The wrong people investigate ghosts!

[Mulder]

I recently read about an interesting haunting case in the US. It was very frustrating. There was some interesting photographic evidence that could easily have been tested to eliminate natural causes. Instead, it was just accepted at face value! The 'investigators' just talked about entities, as though a few fuzzy photos taken in unknown, uncontrolled cirmustances proved anything!

It is such a shame because hauntings are very interesting, even if you think there are no ghosts involved. The wrong people investigate hauntings!

[Matt]

It is such a shame because hauntings are very interesting, even if you think there are no ghosts involved. The wrong people investigate hauntings!

But does that stop the right people from investigating hauntings?

I don't much care if the wrong people investigate hauntings, I do care if the right people don't.

[bobdezon]

To be brutally honest, I concur. Groups who go on investigations and collect "evidence" usually have no idea what constitutes good evidence (or indeed any evidence at all) then they have taken their images, footage, evps etc thats as far as their "investimagation" goes. They dont perform interesting experiments, they do not understand how to eliminate bias from the results etc. It just seems like a complete waste of time, because nothing seem to come from this except reinforcement of bias.

[Mulder]

But does that stop the right people from investigating hauntings?

I don't much care if the wrong people investigate hauntings, I do care if the right people don't.

A few 'right' people investigate but they are in a tiny minority. Better than nothing, I suppose. I just get upset at all those wasted opportunities!

[Admin]

To be brutally honest, I concur. Groups who go on investigations and collect "evidence" usually have no idea what constitutes good evidence (or indeed any evidence at all) then they have taken their images, footage, evps etc thats as far as their "investimagation" goes. They dont perform interesting experiments, they do not understand how to eliminate bias from the results etc. It just seems like a complete waste of time

The big problem is that because they don't know how to investigate properly at all, if anything truly unusual or significant occurred, they wouldn't know how to spot it!

The most ardent ghost enthusiasts are probably the people least likely to discover a ghost (or whatever) should they exist!! ;D

Of course, ghosts most likely don't exist. However, this still means that ghost and haunting experiences need investigating and who knows what interesting results they may throw up?

[bobdezon]

I think most if not all are probably psychological in nature, or perhaps misatributation due to lack of understanding of the stimuli. I do hope theres at least one "real ghost" though, I mean how sweet would that be? O0

[Graham Lappin]

Does anyone know of any proper scientific investigations into ghosts and hauntings? Psychic ability has been tested and the books by Richard Wiseman demonstrate his investigations into everyday events that could otherwise be interpreted as paranormal. I am not aware of any bone fide scientific group doing any such studies into ghosts but this is the place to be put right on that one.

[Croydon Bob]

Does anyone know of any proper scientific investigations into ghosts and hauntings? Psychic ability has been tested and the books by Richard Wiseman demonstrate his investigations into everyday events that could otherwise be interpreted as paranormal. I am not aware of any bone fide scientific group doing any such studies into ghosts but this is the place to be put right on that one.

Wiseman has done ghosts. Hampton Court and Edinburgh.

The problem with "scientific" investigation of ghosts is that you don't find anything. Since every ghost sighting is either misinterpretation of data or hoax, there's nothing there if you do research properly. And who wants to spend week after week, month after month, visiting "haunted houses" only to find nothing at all.

I am reminded of one occasion when I was on the Kilroy TV show, subject "Ghosts". One of the skeptics pointed out that every story so far in the programme had involved someone waking up, or being in bed in the middle of the night. A woman said: "Well I certainly wasn't asleep when I had my experience ... blah blah ... and I was so frightened that I jumped out of bed at 2 in the morning!" There wasn't a single story with anything remotely resembling evidence to be investigated, there wasn't a single story that couldn't be explained away as dreaming and imagination. A couple of the "witnesses" very clearly had mental issues and should not have been exposed to ridicule on TV.

Generally, apart from obviously fake photos, the only "evidence" for ghosts these days are photos of "orbs", or "specks of dust" as people who aren't idiots call them.

We need some evidence that there is something there to investigate at all before talking about proper scientific investigation. If ghosts are worth bothering with then what about the tooth fairy? Why no proper scientific investigation of that, eh? Or the giant purple walrus that lives in my garden? Is the only reason we don't know much about it because nobody has conducted a proper investigation using real experiments?

[dalriada]

And who wants to spend week after week, month after month, visiting "haunted houses" only to find nothing at all.

A disturbing amount of people are prepared to do just that. However possibly you might be underestimating the appeal of hanging around for hours in the dark with members of the opposite sex for those with who may not stand up to much scrutiny in the daylight and who have time on their hands...

;)



If ghosts are worth bothering with then what about the tooth fairy? Why no proper scientific investigation of that, eh?

Exactly. Fairies are shockingly neglected by paranormalists and parapsychologists and in that Water Intention Experiment no one except Bunny and I are sparing a thought for the water pixies...

It's a travesty!!

:undecided:

[Graham Lappin]

We need some evidence that there is something there to investigate at all before talking about proper scientific investigation. If ghosts are worth bothering with then what about the tooth fairy?

Point taken. (dalriada - perhaps we should leave the water pixies to take care of themselves? >:D)

[Admin]

As for investigating haunt reports, I like this idea: http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Xenonormal.html

Most haunting reports are probably due to mundane factors but there must be some that require a much deeper investigation and understanding.

I like this because the idea is to look for natural, even if highly unusual, causes for these experiences. It is the correct way to do it IMO: understand and account for natural causes before assuming paranormal ones.

If hauntings are genuinely paranormal then this approach will also stand the best chance of discovering them as such in the same way that science hones in on 'truth' by attempting to falsify hypotheses and theories.

Here's an excellent example of research into a haunting that came up with a strong case for complex magnetic fields playing a part in inducing or enhancing haunt-type experiences: http://ejp.org.uk/ExampleArticles/Braithwaite-Townsend_EJP20.pdf

I don't know how much other work of this quality is being done. A few examples would be nice if anyone has any. O0

[Mulder]

.. Since every ghost sighting is either misinterpretation of data or hoax, there's nothing there if you do research properly. And who wants to spend week after week, month after month, visiting "haunted houses" only to find nothing at all. ...

As someone who has investigated many hauntings (with at least with some semblence of scientific objectivity), I cannot agree with this! I would say that MOST cases are misperception, a few are hallucination (eg sleep paralysis), a very small number are hoaxes (far fewer than you might imagine) while a small number remain unexplained. That isn't to say they won't be explained in future, either as science moves on or more information about the case becomes available. However, to say "every ghost sighting is either misinterpretation of data or hoax" does not accord with my experience nor that of other serious researchers.

When you get several independent witnesses (unaware of each other's reports or the reputation, if any, of a site) reporting the same thing in the same place over a period of time, it clearly merits investigation. Such cases do, indeed, deserve months of research.

However, many 'cases' these days are of the variety where it is unlikely that any serious case can be made to investigate a place on the basis of ancient, doubtful and inconsistent witness reports. Worse, it may be on the basis of previous extremely doubtful 'investigations'! These, I agree, are generally not worth the effort.

[Graham Lappin]

As someone who has investigated many hauntings (with at least with some semblence of scientific objectivity), I cannot agree with this!

The problem with ghost investigations that has been pointed out to me, and I have been persuaded by the argument - is why ghosts in particular? For ghosts to exist, then the laws of science as we know them would have to be so severely modified that such a supernatural phenomenon would be virtually impossible. Ghosts therefore, are surely in the same category as fairies, unicorns and wardrobe monsters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvIy_-os_gY&feature=related

and so why not investigate these as well, just as vigourously?

[Mulder]

I don't investigate ghosts specifically, I investigate hauntings. I would define a haunting as a specific location where several anomalous phenomena have been reported over a period of time. In fact, only a minority of hauntings involve sightings of ghosts. Most hauntings involve seemingly pointless, unexplained sounds, odd lights, odd sights, occasional apparent object movement ('apparent' because the objects are usually found to have moved rather than been observed so to do) and sometimes apparitions. There is, thus, not much to connect ghosts with hauntings.

The idea that ghosts cause hauntings is deeply ingrained in popular mythology. This is exploited by the TV ghost hunting programmes who use 'investigation techniques' based on that assumption. This is then imitated by ghost hunting groups.

Regarding fairies and so on. I would gladly investigate such phenomena. However, like UFOs they generally occur one time only at a particular location. Hauntings, by contrast, don't move.

[dalriada]

Apparently one of the most the important things to remember when investigating ghosts is To Never Inhale.

Seriously. This sort of careless breathing activity could get you well-and-truly haunted- at least according to the Parascience Website



"How then can these imprinted memories be replayed, this could be by a reverse of the recording mechanism for example - the witness has the correct brain physiology and is able to read these recordings as they are played back. Perhaps more simply, the witness may inhale a droplet of water vapour from the air that contains a memory imprinted within it - as this molecule reaches the brain it triggers a wave of copies across the Cerebral Spinal Fluid and thus the brain sees the event as a playback of the encoded events. "

(C)

I dread to think of the consequences of swallowing.....

[Mulder]

So exhaled water molecules act like DNA - somehow containing enough information to reproduce a complete moving image of the person they came from (all encoded in hydrogen bonds, presumably)! And then these molecules manage to make enough copies of themselves (by contact with others), despite dispersing into the atmosphere at around 2 m/s, to leave an 'image' in situ for years.

Yeh, sounds like it will work to me ...

Oddly enough, the evidence for the existence of 'recording' or 'residual' ghosts is very weak, based mainly on doubtful cases. In most well investigated recent hauntings there are very few apparitions reported and those that are rarely repeat anything.

[bobdezon]

Apparently one of the most the important things to remember when investigating ghosts is To Never Inhale.

Seriously. This sort of careless breathing activity could get you well-and-truly haunted- at least according to the Parascience Website (http://www.parascience.org.uk/articles/musings.htm)...




(C)

I dread to think of the consequences of swallowing.....

To be fair though, this is a "musing", and not a scientific paper. Even so it does not appear to be feasible, or even potentially possible as far as I can see. Its an interesting concept, but I think thats all It is, based on what we understand about water memory (or lack thereof).

Very suprised to see it on the parascience site though, perhaps it is a "filler" article? :sad:

[Admin]

according to the Parascience Website (http://www.parascience.org.uk/articles/musings.htm) ...

Surely that's a parody? ???

Well, it's either the funniest or the stupidest thing I've read in a good while.

[Dr B]

To be fair though, this is a "musing", and not a scientific paper.

To be fair - it's nonsense.



Even so it does not appear to be feasible, or even potentially possible as far as I can see.

I agree - though i put it differently above 8)



Its an interesting concept, but I think thats all It is, based on what we understand about water memory (or lack thereof).

Its not interesting (scientifically speaking) if its not factually correct or has the capacity to support sound conclusions.



Very suprised to see it on the parascience site though, perhaps it is a "filler" article? :sad:

I'm not :undecided:

[bobdezon]

To be fair - it's nonsense.

It does appear to have psuedoscientific leanings, I agree.


I agree - though i put it differently above 8)

I just dont know how this could work, I seem to recall that this water memory "phenomena" was tested again using double blind proceedures, by Dr John Maddox, Walter Stewart, James Randi and even Benveniste's own research team. The results for the initial claim could not be replicated.


Its not interesting (scientifically speaking) if its not factually correct or has the capacity to support sound conclusions.

I found the concept interesting (Having being raised on fortean phenomena addiction) but not scientifically.


I'm not :undecided:

Yes, I seem to recall you and Steve were at odds over the infrasound debate. I was kind of hoping that had all blown over by now ;D

[dalriada]

Sadly the late Professor DeSelby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Selby) (extensively cited in O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flann_O%27Brien)) also found that his efforts to dilute water were an equally fruitless endeavour, however just to say that such things have not yet been proved is not to admit that such things may not be proved and indeed someday shall be proved. Indeed quite possibly even by Mr Steve Parsons, perhaps even next Tuesday (weather permitting) [1] The advance of parapsychological research and its long-delayed acceptance into the academic mainstream has long been be-devilled (some would say Be-Dawkinsed) by the persistent claim that ‘extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence’ and so, with reference to the present debate, one is irresistibly reminded of the spirit of de Selby. Even the most casual of observers engaged in an evening’s idle web-mongery (prior to passing out in front of the television in an alcoholic stupor) could only but hope that on this forum a more civilised reception might be given to a new scientific prophet than that which was accorded to both him and Galileo.

It must be openly acknowledged that yes, it is undeniably difficult to get to grips with the complex process of reasoning involved in discussions of these parascientific topics or to refute the curious conclusions arrived at by such convoluted means. Yet it is precisely due to this (quite unnecessary) discombobulation of the mainstream scientist that many of Dr DeSelby's treatises (http://www.hellshaw.com/flann/deselby.html) on topics as diverse as canned darkness, omnium, infra-visual activity and his 4 volume work on the generally insanitary conditions prevailing everywhere after six o'clock' [2] go so unjustly unrecognised.

Dr Ohm Swoonies [3] has extensively argued that the most salient aspect of the matter is the miniscule amount of experimental evidence with which parascience research has sought to support its views in stark contrast to the vast amount of egospace which it occupies in the cognitosphere and points to the potential for irreversible perforation of the logi-zone layer with inevitably disastrous consequences for the fabric of reality[4]. However it is not my intent to dwell on this issue, for longer than it needs to be dwelled upon, not even for five seconds more, or two seconds more or even for one [5]. No. The matter is closed.

The paradigm-shifting conceptualisation of water-based memories’ capacity for air-borne transmission via human inhalation has obvious pertinence to the study of hauntings and is something which deserves serious and considered review. So dear readers let us not turn our attentions from this Theory of Apparitional Aspiration (Parsons, 2008 ) (http://www.parascience.org.uk/articles/musings.htm) rather, let us cherish it in the darkness of our cold black skeptical hearts.

Footnotes

[1] Meteorology aside, Kraus (1981) has also argued for the importance of taking into account The transits of Venus (http://www.parascience.org.uk/other/venus/venus.htm), when calculating the potential dates of scientific discoveries although De Selby himself was rather lax in taking into this into account, preferring instead to rely on idiosyncratic calculations derived from his own sliding scale of temporal anomaly analysis. which most commentators today agree has been entirely superseded by the advent of Peiso magnetic analysis and is thus now of little value.

[2] These conditions are generally worse in the Merseyside area, existing as it does on sandstone bedrock which contains quartz and is thus particularly prone to the production of magnetic fields and the attraction of black airs and darkness, a situation exacerbated by the very powerful electric force given off by Central Station - part of an electrified rail line which loops around the city centre (See Parsons, 2003 ) (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0300whatson/0800events/2003/10/30/let-s-do-time-warp-again-50061-13572570/) . Whether this paraneuropsychopharmalogical pollution is responsible for Liverpool Hope University's current standing in last place (http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_uni=lliverpool+hope&uni=&x=40&y=10)in the Sunday Times University league tables remains a matter for scholastic controversy and possible legal proceedings.

[3] Whereas Dr Swoonies’ academic standing has fallen progressively over the years with increasing revelations as to his private life and the discovery of the network of lime-green painted dungeons which he maintained in the basements of his laboratories, his pre- 2006 work stands unassailable despite this regrettable lapse in taste and morals and one may hope that the Kundalini correspondence course he is currently undertaking during his stay in Broadmoor will once again restore the intellectual brilliance which was once so often a feature of Edinburgh dinner parties and is now sadly missed.

[4]This ego-inflation and resulting sense-pollution has tentatively been proposed as evidence of “The Parsons’ Effect” ( 2008 ) by a shadowy cabal of nay-sayers and meths-drinkers allegedly operating out of a ancient fortress hidden in the depths of the Cumbrian countryside. Nevertheless it must also be noted that despite random sightings and the occasional press-release, there is no reason to suppose that such a group is even in existence and the reader would do well to forget that such a distasteful prospect was even (albeit briefly) introduced to them. I apologise.

[5] This five second count-down was lavishly sponsored by The Braithwaite Watch Making Company (established 1967 B.C).

[Mulder]

Couldn't have put it better myself ....

[Dr B]

I can't see how one can get to sound conclusions from false premises (except by mistake).

A palpably untrue premise (indeed a collection of them) in an account -makes that account unsound, unscientific, and well, nonsense.

I think speculations are fun - but they must remain somewhat close to data and theory (on the whole).

Indeed, even fringe speculations should be based on known facts and plausible (i.e., probable) mechansims. I can't see that here :undecided:

[Dr B]

Sadly the late Professor DeSelby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Selby) (extensively cited in O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flann_O%27Brien)) also found that his efforts to dilute water were an equally fruitless endeavour, however just to say that such things have not yet been proved is not to admit that such things may not be proved and indeed someday shall be proved. Indeed quite possibly even by Mr Steve Parsons, perhaps even next Tuesday (weather permitting) [1] The advance of parapsychological research and its long-delayed acceptance into the academic mainstream has long been be-devilled (some would say Be-Dawkinsed) by the persistent claim that ‘extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence’ and so, with reference to the present debate, one is irresistibly reminded of the spirit of de Selby. Even the most casual of observers engaged in an evening’s idle web-mongery (prior to passing out in front of the television in an alcoholic stupor) could only but hope that on this forum a more civilised reception might be given to the scientific prophet than that which was accorded to both him and Galileo.

It must be openly acknowledged that yes, it is undeniably difficult to get to grips with the complex process of reasoning involved in discussions of these parascientific topics or to refute the curious conclusions arrived at by such convoluted means. Yet it is precisely due to this (quite unnecessary) discombobulation of the mainstream scientist that many of Dr DeSelby's treatises (http://www.hellshaw.com/flann/deselby.html) on topics as diverse as canned darkness, omnium, infra-visual activity and his 4 volume work on the generally insanitary conditions prevailing everywhere after six o'clock' [2] go so unjustly unrecognised.

Dr Ohm Swoonies [3] has extensively argued that the most salient aspect of the matter is the miniscule amount of experimental evidence with which parascience research has sought to support its views in stark contrast to the vast amount of egospace which it occupies in the cognitosphere and points to the potential for irreversible perforation of the logi-zone layer with inevitably disastrous consequences [4]. However it is not my intent to dwell on this issue, for longer than it needs to be dwelled upon, not even for five seconds more, or two seconds more or even for one [5]. No. The matter is closed.

The paradigm-shifting conceptualisation of water-based memories’ capacity for air-borne transmission via human inhalation has obvious pertinence to the study of hauntings and is something which deserves serious and considered review. So dear readers let us not turn our attentions from this theory of Apparitional Aspiration (Parsons, 2008 ) rather, let us cherish it in the darkness of our cold black skeptical hearts.

Footnotes

[1] Kraus (1981) has also argued for the importance of taking into account the transits of Venus, when calculating the dates of potential scientific discoveries although De Selby himself was rather lax in taking into this into account, preferring instead to rely on his own calculations derived from his own sliding scale of temporal anomaly analysis. which most commentators today agree has been entirely superseded by the advent of Peiso magnetic analysis and is thus now of little value.

[2] These conditions are generally worse in the Merseyside area, existing as it does on sandstone bedrock which contains quartz and is thus particularly prone to the production of magnetic fields and the attraction of black airs and darkness, a situation exacerbated by the very powerful electric force given off by Central Station - part of an electrified rail line which loops around the city centre (See Parsons, 2003 ). Whether this paraneuropsychopharmalogical pollution is responsible for Liverpool Hope University's current standing in last place (http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_uni=lliverpool+hope&uni=&x=40&y=10)in the Sunday Times University league tables remains a matter for scholastic controversy and possible legal proceedings.

[3] Whereas Dr Swoonies’ academic standing has fallen progressively over the years with increasing revelations as to his private life and the discovery of the network of lime-green painted dungeons which he maintained in the basements of his laboratories, his pre- 2006 work stands unassailable despite this regrettable lapse in taste and morals and one may hope that the Kundalini correspondence course he is currently undertaking during his stay in Broadmoor will once again restore the intellectual brilliance which was once so often a feature of Edinburgh dinner parties and is now sadly missed.

[4]This ego-inflation and resulting sense-pollution has tentatively been proposed as evidence of “The Parsons’ Effect” ( 2008 ) by a shadowy cabal of nay-sayers and meths-drinkers allegedly operating out of a ancient fortress hidden in the depths of the Cumbrian countryside. Nevertheless it must also be noted that despite random sightings and the occasional press-release, there is no reason to suppose that such a group is even in existence and the reader would do well to forget that such a distasteful prospect was even (albeit briefly) introduced to them. I apologise.

[5] This five second count-down was lavishly sponsored by The Braithwaite Watch Making Company (established 1967 B.C).


Great post.......;D

[ohp]

. And who wants to spend week after week, month after month, visiting "haunted houses" only to find nothing at all.

Nobody wants to spend week after week investigating haunted houses, but what about just investigating old haunted hotels? You'd also have to do it on a long weekend, when ghost activity is at its highest.

To be of best service to the owners, you'd want to eliminate the possibility of ghosts in the most expensive suites.

You could offer to check all the meals for paranormal activity too, and check out the swimming pool for water spirits.

Who would like to join my team? I already have a van... we could stick a bunch of tin foil crap on the side
and wear matching overalls.

[dalriada]

You can say that now OHP, but as the voice of bitter experience let me tell you it's a slippery slope... the odd haunted pub here, a ghost-ridden guesthouse there and oh you may think you can handle it but the next thing you know you know you'll be hanging out with Derek Acorah, and growing a beard, Look at what happened to Robbie Williams! After that it'll be UFOs, a social life comprising entirely of beer-bellied blokes (comparing beards) and women with bad haircuts (standard issue red dye) ... Next thing you know it you'll be having panel discussions about ghosties at Parapsychology conferences and calling it Science.

Stop the rot now, before its too late.. :ghost:

Take up drugs and hookers instead, you know it makes sense.

[Mulder]

Nobody wants to spend week after week investigating haunted houses, but what about just investigating old haunted hotels? You'd also have to do it on a long weekend, when ghost activity is at its highest.

To be of best service to the owners, you'd want to eliminate the possibility of ghosts in the most expensive suites.

You could offer to check all the meals for paranormal activity too, and check out the swimming pool for water spirits.

Who would like to join my team? I already have a van... we could stick a bunch of tin foil crap on the side
and wear matching overalls.

Just adding the smiley you forgot ... :smiley: