The letter H

[Harry Hotspur]

When I look in a dictionary I find the word 'aitch', meaning 'the eigth letter of the modern English alphabet'.
Can it be correct to spell the word aitch using a letter than it is defining?
Sort of chicken and egg...................

[Jocky]

Ah, the wonderful English language. I suppose another obvious example of this phenomenon is "double-U"

If you're willing to be phonetic about it, all of the following are recognisable examples of spelt-out letter names which don't use the letter in question at all:

see
eph
jee
aye
keu
yoo
eks

And if you're being pedantic about it, "aitch" does use the letter H, just not in the first position, just like:

ell
emm
enn
arr
ess
ex
wy

I must be really bored today :)

[Harry Hotspur]

I'm not sure there's any pedantry in my question. And I concur that I only offered one example from many. It's just can/may one use the letter h in its own definition, when in truth the letter h doesn't really 'exist' until it's defined (?).

[Jocky]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of pedantry 8)

A kind of circular definition dilemma, you mean? ISWYM.

BTW, Does your username reflect a particular fondness for the letter H? Or do you just like Medieval Kings? Or are you a Spurs fan? :)

[Harry Hotspur]

I use that username on a variety of forums. I first chose it when I came back to England (spent 13 years in the USA) and found a forum run by an old friend of mine. He knew me as a Spurs fan (since the very early 50s) and so I used it to string him along for a while.
I have no particular views on alliteration, the letter H or dead monarchy :)
And ye,s, the use of the defined within the definition. ??? ???

[median]

Holy voiceless glottal fricative!

[SKIRRID5]

Of course, half the population make it a bit more logical by pronouncing it "Haitch".

[dalriada]

Strange but true- for Northern Ireland purposes those who say "aitch" are most probably Protestant and those who say "haitch" are most likely Catholic...

http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/pubs/ozwords/June_98/2._aitch.htm
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362-bohnert.htm

[bobdezon]

Holy voiceless glottal fricative! Batman?

[DrS]

Robin, surely! ^-^

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Strange but true- for Northern Ireland purposes those who say "aitch" are most probably Protestant and those who say "haitch" are most likely Catholic...

http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/pubs/ozwords/June_98/2._aitch.htm
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362-bohnert.htm

I say "aitch", but then I am a protestant atheist O0

[bindeweede]

I say "aitch", but then I am a protestant atheist O0

I'm sure it is totally irrational, but people who say "haitch" really annoy me. I don't know why.

I'm an "aitch" person, as Farside - Methodist - Presbyterian - Atheist.

[Fiona]

How do you feel about J, then?

[DrS]

In Spain, it's one of the few ways to get the "h" sound!

[Fiona]

I was really wondering if Bindeweede felt strongly on the question of Jay or Ji ;)

[bindeweede]

I was really wondering if Bindeweede felt strongly on the question of Jay or Ji ;)
Fiona,

Isn't "Ji" the way Cockerneys pronounce it?

Jay does not present me with any problems::).

[Fiona]

Don't know about cockneys. I say Ji cos I was taught to rhyme the letter with I not K when I was learning the alphabet. At least I always thought that this was the basis of the difference

[Cuddles]

Don't know about cockneys. I say Ji cos I was taught to rhyme the letter with I not K when I was learning the alphabet. At least I always thought that this was the basis of the difference

I've never even heard of it being "Ji" before. That's just weird. Of course, it should really be "Juh" anyway.

[Fiona]

You saying I am weird, Cuddles?!? ;D

[Nudles]

I'm sure it is totally irrational, but people who say "haitch" really annoy me. I don't know why.

I'm an "aitch" person, as Farside - Methodist - Presbyterian - Atheist.

I can completely understand where you are coming from, although I say H with and without a H at the start interchangeably (unintentionally) myself and don't find either "Haitch" or "Aitch" irritating, but I do notice when people say either of them. (I prefer to type it as a h, rather than an h though. "An Herb", as many Americans would say, does erk me sometimes.)

My personal annoyance is when when people say "how" as "haw-eeh" and now as "now-eeh'" or "nee".

I come from an area that calls itself Catholic (although I am pretty sure most of them have not read a bible or listened to any of the Popes rubbish), and luckily from a family who who thinks it's all a load of twaddle.

I've noticed that "Haitch" is used by mostly people from Catholic areas and "Aitch" from Protestant, but I have some of friends who contradict that.

(Conjecture)

From reading a few years ago, it seems to have come from native (so to speak) Irish people in general (As expected I guess). They also have it in Australia, with communities of people there with Irish links saying "Haitch".

The sectarian divide here, I imagine, has of course has kept the pronunciations locked mostly in certain communities, "now-eeh" there will probably be an accelerated transition from "Haitch" to "aitch", but still probably not within the next few decades.

Maybe... (obligatory smiley face here)

[Pebble]

I come from an area that calls itself Catholic (although I am pretty sure most of them have not read a bible or listened to any of the Popes rubbish), and luckily from a family who who thinks it's all a load of twaddle.

I've noticed that "Haitch" is used by mostly people from Catholic areas and "Aitch" from Protestant, but I have some of friends who contradict that.

The sectarian divide here, I imagine, has of course has kept the pronunciations locked mostly in certain communities, "now-eeh" there will probably be an accelerated transition from "Haitch" to "aitch", but still probably not within the next few decades.
(obligatory smiley face here)

A Catholic Atheist then! Beware of the Haich on Shankill

[Nudles]

A Catholic Atheist then! Beware of the Haich on Shankill

Haha. Duly noted. I'll be sure not to recite the alphabet when walking there.

Reminds me of conversations like this from the past for some reason.

"What religion are you?"
"None"
"You must be something... humm, what religion was your mother?"
"None"
"What about your grandfather then..? :confused:"

[Pebble]

Haha. Duly noted. I'll be sure not to recite the alphabet when walking there.

Reminds me of conversations like this from the past for some reason.


"You must be something... humm, what religion was your mother?"
"None"
:"

Catholic, not my fault; honest!

[Nudles]

Catholic, not my fault; honest!

Better than "Ex-Protestant" heathen, not good in the eyes of whom ever would ask such a question. :tongue:

And to get back on topic, to the original poster, I guess it is correct, since it is that way?

Also, the egg was first :P.

[Harry Hotspur]

..... "An Herb", as many Americans would say, does erk me sometimes.)

Ooh, me too. But many Americans pronounce herb as erb http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb092.gif


....
And to get back on topic, to the original poster, I guess it is correct, since it is that way?

That, I find a little unsatisfactory and could lead to a whole new can of worms http://emoticons4u.com/crazy/1088.gif



Also, the egg was first :P.

The curate's egg? http://emoticons4u.com/happy/010.gif

[Nudles]

Ooh, me too. But many Americans pronounce herb as erb http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb092.gif

Which is what bothers me, I find the ones who purposely say "a herb" to be sometimes pretentious though ;).
It bothers me insomuch as I notice it and it may cause a very short loss of concentration.



That, I find a little unsatisfactory and could lead to a whole new can of worms http://emoticons4u.com/crazy/1088.gif

There is no hard and fast rules concerning things such as that (correct me if I;m wrong), just because it seems uncomfortable does not make it controversial. It is that way because that is how it evolved, the English language is far from perfect, nor do I view what you bring up as an imperfection of any sort.

Is there really anything to actually ponder here?^-^




The curate's egg? http://emoticons4u.com/happy/010.gif

Nah, the pre-proto-chicken. :tongue:
In that case, the question would be, which came first, the chicken, soul or the egg? And we all know answers are easy when you make things up, the soul of course! Followed by mysterious ways.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

So Nudles, who do you think has the worst time in NI from their communities - protestant or catholic atheists.

[Nudles]

So Nudles, who do you think has the worst time in NI from their communities - protestant or catholic atheists.

Well, I can not speak for anyone else, so here is some anecdotes for ya ;).
I've never had any trouble what so ever being an atheist. I don't know any real(=P) religious people, practically everyone I know would be going to some form of hell, if it were not fictional. My grand mother is the only religious person I know (as in goes to church, sometimes, even when its not x-mas ;P) and her view is "Fair enough, if that's what you "want" to believe".

Most of my friends are atheist or agnostic, from both sides of the ethereal divide. But they don't talk about it much, it's not worth thinking about to most of them, they simply don't care but are not blind sceptics, but quite passive in their approach. I don't have any "Christian" friends.

I find it hard to connect catholic and protestant with religion (in Northern Ireland), to me all it means is "Nationalist or Unionist area".

I didn't even know what a catholic was until I was about 8, when an older friend told me she was a catholic, to which I had to go ask my mother what they are :P.

As a child I was somewhat atheistic by default, only in my teens did I actually give philosophy etc. much thought.

So basically, I've never received any grieve, or seen anyone get any grief because of their lack of religion. Or at least from personal experience.

So through the process of elimination I would guess that atheists would get a harder time(as your question seems to imply) in the unionist(your experience), as, being from a nationalist area(my experience), I've never seen anything remotely like that.

I would be interested in you personal perception of the "situation", as well as others.

P.S. It's going to take a while to get used to the title "Catholic Atheist" Lol. I don't refer to myself as catholic, never have, not even in the community secular sense. Unless it is of course meant in parody, then that's a different thing all together.

[Fiona]

No it is quite a common exchange in Glasgow

What religion are you
I am an atheist

Pause

A catholic atheist or a protestant atheist?

[Nudles]

No it is quite a common exchange in Glasgow

What religion are you
I am an atheist

Pause

A catholic atheist or a protestant atheist?

Ah I see. I guess; "What religion are you" is somewhat synonymous with:

"What religion do you, your mother, your neighbours or the local community that you grew up in (or are living in), identify as themselves as?". ;D

Semantics can lead to quite a lot of confusion sometimes. :cheesy:

[Fiona]

Aye. In polite circles the same information is elicited by
"what school did you go to" or
"what team do you support"

I have spent a whole evening with a colleague who could not do without this information and since I would not answer any of these questions he was reduced to speculating on the basis of my approach to other things. He eventually concluded I have a "catholic cast of mind". Do you think I should worry? :cheesy:

[Nudles]

Haha, sounds like a "interesting" guy. ;)

I think that question is better directed at your colleague. :tongue:

You might have to worry about your boredom levels when speaking to him though, if that's the thing he likes to spend the whole evening trying to work out. ^-^

Tell him you're Mormon, in my (limited) experience catholic's nor protestants like those (or know what they are; "But you seem so normal?!") O0. It might make his mind explode and shatter his pre-conceived stereo-types and make him realise that he should be interested in other things about his work colleagues. Rather than what sub-set of the Christian community they may have come from. On second thoughts, I refer you back to the second line of this paragraph. :'(

[Fiona]

You might be right. But I think he would just ask " a catholic mormon or a protestant mormon?". He is not really religious in the sense of going to church or anything extreme like that. He is what is called a " cradle catholic" ^-^

[Nudles]

Yeah, if someone tells me they are of a certain Christian religion, the last thing that pops into my head is that they actually practice anything remotely religious, nor that they could define their own religion and tell you what separates it from another Christian religion.;D

Which is all the more ironic when is it used as a point of contention or segregation.

[dalriada]

Yeah, if someone tells me they are of a certain Christian religion, the last thing that pops into my head is that they actually practice anything remotely religious, nor that they could define their own religion and tell you what separates it from another Christian religion.;D



Great to see more "Norn Iron" people on here! O0 Sadly I have met quite a few people who are absolutely prepared to define their religious beliefs into the ground, and debate for hours on the finest points of the precise nature of the Trinity or Angels or the Timing of the Resurrection or whatever...but then again I did go to school in Portadown (which might explain a lot).

There's a great piece from Newton Emerson about how to deal with the overly zealous...concisely named Shouting at Christians (http://www.thevacuum.org.uk/issues/issues0120/issue10/is10artmybeef.html)

[Nudles]

I am surprised and pleased to see so many from this side of the water myself!

I guess I've been lucky to not really meet any (talkative) religious Zealots (personally) at all. I stayed in Portadown a few times with a friend, and she told me "Don't tell people your first name, where you are from or anything!", I was hoping then, and still am, that she was just paranoid. :sad:

I can empathise with Emerson somewhat. But.. I was walking with my father in Belfast centre and there was a similar speaker, it was embarrassing as my father started shouting at him and told him to "politely" to shove his condescending bullshit. As my face went red I pretended I was not with him for a little while, but I was secretly proud. :undecided:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Aye. In polite circles the same information is elicited by
"what school did you go to" or
"what team do you support"

I have spent a whole evening with a colleague who could not do without this information and since I would not answer any of these questions he was reduced to speculating on the basis of my approach to other things. He eventually concluded I have a "catholic cast of mind". Do you think I should worry? :cheesy:

Back in NI, my father was self-employed, and in the 80s when you took on a new employee you had to inform the authorities of that person's religion. This was an attempt to address the discrimination in the workplace - before that, most small firms and possibly a lot of larger ones, were almost totally comprised of workers from one side of the fence. I don't remember what the penalties were if you didn't employ a both catholics and protestants, but it was in the legislation.

Because you couldn't simply ask someone what religion they were, the information was obtained from asking what school they went to. There was a book which listed every school in the province and whether it was protestant or catholic or unknown. There weren't very many unknowns in there. I vividly remember the forms and books, as I used to do my dad's paye for him. :-X

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Great to see more "Norn Iron" people on here! O0 Sadly I have met quite a few people who are absolutely prepared to define their religious beliefs into the ground, and debate for hours on the finest points of the precise nature of the Trinity or Angels or the Timing of the Resurrection or whatever...but then again I did go to school in Portadown (which might explain a lot).

There's a great piece from Newton Emerson about how to deal with the overly zealous...concisely named Shouting at Christians (http://www.thevacuum.org.uk/issues/issues0120/issue10/is10artmybeef.html)

I always assumed you went to school in Ballymoney ;)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I am surprised and pleased to see so many from this side of the water myself!

I guess I've been lucky to not really meet any (talkative) religious Zealots (personally) at all. I stayed in Portadown a few times with a friend, and she told me "Don't tell people your first name, where you are from or anything!", I was hoping then, and still am, that she was just paranoid. :sad:



One of the guys I work with, his sister lived in Portadown in a mixed relationship. She woke one morning to find a partially exploded pipe bomb on her living room window sill.

My grandparents lived in a very protestant village near Ballymena, and my grandfather rented out a property on his land to a mixed marriage couple. They soon got their windows put in.

Unfortunately I think most people know several stories along these lines, and in many areas things are possibly worse now than they ever were. The lack of fighting between the paramilitaries, means they have a lot more time to focus on building their criminal empires and the local version of ethnic cleansing.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I would be interested in you personal perception of the "situation", as well as others.


I don't talk religion with my family, but I suspect they might do a fair degree of talking about it behind my back.

When I was over with my daughter, who would have been about 4 months old, a few months back, a family friend asked if (not when, which I thought was significant ;)) we would be getting her christened. I said we wouldn't, and he started talking about 'the Lord' ::). I said it would be up to her to decide if she ever wanted to get christed, but I could tell that he was not very impressed.

Similarly, when I got married a couple of years ago, it was in a registry office. Although no one ever mentioned it, I can imagine that a few tongues were wagging back home.

So really, I don't have a problem leaving my 'religion' behind, but that is only achieved by never talking about it!

[dalriada]

I always assumed you went to school in Ballymoney ;)

:smiley: My online alias is a tribute to my old office building at Jordanstown aka Hades county Antrim... (http://www.accommodation.ulster.ac.uk/images/Jordanstown/jcpic.jpg) >:D

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

:smiley: My online alias is a tribute to my old office building at Jordanstown aka Hades county Antrim... (http://www.accommodation.ulster.ac.uk/images/Jordanstown/jcpic.jpg) >:D

I only went to Jordanstown once, but it freaked me out! Like a dystopia for students....

[dalriada]

I only went to Jordanstown once, but it freaked me out! Like a dystopia for students....

Just imagine what it's like for the poor staff...

:boohoo:

(I love all these extra smilies- we even have a flying spaghetti monster I hadn't noticed before!)

[ptenisnet]

When I look in a dictionary I find the word 'aitch', meaning 'the eigth letter of the modern English alphabet'.
Can it be correct to spell the word aitch using a letter than it is defining?
Sort of chicken and egg...................

Getting back to the original question, definitions are not mathematics. You do not have to build up a definition out of first principles.

Yes, of course it is correct.

[Tim the Mage]

I'm sure it is totally irrational, but people who say "haitch" really annoy me. I don't know why.

I'm an "aitch" person, as Farside - Methodist - Presbyterian - Atheist.

Speaking as a left-footed bog-trotter - it's still 'aitch'. 'Twas always a class thing, for me - I'm way too middle class a Catholic to say 'Haitch'.

[lazerustheduck]

You might be right. But I think he would just ask " a catholic mormon or a protestant mormon?". He is not really religious in the sense of going to church or anything extreme like that. He is what is called a " cradle catholic" ^-^ The same thing happened to Warren Mitchell(Alf Garnett) who is Jewish, when moving to Northern Island he was asked the question and when he said he was Jewish they asked "but are you a catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew."

I moved to Glasgow from Blackpool, the first thing my wifes father asked was my name and was worried because it sounded catholic but apparently growing up in the Salvation Army was good enough.