Is the recession a hoax?

[hughs]

I'm new to the community here but have been looking with interest at the threads that have been posted over the past few weeks so I thought I would join in so I could post. I've been watching the news of the credit crunch with growing trepidation - it all just seems too unreal. I have been thinking for a while that we're being taken for a ride and then I read about this guys called Robert Higgs who basically comes out and says that those in power are claiming a credit crisis to unbalance our financial institutions I can't give you the link to the story but if you google Robert Higgs, you can look at the claims yourselves.

Then I read about this other guy based in Brussels - Dr Reinout Bracke - whose research on the global financial crisis basically tallies with Higgs' - they can find nothing in the statistics that prove that the recession is nothing but a hoax. There's a story on Indymedia about it.
What do you guys all think of it?

:undecided:

[Tim the Mage]

I'm new to the community here but have been looking with interest at the threads that have been posted over the past few weeks so I thought I would join in so I could post. I've been watching the news of the credit crunch with growing trepidation - it all just seems too unreal. I have been thinking for a while that we're being taken for a ride and then I read about this guys called Robert Higgs who basically comes out and says that those in power are claiming a credit crisis to unbalance our financial institutions I can't give you the link to the story but if you google Robert Higgs, you can look at the claims yourselves.

Then I read about this other guy based in Brussels - Dr Reinout Bracke - whose research on the global financial crisis basically tallies with Higgs' - they can find nothing in the statistics that prove that the recession is nothing but a hoax. There's a story on Indymedia about it.
What do you guys all think of it?

:undecided:

It's bollocks...I don't even need to look up the article to tell you that. There is some evidence that the so-called "credit crunch" was rather over-played - it's only high profile property markets and unsecured lending that's been hit. Structured business lending hasn't really stopped. That is the point Robert Higgs is making (http://mises.org/story/3288)

But this is a real recession...people really are losing their jobs, people really are going out of business and the asset price bubble has burst.

If you're asking whether Government is to blame - well yes it is. If you're suggesting Governments created the thing deliberately, I find that pretty hard to believe - most elected officials are stupid but not that stupid.

[Matt]

I have been thinking for a while that we're being taken for a ride and then I read about this guys called Robert Higgs who basically comes out and says that those in power are claiming a credit crisis to unbalance our financial institutions I can't give you the link to the story but if you google Robert Higgs, you can look at the claims yourselves.

Really? Is that the same Robert Higgs who 6 months ago was saying that collapse was inevitable?

http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=186

[Mulder]

... who basically comes out and says that those in power are claiming a credit crisis to unbalance our financial institutions ...

Just about every major disaster that happens seems to have been planned by those who wish to destabilize the world and so take control themselves. And yet, here we are after all these disasters and no one new has taken over yet (more's the pity). How many disasters do we have to endure before these people finally come out and start ruling?

I, for one, am completely fed up with it. They should either just get on and take over or stop causing mayhem all the time and blaming it on other people. What a way to secretly run the world!

[Legaleagle]

As a businessman who has seen his turnover halved in the last 18 months, having been brought to the cusp of bankruptcy just to keep trading, and personally having to sit down 24 of my hardworking and blameless employees to explain to them that I can't afford to pay them anymore and that they are redundant, I find the notion that the recession is a hoax quite offensive.

[bindeweede]

As a businessman who has seen his turnover halved in the last 18 months, having been brought to the cusp of bankruptcy just to keep trading, and personally having to sit down 24 of my hardworking and blameless employees to explain to them that I can't afford to pay them anymore and that they are redundant, I find the notion that the recession is a hoax quite offensive.

Sad to read that post - and sad for those who no longer have a job. Do you mind if I ask where, in your opinion, the blame lies? Some here just blame HMG, but I really wonder if it is just as simple as that.

[Tim the Mage]

Sad to read that post - and sad for those who no longer have a job. Do you mind if I ask where, in your opinion, the blame lies? Some here just blame HMG, but I really wonder if it is just as simple as that.

Bindeweede (jus' love the tag) - would that life were so simple. Bubbles are unnatural (I think there's some real science there or is it unstable) and they go pop! With the joys of glorious hindsight we can pin down some... No we can't - there are still academic rows going on about the tulip bubble in Holland.


...all I can say is look for the fraud.

[Legaleagle]

Sad to read that post - and sad for those who no longer have a job. Do you mind if I ask where, in your opinion, the blame lies? Some here just blame HMG, but I really wonder if it is just as simple as that.

My own problems have been caused by lack of activity in the housing market. My Law practice is heavily reliant on conveyancing work. Work all but dried up sometime around October 2007 and only started picking up again January 2009.

I think it was the sub-prime scandal which exposed the housing bubble for what it was. When the mortgage companies realised they were exposed to huge losses they withdrew mortgage funding from the market completely, and you can imagine, without mortgages there ain't gonna be a lot of people moving house. This caused a freefall price crash.

However, with house prices being quite a bargain now, especially to those with cash to spend, things are picking up quite a bit, so I am optimistic. But it will take me years to recover from this in a personal sense.

I don't really blame the government as such, although they could have stepped in and damped down the market earlier if they had wanted to. I still don't think we have learned the lesson in this Country by the way, that House price inflation is a bad thing. In what other sector of the economy is price inflation in yearly double digits considered a good thing?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

On a Body-building forum I also post on, there are basically people from all walks of life and doing all sorts of jobs.

There have been a number of threads about the impact to people's jobs. Many are being laid off, work is extremely short, and pay cuts and freezes are common.

It does seem that manual/skilled professions linked to building are certainly worst hit. Personally, I'm not getting a pay rise this year for first time ever. Although depending on news in the next 2-3 weeks as life insurers report results, I'll be happy if industry is still a viable proposition come end of March.

[Croydon Bob]

there are still academic rows going on about the tulip bubble in Holland.The prevalent theory today is that it is an urban legend and didn't actually happen. At least, it wasn't a 'bubble', it was just a price fluctuation caused in part by the lull in the Thirty Year War.

[Mulder]

Bubbles are an extreme form of fashion. When everyone else is doing something, apparently profitably, it is difficult to resist the peer pressure. Anyone in a bank in the last few years who pointed out the folly of securitising bad loans would have seen their career stall at best.

Bubbles are like a sort of collective madness. I remember vividly the dotcom bubble. The idea was simple - the internet gave you instant access to billions of potential customers. And setting up a commercial website cost peanuts. It looked like a no-brainer.

I'm sure everyone here realises that it is a lot harder than that to make money from the web (look at Amazon). But when a simple idea captures the imagination, it takes a strong dose of reality (like the credit crunch) to destroy it.

[lookaroundyou]

Dr Reinout Bracke - whose research on the global financial crisis basically tallies with Higgs' - they can find nothing in the statistics that prove that the recession is nothing but a hoax




Hughs - welcome to the community, I too am a relative newbie and am really glad to find somewhere where all opinions are heard. Anyway, I personally believe that the recession is a hoax, there are real victims here, but I believe the problem has been faked by greater forces.

I'd also like to thank you for bringing up Dr. Bracke, who is a great leader in his field but is hardly ever mentioned in newspaper articles (I wonder why..) about restoring our economic system. There is an article about him I found on a site at hardy25truth.blogspot.com it's really informative and interesting. I'm trying to get a copy of his monograph but it's a bit of an internet mission!

[Croydon Bob]

It seems to me that it is Dr Reinout Bracke who is the hoax, not the recession. He doesn't appear to work for, or have any connection to, The Center for European Renewal as claimed. And I note that both 'hughs' and 'lookaroundyou' have a similar, slightly awkward, style of writing. 'Both' from the Netherlands?

[Croydon Bob]

Perhaps 'hughs' and/or 'lookaroundyou' would like to comment on my suggestion that they are the same person and that Dr Reinout Bracke either doesn't exist at all or is, again, the same one person? Could John J confirm my prediction that they have the same IP? Thus proving that I have psychic powers (or is it psychotic powers?).

[WeTheSheeple]

Just about every major disaster that happens seems to have been planned by those who wish to destabilize the world and so take control themselves. And yet, here we are after all these disasters and no one new has taken over yet (more's the pity). How many disasters do we have to endure before these people finally come out and start ruling?

I, for one, am completely fed up with it. They should either just get on and take over or stop causing mayhem all the time and blaming it on other people. What a way to secretly run the world!My sentiments exactly! Hey, Mulder, have you read Jon Ronson's 'Them: Adventures With Extremists?' Hilarious!

[Craig]

The recession is very real. Since I started getting money when I was 16, I was always good about not overspending, I never borrow or run up debt and since age 18 I have saved a lot in the banks.

Now, I save no more, theres no reason too, the lack of interest has killed the incentive. However, I stockpile cash, so far the pile is very big. I've been good with money and have become a victim to some greedy assholes. >:D

[skbuncks]

The recession is very real. Since I started getting money when I was 16, I was always good about not overspending, I never borrow or run up debt and since age 18 I have saved a lot in the banks.

Now, I save no more, theres no reason too, the lack of interest has killed the incentive. However, I stockpile cash, so far the pile is very big. I've been good with money and have become a victim to some greedy assholes. >:D

I, for one, welcome my new sponsor O0

skb

[bindeweede]

Now, I save no more, theres no reason too, the lack of interest has killed the incentive. However, I stockpile cash, so far the pile is very big. I've been good with money and have become a victim to some greedy assholes. >:D

I am always slow, but on another thread you say you are happy with 0.5% interest. How have you " been good with money and have become a victim to some greedy assholes.?

Perhaps the word "not" is missing.

[Dale Kendrick]

I'm new to the community here but have been looking with interest at the threads that have been posted over the past few weeks so I thought I would join in so I could post. I've been watching the news of the credit crunch with growing trepidation - it all just seems too unreal. I have been thinking for a while that we're being taken for a ride and then I read about this guys called Robert Higgs who basically comes out and says that those in power are claiming a credit crisis to unbalance our financial institutions I can't give you the link to the story but if you google Robert Higgs, you can look at the claims yourselves.

Then I read about this other guy based in Brussels - Dr Reinout Bracke - whose research on the global financial crisis basically tallies with Higgs' - they can find nothing in the statistics that prove that the recession is nothing but a hoax. There's a story on Indymedia about it.
What do you guys all think of it?

:undecided:

The answer is easy to work out in 4 questions to the populous in the Uk today,

1. Where have all our manufacturing base gone to in the world today.
2. Who buys the cheap goods made by those people today.
3. What happens when we buy the cheap goods.
4. What skills are we all learning that will help you and yours today for our tomorrows.

Fiction or not the answer is staring us all in the face, we have become a next day nation, of office workers and managers all fighting for the remaining spoils, we have become an nation of foooled car boot fools that will simply buy into the illuminati dream of well being and consumerism and globalisation that is destroying us all from within, if we fly with the crows we will be shot with the crows.

DDS.

[Harryprice]

The answer is easy to work out in 4 questions to the populous in the Uk today,

1. Where have all our manufacturing base gone to in the world today.
2. Who buys the cheap goods made by those people today.
3. What happens when we buy the cheap goods.
4. What skills are we all learning that will help you and yours today for our tomorrows.


OK. I'll have a go ...

1. Robots (soon!)
2. Everyone.
3. We save money.
4. Invention.

[Dale Kendrick]

OK. I'll have a go ...

1. Robots (soon!)
2. Everyone.
3. We save money.
4. Invention.

1) Chinese human robots on 90.00 pounds a month
2) the 1.2 billion hungry and starving and 55,000 who die every day who have nothing whatsoever so we can.
3) Save money today and have your jobs taken away and have no money later.
4) Invention is the mother of all slaves today, backed by money.

Facts not fiction which we all do not want to know about, making someone work for nothing and giving others something for nothing is what is destroying us all.

[Harryprice]

2) the 1.2 billion hungry and starving and 55,000 who die every day who have nothing whatsoever so we can.

You asked 'Who buys the cheap goods made by those people today.' but you seem to have answered some other question. Loads of people buy cheap goods, including those who make them.


3) Save money today and have your jobs taken away and have no money later.

Whose jobs? I thought you said these cheap goods were already made by the Chinese. And what happens to those Chinese if we stop buying their goods?


4) Invention is the mother of all slaves today, backed by money.

What exactly does that mean. It sounds like a slogan or sound bite but doesn't make any sense. Invention is the ultimate wealth creator in the West. Whose designs do you think the Chinese are using to make their cheap goods? And if we in the West stopped inventing, who would that benefit exactly?

[Dale Kendrick]

You asked 'Who buys the cheap goods made by those people today.' but you seem to have answered some other question. Loads of people buy cheap goods, including those who make them.

Seems I don't have all the aswers or the world wouldn't be in the situation today, buying to many cheap goods this is one of the problems, if we went for local, quality not quantity it would make more scense quality without it costing the earth is far more kinder to any enviornment, especially our immediate one.

Whose jobs? I thought you said these cheap goods were already made by the Chinese. And what happens to those Chinese if we stop buying their goods?

Then we set them free from the Roths and Rockies of this world, who control it and the misery they so blindly let go in order of making money, as China develops we degrade daily, the same thing will happen to these people when the market is saturated with cheap labour goods,better to let them down sooner than later, its happening to us right now and has been since we rented one of their colonies, each time we had a boom to bust more left our shore and has never come back, all those jobs we have lots will be forever, or until we can equal them for labour, time will tell I guess.

What exactly does that mean. It sounds like a slogan or sound bite but doesn't make any sense. Invention is the ultimate wealth creator in the West. Whose designs do you think the Chinese are using to make their cheap goods? And if we in the West stopped inventing, who would that benefit exactly?

The slogan was built on our own backs, save slavery in the USA, the creative minds from this country have either gone to where the money is or never get a look in because the invention has no monetary value, we will never stop inventing here, but if you take the percentage of similar minds in China alone, once they get the basics we will no longer be able to compete in that situation PHP either.

Its all down to consumerism and globalisation, which certain parts of the world have not been given the chance to develope with their own resorces, Africa come to mind, we in the west are now trying to say to the rest of the world who want to develope on their own term with their own minerals not to do what we have done because its going to pollute the world even more,

Yet we are encouraging this on a vast scale in China for the benefit of cheaper goods, we are not being charged fairly by the way, because what you think of a cheap item has many hundreds of percent added for what they are actuallt paying for it at the manufacturing side, so both side are being exploited in a big way while the few get rich, I'm not the only one who knows or thinks the same, what lies on or beneath this planet should be shared out equally, I know that's the way it is right now, but no body could argue against this fact surely.

It is a very complicate isue and there is way to much to write down here at once, but you can safely say that we are cutting out own long term throat by buying into the cheap dream.

[Harryprice]

OK tell me what I should do!

Stop buying Chinese goods? Set up a factory in England (I warn you, I would staff it with robots and a couple of enigineers)? Invent something? Give money to the poor? Start a charity? Sit around and whinge about how England doesn't make anything any more? Buy shares in Illuminati Co? Start a conspiracy theory website?


Seems I don't have all the aswers or the world wouldn't be in the situation today, buying to many cheap goods this is one of the problems, if we went for local, quality not quantity it would make more scense quality without it costing the earth is far more kinder to any enviornment, especially our immediate one.

Are you implying Chinese goods are low quality? Like mobile phones, cameras, TVs, computers etc. They may be made by American, Japanese or European companies but most of the manufacturing happens in China (check your box!). Do you have a problem with these products?

[Dale Kendrick]

OK tell me what I should do!

Stop buying Chinese goods? Set up a factory in England (I warn you, I would staff it with robots and a couple of enigineers)? Invent something? Give all my money (ha ha!) to the poor? Sit around and whinge about how England doesn't make anything any more? Start a conspiracy theory website?

I couldn't nor wouldn't tell you what to do, that's not right, but what we do for ourselves, does make a real difference,

Once we have all bought into the cheap market and there is nobody left to go to, what do you think is going to happen to the things you reley upon,

We buy only local, food/meat etc, which comes from only a 15 mile radius, we make our own footware because I can do that through the trade, make our own woolens and other clothing on machinery we also made ourselves and have machinery that doesn't need electricity, recycle everything we can, and still have a very comfortable life style, I could never knowingly buy food from countries like Israel that use that money to harm a single innocent.

We are proof and part of a group that work to live, not live to work, only work when we have to and have helped many others to go the same way, the more we remove ourselves from the cruel consumerist world the happier we have become, what we do doesn't effect others in other countries, if we all thought the same it could be so much better, less can most definately be more.

[Harryprice]

Once we have all bought into the cheap market and there is nobody left to go to, what do you think is going to happen to the things you reley upon,

I've no idea - please tell me!


We buy only local, food, which comes from only a 15 mile radius, we make our own footware because I can do that through the trade, make our own woolens and other clothing on machinery we also made ourselves and have machinery that doesn't need electricity, recycle everything we can, and still have a very comfortable life style,

I am useless at making things, what am I supposed to do?


I could never knowingly buy food from countries like Israel that use that money to harm a single innocent.

Who IS this unfortunate innocent? Are there any countries that DON'T harm anyone?


We are proof and part of a group that work to live, not live to work, only work when we have to and have helped many others to go the same way, the more we remove ourselves from the cruel consumerist world the happier we have become, what we do doesn't effect others in other countries, if we all thought the same it could be so much better, less can most definately be more.

I see you use a computer. Do you have a TV and mobile phone?

[Dale Kendrick]

I've no idea - please tell me!

They will have complete control so there will be nowhere else to go or make a valid choice.

I am useless at making things, what am I supposed to do?

Ask someone with an intresting skill to show you what to do, so that you can make something, using something that one has made and used is a very satisfying feeling, makes me want to do more.

Who IS this unfortunate innocent? Are there any countries that DON'T harm anyone?

Any victim of an air burst phos weapons that are also banned bt the Geneve convention in Gaza, bought and paid for by countires who buy their blood money vedgetables and other food stuff from countries like Israel, again fact not fiction, broadcasedt live on the BBC.

Unfortunately not at the moment, but two wrongs don't make a right, if we could all simply do more loving instead of fighting, cruelty would come crashing down, don't buy into or pay taxes towards a system that goes against humanity and it would all stop.

I see you use a computer. Do you have a TV and mobile phone?

Don't watch TV, mobile phone PAYG, computer yes, did a full course on becoming a web-master, comes in handy to earn an extra shilling from home every now and then.

[Harryprice]

Don't watch TV, mobile phone PAYG, computer yes, did a full course on becoming a web-master, comes in handy to earn an extra shilling from home every now and then.


You're not bothered that computers and mobiles are made in China, then?

[skbuncks]

You're not bothered that computers and mobiles are made in China, then?

Maybe he could make his own from double sided sellatape and empty washing up liquid bottles...

skb

[Dale Kendrick]

You're not bothered that computers and mobiles are made in China, then?

My lap top was a second hand gift mobile second hand, we have only got three chinese products in our home, they were all second hand long before we adopted our non slavery consumerist ideals.

If we all start somewhere and looked into the hurt that this causes then we might think about it as we continue to shrink and become pawns in the whole proces of globalisation which will eventually destroy us along with nature, I really believe and have come to recognise that consumerism and greed is causing most of our problems today.

There is an age old motto that says,

Making someone work for nothing and giving other something for nothing doesn't work for the whole.

Which can be linked to every walk of life and postition in society today, but I musn't preach, I must do as I see fit.

[skbuncks]

You're not bothered that computers and mobiles are made in China, then?My lap top was a second hand gift mobile second hand, we have only got three chinese products in our home, they were all second hand long before we adopted our non slavery consumerist ideals.


Would you like to answer HP's questions by stating whether it bothers you or not?

skb

ETA: I would also like you to explain why it matters whether your products are first, second or even n'th hand.

[Croydon Bob]

There is an age old motto that says,

Making someone work for nothing and giving other something for nothing doesn't work for the whole.


No. There isn't.

It is something that an illiterate loony who posts on the Icke forums as "rollotomaz1" says however. He credits it to his Grandfather.

[Harryprice]

My lap top was a second hand gift mobile second hand, we have only got three chinese products in our home, they were all second hand long before we adopted our non slavery consumerist ideals.

Why are you against 'non slavery'?


If we all start somewhere and looked into the hurt that this causes then we might think about it as we continue to shrink and become pawns in the whole proces of globalisation which will eventually destroy us along with nature, I really believe and have come to recognise that consumerism and greed is causing most of our problems today.

So should we, as consumers, be demanding more expensive products? And should we not care what happens to the Chinese who will lose their jobs as a result? But wait, if we buy more expensive products we'll need higher wages which will increase inflation and unemployment.


Making someone work for nothing and giving other something for nothing doesn't work for the whole.

Is that really an old motto because they usually make more sense than this one. What does it actually mean, in plain English?

[moltenentity]

Yes it is. It has been executed purposefully as all recessions are. Watch the Money Masters documentary or Money as debt documentary. The central banks control the flow of false money which is based on thin air and they can create a recession when ever they feel they need one to help their agendas.

[chaggle]

Yes it is. It has been executed purposefully as all recessions are. Watch the Money Masters documentary or Money as debt documentary. The central banks control the flow of false money which is based on thin air and they can create a recession when ever they feel they need one to help their agendas.

Hello and welcome:wavey:

I don't see how this recession has 'helped their agendas'. Could you explain?

[reptilians]

Sad to read that post - and sad for those who no longer have a job. Do you mind if I ask where, in your opinion, the blame lies? Some here just blame HMG, but I really wonder if it is just as simple as that.


As with most things everyone is to blame a little. It's not any one person, organization, company or Governments fault.

[Croydon Bob]

As with most things everyone is to blame a little. It's not any one person, organization, company or Governments fault.

Well, you would say that. I read on the Icke forums that it was all the fault of reptilians. ;)

[Drop Bear]

An interesting question,which an Australian could reasonably ask.There isn't a recession here.--Full employment,low inflation, robust housing sector,prices continuing to rise as demand exceeds supply.


However,I moved all investments out of property immediately the US sub prime thing began,and then moved all share based investments into money.

Had I not made those moves, I would have lost over 30% of my capital,instead of none. In the last two years the income from my super investments has halved.-the share market remains bearish, so my investments are low risk,low return.