's pedestal? All I can see is they've evolved to digital bullshit...oh, and the Cottingley fairies were definitely fake.

[Araneus]

isn’t that what’s happening here, from the universities to the shed, if both directions measure the temperature of a room at 23.5 degrees its not down to clever marketing… you can’t dispute the evidence.

It is of no relevance whether than machinery is accurate at measuring EMF or temperature because there is no valid scientific theory that links EMF or temperature to the presence of ghosts.

[Araneus]

So I gather from your comments John that real scientists do not use computer software or hardware for any type of monitoring, logging or data gathering? We have come a long way with technical advancements over the last 30 years or so, I have yet to meet a scientist who does not use a computer or software as part of their research.

I see nothing in John's comments which suggest he believes this. You might want to just comment on what is actually said, rather than pretending somebody said something stupid so you can argue against it more easily (the so-called Straw Man).


Do sceptics ever listen to people from outside their frame work or are sceptics just so narrow minded that there is only room for their own opinions and ideas?
Do the academic sceptics scoff at and ignore the opinions of people who do not come from an academic background?

Typical anti-skeptic gibberish. If you have a paranormal hypothesis, you have to present credible evidence for it. You don't get to complain about people being "narrow-minded" just because they won't accept your ideas without good reason.

[Equalizer]

Araneus and Mongrel,

I have asked logical questions without any reference to the Paranormal, obviously you have stated that you are not academics which shows clearly in your replies and offensive behaviour. Perhaps you need to consult Dr B as he is a qualified psychologist\ Nuero Scientist as he will be able to pinpoint your aggressive behaviour and use of bad language, this is obviously a brain dieorder that he most likely has dealt with in the past.

I am sure there is a breach of forum rules here concerning the use of bad language, nice straw men you have made yourselves.

[Mongrel]

Araneus and Mongrel,

I have asked logical questions without any reference to the Paranormal, obviously you have stated that you are not academics which shows clearly in your replies and offensive behaviour. Perhaps you need to consult Dr B as he is a qualified psychologist\ Nuero Scientist as he will be able to pinpoint your aggressive behaviour and use of bad language, this is obviously a brain dieorder that he most likely has dealt with in the past.

I am sure there is a breach of forum rules here concerning the use of bad language, nice straw men you have made yourselves.


Ohhh - nice moral high ground you got there. How's about a rebuttal instead?

Also you may want to check your definition of strawman - your's seems to be faulty.

BTW - You should check the 'local' forum rules before you cry foul play O0

[Araneus]

I have asked logical questions without any reference to the Paranormal, obviously you have stated that you are not academics which shows clearly in your replies and offensive behaviour. Perhaps you need to consult Dr B as he is a qualified psychologist\ Nuero Scientist as he will be able to pinpoint your aggressive behaviour and use of bad language, this is obviously a brain dieorder that he most likely has dealt with in the past.
I am sure there is a breach of forum rules here concerning the use of bad language, nice straw men you have made yourselves.

Nobody has used any bad language here, unless (like many believers) you consider questioning of your position to be offensive.

I note amongst all of the browbeating and cries of oppression, the one thing that is starkly lacking from your (or your friends') posts is anything resembling a reasoned explanation of the value of this "machine" and its relevance to investigation of the paranormal.

[Equalizer]

I am sure there is a breach of forum rules here concerning the use of bad language, nice straw men you have made yourselves.

Nobody has used any bad language here, unless (like many believers) you consider questioning of your position to be offensive.

I note amongst all of the browbeating and cries of oppression, the one thing that is starkly lacking from your (or your friends') posts is anything resembling a reasoned explanation of the value of this "machine" and its relevance to investigation of the paranormal.


Araneus, you have quite obviously not read any of the last posts made on this forum. Here you will find what I am referring to regarding bad language.

Again your accusations regarding the comment I am a believer is totally unfounded and very unprofessional in your assumptions, why don't you contact Supermeters UK for the specs yourself.

[Howlin Shaolin]

On the issue of Forums and "bad language", I think latitude has to prevail, and grammar and syntax exist in differing quantities and your mastery of unambiguous prose is dependant on education and each thread will find its level.

On the issue of the validity of anything quoted from the source “Dr B” on evidence, that has to excluded as to be a qualified psychologist means you cannot clinically accept evidence. (Straw man - check mate?)

[Howlin Shaolin]

Given that there is Homeopathy, why is there no Homopathic heroin, Or Homeopathic Crack, always puzzeled me that (given that the water memory theory holds up).

[Mongrel]

I am sure there is a breach of forum rules here concerning the use of bad language, nice straw men you have made yourselves.

Nobody has used any bad language here, unless (like many believers) you consider questioning of your position to be offensive.

I note amongst all of the browbeating and cries of oppression, the one thing that is starkly lacking from your (or your friends') posts is anything resembling a reasoned explanation of the value of this "machine" and its relevance to investigation of the paranormal.


Araneus, you have quite obviously not read any of the last posts made on this forum. Here you will find what I am referring to regarding bad language.

Again your accusations regarding the comment I am a believer is totally unfounded and very unprofessional in your assumptions, why don't you contact Supermeters UK for the specs yourself.
Well to answer your question. The package is £19.99 and the microphone looks like a generic PC microphone worth a little over a fiver. I'm dubious that they don't give technical specs on the hardware, even PC World do and they're selling to the technical illiterati. If I was looking for any serious bits of specialised kit I'd want to know damn sure what it was capable of before I brought it and everywhere I go to that sells my specialist bits has all the specs up front and in the catalogue\web-site.

A second reason is that they try really hard to make claims without making claims. (my bolding)

Wireless Thermometer (http://www.supermeters.myzen.co.uk/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=17)
It is believed that a sudden drop in temperature may be due to a spirit about to appear, as it is widely believed that the ghost will draw energy IE heat from the air in order to have the energy to appear etc.

Negative Ion meters (http://www.supermeters.myzen.co.uk/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=19)
It is widely believed that when a ghost/spirit/ etc is about to make an apparition, that a certain amount of energy is taken from the surrounding environment. This meter will measure the change in static or positive or negative ions in the air. This is a new way of measuring paranormal activity and is believed to measure residual energy produced by the spirits. .

I'll ask again - what has paranormal 'science' brought to the table in the past hundred or so years?

[Mongrel]

On the issue of Forums and "bad language", I think latitude has to prevail, and grammar and syntax exist in differing quantities and your mastery of unambiguous prose is dependant on education and each thread will find its level.

On the issue of the validity of anything quoted from the source “Dr B” on evidence, that has to excluded as to be a qualified psychologist means you cannot clinically accept evidence. (Straw man - check mate?)


Erm - clarification please, something seems to have got jumbled up.


Given that there is Homeopathy, why is there no Homopathic heroin, Or Homeopathic Crack, always puzzeled me that (given that the water memory theory holds up).

Got any evidence for Water memory Theory? Physics and Chemistry concur that's it an absolute steaming pile....

[Dr B]

Did someone mention my name? :ponder:

[Richard King]

The term "ghost" covers a multitude of causes of such perceptions.

"Hunting" for "ghosts" with the range of instrumention currently in general use, plus the level of knowledge, let alone experience, strikes me, considering the nature of what is involved, as about as fruitful as someone from the early nineteenth century searching for nuclear devices with a barometer.

[Mongrel]

Did someone mention my name? :ponder:


Apparently you're wanted (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/index.php/topic,575.msg8205.html#msg8205) for a consult :P

[Admin]

The Alton Towers Experiment I took part in ...

Was it science ...
well as found on this site: @

http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=pseudoscience.php

In science, observations are made, data are gathered, a hypothesis is formed, testing is done and if the hypothesis is accepted, a theory (provisional conclusion) is formulated. If any evidence comes to light that invalidates the conclusion, the conclusion will be rejected and a replacement theory sought.
I think it fits the bill as science, John can you clarify from your work in defining Science etc.. Did what I took part in pass as science?


I don't know about the Alton Towers experiment so I can't answer the question.

Funny you should quote the pseudoscience article however. Did you see the next paragraph?

<blockquote>Challenging the accepted dogma is often considered a hostile act; such challenges will be fought off with attacks on the critic's character or motives rather than embraced as a way of testing claims as in real science. As a consequence, the same arguments and counter-arguments are seen time and again: scientists give reasons why the practise is a pseudoscience; the pseudoscientists respond with excuses and attacks on scientists and/or science itself.</blockquote>
Is it merely a coincidence that no-one has put forward the scientific case for these 'paranormal detection kits' and have concentrated on attacking their critics' characters and motives?

I'd be interested to know how the EVP detector gives "guaranteed results" for example.

[Howlin Shaolin]

Freudian Frog test :liar: :liar: :ghost:
(the observation of this will challenge your stance on how to be objective ) or make you laugh,

Am I a “Thrill seeking” Psychologist ,perchance for testing you all with this.

Parapsychology must be a fantastic domain to work in.




edit: removed inappropriate attached image.

[Admin]

So this is how the Fitton family, who sell the paranormal investigation kits, market themselves!

Perhaps UKS should do a feature on these products and evaluate their real worth. ;)

[Dr B]

Looks to me like their busted.....and they aint no ghosts >:D >:D

[Dr B]

I think some of you have missed the point here, and been too sceptical. I am lead to believe the software does not modify video it condenses hours of video footage to the points where the sensors have been tripped. Does this make sense now? i think before you criticise the software you should review it first...isn't that how you become credible in your arguments. O0


It may be we criticise because we have seen it all before - you do not seemed to have considered that possibility in your sweeping statements. O0

[Dr B]

Hey, I was a participant in the Guinness World Record Ghost Hunt, on Tuesday at Alton Towers, Guess What!.... 850 odd "believers!" took part in the Psychological “monitoring/experiment” run by Derby Uni. I saw some measuring stuff in each room , it was reading EMF, temp…. etc all wired into a laptop. From what I saw with my Sceptical goggles on, you cannot dispute the environmental logging off the event as it looked to me like sound science, simple effective logging .

Could you answer some questions for me. How was temperature being measured? Was it temperature, wet-bulb temperature, a heat index, or what? Also, what is the error level in the temperature sensor. Most common ones have an error level of 1 - 1.5 degree C which means all these 'significant' temp drops of less than this are nothing but error. However, i am sure you can clean that up for us as you seem convinced it was good science.

As for the EMFs, how were these being measured? Was it done by meters or sensors? What was their spec? Were they measuring amplitude, frequency, etc? How did they shield their laptops from the meters? What baselines were done?

So you see, unless we have a detailed understanding of these concepts - logging data can mean nothing - because you dont know what you are logging or why. I personally would not say its science - but entertainment. However, I have no problem with that as it could be used as a form of science education providing it is done properly. However, not good science from the look of it - but your answers to my questions may change my view. O0

[Dr B]

All,

I am very disappointed that most people have slammed the ParanormalPC software and hardware without either contacting Supermeters UK to ask for specifications or trying to find out if anyone is using the ParanormalPC software and hardware.

You make my point for me here. You see, the full spec should be given on the website. The fact it is not, is worrying. We need to know, sensitivity, noise level, linearity, frequency response, frequency weighting (if any), sample rates, DSP parameters, and so on. Are the devices calibrated - and if so - how? What is the error level? Are they calibrated to NIST standards (or equivalent). If they were I imagine you would be shouting this from the roof tops - as you dont i remain skeptical - but up for convincing either way.


After all who has mega bucks to shell out for expensive equipment?

Are you saying poverty is an excuse for bad science?



I see no harm in being a sceptic, however I do see harm in criticising. Especially when no further data has been acquired from a credible source, perhaps being too sceptical can have it's own disadvantages?


No one here is too skpetical - so please indulge us and answer the questions. O0 I ask you as a fellow researcher who is also fascinated by strange phenomena.

[Dr B]

Being a Sceptic is like being a “Control”, sometimes the voice of reason, sometimes not, which ever the case, If you define yourself as a sceptic and do not account for your comments, then you are of no value to the sceptical community as the last thing it needs is

Everyone in this thread of a skeptical inclination has just posted their views and backed it up - while also asking for further information (well I have anyway). That information is still not forthcoming.

There is no opinion masquarading as fact here - I have asked for more detail - there is none. How do you know what you are measuring with a device where no spec is given? That is a factual question.


I’m am sure that when “the armature” Paranormal clubs, start using that ParanormalPC stuff there will be a wealth of evidentiary findings to be added to the pool of available knowledge, afterall a well recorded NULL result is just as good as REAL reading, especially valuable when dealing with MEDIUMS.

I bet it does nothing of the sort - because how are you going to interpret the findings when you dont know what you are measuring or why?

Its all about transparency - we need more information really.

[Dr B]

Here are my overall thoughts.

Bringing science to the field is not easy - it is fraught with problems and error. This should not deter us, but we should be aware of it.

Quantifying variables and factors for study is a good thing - but we need to be clear on how we are quantifying, why and for what.

There are two main issues related to the above discussion. One issue relates to the device itself and how it measures the variables it claims to measure. I have outlined my questions along those lines above in earlier posts.

The second issue relates to the theory underlying it. What do your measurements actually mean? What are your guiding hypotheses and questions? What is the theory you are testing and what is the evidence for / against it?

There is no evidence for a relationship between EMFs and ghosts - fact. There is evidence for a relationship between EMFs and hallucinations that are reported as ghosts. However, the EMFs are very exotic and require considerable technology to reveal them. My hunch is this technology being discussed here cannot measure these complex fields.

I refer all those concerned to the following website to see how its done in a more scientific manner. Note the page that outlines sensor specification (hardware) and full links to the manufacturer. Transparency is key.

http://www.apaw71.dsl.pipex.com/MADS/

[Howlin Shaolin]

Well did you see the Frog:
I did put it up not to be offensive, but to see what would reign on this formum an intellectual level which appreciates semantical humour or attitude. (Is seeing believing)

I expected it to be moderated off, may be ridiculed , because that’s how you maintain control.

A serious question :
Skepticim can it ever become a Science or a Pseudo Science, what are the liable laws surrounding scepticism?


PS sorry "formum" as Freudian slip, Freudian Slip et al: “Where you substitute one word with a mother one”

[Dr B]

I have no idea what you are talking about - however, its been a long day so maybe that error is mine.

Nontheless, would you like to return to the questions above and cease the irrelevant tangents here. If you would like to discuss skepticism and science - I for one would be delighted - but lets do that in another thread - indeed there are some around here already - take a look at start there O0

So, any comments on the spec questions, theory questions, etc etc, above? ???

[Dr B]

A serious question :
Skepticim can it ever become a Science or a Pseudo Science, what are the liable laws surrounding scepticism?


Skepticism is nothing more than a tool - it is not a belief system or a science in itself - but forms a part of science. Critical thinking, logic (formal and informal) reason, and skepticism are similar and related concepts. They are nothing more than tools that have the capacity to help steer your thinking away from delusion and error.

My questions to you would be: how do you know what is not so? How do you know you are not being deluded? What safeguards do you have?

[Dr B]

In case anyone thinks I am going insane here - it seems howlin shaolin has started to remove posts......in an attempt to twist the debate perhaps >:(

Shame really.

[Howlin Shaolin]

049: Unkown database 'nonexistentdb'
1146: Table 'kossu.nonexistenttable' doesn't exist
quota full on serv 9872 OD FE FEDE..

[Admin]

I've put a ban on the idiot.

[Dr B]

ooohhhhhh Was it something I / we said? Do tell...... :angel:

[Jocky]

I've put a ban on the idiot.


Oooh! Is that UKS' first ever ban??

Just for the record, John - can you clarify your reasons for banning him? I'm sure it wasn't just for being an idiot ;D

Presumably posting bare naked ladies, and systematically deleting posts are high on the list ...

[Dr B]

I missed the porn......... :o :wnw:

[Jocky]

Bad luck Doc ... or maybe it was EMFs inducing hallucinations in me :D

Seriously, he did post a fairly gross picture (only porn if you have particular and unusual tastes) which John removed (rightly IMO)

I missed the post he removed which made you olook like you were talking to yourself earlier today - but then it probably wasn't worth seeing ...

[Dr B]

indeed........ O0

[Admin]

I've stuck a ban on until I can see what he was up to.

Then I'll decide whether to leave it in place or not.

[Dr B]

can he / she still pm you? If so - get him / her to answer my questions first (entry exam ;D)

[Admin]

Right,

I've reinstated the postings that Howlin Shaolin (a.k.a. Duncan Rigby of Rochdale) deleted to show the level of idiocy that was displayed in this thread by someone acting to promote the paranormal investigation kits sold by Supermeters.

I think there should no longer be the slightest doubt that these products are worthless as far as paranormal investigating goes and that they are being sold by/promoted by a bunch of clowns.

[Dr B]

Magic beans anyone...... ;D ;D

[median]

Mmm

Initial thoughts?

Not too happy with the censorship aspect. Have been on the receiving end of a few and mildly galling to say the least ???

[Jocky]

Maybe you didn't see the picure he posted - it was inappropriate and I think it deserved to be modded.

Fair point about freedom of speech though - we don't want to ban people just for being idiots ...

[Dr B]

Median I agree

As long as people are not trolling and not being offensive they should not be banned - but i understand he was posting dodgy pictures, which is certainly fair game for at least a formal warning.

If this person promises to behave and abide by forum rules they should be given a chance. I am sure john is chatting behind the scenes.

I still want my questions answered ;D ;D so I cant wait for HS to return

[median]

Fair point about freedom of speech though - we don't want to ban people just for being idiots ...

Exactly, I have a self-interest in this one :D

[Mongrel]

I still want my questions answered ;D ;D so I cant wait for HS to return


No fair - I asked mine first :(


What has paranormal 'science' brought to the table in the past hundred or so years

[Admin]

Not too happy with the censorship aspect. Have been on the receiving end of a few and mildly galling to say the least ???


I received a complaint about the picture and as it served no purpose other than to cause offence, it had to go.

Oops, I should have added that I removed the ban on Howlin Shaolin once I had worked out what had been going on.

So he's free to come back and answer Dr. B's pertinent questions should he wish.

[Dr B]

Fantastic O0

HS.....are you there.....knock once for yes.... :ghost:

[Jocky]

Thanks for the clarification, John. Wasn't me who complained about the picture, but I concur with removing it. There's a time and a place for such things, and this ain't it.

Glad to hear HS may return when he wishes, perhaps to respond to Dr B's points (and I'd like to see an answer to Mongrel's question too, though I very much doubt we will ;) )

[Dr B]

I have just revisited the site and there is not a single figure or stat on a single piece of hardware.

At the very least its a very bad website, though my hunch is the gear cant do anything. No frequency responses with the mics or meters, no error levels, no sensitivity data. Its awful.

John - I think we should approach them for some clarification info on some devices and then may be do an article on it. Whether its positive or negative (the article not ions ;D) will depend on the knowledge we get back. 8)

[Admin]

John - I think we should approach them for some clarification info on some devices and then may be do an article on it. Whether its positive or negative (the article not ions ;D) will depend on the knowledge we get back. 8)


Well that has crossed my mind. Let's choose a couple of their flagship products, work out what use, if any, they are likely to be to the serious, amateur paranormal investigator and publish our findings.

If they wish to contribute, their input will be taken into account.

[Supermeters]

Hi guys I will probably live to regret this but this is Rich from Supermeters, A good friend told me that there has been some fairly "strong" debating on here about some of my products, I am in to free speech guys so bring it on, what do you want to know, and I will try my best to answer it.

Now lets not go crazy, I am a sceptic like you guys, and until I record evidence otherwise then I will continue to be.

So like they say "bring it on"!!!!

Seriously though guys, I would appreciate some constructive criticism if you think there is room for improvement!

But please bear in mind that there are people on here , academics who have spent thousands on researching the paranormal with extensive gear, this is not my market, and it never will be.

So come on at least give me some credit for entering the lions den!

Rich

PS I would like to add that I have personally emailed the site admin to offer him to a demonstration of the software

PPS I would like to distance myself from some of my defenders who I gathered have been banned, I know that you cynical guys will think that it has been me who has been posting but I wouldn't do that, especially not in a way that would get me banned! could some one PLEASE tell me what the pic was of, it sounds V interesting!!!

there you go, do your worst, but bear in mind not many people would do this!!

[Dr B]

Welcome Rich

The debate is above in the thread. Please take the time to read through it if you get the chance. No one here has attacked you or indeed the others making the earlier claims - people simply asked for them to back up their claims. I am sure you understand why that is important.

Its good you have asked for advice and there are many here who will give it - it might have been more useful to you before you started your project as it is likely to have saved you money.

Please dont fall into the trap of thinking we are a bunch of nasty skeptics - we are not. If anyone here was to attack you or anyone else - then irrespective of whether they were a skeptic or not I or another staff member would formally warn them - then ban them. Rest assured on that one.

Its great that you are here and willing to discuss - but please dont paint us all as nasty skeptics - we are not. However, none of us will stand for nonsense parading as science and I am sure neither will you.

Chat soon O0

p.s. please read the threads and what mongrel and others have asked for - that seems the best way forward. O0

[Admin]

Hi Rich, and welcome.

Why don't you make it clear who your target audience is for this equipment, at what level it's meant to work at, and within what parameters.

Like I said at the beginning, it looks to me like it's catering for the 'Most Haunted' brigade. No doubt there's a market for such equipment and and if it's what people want then fair enough.

Unfortunately a few people have come on here trying to defend your equipment and have, frankly, made a pig's ear out of attempting to do so. The level of 'debate' from them will do nothing but harm your business.

As skeptics, we assess claims. If you're claiming that your equipment is scientific and adding to paranormal research in any way then prepare yourself for a rough ride.

On the other hand, if you're selling recording equipment for use in amateur paranormal investigations then I don't think too many of us will have a problem with that.

There's a difference between scientific validity and filling a gap in the market.

[Howlin Shaolin]

I unreservedly apologise to the owners of this forum for any offence I may have brought, in light of semantic argument over the issues of Science and the Paranormal, the investigation off etc.. My banning and reinstatement has severed as a warning to us all.

Dr B, Respect to you, the voice of reason

I came on to this forum being so buzzed at being part of a legitimate Guinness Event (atempt) with several Paranormal club members from Rochdale which have chipped in for some monitoring equipment after seeing it in action. I’ll let you know how it all works out after trying it and being more scientific than glibly entertaining.

[Supermeters]

Cheers for the warm welcome guys!

Your not mr nasty's and I am not my big shot business man ripping people off , so thats that sorted!

Now ALL of the kit I sell is for investigators of the paranormal to use. I dont sell Ghost detectors, I sell the equipment that people want to use to investigate the paranormal. I cant help what people want to use. However i PERSONALLY am not into crystals, dowsing rods etc. That is a personal opinion!

Now really guys take a look around the other paranormal shops, they are not doing anything new, not pushing anything on etc. Now im not saying that I am going to win a prize for scientific breakthroughs, but is it not better that Paranormal Investigators should have a system that records all the results that they choose to measure in one system against a very accurate time line, then interrogate that data themselves, that is what ParanormalPC does in a nutshell

Im sure you will have something to add?

Cheers guys inputs always appreciated, but think of this way i am at least pushing a hobby further down the road of science. NOT JOHN LIKE MOST HAUNTED O0

[Dr B]

Welcome back HS, keep us up to date with your excursions. O0

Also, if you get the chance, read through this thread and pick a few questions out to have a go at them - dont worry if you cant answer them. When that happens - take the question to those who made these claims to you - let me know what answers they give you.

Take it easy and happy hunting O0 O0

If you have any questions on scientific protocol, how to get the best out of your gear, what gear to buy, research questions, critical thinking about the paranormal, etc, dont be afraid to ask. There are lots of people with lots of perspectives around here. Some of them are even useful ;D ;D

[Dr B]

Supermeters

What does any of your gear actually measure? Timelines mean nothing unless we know what it is you are measuring.

So lets start small and take it from there. Your EMF meters / sensors. Tell me about them (their spec etc) - what do they do and how? Lets keep this restricted to just these meters for now. O0 These questions should be the ones any customer asks you.

[Supermeters]

I get asked them but most people dont you wuold be surprised how little some people want to know! the range of the meter is 0 - 100 milligauss and is uses a High Gain FET to greater amplify levels as low as 5 milligauss.

I know what you are going to say , that will pick up power etc, we know this and it is down to the investigators to realize this also. But these people arent daft ! Our aim when developing this meter was to use a totally unfiltered system to give us the actual results that are there, not filtered.

Here is a story you might find interesting!
During Software dev. we thought we had a bug in the program with a pip occurring every 5 seconds on the dot. we looked at the code etc and nothing could be found. The cause of it was a dimmer switch some 10 meters away. So that is a lesson for anyone using similar equipment.

[Araneus]

Supermeters, I am quite satisfied that you are just offering products to meet a demand, and are not specifically pushing any paranormal claims. However, your website does give the impression that the value of this equipment in investigating the paranormal is definite, when it is in fact merely speculative.

For instance:



In paranormal investigations low level EMF's are created by the presence of an entity. By using a highly sensitive EMF meter such as this, one can scientifically verify where and when an entity is present.

This EMF meter was designed exclusively for paranormal researchers. It reads the very low levels which indicates paranormal activity. The antenna acts as a direction finder to locate the source of the EMF paranormal activity.


If your purpose truly is merely to provide tools, which the user is responsible using in an appropriately scientific way, would you be prepared to tone down the references to paranormal hypotheses on your site and avoid giving the impression that these machines actually demonstrate the existence of the paranormal? Would you consider adding a disclaimer, such as:

This equipment is sold for personal or educational use only. There is no proven link between EMF/temperature/magnetic/ion fluctuations and paranormal activity, and positive readings obtained with this equipment should not be construed as evidence of the presence of ghosts, spirits or other supernatural entities.

[Supermeters]

totally agree, but bearing in mind I do have to market my products ! So waht if i said that i would put that disclaimer on my front page , how does that sound ? I am sure that the qoute you provided from my site isnt representative of all the products I sell.

Cheers for the feedback

Rich

PS I am more than willing to listen to any more advice given

[Araneus]

As an alternative to the disclaimer (and I do agree it sounds a bit negative if you want to sell the products), you could try marketing the equipment from a scientific perspective rather than a "believers" perspective.

For example, there is a link between abnormal EMF and paranormal experiences (here is an example (http://www.parascience.org.uk/investigations/ohfarm/ohfarm.htm)). The current theory is that applying a strong EMF to the temporal lobe creates experiences of a "presence" in some people, which has been replicated experimentally. This means that an EMF meter may actually be very valuable in paranormal investigations, not because a high reading indicates paranormal activity, but because a high reading provides a scientific explanation for the experiences that people have had in constrast to a supernatural one.

With this in mind, and considering that a properly-conducted scientific investigation is about eliminating alternative hypotheses, rather than confirming what is already believed, you could try something like:



This device measures Electromagnetic Field (EMF) fluctuations of up to [whatever].

In some cases, locations where people have had paranormal experiences have been shown to have unusual levels of EMF. The precise effect of EMF on the brain is unknown, however research has shown that a strong EMF applied to the temporal lobe can induce experiences of the supernatural in some people. Consistently high EMF readings may provide an explanation for an above-average number of reports of paranormal or hallucinatory experiences in a given location.

[Supermeters]

Araneus, that is a genuinely good quoute , one I will be using in the not too distant future, I may have to very slightly alter it but it sounds good.

Thanks very much for your input, its greatly appreciated

Rich

[Araneus]

No problem. I'm no marketer, so I can't say what will and won't sell your product, but it is much better (from an educational/scientific point of view) to promote them as tools to investigate possible causes of paranormal experience, rather than tools to confirm the believers hunch that "ghosts are present".

[Supermeters]

totally, but there has to be things to draw people in and generate interest, i think you will agree

[Equalizer]

Rich,

I am glad that you have finally come on the forum to answer the questions that have been asked, hopefully this should help everyone get the answers they were after.

Guys,

A big apology from me regarding my reactions and replies to your posts as they were well out of order, I would like to wipe the slate clean and start again if that is OK with all of you. This will give me a chance to gain some expert advice and opinion.

[Araneus]

totally, but there has to be things to draw people in and generate interest, i think you will agree


You can still do that. By taking the scientific approach, you can sell to skeptics who might want to purchase a meter in order to debunk a "haunted" location but would strongly react (as I did) to paranormal claims and therefore not make a purchase.

On the other hand, I don't suppose THAT many "true believers" would be put off by the scientific explanation -- if they believe the meter measures paranormal entities directly, they are going to want one no matter what explanation is given. Furthermore, by offering such an explanation you provide a service to the "fence sitters" who haven't made up their mind, but might be inspired to investigate the scientific background.

[Supermeters]

I agree entirely. Bear in mind that this product was nvented by myself, a skecptic, who hasnt seen anything paranormal. But I designed it get proof of the paranromal if there is such a thing ?

[median]

I know what you are going to say , that will pick up power etc, we know this and it is down to the investigators to realize this also. But these people arent daft ! Our aim when developing this meter was to use a totally unfiltered system to give us the actual results that are there, not filtered.


Actually Supermeters, people generally are daft. You'd be suprised in how many people are woefully ignorant of baseline readings and error signals. In addition to purchasing product specification do you also provide a general list of do's and don'ts of how to use the equipment?

[Dr B]

I get asked them but most people dont you wuold be surprised how little some people want to know! the range of the meter is 0 - 100 milligauss and is uses a High Gain FET to greater amplify levels as low as 5 milligauss.


Supremeters

I am still confused and this does not really help me. 0-100Mg of what? What fields / frequencies are covered, how does the devices measure fields? I did ask all this much earlier and if you could go back and have a read that would be very helpful for me. My hunch is your meter is geared for 50Hz / 60Hz - but i cant tell - which is kind of the problem really.

[Dr B]

As an alternative to the disclaimer (and I do agree it sounds a bit negative if you want to sell the products), you could try marketing the equipment from a scientific perspective rather than a "believers" perspective.

For example, there is a link between abnormal EMF and paranormal experiences (here is an example (http://www.parascience.org.uk/investigations/ohfarm/ohfarm.htm)). The current theory is that applying a strong EMF to the temporal lobe creates experiences of a "presence" in some people, which has been replicated experimentally. This means that an EMF meter may actually be very valuable in paranormal investigations, not because a high reading indicates paranormal activity, but because a high reading provides a scientific explanation for the experiences that people have had in constrast to a supernatural one.


Actually - the current theory has little to do with strong EMFs at all - this is a big misconception. It has to do with complexity in weak fields. Field strength is not crucial on its own. O0

[Dr B]

Loads of info and background on what the journals really say here;

http://www.apaw71.dsl.pipex.com/MADS/

Its time-based complexity that is key. Spatial inhomogeneity can be important in the field as well. I have no idea how the meters Rich is talking about have any way of measuring these....

[Araneus]

I agree entirely. Bear in mind that this product was nvented by myself, a skecptic, who hasnt seen anything paranormal. But I designed it get proof of the paranromal if there is such a thing ?


A meter will never give you proof of the paranormal. A proper scientific investigation will eliminate all possible mundane explanations, quite possibly using meters or other measuring equipment, and then if the phenomenon is still unexplained, conclude only that there is an "as-yet unexplained phenomenon".

[Araneus]

Actually - the current theory has little to do with strong EMFs at all - this is a big misconception. It has to do with complexity in weak fields. Field strength is not crucial on its own. O0

That makes sense. I guess a very strong but static field is unlikely to have much of an effect on the brain.

[Dr B]

Absolutely O0

The only exception being really excessive static fields - and even then its the person moving into them, and at what speed (hence the change and rate of change) that is crucial. However, these fields will never exist in the natural environment.

Example - strong fMRI scanners can have fields of up to 7-Tesla. This is massive. If the patient is moved into the scanner too quickly, all sorts of odd things can happen to awareness and perception. Its nothing that could be interpreted as paranormal - but its not nice and shows a clear effect. So we tend to gradually introduce patients / observers into the field and things are fine.

[Supermeters]

I am not saying that one emf meter will get you proof of the paranormal, but some people take recorded results as having more evidential weight than people running with an EMF meter screaming, which is what I am trying to steer well clear of.

I do offer dos and donts with my system, as I mentioned before about dimmers etc, it is going to take a bright person to use this system in the manner we anticipate.

I have an electronics expert in the states in designs and makes all my meters I have contacted him about the EXACT specifications. I will post as soon as I receive.

Jason, I have seen your MADS project before, its very very impressive. Two laptops rather than my single unit :D just kidding. Very good stuff indeed, but I wouldn't want to cough up to calibrate this kit every time it takes a knock?

Why did you invent such a system if you don't mind me asking , was it your idea or an idea that you have developed, have you any "odd" results with the kit, IE any filed activity that you couldn't explain?

I hope you can understand that we are operating on two entirely different levels, you must have least 10K worth of equipment there, not even the most serious "ghost hunters" are likely to part with that amount of cash! Mine is a commercial venture to monitor environmental conditions, your is radically different.

So does anyone want to buy one?? O0 :D :P

[Dr B]

Super meters

You are not answering the question. I have asked some specifics on your meters - please respond with some helpful detail that will allow me to see what you are actually measuring and from that - what you can say about your so called data.

I am happy to discuss the MADS at a later time - but I am trying to stay focused on what your meters / claims are about.

I must also add that i remain totally unconvinced by your "I am just pandering to interest" approach. Its a form of special pleading (a logical fallacy). Bad science and misinformation is unacceptable. However, for now I want to concentrate on what your meters are measuring and how - so please could you give me the information I have asked for. Is it that you do not really know? ???

[Supermeters]

"I have an electronics expert in the states in designs and makes all my meters I have contacted him about the EXACT specifications. I will post as soon as I receive."

That is quoted from above.

Top be honest your being very stand offish, and not really helpful like the rest of the people on here were being .

ITS NOT BAD SCIENCE DR B , But unfortuntely I am not a DR like yourself, so I have to ask people that have designed them for answers. The day I pander for interest will never arrive!

[Dr B]

So basically, you are selling stuff that you have no idea yourself about how it works and what it can and cannot do - yet at the same time are totally confident it is good science. Lets both reserve judgment on that one - though you should have all this material in your possession and on your website.

I think I have been very helpful - please no ad hominems here (thats another fallacy by the way). I am merely asking you questions so i can try to understand more about the machines. I have also provided you with full links that show your website contains fallacious information (as others here have noted).

I am trying to understand quite a bit of information about these meters, and the science logic underlying it. On the one hand you are claiming its good science and on the other you are claiming it cannot be good science because science costs money and expertise.....I am just confused thats all.

It is bad science to make the claims your website is making. However, lets concentrate on the spec of the machines first.

There are issues to be discussed on your understanding of the literature, presentation of the information, the underlying logic of the system, its scientific credibility, and what the devices actually do.

You see - the question I have chosen to concentrate on is actually the very easiest of all - and yet you cannot answer it :scared:

Please get the spec to us all as soon as possible. I think all who are reading this debate will see you have been asked many times and have yet to answer. That will rightly ring alarm bells in the mind of the clever amateur.

[Supermeters]

I am not selling stuff that I have no interest in, I recently bought a new car, the man at the garage who sold it me was called gary, weeks later the car developed an electonic fault in the ECU, I DID NOT ASK GARY TO FIX IT , i took it tot he sevice dept. Yuo do not have to have a component level knowledge of somehting to sell it.

As soon as I get them, I will post, then you can ,pick them to pieces, and generally mock , because you have already judged me and my products without even seeing them. When I do post my specs, i will answer any other questions, then I will cease to post, as I am fastly realising that maybe some people cant offer advice like promised but are just here to pick fault.

Dont get me wrong there some good people on here willing to help, but others only willing to discredit.


So I will let you guys get back to it, it seems however that this is the most popular topic you have had, so at least I have driven a bit of webtraffic your way!

Thanks to all those who have shown a genuine interest and have been very helpful, I welcome all input.

[Howlin Shaolin]

A quick question on the thought of "Selling something" you know nothing about...

When you buy a compass, do you implicitly have to understand magentisim for it to be creible purschase or sale.

The point here is that mot one scientist has "Explained" what magnetism is, we know of it's forces and developed thories and governamce laws to qualify it and its interaction with other systems, but what is it?

Is Magenetism is an example of Paranormal Science.

[Mojo]

A quick question on the thought of "Selling something" you know nothing about...

When you buy a compass, do you implicitly have to understand magentisim for it to be creible purschase or sale.

Not necessarily, but if you are to use it you need to know that it will help you navigate by pointing North (or to be precise, towards the magnetic North Pole). If a compass didn't point north, or if the user didn't know that it pointed North, then the compass would be useless.

A compass needle detects the Earth's magnetic field, and we know what the result means: the needle points North. Supermeters' products may detect and measure certain real phenomena, but there is no good evidence that these are indications of paranormal phenomena.


The point here is that mot one scientist has "Explained" what magnetism is, we know of it's forces and developed thories and governamce laws to qualify it and its interaction with other systems, but what is it?

I think physicists may to some extent be onto that, but that knowledge is not necessary to use a compass. The important thing as far as the compass is concerned is that we can describe how the needle interacts with the Earth's magnetic field, and we know what conclusion we can draw from the result. On the other hand, it is not remotely clear how the readings taken by Supermeters' products relate to "paranormal" phenomena.


Is Magenetism is an example of Paranormal Science.


No. The effects are detectable and measurable, and well understood. In fact, what is arguably the first book published that used the scientific method, William Gilbert's De Magnete, is a description of magnetism.

[Mongrel]

1) If I was buying a bit of specialised kit from a store that sells only that then I'd expect a bit more knowledge about the product - even if was from a crib sheet.

As my example: Being a PC gamer I often upgrade my box. Most people generally go throught the thought process
How much money do I want to spend.
Will it play the game that's causing me problems and forcing me to upgrade.
What does the nice man at PC World say.

They ignore that stuff that myself and the gamer ilk plough through in regards to technical specifications and how it affects it's performance in situ.
How many pipelines does it have
What's the memory bandwidth
How fast is the memory
Which Shader modeller version it's coded for
What's the core speed of the GPU
Is the heatsink\fan combination sufficient for need
Can I get by on one kidney to pay for it (j/k)

None of what I look for make much sense to Joe Public, who's just after something that'll make Battlefield 2142 look nicer and they may only see this information as the big numbers on the back of the box ("'Cos bigger numbers are better!"). But if you want to make a living out of selling PC Graphics cards then you'd better know the answer to all those questions close at hand...

2) The compass is not a good example of a similar product. It's not a measuring tool and the interpretation of it's final readout is as simple as saying "That way is North". Imagine buying a thermometer or temperature probe calibrated in Rankine (don't peek at Wiki yet ;)) and all the salesman could say was "All the best paranormal investigators use this one!". You go to site and get a reading of 524 R - is that relevant or not?

[Dr B]

I am not selling stuff that I have no interest in

I never said you had no interest in it - just no demonstrateable knowledge. This is not the same.



Yuo do not have to have a component level knowledge of somehting to sell it.

You do if you are claiming its a scientific instrument. People will ask questions and you should be able to answer many of them - or be able to contact someone who can. Otherwise how do you know you are not selling meters full of sand and sweets? Its a matter of professionalism. Now, if you are saying, I dont need to know anything to be unprofessional - I would agree with that O0



As soon as I get them, I will post, then you can ,pick them to pieces, and generally mock , because you have already judged me and my products without even seeing them.


I would be delighted to see the specs. You make one crucial error here, you say we have mocked and already judged - thats a serious error as we have done nothing of the sort. As I said earlier I have done nothing more than ask you questions about the meters. These are quite basic questions - if you cant answer them - then neither can the customer - so how do you know what you are measuring and then how to interpret the measurements? If you get the spec to me I can help with that - but it is unlikely to speak to the magnetic / hallucination hypothesis - but until I see the specs none of us can say - not even you.

No one here is picking fault - we are asking for information. There are some problems with your site which can be rectified and your seem open to make such changes - thats excellent O0 I commend you on that.

However, if the meters are not optimal i will say when, where, why, and i will point to flaws in the logic, protocol and assumptions. These are not directed at you personally.

You keep talking about being attacked and no one has done anything of the sort - we do however, reserve the right to ask questions to get to the bottom of things - its called science. O0

[Dr B]

A quick question on the thought of "Selling something" you know nothing about...

When you buy a compass, do you implicitly have to understand magentisim for it to be creible purschase or sale.

The point here is that mot one scientist has "Explained" what magnetism is, we know of it's forces and developed thories and governamce laws to qualify it and its interaction with other systems, but what is it?

Is Magenetism is an example of Paranormal Science.


The point is the selling is based on assumptions about what the devices can do. There are no assumptions in a compass. If the needle is mounted correctly and all else is in order then fine.

Actually, some marine compasses are more sensitive to magnetic fluctuations so there is variability there to.....but thats another debate.

The compass example is irrelevant. You are using a known variable in a known example to explain an unknown one in a vague example - so it does not work....at least for me (and mojo....and mongrel....)

[Supermeters]

Dr B I respect your comments, and to a certain degree your corrections, and as a man of my word I will post the technical aspects of the emf AND every other sensor as I get the info from the suppliers. I think that is fair enough. Also I will post them on my website whihc think is fair enough.

I can state now however that i have inpsected the meters inside workings , and I can now GAURANTEE that they are not full of sand and sweets. ::)

[Dr B]

Rich

One more thing - you should express all magnetic measurements in increments of Tesla now. I know its frustrating but we all have to do it.

So use nT (nanoTesla) and uT (microTesla) for magnetic units of background levels. Most people now use nT uT instead of mG.

Edit - if you want a conversion chart i can get one to you - but i am sure you know how to do this O0

[Dr B]

Rich

Take a look at the sensors from Speake

http://www.speakesensors.com/

I knew the late Dr Richard Noble (sensor designer), and he let me play with some protoypes back in the early 1990s. As geomagnetometers they seem to be very, very good.

At less than £30 they are most certainly very cheap. Science does not always cost - but it does always require thought and effort.

You may be able to get some FGM-2s and design a good geomag with scientific measuring credentials. The output is in volts so you need to convert that and there will be some DAQ issues to sort out. But their range, sensitivity, and noise levels seem ok for a basic application. If you can sample the analogue signal fast enough you may even get some frequency information - but I doubt that is an easy thing to do. I know these also later became part of the MESA system.

Take a look.

[Dr B]

Here is another link to another excellent sensor - though more costly

http://www (dot) stefan-mayer.com/FL3.htm (remove the word dot and put a . in its place)

This is the type of technology you need to measure magnetic anomalies associated with ghostly sightings / feelings and perceptions.

Note also the specifications and the data sheets - much needed detail for any customer.... O0

APS make the digital ones I use (www.appliedphysics dot com) which are amongst the best i can find - but pricey

[Supermeters]

Brilliant. I have had a look at both those sites, nice gear indeed, especially the geomagnetic, I already have geomagnetic meters available but these are a really nice options.

The sensor we use in the geomagnetic meter is a hall effect sensor, I know these are relatively inexpensive, but quite good according to all the reviews I have seen

I would love a copy of the conversion chart, for me and to also put on the website, spread the knowledge thats what we should all be doing.

Rich

[Dr B]

Hall sensors are fine but dated and can give different readings over different temperatures. For geomag you need a sensor with at least 1nT sensitivity (0.5nT if possible). Does yours have this?

The FGM sensors from speake are far, far superior to hall sensors and at around £30 for the sensor and £20 for the electronics - no one can argue its too expensive for the amateur.

Ideally, you should use fluxgate or proton as they are by far the best for geomag - but price does go up.

My advice - for the best priced scientific geomag that we know is calibrated and does what it says on the tin - go to speake. O0

The only real challenge is converting the output

[Supermeters]

I will seek further info from the guy who makes the merter regarding the Hall Effect sensor, adn I will post the results

[Dr B]

In addition, although i am not a fan of meters the SPECTRAN® NF-5010
is about the best on the market for well under £1000. It can even be linked to its own software and data-logger.

check it out (and you can get conversion charts from the same website O0)

http://test1 (dot) contenttest.net/Spektrumanalysator_en.shtml# (remove the word dot and put a . there)

Of course, none of thsi makes ghost hunting scientific, all it ensures is you know what your measuring and with what degree of accuracy

[Supermeters]

I have had an order in with this company for nearly 12 months for the Digital EMF meter that they sell. they promise me all the time that its nearly finsihed , I have given up now!! The site looks good but half of the products simply dont exist!! hahah

[Dr B]

Thats odd

I have many units from them that I use to teach kids / students how NOT to do things and why (may be I will use yours from now on ;D ;D).

I tend to get them within 48 hours.....never missed. I have seen and used most of the stuff there (though most of it is really for the EMF industry and not really relevant for scientific quanitifcation of complex anomalies). However, the meter i told you about does exist......unless i was hallucinating......

I dont know why you struggled.....ahh well.....

Always ask to talk to the engineers if possible...not just the salespeople - they tend to know nothing......oooppss :-[

[Supermeters]

Which model was it that you have got?

[Dr B]

I have lots of different ones - but they are with a colleague in the lakes - because as I said - I dont like to use meters myself. I prefer sensors and the MADS.

I only use meters for teaching purposes.. O0

[Dr B]

Rich

Any news on that detail I asked for????

Regards
J

[Supermeters]

Working on it, dont you worry!

[Dr B]

Thats great O0

I do find it odd that your engineer friend cannot simply send you the spec. Afterall, if they built it, they should know.

Anyway, looking forward to it, take it easy O0

[Supermeters]

He is a busy man .....................

[Dr B]

Busy carrying out tests so he / she can provide the spec ;D ;D...sorry....

Yes - looking forward to it Rich. My hunch is your EMF devices are frequency weighted for 50/60Hz fields and little else, but I am keen to know for sure. Also dont forget to ask about the geomag - what field changes is it sensitive to? To be useful it needs to go down to 1nT. All the other questions are contained in earlier pages of this thread.

Regards
J

[tkingdoll]

At this point I'm wading in, please take the time to read my post, despite its length.

Supermeters, to give you some background, I run a Marketing Consultancy, so this my professional opinion as well as my opinion as a skeptic.

To everyone else (especially those who hate marketing!), you might not like what I say here but please bear with me.

Broadly, what Supermeters is selling has two major target markets (there are more segments but he's not that far into his business yet, I'd say):

Market A) People who already believe in the existence of ghosts and want to find 'proof' of them.

Market B) People who want to find non-paranormal explanations for 'paranormal' experiences (as mentioned earlier in this thread). These people are likely to not believe in ghosts.

Now, as the enormous popularity of ghost-hunting TV progs (versus the relatively tiny amount of skeptic TV shows) demonstrates, market A is very likely to be the larger.

If Supermeters was my client, I would recommend to him that he undertakes some market research to confirm this and to identify any other potential segments, but as we don't have that research, we'll have to agree that the former market is likely to be the bigger. The second market, I would anticipate, is very limited indeed.

So, although it's a nice idea (ethically) to try and persuade Supermeters to shift his marketing to Market B, it's a fairly poor business idea if his objective is to yield maximum profit.

OK, that's the unpopular bit over with.

Now, if he is fixed on appealing to Market A, then what we have is a problem of honesty. You guys have already identified the legal and ethical issues in claiming the device can identify entities (and if I'm not mistaken, Supermeters has amended this?), but there remain two distinct ethical issues (and I suspect this is where Supermeters, who wants to make money, will differ from everyone else):

1) The device is masquerading as science when it is really pseudoscience.

This is not a new marketing trick, it's the oldest one in the book. Tono Bungay, anyone? I liken Supermeters' product to shampoo or skincare products. The beauty industry makes some absurd claims and dresses them up as science in an effort to lend credibility to a product - otherwise consumers would struggle to differentiate between it and the next shampoo/moisturiser/whatever. Pseudoscience legitimises the product (because the public rarely know the difference), and adds a price premium. "Here comes the science bit!" isn't a science bit at all, but millions of people fall for it and shell out their readies.

Supermeters, you will find that skeptics and scientists have a problem with pretend science because it devalues real science and misleads an otherwise uneducated public. Science is the most valuable tool a society has, developmentally, and it takes us backwards if we misrepresent what is and isn't possible.

2) The device exploits irrational belief, superstition and gullibility.

Again, this is one of the oldest marketing tricks in the book. I might have an irrational belief in my chances of winning the lottery, or I might be gullible enough to think that a deodorant will get me laid. Those designer jeans will make me popular, and that face powder will make me as beautiful as the airbrushed model. If I eat these low-fat crisps I will be thin, and that particular bottle of alcoholic drink will make me more masculine.

However, where Supermeters' device differs is here: there is no evidence for the existence of ghosts. There is such a thing as beauty, popularity, perfect bodies, etc, so product marketing which appeals to people on that basis is being dishonest through truth.

Supermeters' device is being dishonest through lies. All it does is encourage those who already believe in ghosts to go and play at being Most Haunted. That's it. Nothing more sophisticated than that.

If you start with the premise that ghosts exist, and then go and 'look' for evidence to support your assertion, you will find it...because you want to. It won't stand up to scrutinity (it never does), but that won't change the mind of the believer.

Never mind that the person might not have the scientific knowledge to actually interpret their findings, or the training in critical thinking to understand, for example, Occams Razor. Never mind that the person is going to interpret their findings to support a conclusion they already came to, despite the fact that that is not how science is done. Never mind that an irrational belief, by its very nature, is difficult to let go of and likely to bias the believer into dismissing rational explanations in favour of popular ones. Sell 'em the gear anyway, you'll make quick cash from encouraging all of the above.

Supermeters, you will find (and I think this sums up why the people here have opposed your product) that most skeptics dislike the sort of poor thinking, pseudoscience and exploitation I describe above. To actually add to the tide of voodoo and paranormal irrationality that is sweeping the country is the exact opposite of what we skeptics are trying to achieve. We are trying to reduce it.

I doubt you will change your mind about what you are doing as I suspect the conscience and ethics required to do the right thing are lacking. I think you believe you've struck on a novel way to make money from the current trend of ghost hunting. I also think you believe that if you don't do it, someone else will. As a business owner, I cannot condemn you for that, but as a skeptic, I do.

Thanks,

TK

[Supermeters]

I appreciate what you are saying, points taken, you may be happy to know that after some further investigation Supermeters maybe taking a turn down the road that does not involve the paranormal, but this is not hard and fast yet, that should make you all pretty happy! Then people can go back to using whatever they used before they had software to monitor there results!

I hasten to add that 50% of the people who have bought the product are skeptics and buy it to proove people wring about ghosts ! that may surprise you.

Can I ask which companies you do marketing for ? And the name of your consulatancy ,as we might be intersested ?

I also hasten to add that I didnt post on here for publicity, someone else started this thread.

[Supermeters]

Oh and actually while I am at it , we could rebrand this as an enviromental monitoring package and I know the market, the "ghost hunters" would still buy it! FACT!

[tkingdoll]

Oh and actually while I am at it , we could rebrand this as an enviromental monitoring package and I know the market, the "ghost hunters" would still buy it! FACT!


Oh, I don't doubt that for a second. The difference is in the business ethics. No new business refuses to sell to someone, but the difference is whether they are buying it because they believe it can do something, or because you told them it can.

For example, if you say "this machine measures environmental x,y,z" and someone emails you and says "does that mean I detect ghosts with it", legally and ethically you can't claim that it does. You could, however, tell them that some people do use it for that, but at this moment in time, as far as you are aware, there is no evidence for the existence of ghosts. That's the compromise between ethics and profit.

I'd prefer not to reveal details of my business name in an open forum (beware of stalkers!) but if you have questions feel free to PM me. I choose my clients carefully though, and am unlikely to support a venture I'm not comfortable with, so I guess it depends what your 'new road' is. :)

[Dr B]

Then people can go back to using whatever they used before they had software to monitor there results!

Hold on - we have all this gear anyway, and besides software means nothing if your hardware aint sufficient - and we need to establish this.



I hasten to add that 50% of the people who have bought the product are skeptics and buy it to prove people wring about ghosts ! that may surprise you.

I doubt it ;D How can they disprove anything (even if such a thing were possible) if they dont know what it measures or how. Presumably all your customers are in the complete dark about your devices - as we are here? I guess these people call themselves skeptics so others dont think they are fruit cakes. Just my opinion of course - but no self-respecting skeptic would buy a measuring device under these circumstances.

[Dr B]

Oh and actually while I am at it , we could re brand this as an environmental monitoring package and I know the market, the "ghost hunters" would still buy it! FACT!


You cant re brand anything if the technology is not up to the task - an issue I have been pushing here for some time now. Trust me, if your geomag cannot measure down to a few nT it is useless for geophysicists and paranormalists alike.

Ghost hunters will buy it - unless they read this thread here first. This is because most do not understand the variables they are measuring or why....they are being fed a twisted version of science and it is difficult for them to see that.

[Supermeters]

I "CAN" rebrand anthing I like

[Supermeters]

My instruments are up to the Task as I will prove . ;)

[Dr B]

OK, if you are unprofessional and unscientific with no ethics (see Teeks post) - sure - but beware, the laws are changing and careful wording is key. We are all professional here and i was extending to you that common decency....maybe i was wrong to do that.

I like to think - when people make mistakes, that they are honest mistakes rather than willful misrepresentation. Once i am happy with modifying my view, I expose the misrepresentation for what it is.

Please do prove what your equipment can do.....You seem to have the time to come here and chat - why not phone your engineer and get that detail....we have been waiting for some time for what should be basic info.... O0

[Dr B]

My point originally was, if your devices cannot measure what they need to, then they are of no use to anyone. That still stands whether you rebrand yourself or not.

[Dr B]

Rich

Another mistake you keep making is that no one else uses data-loggers. Guess what - they do!!!! Indeed they are very common.

Have you heard of Pico? Thats one example. I have some old DAQ-board 16-bit ones somewhere (lying around cos they are now quite old). I can assure you, many groups have quite a bit of technology (even if they do not have any knowledge or understanding behind it).

O0

Edited for typos

[Nicky]

I couldn't live without my data-loggers, me ...

[Araneus]

I'd prefer not to reveal details of my business name in an open forum (beware of stalkers!)

This will, however, only protect you from the kind of useless stalker that cannot find out your business name within two clicks.

[tkingdoll]

I'd prefer not to reveal details of my business name in an open forum (beware of stalkers!)

This will, however, only protect you from the kind of useless stalker that cannot find out your business name within two clicks.


Well if a stalker tries that hard, who am I to deprive him? But the stalker thing was tongue in cheek, of course. I think it's perfectly obvious that it's not appropriate to promote my profit-making business in this forum.

Why, you're not my stalker are you? If so, I'm a bit overdue on the dead flowers, hurry it up.

[Jocky]

I'm a bit overdue on the dead flowers, hurry it up.

You got the used underwear OK, then?

;D

[Dr B]

Rich

Do you have that information for us? I am going to write a summary report for all here - I would rather it included that information. However, the absence of it is very worrying and should be a major warning bell to any customer.

My hunch is (and I am prepared to be wrong here) any customers you have, have completely wasted their hard earned money (for reasons I will provide in the report). However I await this elusive information with interest O0

[Dr B]

Rich

Do you have that information for us? I think we have all waited long enough. Please either provide this information, give me your engineers contact so i can get it directly or acknolwedge you all have no idea what your devices are actually measuring or how. These would be the best ways forward O0

[Dr B]

Once again,...... :-\



Rich

Do you have that information for us? I think we have all waited long enough. Please either provide this information, give me your engineers contact so i can get it directly or acknolwedge you all have no idea what your devices are actually measuring or how. These would be the best ways forward O0

[Araneus]

I'm pretty sure he's vanished.

[Admin]

Rich may think that by not replying we will simply forget about Supermeters. ;)

[Dr B]

Then he would be quite wrong. 8)

What will follow below are some of my musings and thoughts on the products offerred by Supermeters based on the detail on their website and discussed here in this thread.

Obviously the lack of detail and information on what his products measure, and how, make a detailed analysis problematic. However, this actually is a problem for him and the customer as well. My comments will be split across a number of posts for ease of reading - but I will add a final summary statement for readers that might be tempted to part with their hard earned cash. More to follow soon.... O0

[Admin]

And your insights will be turned into an appraisal of these products and placed on the main site. O0

[Dr B]

OK here are some points to summarise this thread (apologies for the delay)

We have been patient with Rich - indeed - no one can accuse us of not being either clear or patient.

In November 2006 (see earlier in this thread for evidence) I posted here asking Rich for further details regarding his meters. I then asked twice on November 7th. I asked again on November 8th (more than once) and was clearly promised this information.

November 13 asked again for specifications.

November 16 asked again for specifications

November 22 asked again for specifications

December 12 asked again for specifications.

It is now February 2007 and we still have no answer at all to the clear and basic questions on the specifications of these meters. So, 4-months have passed and we are still no wiser!

Here is the problem. Supermeters do not know what their meters do, so how do their ghost-hunting customers? How can any reading be taken as evidence for anything and how can any reading be interpreted at all? This is not science and this is not scientific.

If anyone is reading this and wondering what to buy, for now at least, I would not recommend these devices at all and would advise all enthusiasts to keep their hard earned cash in their pockets.

More to follow..... 8)

[Dr B]

Here are some website quotes



Our main aim is to please the customers, this we have achieved and continue to achieve. Our second most important goal is innovation.

I am not sure how selling the public a distorted view of science pleases them. In addition, there is no innovation here as it is all based on highly questionable ideas about the reality of ghosts / apparitions as an external veridical event or manifestation. As assumptions go, that’s about as big as they come. if they dont know the spec...where is the innovation?



At Supermeters we truly believe in the credible Paranormal Investigation, That is why we have spent tens of thousands of pounds developing the ParanormalPC equipment, this can be seen elsewhere on the site.

Not true. The underlying logic is flawed, there is no scientific credibility here and no specifications as to what the meters can and cannot do – so there is no substance to the claim of being about credible research. Furthermore, if so much money has been spent (and I doubt that) why is the technology not better and not more appropriate? I could build this stuff for a few quid.



No one else in the entire world has developed a software and hardware system aimed at Paranormal Investigators. We truly believe that this is the biggest thing in Paranormal Investigation for the last fifteen years.

This is simply not true – there are many groups and people doing it – and doing it far better than this. Your belief that this is the biggest thing in 15 years is plain folly – I suggest you read more. I’ve been researching the paranormal for around 20years and this stuff would have struggled to be new or innovative for the last 15 of those (with the only real innovation being the computers – and you did not invent and design them)!



We are way out in front of all our competitors on innovative products, we have just introduced a new range of meters from the states these measure, EMF, Magnetic Flux and Negative Ions. These meters are handcrafted to Supermeters’ exacting standards.

Wrong – in front of whom and on what basis? The meters you introduce – you don’t know what they do so how can you say this? How can you then go on to claim exacting standards? What standards? Making money?

[Dr B]

Some further observations....



The top selling EMF meter in the UK and the USA at the moment. (A true ghost hunters essential item!)
-External Probe, for more accurate directional results
-Visual and audio alert of any suspect paranormal activity
-Immediate display of any paranormal activity
-High degree of sensitivity, more so than budget models
-This meter measures ELF (Extremely Low Frequency)

Best selling does not mean its any good for actually doing the job. A ‘best-selling’ dream catcher does not mean its doing anything of any real use at all (for example). Some of the best selling cars are not necessarily engineering masterpieces. Indeed this is even more so the case when one realises the bastardised notions of science being used here. So its ‘best-selling’ amongst most people who do not know what they need or why – so what! There is no real information here to tell the consumer what they are buying, what it can and cannot measure, to what degree of accuracy, etc, etc. Also the claim of ‘immediate display of paranormal activity’ is a Nobel-prize winning feat if possible. My hunch is Supermeters does not have a Nobel Prize for science. How do you know it is paranormal? How does the meter know it is paranormal? This is theory-laden garbled nonsense. It says it has a high degree of sensitivity but then does not tell you what that degree is!!!!! It says it measures into the ELF region but again there are no figures. This is not science. My advice to all enthusiasts is to keep your hard earned cash in your pocket and never purchase anything that provides so little detail of what it is supposed to do and how.


For another meter it is claimed it is;


“The Industry Standard and our most popular meter, used on MOST HAUNTED every week! (A true ghost hunters essential item !)”

I cannot believe a so-called instrument is claiming that being used on most-deluded is a good thing. I can assure you it’s not essential or worthwhile.

[ateleski]

Hello folks, thought this may be of interest to those who are looking into the supermeters detectors. A buddy of mine got this EMF detector and after finding out it was part of the paranormalpc, I wanted to take a look inside and see how they were converting the signal from analog to digital and the attached picture is my findings.... I don't think there is more then 15 parts inside this thing. I am not sure how you can call this a professional detector, its a diode, transistor and a couple of resistors hooked to a meter, no buffer circuits, not even a perf board?? I am not saying it does not work as an EMF detector, it seems to pick up some stuff, but from my experience with EMF detectors, this is as about as simple as it gets...

13

Again, I can not say if the system works or not, but they are charging an awful lot of money for something that I could build myself for about $20 (US)

[Dr B]

Hit there and welcome to the forum O0

Your investigation pretty much confirms much of this discussion. I feel sorry for people who part with their hard earned cash for these things...it is a shame really.

[median]

Flashing lights, give me flashing lights!...oh and few beeps as well..that always helps.

Better still, a variable pitched sine wave rising and falling at random.
I love them, me ;D;D

[Jocky]

Flashing lights, give me flashing lights!...oh and few beeps as well..that always helps

And of course is must go 'Ping' as well :smiley:

[median]

Something like Spock's tricorder would suffice ;D

[theSHADOW]

Thought I would just drop a notice in here, I don't think its worth a whole thread yet.

I have just got into Paranormal investigation with G2G MK , I am still a noob lol, But one thing I do know about is electronics. I've had brief encounters with the ParanormalPC suite from Supermeters and too be honest it is not that impressive for the price.

So I have decided that an intresting weekend project would be to build my own suite. I have already decided to utilise internal memory for datalogging and some kind of wireless link for a near-instant look on a laptop. Anyway I just wanted to know what you guys think?, I welcome to any ideas, stuff you have already built etc etc

[filippo lippi]

I think you sound very bright and that there must be a million and one more productive with your time than looking for things that aren't there.

Good luck with it all

[Mulder]

Thought I would just drop a notice in here, I don't think its worth a whole thread yet.

I have just got into Paranormal investigation with G2G MK , I am still a noob lol, But one thing I do know about is electronics. I've had brief encounters with the ParanormalPC suite from Supermeters and too be honest it is not that impressive for the price.

So I have decided that an intresting weekend project would be to build my own suite. I have already decided to utilise internal memory for datalogging and some kind of wireless link for a near-instant look on a laptop. Anyway I just wanted to know what you guys think?, I welcome to any ideas, stuff you have already built etc etc

What precisely is your new machine going to do and what physical principle will it use, please?

[Cuddles]

So I have decided that an intresting weekend project would be to build my own suite. I have already decided to utilise internal memory for datalogging and some kind of wireless link for a near-instant look on a laptop. Anyway I just wanted to know what you guys think?, I welcome to any ideas, stuff you have already built etc etc

As has been pointed out plenty of times in this thread already, there's no point. All you seem to be wanting to do is design a fancy way of recording data. That's all well and good, but what is actually important is the data itself. How you actually look at it is very much secondary. For example, you want to look at it instantly on a laptop. Why? What exactly will you be looking at and why do you need it instantly?

The problem with ghost hunting isn't the lack of fancy equipment, it's that nothing anyone ever measures actually has anything to do with ghosts. You'd be far better off trying to come up with a coherent hypothesis of what you expect to observe and why and then actually trying to measure it. Garbage in, garbage out and all that.