Anyone heard of the Egoscue Method...?

[Loomer]

I rejoined the gym the other day. :smiley: I left about 12 months ago after a couple of years keeping fit, because of a reoccuring back problem...:sad:

Anyhow, I fancied getting back in shape and as I signed my life away on membership one of the staff members mentioned that they have someone visit the gym on occasions who practices The Egoscue Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoscue_Method) and this may help with any problems I might be experiencing...

...now this set my mind off straight away into skeptical mode, but as the session was free (perhaps some kind of sales technique????) I have signed up to it.

A few minutes searching information out on the web leads me to the conclusion that it is unscientifically based, posture exercises that probably relieve pain through placebo etc. It was developed by a former marine called Pete Egoscue (http://www.egoscue.com/) who apparently cured his own back problems and then developed his technique... sound's a bit like a Gillian McKeith style guru to me... ::)

However, has anyone any experience of this particular method of apparent woo...?

I am not going to write it off until I have tried it (booked in a week on Wednesday) and I am aware that good posture and core muscle strength/flexibility can help reduce back issues having seen physio's and doctors etc. in the past.

If anyone has any insight please let me know, I will report back after the session to let you know my thoughts...


Rgds


Jon (off to TAM 6 and begining to really look forward to it...!)


Bugger... This should probably have gone in the Alt medicine section...:tongue:

[Allo Allo]

The 'commercialism' aspect would worry me more - sounds like you could be separated from you money pretty speedily if you have to buy 'products'. ???

[Loomer]

I guess not too many people have heard of this particular method...:smiley:

I will enquire into the full costs of the treatment following my free 'consultation'...O0


Rgds

[Loomer]

Well, I went for my consultation at the gym and was met by a nice bloke whom I shall call Steve. Firstly, apologies for the long anecdotal post…::)

…but I found the whole process quite insightful…:smiley: and as I describe the ‘consultation’ below I have pointed out some of the techniques used to convince me that using this method was ‘for me’

...but perhaps you can spot others? :cheesy: (sort of a play along spot and tell…;D)




Introduction

Steve explained his six years experience in ‘Corporate Therapy and Performance’ and started off by asking about me and my particular back symptoms which I duly went through. He then repeated these back with me, but started to discuss the Egoscue Method Therapy (the method) and the fact that he wouldn’t be focusing on my back but on more a holistic approach away from my back area.

The example he gave was of a knee joint being twisted out of shape because or poor feet alignment by placing his knuckles together and simulating the movement of a correctly aligned joint and then one that was moving out of alignment asking for my agreement that “this would be painful, right?”

“Er, yes…”

He then started to discuss the differences between the method and western medicine. Now I cringed (internally) at the use of the phrase ‘western’ medicine, but to be fair, apart from this slip his general patter was relatively woo jargon free.

The method he said would be at the opposite end of a 10 point scale (not sure why the 10 points..?) to western medicine which he equated to operations and surgery on bones where the method focuses on muscle, “because muscle moves bones, right?”

“Er, yes…”

When I discussed the numbing sensation that I sometimes get and the fact that I had been to see a consultant neurologist, he said that “can be a scary experience, right?”

“Er, no, nice Doctor really…”

He then changed tack and discussed Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome#Efficacy) for a little while. He concentrated on how we have no major muscles in our hand and that they are in our arms and shoulders… elluding to the causes being in your shoulder. Now, I happen to know that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is treated through all kinds of different medically proven therapies, but if it does come to it, the surgery success rates are very high, but this wasn’t mentioned…

The Test

We then went into a series of tests involving me standing still and Steve pointing out where me body was out of alignment. Head (slightly forward), Shoulders (not straight) and Hips (quite well aligned… hooray!), feet (one further forward than the other). He emphasized that this wasn’t to be seen as criticism, but something that could be corrected using the method…;)

Then I shut my eyes was asked to describe where my palms were facing (not aligned) and whether my weight felt unevenly distributed between the balls and heals of my feet. (it did, biased to the left heal).

Now by this point he had asked my so many leading questions and made so many misdirecting statements about how out of balance I am, I was getting annoyed as the whole process seemed to me to lead to only one conclusion…:sad: however I kept going as I am reasonably polite and the session was almost over…

The Exercise

We quickly went through one exercise by having me lie on my back with my legs on a chair and to shut my eye and tell him where my body felt heaviest in conection with the floor. As my legs were in the air unsurprisingly it was my hips…. He had my breath deeply (using my diaphragm) and then ask me to stand and asked if my weight distribution had changed on my feet.

Now as I had just got to a standing position from lying with my feet in the air… well I am sure you can guess that my feet did feel different…::)

End of the session and the Pamphlets and the Price...

The session over, we moved to the bar and Steve gave me some details explaining that he felt that I would need 2/3 weekly 60 mins sessions where he would draw up ‘a menu’ of exercises for me to follow and then a follow up session a couple of weeks later to check up on me. He would take pictures so I could see how my posture had improved.

He gave me the pamphlets which contain quotes from Jack Nicklaus, loads of lovely testimonials and nice meaningless words phrases like “Stress is the number one malady of our times” and “ 4th Dimension Egoscue Method Therapy utilizes a Heart Math system called emWave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BDUUwlTlUE) ”...click the link to see a great video…:shocked: :liar: or here (http://www.medgadget.com/archives/2006/06/pseudoscience_fights_back.html#comments) to see a proper review…>:D

and then the price list…:shocked:

1x one hour Egoscue Method Therapy session = £40
2x one hour Egoscue Method Therapy session = £76
3x one hour Egoscue Method Therapy session = £108
8x one hour Egoscue Method Therapy session = £280

My conclusion

There’s no getting away from it, Steve is a nice bloke…:smiley: However, I think his technique was a left a lot to be desired, concentrating on the ususal cunning sales techniques, misdirecting statements, leading questions and physical tests with a follow up exercise designed to get me to ‘feel an effect’…

My symptoms can be annoying and sometimes painful, but using these facts to then link into my buying into the method (over £100quids worth…>:-)) using all of the above techniques (and others that you may have spotted) made me a little annoyed to say the least…

No sale for me, but I was only one of many consultations that day…::)


Rgds

Jon

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Very interesting read. Thanks.

Obviously, you weren't taken in by the patter, but I wonder how many potential customers approach it as coolly as you do.

[Loomer]

Glad you liked it... :smiley:

Not sure I was a cooly able to analyse it all at the induction, but I did manage to pick out the obvious bits whislt I was there...;)

Here is another tactic that may have been used... The Yes Ladder... (http://www.onedegree.ca/2008/03/want-more-sales.html)


Rgds

Jon

[Julia]

I'm surprised and slightly disappointed that a scale with "Love" at one end and "Fear" at the other wasn't involved...

[pamelaann]

However, has anyone any experience of this particular method of apparent woo...?

I am not going to write it off until I have tried it (booked in a week on Wednesday) and I am aware that good posture and core muscle strength/flexibility can help reduce back issues having seen physio's and doctors etc. in the past.

If anyone has any insight please let me know, I will report back after the session to let you know my thoughts...


The Egoscue method changed my life!
along with 'muscle balance function'
It truly is the most amazing self empowering therapy method
You can read my story if you like
I would like to tell the world about this method of healing and maintaing a healthy 'functional' body

Pam
(http://www.bodybalancefunction.co.uk)

[Mulder]

"... Postural Therapy program which involves a series of stretches and gentle exercises ... " (from Wiki)

Sounds like MY kind of therapy. I wonder if you have to up out of a comfy armchair?

[pamelaann]

Sure, we do stuff sitting on a chair too.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Hey Loomer,

I have never heard of this method, but as a Physical Therapist myself, I always recommend Pilates to my clients with back problems. I recommend Pilates to others without back problems too, so they can prevent them occurring. The more Core strength that you develop, the less likely injury will be.

From what you have described, it seems that what he gave you were a lot of Proprioceptive exercises - knowing and feeling where your body is in space. I am not sure that any exercise such as this will actually correct the posture, but it might make you more aware of how it is/you are.

I use some exercises like this with clients following injury - e.g. following an ankle soft tissue injury I might ask my client to practice standing on one foot to help re-gain balance or even balancing on one foot with their eyes closed. This can help re-gain the co-ordination that has been lost from the injury, where especially with ankle injuries, the ligaments have been stretched.

I would say that if some muscles are short and tight, this can be assessed by a Physical Therapist and can be corrected by the work itself. Sports Massage can also achieve this with muscle lengthening techniques and then stretching exercises. A technique called Soft Tissue Release is extremely good for lengthening short muscles. I use it a lot in my practice.

Just my two cents worth, but if I were you I would stick with Pilates or the Core strength exercises that your Physical Therapist will give you. With that and the gym work you should be well on the road to recovery!!

[pamelaann]

The only problemwith Pilates and things like that, is what is the point of strengthening the core of a dysfunctional structure? Very often you can actually strengthen dysfunction, which is renowned in yoga. People feel better initially, and they may feel better for quite a while, but eventually, unless they address the whole body other dysfunctions will creep in.

If you have ankle pain or injury, treat the whole body, and very soon that injury will start to heal. What happens when you injure any part of the body, is that the whole structure goes out of alignment, it has too, because it has to compensate to allow that part to heal.

I tore a lateral ligament in my right foot, in a gardening injury three months ago. It was excruciating, and really quite a trauma the first thing I did was start working the muscles around my pelvis in a functional way, and also the thoracic, at the same time I kept the ankle moving, although it was incredibly swollen and painful to move, whilst I was using a sequence of postural alignment exercises I kept the ankle mobile, I used these exercises about four times a day which took me about 10 minutes each time. The very evening of the trauma I taught a posture class, I could load through that ankle, albeit quite painful, I could stand and walk reasonably normally because I kept all of my gait and posture muscles functional. That injury healed completely within about eight weeks, had I gone down the conventional route of treating the ankle only I'm pretty sure I would still be having symptomatic problems now.

[mahakala]

The only problemwith Pilates and things like that, is what is the point of strengthening the core of a dysfunctional structure? Very often you can actually strengthen dysfunction, which is renowned in yoga. People feel better initially, and they may feel better for quite a while, but eventually, unless they address the whole body other dysfunctions will creep in.

If you have ankle pain or injury, treat the whole body, and very soon that injury will start to heal. What happens when you injure any part of the body, is that the whole structure goes out of alignment, it has too, because it has to compensate to allow that part to heal.

I tore a lateral ligament in my right foot, in a gardening injury three months ago. It was excruciating, and really quite a trauma the first thing I did was start working the muscles around my pelvis in a functional way, and also the thoracic, at the same time I kept the ankle moving, although it was incredibly swollen and painful to move, whilst I was using a sequence of postural alignment exercises I kept the ankle mobile, I used these exercises about four times a day which took me about 10 minutes each time. The very evening of the trauma I taught a posture class, I could load through that ankle, albeit quite painful, I could stand and walk reasonably normally because I kept all of my gait and posture muscles functional. That injury healed completely within about eight weeks, had I gone down the conventional route of treating the ankle only I'm pretty sure I would still be having symptomatic problems now.

Do you have a link or attachment describing the postural alignment exercises you used?

[pamelaann]

I don't have a link or anything I can send you here. Send me an enquiry on my website and I will reply via e-mail.
Do you/have you had similar problems then?

[Admin]

The Egoscue method changed my life!
along with 'muscle balance function'
It truly is the most amazing self empowering therapy method
You can read my story if you like
I would like to tell the world about this method of healing and maintaing a healthy 'functional' body
(http://www.bodybalancefunction.co.uk)


I don't have a link or anything I can send you here. Send me an enquiry on my website and I will reply via e-mail.

Well I removed the original link to the website but it should be quite obvious that Pamelaann is an Egoscue method practitioner and not just someone who's used it.

Talk about this method, which looks like total bullshit to me, by all means but please don't tout for business on here.

[pamelaann]

I am so sory if I have caused offence, it wasn't intended, and I am not posting here just to tout for business

I am a genuine user of Posture Theapy (not 'just a therapist') it truly changed my life and in the spirit of sharing (yoga, or whatever else you want to call it) I came here to post. The enquiry on my website was just that, a way of gving that person answers, I did not try to post all that here.

Posture Therapy, 'Egoscue' or 'Muscle Balance Function' is life changing empowering stuff.........it helps people, it takes people out of pain............and permanently!!!!!!! and its serious stuff, worth sharing with the world.

PamelaAnn

[Admin]

Posture Therapy, 'Egoscue' or 'Muscle Balance Function' is life changing empowering stuff.........it helps people, it takes people out of pain............and permanently!!!!!!! and its serious stuff, worth sharing with the world.

To be honest, when I see people making such evangelical statements about highly implausible and untested therapies, it makes them look less believable.

I also strongly suspect that these treatments 'work' best on psychosomatic illnesses or on conditions that have a large psychosomatic element to them.

I take aspirin when I have a headache and it works; but I don't feel the need to tell the world about it. I take insulin for diabetes and this stuff keeps me alive! But I still don't go on about it. So I do wonder why it is that when people come across these implausible therapies that they are certain cured them (of whatever) they become so engrossed with it that they want to share it with the world and tout it as being virtually a panacea.

It all seems rather too much based on emotion and personal anecdote. To me, that's a telltale sign of a belief system, not a system of medicine.

[bobdezon]

I concur John. :sad:

[neil]

Hello everyone
I was told 4 years ago that i need a hip and knee replacement surgery by a chiropractor who examined my posture)( actually he spent about 30 seconds looking at me

I have tried everthing , orthotics, physio, osteopath,
I have now been working with a postural aligment therapy called 'Muscle Balance and Function Development' for 10 weeks

Well, no longer shall i need the surgery
It is a precise system, scientifically based on physics and Newtonian laws of gravity

You need to get a customn designed program for your posture, and this is given after very careful evaluation
You also need to get updated programs that becone more challenging

By no means is it magic, i need to exercise sfor 1.5- 2hrs per day aside from walking, but I can see that within 6months to 1 year it will get my body back to the state of no pain
The whole idea with this kind of therapy is that you do the fixing with guidance, so what you put in you get out. You certainly will not get results from going for just 1 session then opting out

Everything else has failed, and had i discovered this therapy 6 years ago it would have saved me thousands of pounds
If your in pain out there its an amazing method that works with the right attitude and effort

[neil]

By the way if you have suffered chronic pain for years like i have and you find something that works on a permanent basis then it is no surprise that you feel evangelical about it.

Ther is nothing pyshosomatic about it,
I look different as well as feel different

[Admin]

I was told 4 years ago that i need a hip and knee replacement surgery by a chiropractor

By a chiropractor?

Are you sure it wasn't a subluxation? ;)


I have tried everthing , orthotics, physio, osteopath,
I have now been working with a postural aligment therapy called 'Muscle Balance and Function Development' for 10 weeks

Well, no longer shall i need the surgery

O0 O0 O0

I believe you. :liar:

I tend to find these wonderful cures just a little too good to be true - they have an uncanny resemblance to fairy stories!

Poor patient, nasty condition, no one can do anything, then arrives the knight-in-shining-armour therapist or miracle therapy, problem completely solved, and we all live happily ever after.

Seriously, look on forums where people are recommending these therapies etc. backed up with their anecdotes and you'll see what I mean.

[Pebble]

Well, no longer shall i need the surgery
It is a precise system, scientifically based on physics and Newtonian laws of gravity

You know that once Newton or any other physicist is invoked that were talking mumbo jumbo here. If it really were a simple matter of posture arthritis would have been banished years ago. The science of arthritis is very extensive, and gravity/ wear and tear, is but one element


need to get a customn designed program for your posture, and this is given after very careful evaluation
You also need to get updated programs that becone more challenging

Lets build upon the placebo element. I am concentrating on you, I shall heal you, by convincing you that this program has been tailored just for you, not based on any objective information, but by observation alone!



no means is it magic, i need to exercise sfor 1.5- 2hrs per day aside from walking, but I can see that within 6months to 1 year it will get my body back to the state of no pain

Now lets reinforce the placebo element further, the more work you must put in to guarantee success the better. First it creates a necessity of benefit, to repay all that effort, second it provides the perfect excuse for failure - couldn't keep up the regime!

[neil]

The guy who originally posted on this forum,
If he has been to see doctors and physios then why is his back pain re-occuring? Presumably they of the non-mumbo jumbo knight in shining armour profession would have sorted it?

The system of Postural Alignment is completely logical
Your body has an original blueprint design, (ankles, knees,hips, shoulders in vertical alignment) this has everything to do with gravity and load-bearing.
Habits, lifestlye alters this design and pain is the outcome.
Correct exercise restores the body to its original pain free design.
THe reason why its not so widespread is because very few people take responsibilty for their own heatlh, they would much rather be handed pain-killers than do anything themselves.

The whole idea of placebo in this case is nonsense, it takes hard work and discipline to do the exercises daily and any improvement in posture/pain is deserved.
Pete Egoscue helps ten of thousands of people across the world who are prepared to take responsibilty for their health and put in the necessary time and effort.

G

[Matt]

The guy who originally posted on this forum,
If he has been to see doctors and physios then why is his back pain re-occuring? Presumably they of the non-mumbo jumbo knight in shining armour profession would have sorted it?

The system of Postural Alignment is completely logical
Your body has an original blueprint design, (ankles, knees,hips, shoulders in vertical alignment) this has everything to do with gravity and load-bearing.
Habits, lifestlye alters this design and pain is the outcome.
Correct exercise restores the body to its original pain free design.
THe reason why its not so widespread is because very few people take responsibilty for their own heatlh, they would much rather be handed pain-killers than do anything themselves.

The whole idea of placebo in this case is nonsense, it takes hard work and discipline to do the exercises daily and any improvement in posture/pain is deserved.
Pete Egoscue helps ten of thousands of people across the world who are prepared to take responsibilty for their health and put in the necessary time and effort.

G

It makes sense to me that if your pain is caused by bad posture then fixing your posture would fix your pain.

The bit I have trouble with is the when people start down the path towards claiming that bad posture is responsible for every pain that everybody has ever had.

[Cuddles]

Hello everyone
I was told 4 years ago that i need a hip and knee replacement surgery by a chiropractor who examined my posture)( actually he spent about 30 seconds looking at me

Yeah, chiropractors can be like that. It would probably have helped if you'd gone to see a doctor instead. You know, someone actually qualified to diagnose and treat people.

[neil]

Yeah, chiropractors can be like that. It would probably have helped if you'd gone to see a doctor instead. You know, someone actually qualified to diagnose and treat people.

I did go to see a doctor,
he gave me painkillers, whoppeee

[Matt]

I did go to see a doctor,
he gave me painkillers, whoppeee

And if clinical trials had demonstrated a more effective treatment then that should have been offered.

Since the Egoscue method hasn't demonstrated itself to be clinically effective I can't blame the doctor for being aman of science.

Hey it's great that you got better. I can certainly understand why you think that the posture work you were doing contributed to your recovery. It's certianly plausible that your problems were caused by bad posture. However the only way to know for certain if this treatment has wide ranging applcations or can be targetted towards people who it will actually help is thorugh high quality clinical trials.

C'mon alt medicine is a multi billion dollar industry. You'd think they'd be able to afford to run a few trials.

[Admin]

Pete Egoscue helps ten of thousands of people across the world

Pete himself eh?

The knight in shining armour. The hero of the story. O0


I did go to see a doctor,
he gave me painkillers, whoppeee

Booooo. Nasty doctors. :sad:



I don't know why people like you come onto forums posting your anecdotal (i.e. unsupported by evidence) stories and expect people to take you seriously.

As Matt said, posture therapy of some kind may well help in some way with some conditions but when you're trying to push it as some fabulous panacea that 'changes lives' etc. then your exaggeration gives you away.

[Pebble]

The guy who originally posted on this forum,
If he has been to see doctors and physios then why is his back pain re-occuring? Presumably they of the non-mumbo jumbo knight in shining armour profession would have sorted it?


G


This is precisely the problem. Where medicine is clearly effective: treating heart attacks, treating major trauma, haemorrhagic conditions, severe infections, true malnutrition etc, etc, etc. Charlatans steer clear because their useless methods are easily exposed. Where medicine has yet to develop really effective therapies, every con artist with a little thought and salesmanship knows he/she can make money from gullible sufferers. It takes years to show that the approach is ineffective (and there are always new scams available), and in some cases e.g. homeopathy even this is insufficient to prevent the feeble minded being parted from their money.

[neil]

So people providing posture therapy are con artists and sufferers are gullible? this is certainly what you imply and is highly offensive,


postural aligment therapy has nothing to do with the conditions you list and they are rightly treated through medicine, the 2 things are completely different
This discussion was about postural alignment therapy, which has worked for me when everything else has failed, and this is my personal experience and the experience of thousands of others.
so carry on using sarcasm and insults if it gives you a laugh

O0O0

[Pebble]

postural aligment therapy has nothing to do with the conditions you list and they are rightly treated through medicine, the 2 things are completely different
This discussion was about postural alignment therapy, which has worked for me when everything else has failed, and this is my personal experience and the experience of thousands of others.

O0O0

You did it, you are temporarily at least improved, good for you. This is not evidence. This is an anecdotal association, and you should be ashamed of trying to con others into following your example.

If you believe this works then gather the evidence. What precise conditions benefit, which ones do not, is it better than conventional physiotherapy? Where are the studies published. Without such transparency, then how can I or anyone else differentiate this method from thousands of supposed cures offered over the years, most of which are simply scams?

You say it works because it makes sense - not good enough - anyone can see for themselves that the earth is flat and the sun moves around the earth.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I'm going to stick up for Neil a bit.

Maybe we should be pointing him to more information about how proper testing is done, the issues with confirmation bias, the impact of placebo, how a treatment becomes conventionally accepted etc.

Without any evidence that he is directly promoting this method as opposed to being someone who has benefited, then maybe we are being too hard on him.

However if he is here, just to try to spam some good news about this treatment, then he is no better than the MLM merchants we have had in the past. At least he isn't a spambot :tongue:

[Pebble]

I'm going to stick up for Neil a bit.

Maybe we should be pointing him to more information about how proper testing is done, the issues with confirmation bias, the impact of placebo, how a treatment becomes conventionally accepted etc.


OK fair point, I have made the assumption that having read the earlier part of the thread, the only reason for coming through again with another miracle story was to advertise. As you say this may not be the case, so here is the required link:

http://ukskeptics.com/skepticism.php

[Dan Monahan]

Hi Everyone

I discovered this discussion/Thread/argument whatever you want to call it, while doing a google search to see if there are any "Egoscue Forums" on the internet, so I signed up because I needed to get involved.

I am amazed at how negative some people can be, and slating poor old Neil, he seems to me just a regular guy who was able to get on the road to recovery by using Egoscue or some sort of posture therapy, and he thought he would spread the word and help some people, even if it is just one person and he seems to be getting an ear bashin, and people being sarcastic, seems very immature!

I have a bulging disc in my L4-L5 region, won't bore you with details but basically have tried everything, and no luck at all, I am ready and booked in for surgery in December this year (NHS UK...grrrrrrr) but I have read Pete Egoscue's books and they are fantastic books, and you simply cannot argue with his points, if anyone here knows anything about the human body that is, if you don't then don't try and argue against his claims, because you need a very good understanding of the human body otherwise.

I am booked in this Monday to visit an Egoscue Practioner this Monday 4th August, do I know if it is going to work?? Who knows, but what I do know is how can you call Egoscue a miracel cure, or some mumbo jumbo, Placebo effect, if the Individual needs to perform 1hr of exercises per day, sometimes multiple times per day, this does not seem something skeptical to me, it seems like sheer hard work.

Fair enough you can search the net for back pain and sciatica cures, and you get people trying to sell you magical formulas that means all you have to do is pop some natural herbs and somehow all will be fine, don't worry about your twisted pelvis, or that your knee is twisted or your foot is inverted, take this pills and you'll be fine!!

If Egoscue was like this then fair enough, slam it, I would as well in fact I do slam things like that, the magical pills or the back braces, because it requires no hard work on the individuals side, it's lazy, people want a simple way out of things, and the reason why Egoscue may not work for some, is because they are lazy, it's too much hard work, there favourite program is on the T.V, they couldn't ever miss their favourite program! It's pathetic!

I look at it like this, if you had someone who had back problems, sciatica, and you took them to an Egoscue Therapist, CHEK Therapist, Osteopath, Physio whatever you name it, and they say they cannot find a single fault with any of their joints, pelvis is neutral kness are aligned properly feet point straight ahead, everything is in the correct position then they may well be fact that Egoscue is a load of B#ll#cks!! But I guarantee you there is no one with back pain or sciatica that does not have some sort of postural dysfunctions!!!

So stop being negative guys, you got people on here that have posted thousands of posts, just goes to prove they are synical and neagtive people in general, must be tough living a life so bitter and twisted, someone along the way has obviously p#ssed you guys off, and you feel the need to rain on people's parades!!

Give people a break, If it works it works, end off, let people find out for themselves, life is a learning curve and we only learn thorugh our own mistakes!!

[Admin]

I am amazed at how negative some people can be, and slating poor old Neil, he seems to me just a regular guy who was able to get on the road to recovery by using Egoscue or some sort of posture therapy, and he thought he would spread the word and help some people, even if it is just one person and he seems to be getting an ear bashin, and people being sarcastic, seems very immature!

Some of us have been around a while and we can spot SPAM when we see it. ;)

If anyone genuinely wanted to talk about the methods of Egoscue Therapy (and we do have some medics on here) then they will be welcomed.

I'm afraid all we've had so far is the typical propaganda type postings (and I include yours in that category) that people involved in belief systems love to post on forums hoping that people will believe their exaggerated claims.


I have a bulging disc in my L4-L5 region, won't bore you with details but basically have tried everything, and no luck at all

The damsel in distress scenario!

Surely, someone can help. Is there a knight in shining armour?


I have read Pete Egoscue's books and they are fantastic books, and you simply cannot argue with his points

Why of course there is!!!! ;D

I bet his points could be argued with but, of course, I doubt we'll be seeing them will we?


I am booked in this Monday to visit an Egoscue Practioner this Monday 4th August, do I know if it is going to work?? Who knows

I would bet that you'll be back telling us it's worked. Without any evidence, naturally.


the reason why Egoscue may not work for some, is because they are lazy

Another tell-tale sign of a quack belief system. If it doesn't work, blame the patient.

Skeptics are very familiar with this tactic.


But I guarantee you there is no one with back pain or sciatica that does not have some sort of postural dysfunctions!!!

How can you guarantee that?

You seem to be a little more cock sure of yourself than an inquiring patient. ;)


So stop being negative guys, you got people on here that have posted thousands of posts, just goes to prove they are synical and neagtive people in general, must be tough living a life so bitter and twisted, someone along the way has obviously p#ssed you guys off, and you feel the need to rain on people's parades!!

Give people a break, If it works it works, end off, let people find out for themselves, life is a learning curve and we only learn thorugh our own mistakes!!

Ah! The old 'nasty skeptic' ad Hominem argument. ::)

Spotting quackery and the propagandists who try to promote their own line of medical quackery is positive - not negative. O0

OK, it may look like we're taking the piss somewhat, but no one should be under any illusions that these people are genuine patients - they're practitioners trying to promote their own businesses or suckers doing it for them.

[Mongrel]

But I guarantee you there is no one with back pain or sciatica that does not have some sort of postural dysfunctions!!!
How can you guarantee that?

Well to be fair they probably have postural problems because of the pain, not pain caused by bad posture.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I take back wot I said :-[

[Dan Monahan]

WOW......I've said my piece that's all I wish to say, I don't wish to banter back and fourth with anyone, We all have our opinions and views, and by all means, be skeptical that is what the site is for I guess...lol....I've just posted mine for what I believe to be true, MY OPINION!!! If you wish to mock my views and break down every sentence I wrote and be cocky and sarcastic then please by all means go ahead if you have that much time to spare...

I'll quickly check back tomorrow for your sarky remarks, can't wait I do love a bit of sarcasm O0

[Admin]

Thanks for the input Dan. O0

[Dan Monahan]

Love it O0

[filippo lippi]

Hey, lookee here, Dan and Neil playing prop and cop on another forum.

http://www.solution4pain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=645

[filippo lippi]

And as Dan says at "Lose the back pain" forums


Everyone should read "The Egoscue Method of Health Through Motion: Revolutionary Program That Lets You Rediscover the Body's Power to Rejuvenate It by Pete Egoscue" it's only £6.57 or $10 on Amazon, very cheap, but so informative, and makes so much sense, it's worth every penny, and very enlightening!

http://pub47.bravenet.com/forum/4006344056/show/788426

[Admin]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Well found. O0

I must admit, I didn't even do a search as their spiel was so obviously false.

[SimonC]

Oh, Filippo, you nasty, nasty skeptic. Clearly that must be a different Dan Monahan.

And a different Neil. Who just happen to have the same back problems as Dan and Neil here. Must be, because Dan told us that he only found this forum, and Neil, via a google search. :-X

Sorry, is my sarcasm showing?

( I googled too, and spotted those links, earlier this evening. Just wanted to leave it a while and see if they'd dig themselves in any deeper >:D ).

[Dan Monahan]

Okay now if people take the chance to read the forum that you have googled solution for pain, shows very well that I have nothing to do with Egoscue or MBF, I was merely enquiring, I am a genuine patient/injured person, not a practioner of any kind, like I was wrongly accused of earlier. This guy neil replied back to my thread that I posted on there, because I was enquiring about MBF, and the forum guy asked neil to post about his experiences so I could get an idea and here from someone that has used it.....What is wrong with that???

As for the LTBP forum, I have been on their for ages, and guess why?? IN search of back pain and sciatic pain relief.....the LTBP forum is a community to help others who are in chronic pain like myself, if you took the time to read other posts on there, instead of jumping to conclusions, I help others from telling people what has helped me, I do not get asked by anyone to post anywhere.

You guys need to take the time to read posts, before jumping to conclusions, I try and help people find relief, because people have helped me, I feel it is only right that I do that, I've suggested to people to try and buy new mattresses because this has helped me, so I guess I work for a giant Mattress company now?? I've also mentioned other massage products to people to try out, or anything else I have tried or any other books I have read that have had an impact on me, or have helped me to understand my body better this has helped me, all I am simply doing is simply voicing my opinion in the hope it may help others...

Have any of you guys ever been in pain?? You will try anything to get relief, and if you find a few things that even give you a little bit of time pain free it makes you want to share it with others, I have suggested people by Pete Egoscue's book because it makes sense to me, it truly does, It helped me understand more stuff about the human body, and I believe it will provide me relief, I won't know until I try it, but I'm willing to try it, call me a sales person if you wish, or a fraud or whatever you guys want to call me, all I know is that I am a genuine person who is on the internet alot researching about back pain, educating myself as much as I can about back pain and different treatments in search of relief, and when I stumble across a few things I find really helpful then, I wish to share it with others, in the hope that it will help others, and stop them from spending loads of money like I have on useless equipment or on physios, and chiros, which have not worked for me. If I wanted to remain annonymous all the time, then I would change my username and not use my real name.....Think about that one?!!

I am simply doing what you guys are doing, if I find something useless or a rip off I will post it on the LTBP forum, to stop others from falling for the same thing, not because I am being paid or asked to by someone, but because I want to help people, because as I said before I have had people help me.

I tried to come on here, and back up something I think is a good product, and why I have posted about it on the LTBP forum because i think it could genuinely help others, and I have got slated by you guys, and mocked at, but all I am doing is voicing my opinion like you guys and trying to get rid of the bad guys....

God bless...

[SimonC]

Okay, in a spirit of fairness, I'll say that googling 'egoscue forums' does currently bring up UKS, high on the list.

We'll see...

If you'd read this forum though, Dan, you'd know better than to offer "God bless". We're pretty much of an atheistic/agnostic dispositon around here!;)

You'd also know that 'personal recommendations' don't hold too much water here, any more than someone 'sharing their experience of spirit', or telling us about 'someone who used homeopathy and got better'. Empirical evidence would be the way forward. If you have that to validate 'something you think is a good product' then feel free to bring it. O0

[Dan Monahan]

WOW we agree on something....lol

I don't even know why I wrote that I'm not in the slighest bit religious, just trying to be nice....lol....

I wasn't going to read through the forum, as I said I googled found it and just felt I needed to reply...But note taken for future reference for this forum or others....O0

[Admin]

Dan.

So you're promoting a treatment to 'help' people and you haven't even tried it yet? ::)

Yes people with chronic pain will try all sorts - this is a damn good reason for skepticism though. Such people are wide open to being ripped off financially and constantly being offered false hope from the seemingly endless number of quack treatments out there.

Skeptics are not overly impressed by 'opinion' either - we prefer facts and evidence.

Does it not cross your mind that by promoting what is highly likely to be just another form of quackery (and remember, Egoscue has never been validated) based upon your 'opinion' (as you haven't even tried it yet) that you could actually be encouraging other people in a similar position to yours into a useless dead end of expense and false hope?

You are not medically qualified, you have no credentials to evaluate medical interventions, you have no right to give medical advice or encourage others to try unproven treatments and your 'opinion' counts for nothing. Leave the medical advice to the experts, eh?

In fact, if you want to gain anything from being here, perhaps you could look at your own situation with a touch of skepticism. You say that you've already tried several forms of quackery (Chiropractic etc.) and haven't improved one iota; yet you're ready to dive head first into another form of quackery!

Perhaps you ought to think about learning from your mistakes?

[SimonC]

I'm not in the slighest bit religious...

You're one of us! Welcome to UKS. Lol! ;D;D

I just wanted to add a few comments, following from John's post above. Imagine, Dan, that somebody else with a health issue comes here, or is looking around the net. On this very forum you'll find people that have promoted/defended all kinds of claims about 'miracle cures'. Should the hypothetical person looking for help go for homeopathy? Perhaps colloidal silver, which has been touted as a cure-all? Chiropractic? Perhaps they should take a more 'spiritual' approach and chat to Gary Mannion, the faith healer? Pretty much a minefield, isn't it?

Thing is, all of these proposals have been defended in the same way that you are talking about the cure that you have pinned your hopes upon - they believe in it, they've heard that it works, read testimonials and so on. It makes sense to them. If you look at it objectively, I think you'll agree that there is nothing to distinguish your claim from any of the others, however ridiculous they might appear ( faith healing??? Yeah, whatever...).

That's essentially what skepticism is about, Dan. It's an approach to evaluating claims, particularly extraordinary claims. We try to apply the same principals to health claims as to paranormal ones, to scams, hoaxes and the rest of it. What we try do do is use critical thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking) to check out the validity of these things, as far as possible. Personal recommendation and anecdotes just don't hold water with us because, to be frank, what's to objectively distinguish between your recommendation and that of someone who reckons that sticking a lit ( Hopi ) candle in your lughole will sort out your ills?

No. Really... :cheesy:

And, yes, this does make us appear somewhat brash and dismissive. We get accused of negativity and sarcasm quite often. It makes us chuckle. ;) Seriously though, if you think about it, dismissing the nonsense is quite a positive thing to do - it's just separating the wheat from the chaff. It's a great skill to have, and it's damn useful.

If you have some time available, I'd recommend that you read through some of the articles on the homepage (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/index.php). This (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/health.php) and this (http://www.ukskeptics.com/what_is_skepticism.php), in particular might interest you. Hopefully these will give you more of an insight into how skeptics approach these kinds of issues. While looking for something to alleviate your health issues I hope that these articles might prove helpful in giving you a different, perhaps broader, persective on how to evalute the many and varied 'cures' on offer.

I hope that this proves useful to you! O0

[Dan Monahan]

Ok firstly read the book first John Jackson!!! And if you have any knowledge of the human body then it will make sense to you, it's basic bio-mechanics, do you know what that is??!!! I have spoke to many people who it has worked for, and I don't give a fcuk if it doesn't have scientific evidence, I have met people who have had Microdisecetomy's who doctor's say it will work, supposedly scientific studies, but yet these have not got rid of their pain!!!

Yeah a dead end expense of £7.25 on Amazon.....Call the bank I need a loan!!!

I do have the right to suggest people try something, it is my right, I do what I want, if I feel it will help people than I will do it, don't tell me what to do....Back Pain has been left to the experts for years, these so called experts have not helped me one bit, and now looking at practices like Chiro they do not make sense, why keep going back to get adjusted when your muscles are the ones causing you to go out of alignment! If you know anythign about the human body then you will know I am right, And what do they say "Learn to deal with the pain" Boll#x!!

I'm not diving head first into Egoscue, I've read the books, I've read countless books, and researched the net, regarding the effects of muscles on back pain, and muscular imbalances, I've spoke to people who have used the book, heard from them first hand, which I have never done before, I have jumped into Osteopathic medicine before without researching it, so I have learned from my mistakes.

You guys are hilarious in the fact, that orginally you had a go at me, believing I was trying to sell something for my benefit, or was a practioner, now you have been proved to be wrong, you are trying to have a go at me for having an opinion?! Are you serious???

My opinion is mine, and nothing you can say will change that, I know a hell of alot more than you guys about back pain and sciatica, and I will continue to suggest things to others, I will help others, and others will help me, it's called being human!!!

Try it sometime....

[Cuddles]

My opinion is mine, and nothing you can say will change that

How sad. And to think believers whine about sketpics having closed minds.


I know a hell of alot more than you guys about back pain and sciatica,

Really? You sure of that? Considering that there are actual doctors on this forum and your knowledge appears to consist soley of having read a few books about quackery? Of course, earlier you were absolutely sure that:

But I guarantee you there is no one with back pain or sciatica that does not have some sort of postural dysfunctions!!!
Which suggests that you really don't know much about back pain at all, considering that a really good way of casuing back pain is simlpy falling over, with posture not having even vague relevance.


and I will continue to suggest things to others, I will help others, and others will help me, it's called being human!!!

Try it sometime....

So you think encourage people in pain to give their money to con artists in return for some quackery that, at best, is an unproven, unregulated, potentially viable therapy in some cases, but more often is completely useless or even dangerous in itself? And you consider that helping? You know what else is called being human? Preying on the weak and vulnerable in order to get yourself any advantage you can. I sincerely hope you get exactly the same kind of help you give to others.

[Dan Monahan]

Okay were talking about Back Pain that has come without an accident or trauma?! Majority of back pain people do not know how they come to have it, just suddently happened (or thats what they think!) without a car accident or as you say falling over....;D And don't say you can get a bulging disc by sneezing....LOL....The Human body ain't that weak, unless there is postural weaknesses there in the first place... O0

And when I was saying I know more about back pain and sciatica than "You guys" I was referring to those in the thread!!!!! And if these are general practioners you are referring to on this board, are these the ones who are now run by pharmaceutical companies these days, take this drug for this, take this for this side effect, then this because of this side affect of this drug, and so on, in the end it becomes a domino effect of drugs!!

Why are you calling Egoscue con artists?? or quakery?? As I keep saying it requires hard work, if it was about reading the book, and you will be healed fair enough!!

Have you heard from anyone saying they were conned by them at all??? I'm sure loads of people could start calling Chiro's and Physio's con artists, because there are many people who use them and don't get any relief, me included!!

What advantage do you think I am getting?????? ???

"I sincerely hope you get exactly the same kind of help you give to others."

Is this you being nasty or are you hoping I get a nice genuine person suggesting a few things to try??? If your in fact being nasty, that is uncalled for!!!!! :sad:

[Matt]

OK we have two people doing some act that they've been through before on another forum. Apparently they've proven that they're merely enthusiastic evangelists for a technique with which they have only limited personal experience, rather than paid-up astro turfers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) I must have missed the it where they were in any way convincing about this but hey lets give them the benfit of the doubt. What are we skeptics or something?

Instead I have a question. A few years ago we were all deluged with adverts proclaiming the Alexander technique as the best thing since sliced bread for dealing with a whoe range of conditions like back pain through posture and alignment.

So I wish to ask the delegation of absolutely genuine grass roots support we've somehow acquired why they chose the Egoscue Method over the Alexander Technique? Was it that the theories sounded more plausible. Was it that your GP recomended it? Was it that you've studied the clinical evidence? What is it about your condition which make the Egoscue Method a suitable treatment. Which conditions do you think the Egoscue method works is most effective at treating.

[Admin]

Ok firstly read the book first John Jackson!!! And if you have any knowledge of the human body then it will make sense to you, it's basic bio-mechanics, do you know what that is??!!! I have spoke to many people who it has worked for, and I don't give a fcuk if it doesn't have scientific evidence, I have met people who have had Microdisecetomy's who doctor's say it will work, supposedly scientific studies, but yet these have not got rid of their pain!!!

Yeah a dead end expense of £7.25 on Amazon.....Call the bank I need a loan!!!

I do have the right to suggest people try something, it is my right, I do what I want, if I feel it will help people than I will do it, don't tell me what to do....Back Pain has been left to the experts for years, these so called experts have not helped me one bit, and now looking at practices like Chiro they do not make sense, why keep going back to get adjusted when your muscles are the ones causing you to go out of alignment! If you know anythign about the human body then you will know I am right, And what do they say "Learn to deal with the pain" Boll#x!!

I'm not diving head first into Egoscue, I've read the books, I've read countless books, and researched the net, regarding the effects of muscles on back pain, and muscular imbalances, I've spoke to people who have used the book, heard from them first hand, which I have never done before, I have jumped into Osteopathic medicine before without researching it, so I have learned from my mistakes.

You guys are hilarious in the fact, that orginally you had a go at me, believing I was trying to sell something for my benefit, or was a practioner, now you have been proved to be wrong, you are trying to have a go at me for having an opinion?! Are you serious???

My opinion is mine, and nothing you can say will change that, I know a hell of alot more than you guys about back pain and sciatica, and I will continue to suggest things to others, I will help others, and others will help me, it's called being human!!!

Try it sometime....

What an excellent post Dan. O0

It displays the sheer naivety and gullibility required of someone to be suckered in by quackery and the brash pig-headedness of someone who knows he's right. The perfect mindset of a willing victim!

Why do people get harmed (financially or even physically) by bogus treatments? Well there's the answer.

[Dan Monahan]

Thanks John glad you liked it mate O0

I have read a bit on the Alexander Technique and from what I have learned is it requires you to think about your posture consiously, you have to think about your movements, when your sitting you must remember to pull your shoulders back and to find the positions that cause less tension. As I said I haven't researched it much, but this is my understanding, it requires a consious effort to maintain correct posture, and this simply will not work, muscle tension is subconscious. We don't have to tell our legs consciously to move us do we??

It is extremely difficult to train your muscles consiouscly like that, you need to remind the muscles of their correct length, weather that is through CHEK, Egoscue, or any other Muscle Balancing programs, through stretching and strengthening exercises, Egoscue is nothing new, it is just another way at performing Muscular Balanced training.

Has anyone here actually even read either of Egoscue's books??

[Admin]

Has anyone here actually even read either of Egoscue's books??

Do you seriously think that reading Egoscue's books on his methods of treatment is the best way to find out if it works or not? ;D

What about Carol Vorderman's 'detox plan' - would reading the book convince you that it's all for real?

Actually, you probably would. :undecided:

[Dan Monahan]

Actually I'm on my 10th day of her plan and its working wonders for me.....;D

Well it would help if your going to dismiss it wouldn't it???

If anyone else would like to answer if they have read any of the books that would be great, preferably someone with a bit of maturity O0

[Admin]

Dan, you're becoming tedious.

If you have a reasoned argument to put forward then do so. If you're intent on reducing this already extremely poor debate into a childish spat then I'll ban you. Clear?

[filippo lippi]

"Just buy the book, read it and then tell me it doesn't make sense."

Sounds like the Jref's semi-resident $cientologist, fredcarr



If anyone else would like to answer if they have read any of the books that would be great, preferably someone with a bit of maturity O0

Tu quoque

[Dan Monahan]

I'm sorry but you guys started it didn't you with the sarcasm, and cockiness, I had no intent in starting anything, just giving my point of view, but all that has happened is people slating me, I am just defending my corner, and now someone is coming back at you with the same as what you give to others, you can't take it, doesn't feel nice to be on the otherside of it does it??

Shouldn't give it if you can't take it O0

[Admin]

OK. Dan has been banned.

As stated we're always prepared to discuss issues on here regarding claims and evidence - even when those claims are unlikely to be true.

However, there's a saying "never argue with a fool as those watching can't tell the difference" and I think we're in danger of that here.

People should always be cautious about accepting anecdotes as evidence (even though they can be convincing) and Dan is a perfect example of why that is.

[SimonC]

You're one of us! Welcome to UKS. Lol!

Good to know that my precognitive abilities are operating at full power. :-[ ;D

[neil]

Guys,

was this originally a post about 'anyone heard of the egoscue method'

I have and i have used it to my benefit. thats why i replied, and i would recommend it to other people out there in pain, nuff said

seeing how worked up you guys get over nothing you may want to try an indian head massage,,its great :cheesy::cheesy:

[Pebble]

Guys,

was this originally a post about 'anyone heard of the egoscue method'

I have and i have used it to my benefit. thats why i replied, and i would recommend it to other people out there in pain, nuff said

seeing how worked up you guys get over nothing you may want to try an indian head massage,,its great :cheesy::cheesy:

Nothing to get worked up about, if you want to believe in magic, fine. This is not a site for testimonials, try day time TV.

[neil]

Yeah I think we all know what this site is about,


slag people off that have experience about a question that was posted,
ban people who eventually use sarcasm because there is no other way to communicate with them as they dont understand mature conversation,

if this is not a site for testimonials, then maybe ban people from asking questions about specific methods, because thats what you are going to get!

What did you expect when somebody opened a thread saying 'anyone heard of the egoscue method?'

[MischiefMonkey]

Yeah I think we all know what this site is about,


slag people off that have experience about a question that was posted,
ban people who eventually use sarcasm because there is no other way to communicate with them as they dont understand mature conversation,

if this is not a site for testimonials, then maybe ban people from asking questions about specific methods, because thats what you are going to get!

What did you expect when somebody opened a thread saying 'anyone heard of the egoscue method?'

Somebody asks about any treatment - what is expected? From this site, a fully rational examination of the available data and evaluation of the science behind the treatment.

For Egoscue that didn't work out so well.

I would wonder why....but that might be interpreted as sarcasm.

This coming from a beneficiary of Physiotherapy and Yoga!!

[Tim the Mage]

"We then went into a series of tests involving me standing still and Steve pointing out where me body was out of alignment. Head (slightly forward), Shoulders (not straight) and Hips (quite well aligned… hooray!), feet (one further forward than the other). He emphasized that this wasn’t to be seen as criticism, but something that could be corrected using the method…"

This does seem a little like a tailor's patter (we're all out of alignment and there ain't nothing we can do about it).

Like many things the good stuff gets lost in the guff - eat a balanced diet, stretch, exercise, drink red wine...(I'm getting carried away here)...drink more red wine. Life's good (except for the headaches!)

Like many of these things, this strikes me as a means of removing notes from wallets rather than a way to change one's shape.

[neil]

erm,

its musucular physical therapy, muscles changed the shape of your body, so muscles can get it back that way if given the correct stimulus,

if you need a scientific explanation of using alignment as a template for the body well then its called evolution, you know, how we got from crawling to standing up straight on 2 legs?
we are talking about Postural alignment therapy, re-aligning the body, but you want to make it complicated by wanting scientific explanations?

its simple and its based on common sense.

by the way if you want a deatiled study of the impact of pat (in this case
Muscle Balance Function)then here is a link
http://www.musclebalancefunction.com/TowardsBetterHealth.pdf


"The MBF® education system is of great value in that it has enabled my staff and me to enhance
our efforts in achieving permanent results for our patients and in helping them become more self-responsible"
Dr. Robert J. Goodman, The Nevada Spine Center, Boulder City, NV


oh and looky here, a positive response from one of those scientifical doctor type people, surely not?

by the way before you start accusing me of advertising or anything else i stand absolutely nothing to gain by suggesting this method to anyone else, only they do, i am just someone who has benefited from it.

the only evidence you seem to have that it DOES NOT work is the guy who originally posted on here, (strangely now absent from this discussion)
who only went along for one session then decided it was not for him, well you simply cant judge something on that.

the people who have presented positive comment about P.A.T have either been bullied off the site through personal insults or been banned,
because thats your idea of a forum, only open to people who share the same point of view as you,

this will be my last post, say what you want, and because its probably a bit of a tedious discussion now i will probably be banned, hey might as well be consistent eh?

all the best :-*:-*

[Mongrel]

e
we are talking about Postural alignment therapy, re-aligning the body, but you want to make it complicated by wanting scientific explanations?

Call it engineering then ;)



by the way if you want a deatiled study of the impact of pat (in this case
Muscle Balance Function)then here is a link
http://www.musclebalancefunction.com/TowardsBetterHealth.pdf


"The MBF® education system is of great value in that it has enabled my staff and me to enhance
our efforts in achieving permanent results for our patients and in helping them become more self-responsible"
Dr. Robert J. Goodman, The Nevada Spine Center, Boulder City, NV


oh and looky here, a positive response from one of those scientifical doctor type people, surely not?

A positive response from one of the guys who's selling the product, no actual studies just testimonials and the fact that 'Dr' Goodman is a Chiropracter (http://www.nvspine.com/). Well that puts any credibility he may have had down the toilet.

the people who have presented positive comment about P.A.T have either been bullied off the site through personal insults or been banned,
because thats your idea of a forum, only open to people who share the same point of view as you,

So "Where's the evidence?" is a synonym for bullying, must remember that in the future


this will be my last post, say what you want, and because its probably a bit of a tedious discussion now i will probably be banned,
As long as you haven't broken site rules you'll be fine, of course if you wish to skulk away thinking you're glorious testimonials beat evidence any day then, please, sod off :smiley:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

So any similarities between Egoscue method and the Alexander technique?




Long-term back pain can be relieved through encouraging sufferers to adopt good posture through the Alexander technique, say UK researchers.
The technique teaches patients how to sit, stand and walk in a way that relieves pain by focusing on their coordination and posture.
Until now there had been little evidence of the therapy's long term effectiveness. The latest work is published in the British Medical Journal.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7568948.stm

[Pebble]

So any similarities between Egoscue method and the Alexander technique?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7568948.stm


Thanks for that:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/337/aug19_2/a884

A very well conducted trial; comparing massage; exercise program and 6 or 24 Alexander technique sessions, comparing outcome using validated scores at 1 year.

Only problems:
1. Unblinded - but significant efforts made to ensure that each technique was portrayed as equally likely to be effective.

2. Significant potential for placebo effect. Alexander technique 1:1 sessions (>90% adeherence); while exercise one visit to GP and one to nurse (72% adherence).

3. Single trial; no previous well conducted trials suggesting that this is the likely magnitude of benefit from this intervention.

However, clearly shows that Alexander technique is more effective than massage, and acheives a meaningful outcome at 1 year (beyond when one would generally expect a placebo effect to be still operative).

This would certianly be enough for NICE to consider recommending Alexander technique, if shown to be cost-effective.

[Admin]

So any similarities between Egoscue method and the Alexander technique?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7568948.stm

Quite possibly.

I don't think anyone on here (although I haven't read back) is denying that posture-based therapies can be useful for posture-based problems.

It's when these simple and limited therapies are overextended and proposed as virtually 'life changing' panaceas that it gets really silly.

Egoscue might well prove to be beneficial for some posture-based problems ('might' being the operative word as it's never been formally validated) but it certainly isn't a cure for anything else.

This is why I'm always dubious of these wondrous stories of life-changing cures etc. If someone claimed that they had joint pain or similar and they'd used posture therapy and now they feel a bit better then even anecdotal evidence like that wouldn't need to be doubted too much. But the bullshit some of the proponents have come out with in this thread is just way OTT.