Forum to fill the ASSAP void; lets put scientific back on the map!

[median]

Following on from a comment than John wrote. Would it not be possible to set up a sub-forum of some sorts with the aim of attracting debate in this area?
As others have noted, there seems to be a huge amount of forums out there untempered with reason but what is needed is one that can present counter evidence and argue in a measured manner.

What do people think or am I talking utter gonads? :D :D

[tkingdoll]

What are we talking about - encouraging woos to join so we can debate them?

If so, I'm against that as part of UK Skeptics, simply because a) I don't see how it fits in with UKS objectives (trying to educate the general public, not hardcore bleevers, who don't want or need to be educated as far as they are concerned), and b) because it achieves nothing. It just declines into arguing because woos do not want to have reasoned debate. They want to prove us wrong, and an organisation with 'skeptics' in the name is ripe for targeting, because so many woos think skepticism is about being a closed-minded naysayer.

However, that's not to say there isn't any value in such a forum, if it were a seperate thing to UK Skeptics. I think our primary objectives should remain the focus of UKS attention and resources, and the association that goes with the name is important. I had the same opinion about the SkepticWiki.

Or have I got the ASSAP forum situation totally wrong?

[median]

Teek

It isn't a case of engaging the hard core woos to debate with their prior assumptions. It is however, a case for creating a forum for open debate in which viewpoints are aired and perhaps reflected upon by those members who maybe borderline woo but not decided.

If, as skeptics, we are worried in opening our defences, then one could question whether we are not sure enough to 'repel borders'.

Educating the public isn't all about standing up and wagging a finger to say 'this or that'. Sometimes it's about engaging in debate with those that have a different viewpoint.

Median

[tkingdoll]

I can't access the old ASSAP forum so I don't really know exactly what you mean - could you give me an example of the sort of debate you mean? Perhaps from another forum that's similar to what the ASSAP one was trying to achieve?

I don't understand what the difference is between what you describe and this forum, except we'd have to invite 'borderline woo' people here to debate. In which case a) how are you going to identify and make contact with them and b) is this forum big enough yet to have sufficient weight from the skeptic side? There are only about 10 regular posters here at the moment. It seems like an awful lot of effort and energy would be taken away from this forum to create another one that doesn't (as far as I can see) have a clear objective.

"If, as skeptics, we are worried in opening our defences, then one could question whether we are not sure enough to 'repel borders'.

Educating the public isn't all about standing up and wagging a finger to say 'this or that'. Sometimes it's about engaging in debate with those that have a different viewpoint."

I didn't say otherwise. In fact, this forum will eventuall fulfill both of those requirements, it's just not big enough yet.

I'm still unclear as to what "this area" in the OP exactly is, and how it differs from what this forum is already doing.

[Dr B]

Hhhhmmm

I can see both sides. I dont think we need a woo-hug-woo or skeptic-hug-skeptic type forum - as what would be the point (preaching to the converted). If we are going to truly spread the merits of science and skepticism then that means, to some degree, being a broad church.

ASSAP got some things right and some things wrong. I think it is a good thing, on the whole to have diverse opinions and views - indeed it is a strength. I think it is a perverse thing to have people who know nothing about science going around attacking it and getting all offended everytime the debate gets interesting. To be a member of a scientific association and then use that to promote pseudoscience and ignorance is not on in my book. If just opinions were being touted then to some degree fair enough, but scientific truths were being claimed on the back of no evidence and poor methods / reasoning.

I am all for a philosophical discussion on how science works as a process of knowledge and understanding - but it leads to problems when others try to use it as a fulcrum to undermine science and then promote their psycho-babble :D

The ASSAP forum did - for a while - get it just right. Lots of clear-minded people, woo's and non-woos discussing the issues. Then the extreme knowledge terrorists came in, contributed nothing and learnt nothing. I enjoyed reading and learning from it - as i enjoy reading and learning from this Forum. O0

The ASSAP forum did reach many people (many pm me regularly for further information) and many lurkers will have benefitted. I agree with median that reasoned debate is the way forward but all sides need to realise the rules of engagement and what the true aim of such debate is (i.e., knowledge and understanding). I also agree with Teek in the sense that we dont need extreme wooism.....we know from recent experience it goes nowhere....

All of the above is just my opinion of course.....

[John Jackson]

Forums are notorious for degrading into ‘flame wars’ once there are two sides that disagree. I think the ASSAP forum showed that all too clearly. What started out as a great resource with loads of information and intelligent discussion soon faltered when those who, for example, think that if science doesn’t match their beliefs then science is wrong.

I was thinking that we could debate a few of the issues on here amongst ourselves with the goal of identifying some of the latest thinking on studying anomalous phenomena (the paranormal if you like) so that we can develop a section on the main site where we can explain the issues in an educational manner.

As for inviting woo-woos over to debate the issues…

I don’t think it’s a good idea as it will just end up in mayhem. Good researchers take the skeptical approach (to one degree or another) anyway. Those who don’t aren’t interested in learning anything.

[median]

Point taken, I'll get me coat. :-[

Actually, seriously, on reflection I think that this type of forum would be a bad thing after all

O0

[Dr B]

I agree with Median's points in the original posts. We are skeptical here, but only to the point that it provides functional / testable understandings. At some point we opt for views and ideas via the scientific method.

Being skeptical of everything makes as little a contribution as believing every piece of nonsense. For me the key is being scientific in ones approach....again i would say that as long as nonsense attacks on science were not the norm, and ridiculous ideas of the world were not being trolled out - no problems at all with good old fashioned debate.... O0

[John Jackson]

i would say that as long as nonsense attacks on science were not the norm, and ridiculous ideas of the world were not being trolled out - no problems at all with good old fashioned debate.... O0


Agreed. It's the silliness I want to avoid not the debate.

So, I'll Feng Shui the board a bit :D and put a section up for debating paranormal investigations. O0

[tkingdoll]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having extra sections dedicated to discussing topics like paranormal investigations, the trouble starts when we have to actively promote it to woos in order to get them to participate. If we were outnumbered (like at PA), the entire forum would decline into a woo frenzy pretty quickly.

[median]

If we were outnumbered (like at PA), the entire forum would decline into a woo frenzy pretty quickly.

Outnumbered? Wherever did you get that impression, Teek? ;D

Point taken though.

Perhaps instead of a forum we should just expand on our paranormal explanations page. Perhaps create a type of dialogue putting arguments from both sides. Very few types seem to exist that put forward rational arguments of paranormal experience.

[Dr B]

I think thats an excellent point Median.

I am all for mutual debate and the entertaining of ideas - with the intention of working thorugh them in a legitimate fashion of course O0

John has put up a new section under 'Investigations'. I also hope (when things die down abit at work) to provide some essays / material for UKS with these precise aims in mind. Maybe you would like to help me on these (proof-read and comments etc)? Let me know...

O0

[John Jackson]

Yes, I've made another forum. I should probably name it something better though.

We should keep it for a more serious look at the issues of paranormal research etc. O0

[median]

Maybe you would like to help me on these (proof-read and comments etc)? Let me know...


Be happy to, Doc O0