Acupuncture 'no help for IVF'

[Cronan]

Hi everybody, I just signed up today. I'm a QuantDeveloper at a London Hedge Fund. My name is Ivan.

The BBC seem surprised that acupuncture turns out to have no value for IVF:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7495837.stm

They end the article with the following very funny (but also annoying) quotation:


But Paul Robin chairman the Acupuncture Society, said: "I'm really surprised by these findings.
"I've been treating people for twenty years and in my experience treatment does seem to improve their chances of becoming pregnant.
"This study has shown that there's no proof that acupuncture can help - so that suggests that there should be lots more studies to examine the question. "I'm convinced it can help."

[bindeweede]

Welcome, Ivan.
Yes, I saw the article too.




The complementary therapy has been used for centuries in China to aid female fertility and it is now available privately via some NHS clinics. But the London-based researchers told a European fertility conference an analysis of 13 trials covering almost 2,500 women did not show any benefits.

But Mr Robin is convinced, so............lots more studies.......obviously!

[Cronan]

DO you think he might perhaps be unaware that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or that his interesting anecdots don't constitute evidence? :smiley:

[filippo lippi]

It only takes one little prick...

[Mulder]

Hi everybody, I just signed up today. I'm a QuantDeveloper at a London Hedge Fund.

Jobs get more and more abstract all the time. They say if you can explain what your job is to your parents, it's not worth having. :smiley:

[Mongrel]

Jobs get more and more abstract all the time. They say if you can explain what your job is to your parents, it's not worth having. :smiley:

Got to move with the times Mulder ;)

Most <incomprehensible> Developer means "I'm a software developer" the <incomprehensible> bit normally means "It's a bit of software that is well known within the industry", often the hard part is finding what industry.

And to Cronan, it's never surprising that these sort of things make the news. What the Alt-Med industry lack in evidence they more than make up for in the PR department.

[Admin]

DO you think he might perhaps be unaware that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or that his interesting anecdots don't constitute evidence? :smiley:

It's usually people like him making the error of confirmation.

I've come across it several times where people, therapists or their assistants, claim that what they do really does work despite what others think because they've "seen it for themselves". People come for hypnotherapy/acupuncture/whatever and they achieve what they were after so it must work.

After arguing with a hypnotherapist's assistant about 'it definitely works' claims, I wrote this: http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=confirmation.php

It's a prime reason why things can appear to work yet there's nothing really going on. I expect that it's exactly the same thing going on with acupuncture and pregnancy rates with IVF users.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

When we were having IVF, my wife went for acupuncture after our first treatment, and before our second go.

It's one of these things that women will do now because it is part of the general advice they receive from internet forums, friends etc, and even from medical staff. I guess it's seen as something that will help with dealing with the general stress.

The big downside to it however, is that we had to repeat all our blood tests due to the acupuncture. For that reason alone, I would say it is more hassle than it is worth.

[tolman]

It's actually very interesting that, excepting mild reductions in pain, real or fake acupuncture don't even seem to work better than doing nothing, so it doesn't seem like there's even a placebo effect there.

Perhaps if the chairman of the Acupuncture Society is convinced that more studies are needed, his society will pay for them (to be independently conducted, of course)?
After all, it's his members who are profiting from offering a service which appears not to be any use.

Still, the studies already done are very useful, in that real doctors can explain that for IVF, acupuncture is pointless, which might help remove the pressure some people may feel that they should be trying everything that just might help, work, and/or that their well-meaning friends go on about.

[Admin]

It's actually very interesting that, excepting mild reductions in pain, real or fake acupuncture don't even seem to work better than doing nothing, so it doesn't seem like there's even a placebo effect there.

I would think that that's because getting pregnant isn't a subjective experience!

Things like pain or conditions that have a relatively large psychosomatic component to them (IBS for example) can respond well to placebo treatments but if there's a physical problem then it doesn't make a lot of difference, if any.

There's always the argument that relaxation (which is a feature of acupuncture) helps women get pregnant and it's often stated regarding this issue - but is that so or is it an assumption? Has it ever been shown that relaxation helps? Perhaps getting angry might help! Perhaps neither makes any difference.

I think the possible assumption may well arise from another claim regarding IVF treatments and that's that couples often get pregnant after they have stopped trying. i.e. they give up on the idea, forget about it and relax, and then the woman gets pregnant.

But again, is this true or is it the same bias as the acupuncturists make when only considering positive outcomes?

[tolman]

It is at least interesting in that it would appear that relaxation/stress reduction either doesn't happen, or doesn't make a difference.

The anecdotal cases of succeeding in pregnancy after giving up presumably apply to regular pregnancy following either trying IVF or sustained attempts at regular pregnancy?
It'd be hard to see someone as having given up when they're still trying direct medical intervention.

Even if those successes are simply down to chance (and after-effects of fertility drugs?), or not really applicable to people actually in IVF, it's an idea that people may have absorbed.

If a doctor can tell people going for IVF that whether or not acupuncture may make some people feel a bit better, it doesn't actually affect the odds of success, that can not only help people avoid wasting money, but save them from worrying at the time that they should be trying it, or, in cases where things don't work out, that if only they'd tried it, it might have helped.

[invisibleboy]

there has also been another study into acupuncture which even us sceptics will have to accept as proof of the effects of the treatment

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/acupuncture-good-for-covering-body-in-tiny-holes%2c-says-study-200807081080/


^-^

[puzzlebobble]

@invisible boy

But it wasn't double-blinded or randomised!

I don't believe it. ;)

[British Sceptic]

With ref to 'The daily mash' link, shouldnt that have been posted in the funnies thread, hardly the place for serious discussion of an alternative therapy,

things like this give beliefists ammunition against sceptics, charging them as nothing more than cynics.

I can see you were trying to make a joke but..........

In the fight against superstitious beliefs and flim flam this helps bury true scepticism.

Regards,

Den.

[bindeweede]

The "Daily Mash" link is in the humour area already.:smiley:

[tolman]

things like this give beliefists ammunition against sceptics, charging them as nothing more than cynics.
Personally, I don't think that in this case, the link was at all out of place.
What made the article funny was the fundamental truth underlying it, and the only person likely to take offence rather than see the joke would be someone who would be pretty much beyond hope anyway, and who would be almost as likely to take offence from someone daring to question their belief in a relentlessly respectful but unyielding way.

Taking offence is one of the defence mechanisms used by people who know they don't have any *real* evidence for what they want to believe.

[British Sceptic]

Apologies if i spoke out of turn its just a pet hate when things like this are ridiculed instead of viewed with evidence, this creates the difference between sceptic and cynic and gives beliefists tons of ammo if all you can do to an argument is ridicule it.

Anyway lets move on,

regards,

Den.:smiley:

[tolman]

Don't apologise for giving your opinion.

I do see where you're coming from, it's just this particular case I think it would only be people who really want to take offence who would be likely to.

A less obsessive believer who was an acupuncture user should be able to read the joke article and see the funny side.