UK Land Banking.

[Freddie]

In Asia many UK land banking companies seem to be operating. Its rife at
the moment.

It would be nice if the UK FSA and Consumer orgs would link up with their partners in Asian countries. If nothing else the English are becoming the equivalent in South Asia of the Nigerian scammers we English all complain about.

The strategy
Buy cheap land with no chance of planning permission close to a big UK city. Divide it up into tiny plots. Give it a cute yet expensive name. Mark up the price by 1600% to 3000% depending on how ambitious you are. Sell it on a commission only basis in Asia and Canada where apparently unless you can prove categorically that something does not work you can sell it without criticism of any kind.

Always infer in everything you do (much like religion or any other scam) - "we have access to a secret only the rich and successful and confident have. You can have the secret and more secrets as well for less than 10 grand but you have to act quickly and dont ask anyone else, except tell your friends with money".

Control the flow of information so everything appears to be supportive. Once the investor has bought the concept be their friend while you all wait for planning permission that while certainly coming has unfortunately been delayed just a little. Dont just sell them one thing. They all know about financial diversification. Allow them to diversify their wealth into your other investment scams.

Then blame the economy, mysterious bad forces at [link removed], or [link removed], or move or start again with a new name. Or just run away and retire.

The pitch:-
The London Olympics is coming - look at what happened in Beijing.

Land prices have only dropped once in 700 years in the UK – you cant lose. (Just plain not true BTW).

In the faint chance we don’t get planning permission you still own the land (financially this is like paying for a new car to be delivered in two years and finding later you own 10 square meters of rusty steel in the middle of 10,000 square metres of steel you cant use in a foreign country).

This land is very close to something you've heard of so it must be valuable (Heathrow, London, Colchester, A London Bus, Tony Blair, Concorde etc).

We must be reputable - here is a picture of a London bus, the houses of parliament or Buckingham palace.

Its Strategic Pre-developed land (much like me being a strategic pre-handsome billionaire or pre-immortal)

Backed by (= we have an ATM card with) HSBC or Barclays or Midlands or Natwest bank or Standard Chartered.

Look at all these government reports saying about the shortage of housing. Look at all these local council reports about the shortage of housing

Look a graph with money on it. Its going up.
Look another graph going up.
We have some English football players saying how good it is. You can meet them if you invest with us.

Here is picture of a rich person (often George Soros or Richard Branson but any rich person who apparently has "the secret" will do)

We advertise on the TV and we mention that a lot.
Our independent consultant once did some work for someone important and reputable in England
Our independent consultants have prepared a plan which shows lots of houses on this site.
Our independent consultants have approved the planning proposal for this site so we have full pre-approval. (See pre-developed)
We’ve sent all our independent consultant reports to the local council so we are well connected. (they didn’t read them but who cares)

Look a London Bus with another graph going up.
Look a chirpy trustworthy cockney.
Look the Houses of Parliament again.
Look a huge number with a percentage sign after it.

The web.
If you look at many of these sites from the UK you cant see anything. (You can with Google cache sometimes). From Asia its covered with the kind of stuff that surely couldn’t be published if it wasn’t true in the UK? So the impression in Asia is of passive support from UK organisations who don’t even know they are on the website.

“stuffed” multiple web sites. When you search for the company the first page in Google shows many complimentary sites with "independent" positive comments.

For a few hundred bucks get a lawyer to issue letters of defamation cease and desist against anyone who says anything negative that appears on Google page one (yep – at least 3 of us got one - but i had already left Asia).

[Legaleagle]

This scam has been sold to individuals in the UK as I pointed out on this forum last year (sorry, I am not very good with links and things).

[bindeweede]

This scam has been sold to individuals in the UK as I pointed out on this forum last year (sorry, I am not very good with links and things).

Legaleagle,

Last June you posted this.
This is a type of scam I have come across through clients of mine who have bought land plots which are essentially worthless.

Basically the scammers buy a field in a designated Green Belt area and then have a plan drawn up dividing the field into building plots. They then sell each of these plots to an individual for (usually) between £10,000 and £25,000. The plots are hard sold on the basis that planning permission is being actively sought for the land and when planning permission is granted the plots will be worth a lot more than you paid for them. The Scammers tell you that they (or a developer) will buy the plots back once planning permission is granted at the new market value which will be higher because the land is now development land. What the scammers don't tell you is that:

1) There is no prospect whatsoever of planning permission being granted for development of green belt land as it is protected against development by Act of Parliament.

2) The scammers have no obligation to even apply for planning permission under the terms of the contract and in some cases they do not even bother to do so.

3) There is no recorded case of a Land Bank scheme ever producing a successful return for the investors.

4) Building Companies are not interested in buying development land from multiple small plot owners in any case. When you objectively consider the logistics and economics of a big builder paying full market value for each of the small plots in a Land Bank there are so much easier and cheaper ways for them to acquire development land.

5) There is no contractual obligation on anyone to buy the land off you even if planning permission is granted, the only obligation is on you to sell it back to the scammer if he requests it.

There is a good site with articles about the Land Bank scam herehttp://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/fivemyths.htm (http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/fivemyths.htm)
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/infraction.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/infraction.php?do=report&p=12780) http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/report.php?p=12780) http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/ip.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/postings.php?do=getip&p=12780) http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[Freddie]

Yeah sorry for repeating. I was aware of the original post. Its just they've moved their wares around the world and added a strong "you can't go lose investing with anything English" element to it so I felt it worthy of renewal.

[Cuddles]

1) There is no prospect whatsoever of planning permission being granted for development of green belt land as it is protected against development by Act of Parliament.

Not quite. Policy for green belts is set in Planning Policy Guidance 2: Green Belts (http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1C4B6CDA-0EEB-4E50-95A6-0FA7203D0116/0/PPG2.pdf). Green belts are not protected against development. They are protected against "inappropriate" development. The words "appropriate", "in general", "special circumstances" and so on appear an awful lot throughout the document. What this actually means is that since private businesses are unlikely to be able to do anything in them, the government and local councils have a souce of essentially free land to whatever they feel like. Things like roads and sports facilities are specifically mentioned as "appropriate", and as long as some kind of justification is given, they can do pretty much what they please. Green belts aren't as bad as sites of special scientific interest, which are essentially a label inviting as much industry and development as possible, but they're not even close to what most people think they are.

[Legaleagle]

Not quite. Policy for green belts is set in Planning Policy Guidance 2: Green Belts (http://www.planninghelp.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1C4B6CDA-0EEB-4E50-95A6-0FA7203D0116/0/PPG2.pdf). Green belts are not protected against development. They are protected against "inappropriate" development. The words "appropriate", "in general", "special circumstances" and so on appear an awful lot throughout the document. What this actually means is that since private businesses are unlikely to be able to do anything in them, the government and local councils have a souce of essentially free land to whatever they feel like. Things like roads and sports facilities are specifically mentioned as "appropriate", and as long as some kind of justification is given, they can do pretty much what they please. Green belts aren't as bad as sites of special scientific interest, which are essentially a label inviting as much industry and development as possible, but they're not even close to what most people think they are.

Yep, agreed and thanks for the linkO0. I was oversimplifying. I think ,though, for the purpose of making the point that this is a scam, it is important that people understand that it is less likely that the land is going to achieve planning permission if it is in a designated Green Belt and that they should treat claims that planning permission is likely to be granted with even more scepticism.

[underwood]

How do we do the due diligence on one of these companies? Anyone heard of Asset Land Investment PLC located in Mayfair?

[Admin]

The best way is to explain scams is in a generic fashion so that people can learn how they work and so how to spot them.

When it comes to naming individual companies, you really need to have supporting evidence or you could find yourself in a lot of trouble.

[Legaleagle]

I recently received instructions from a Company based in Gibraltar to sell a dozen or so small plots of undeveloped land to private individuals for circa £10,000 each. Being wise to the scam I questioned the "front man" about it closely. It turns out there are no planning permissions for the land, no contract exists which compels anyone to even apply for planning permission, no contract to re-buy the land if planning permission is granted. The instructing Company has convinced the "punters" to pay the purchase money directly into its bank account, (not through the solicitors as is normal) and also convinced them to buy the land without taking their own legal advice.

Classic land bank scam. I told these people where to get off pretty sharpish and they are no longer clients of mine. I just pray they don't find another solicitor who either 1) is not familiar with the scam and goes ahead with the deal in good faith, or 2) doesn't give a **** and goes ahead with it anyway.

What gets me worked up about it is that due to confidentiality rules I can't even tell anyone about it, would dearly love to tip off the Police, DTI, Trading Standards, etc. but can't without risking my livlihood.

[theInvestor]

Not quite.Green belts are not protected against development. They are protected against "inappropriate" development. The words "appropriate", "in general", "special circumstances" and so on appear an awful lot throughout the document. What this actually means is that since private businesses are unlikely to be able to do anything in them, the government and local councils have a souce of essentially free land to whatever they feel like. Things like roads and sports facilities are specifically mentioned as "appropriate", and as long as some kind of justification is given, they can do pretty much what they please. Green belts aren't as bad as sites of special scientific interest, which are essentially a label inviting as much industry and development as possible, but they're not even close to what most people think they are.


I agree with Cuddles.

For now, we do not know which of these green belt lands will be developed. We should be cautious to like what Legaleagle mentioned. But i think it's also unfair to judge and say that these GreenBelt lands will never be developed. Many people do not realize that GreenBelt Land Policy is being relaxed slowly but surely. It is up to the landbanking companies to know which lands will the Government develop. ( through Govt websites & the companies they hire to scout etc. ) We have seen some landbanking scams but there are also companies doing the real deal. I would suggest to whoever is reading this that you be cautious and aware of LandBanking news. Do your part of due diligence when dealing with the company as well. To generalise LandBanking as a scam because of some black sheeps is a pretty amateur act.



PS: This comment is purely from my own experience. Cheers.

[MischiefMonkey]

I agree with Cuddles.

For now, we do not know which of these green belt lands will be developed. We should be cautious to like what Legaleagle mentioned. But i think it's also unfair to judge and say that these GreenBelt lands will never be developed. Many people do not realize that GreenBelt Land Policy is being relaxed slowly but surely. It is up to the landbanking companies to know which lands will the Government develop. ( through Govt websites & the companies they hire to scout etc. ) We have seen some landbanking scams but there are also companies doing the real deal. I would suggest to whoever is reading this that you be cautious and aware of LandBanking news. Do your part of due diligence when dealing with the company as well. To generalise LandBanking as a scam because of some black sheeps is a pretty amateur act.



PS: This comment is purely from my own experience. Cheers.

Could you define 'the real deal' and explain how it differs from a scam?

[Tim the Mage]

Many people do not realize that GreenBelt Land Policy is being relaxed slowly but surely.


I never claim to be an expert but this is a wholy false statement. let me make this very clear, it is untrue, very untrue.

Green Belt policy remains unchanged and, in fact, has tightened in the last couple of decades. And the policy is not a secret - it's here:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/ppg2

The land banking agents do not have any special knowledge unavailable to the real land owners of land leaving the green belts. Land releases are available for all to view in what are called Unitary Development Plans (UDPs) for each planning authority an example can be viewed here:

http://www.bradford.gov.uk/the_environment/planning_service/planning/

The UDPs are being replaced under new legislation with 'Local Development Frameworks' (LDFs) that serve the same purpose in that they identify and allocate land use. No changes to PPG2 (Green Belts) were introduced in the legislation setting up LDFs

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/ldf/ldfguide.html

If you want to speculate on changes in land use allocation in these plans (which is what land bankers promise you) it's quicker and cheaper to do it yourself. Agricultural land isn't expensive - it's certainly cheaper than the rip-off prices pushed by the land bankers - and there's plenty to be had. Green belt land does tend to be slightly more expensive.

[caroLive]

I would think that what theInvestor meant was that real deals are the ones that will get your investment returns... However, because some people go around claiming that investing in a certain investment (e.g. land investments) will guarantee returns, when the returns do not come back and in addition, the money that was initially invested was all lost, we can't say that is the real deal. This could probably be a scam. But then again, this is my speculation...

BTW, on another note, the green belt land policy is not exactly tightening up. In fact, due to the increasing population and (relatively) decreasing land that is available in the UK, the govt is opening up some of the green belt land for investments and buildings... This is to accommodate the future need for homes etc. Therefore, being asked to invest in green belt lands does not mean that you were scammed... It just depends on whether the company that asked you to can be relied upon.

[Tim the Mage]

In fact, due to the increasing population and (relatively) decreasing land that is available in the UK, the govt is opening up some of the green belt land for investments and buildings... This is to accommodate the future need for homes etc.


The land releases that will satisfy this demand are identified in: 1) existing Structure Plans and UDPs; 2) Emerging LDFs. Any other land will remain covered by 'green belt' rules as defined in PPG2 and in individual planning authority policy derived from the local (inspected) interpretation of PPG2.

What the land bank scam does is play on the fact that land will be released from the 'green belt' in line with these plans as a way of making a margin on purchases of agricultural land. The land likely to be released under loval development frameworks is unlikely to be sold in the manner of 'land bankers' since it is either in existing historic private ownership or owned by the development arms of large house builders. I can't say that every land bank offer is a scam but since most of them are, the consumer is best to ignore any offer.

However, the real scam lies in the parcelling up of land and selling it at in excess of double that land's current market value. There is the possibility that this land may become more valuable over time and a very, very small chance of it being developed. If anyone tells you otherwise they are at best talking bullshit and at worse telling montrous porkies!

If you want to do this, go to a land auction and buy agricultural land directly. You'll get a little income and you never know your grandchildren might profit from it!

[MischiefMonkey]

What the land bank scam does is play on the fact that land will be released from the 'green belt' in line with these plans as a way of making a margin on purchases of agricultural land. The land likely to be released under loval development frameworks is unlikely to be sold in the manner of 'land bankers' since it is either in existing historic private ownership or owned by the development arms of large house builders. I can't say that every land bank offer is a scam but since most of them are, the consumer is best to ignore any offer.

However, the real scam lies in the parcelling up of land and selling it at in excess of double that land's current market value. There is the possibility that this land may become more valuable over time and a very, very small chance of it being developed. If anyone tells you otherwise they are at best talking bullshit and at worse telling montrous porkies!



See, that is my understanding of Land Banking also. And neither of our posters sympathetic to Land Banking have explained how 'the real deal' can be any different to the scam as Tim has outlined. If by some unlikely fluke - out of the hands of the Land Bankers - the land does one day become profitable - this doesn't make it 'the real deal'.

[caroLive]

What the land bank scam does is play on the fact that land will be released from the 'green belt' in line with these plans as a way of making a margin on purchases of agricultural land. The land likely to be released under loval development frameworks is unlikely to be sold in the manner of 'land bankers' since it is either in existing historic private ownership or owned by the development arms of large house builders. I can't say that every land bank offer is a scam but since most of them are, the consumer is best to ignore any offer.

Hmm.. If what you say is accurate, does it mean that all land banking companies that say that green belt land will be freed up are scam companies? I personally doubt it. I'm quite a skeptic by nature. But it really transcends any human understanding that any company, if it is a scam, will get itself linked with a law firm to protect not just itself but its customers as well... And i have gone for some presentation workshops done by land banking companies which prides itself that way. Honestly, i wouldn't have believed that. But the company went to the extent of protecting its customers. In that case, would you consider it still a scam?

By saying "I can't say that every land bank offer is a scam but since most of them are, the consumer is best to ignore any offer." I know where you are coming from. I'm more or less just interested in understanding how come you take a stand such as this. Because my perception is that just because there are some failed attempts, or some rotten apples, it doesn't mean that we hide back into our shell and are afraid to try again, or worse, just totally clam up. I'm not advocating that people get scammed by scam companies. However, I'm just intrigued by that comment.

[caroLive]

See, that is my understanding of Land Banking also. And neither of our posters sympathetic to Land Banking have explained how 'the real deal' can be any different to the scam as Tim has outlined. If by some unlikely fluke - out of the hands of the Land Bankers - the land does one day become profitable - this doesn't make it 'the real deal'.

Sorry for the spam, but I was just curious because i am not too sure what theInvestor might have meant. Anyway, just a question, would you suggest there is ANY real deal in ANY investments (might be other forms of investments) at all? Or are investments by nature dependent on "fluke" - as in the supposed case of land investments?

[Tim the Mage]

If what you say is accurate, does it mean that all land banking companies that say that green belt land will be freed up are scam companies?


The current round of spatial planning (under the Planning & Compulsory Purchase Act 2004) local planning authorities are required to identify land for the development to meet a predicted increase in housing demand between now and 2018. It is anticipated that 60%+ of this development will take place on previously developed ('brownfield') land. of the remaining 40% over half is covered by existing plans to release land from the 'Green Belts'. The remainder is subject to a current consultantion process - Bradford Councils can be viewed on this link (http://www.bradford.gov.uk/the_environment/planning_service/local_development_framework/core_strategy_introduction_dpd.htm

There is a possibility that land identified by a 'land banker' might be released from the 'green belt' in the subsequent generation of spatial planning. But under the current schemes I can see no prospect at all of the promises made by land bankers - however well they might be phrases and however legal they are - coming to fruition. Hence scam.



But it really transcends any human understanding that any company, if it is a scam, will get itself linked with a law firm to protect not just itself but its customers as well...


Of course all lawyers and every law firm are entirely trustworthy and would never involve themselves in any attempt to gull money from joe public!

With apologies to our good friend Jack of kent but caroLive you do know how to tell when a lawyer's lying, do you not?

His lips are moving!

[MischiefMonkey]

Sorry for the spam, but I was just curious because i am not too sure what theInvestor might have meant. Anyway, just a question, would you suggest there is ANY real deal in ANY investments (might be other forms of investments) at all? Or are investments by nature dependent on "fluke" - as in the supposed case of land investments?

I don't have a personal nor in depth knowledge of land banking, hence my original question - what is the difference between the scam and the real deal.


Where I see the scam is in selling land that the LB company has no certainty and usually no likelihood of ever turning into profitable development land, yet giving the impression that there is a good chance of a big return. And they don't care. They get their money from the inflated prices they sell the parcels of land at. The 'fluke' is if, despite the really high odds, money is made for anyone other than the Land Bankers (and their Lawyers)

If they sell it honestly, as a highly speculative investment with no likelihood of making a profit, probably loosing money if they need to sell, then I would say that was the 'real deal' - but that isn't likely to attract many buyers is it;D

It is all legal - as long as they are careful with the words - which I'm sure their lawyers check. As such, why wouldn't a lawyer be involved? A solicitor acts - within the law - on his/her client's instruction.

But even if something is legal, it doesn't mean it isn't a scam. Knowingly selling something way over the market price isn't a crime (unless you misrepresent it) but it isn't very honest, especially if you lead people to believe that it is a good price.

To me a 'fluke' depends on the odds. Invest in a guaranteed Government bond, it isn't a fluke when you make a return - it would be a fluke if you didn't!!

Know the market and it isn't a fluke when you see a good return on shares, property, wine or fine art. A friend is currently doing a roaring trade in 100Watt bulbs - great investment on his part and no fluke. Of course there is a risk - but you know the risk when investing.

The problem with Land Banking - unless you know differently - is that the high risk and the minuscule odds of seeing a return are not made explicit.

[caroLive]

Firstly, thanks (to both Tim the Mage and Mischief Monkey) for clearing my doubts. Granted, lawyers have the ability and capability to phrase the words of a contract or a presentation in the best manner that would be in the clients' interest, even though it might not be the exact representation. However, going into that discussion would be a whole new thing altogether about lawyers.

Anyway,


The problem with Land Banking - unless you know differently - is that the high risk and the minuscule odds of seeing a return are not made explicit.

I do think that they do mention the risks that land banking brings. However, it might be that the profits from land banking are higher than other investments, that might be the reason why the risk appears minimal next to the profits. But when compared to any other investments, the risks are actually (maybe) higher. But yes, there are companies that would not be totally honest with the risks... However, if the initial argument (the risks and odds are not made explicit) that was brought forth holds true, then it can also be said of most investments (e.g. wine, stocks, etc) and not just land investments only.

Yet, any human that wants someone to invest in a product, will apparently promote the product as a best and try to "down play" the risks involved. But i would like to believe that as an investor, the responsibility lies in my hands to check through everything and to make sure that what the company tells me is factual, instead of taking in everything that is thrown at me. Any investment definitely carries risks.

You might beg to differ, but i do think that land investments aint all that bad. Just because some companies are a misrepresentation of it (or have misrepresented it) it does not remove the high profits that could come along with it. Land investments are also a bit different from short term investments. Land investments require high capital input and a longer gestation period before the profits are realised. It could be that because of this, it might not seem to be the best and more feasible investment type for all, but if I can afford the capital, the wait and have done a thorough check on the company and the particular plot of land I might be investing in, then i really do not see why i should still shun investing in land.

Did i leave any loopholes? Or should i still not invest?

[Tim the Mage]

No problem with investing in land - some good deals to be had out there at the moment. And if you're prepared or able to tie up capital for a few years with no reurn, could prove a win.

However, if you're serious about this go to an auction of agricultural land and buy directly rather than at the 'land bankers' inflated prices. Or better still look for cleared 'brownfield' sites.

There is an issue around 'effort and return' - land investment no more guarantees 'easy money' than any other investment. To find the right deal requires some effort in terms of research, mrket knowledge and price.

'Land banking' is for the gullible and not the serious investor.

(another option might be a proprty trust - but right now these look a little rocky!)

[caroLive]

However, if you're serious about this go to an auction of agricultural land and buy directly rather than at the 'land bankers' inflated prices. Or better still look for cleared 'brownfield' sites.

There is an issue around 'effort and return' - land investment no more guarantees 'easy money' than any other investment. To find the right deal requires some effort in terms of research, mrket knowledge and price.

'Land banking' is for the gullible and not the serious investor.

(another option might be a proprty trust - but right now these look a little rocky!)

I would agree that investing in land is not an easy way to get high returns, but i do think that the effort pays off, of course with the underlying assumption that the invested plot is the right one. i do think it is feasible to just get the land directly from the agricultural owners themselves, but that would require the investor to first have a huge sum of money. Isnt the land investment companies there to "split" up the land so that any given investor does not have to come out with a huge initial capital?

Take for example, i cannot afford the entire agricultural land and therefore i approach a LB company. They will offer me a small plot out of the entire gigantic plot (of course, i can buy more than one small plot, depending on how much capital i have). If not, wouldn't land investment be unfeasible for at least 90% of the world's population?

[MischiefMonkey]

I would agree that investing in land is not an easy way to get high returns, but i do think that the effort pays off, of course with the underlying assumption that the invested plot is the right one. i do think it is feasible to just get the land directly from the agricultural owners themselves, but that would require the investor to first have a huge sum of money. Isnt the land investment companies there to "split" up the land so that any given investor does not have to come out with a huge initial capital?

Take for example, i cannot afford the entire agricultural land and therefore i approach a LB company. They will offer me a small plot out of the entire gigantic plot (of course, i can buy more than one small plot, depending on how much capital i have). If not, wouldn't land investment be unfeasible for at least 90% of the world's population?

But at a massive mark-up.

As I said, as long as they do not mis-represent the land, all perfectly legal.

And fair enough - buyer beware - as long as they do not misrepresent the possibility of making a return on the investment.

LB buys a field for £20k, splits it into 20 plots sold at £10k each. That is a pretty darn good return for the LB, but 20 people are now sitting on land that is basically worthless. If you can't access your plot without trespassing and can't fence it off, you can't even sell it for agricultural use anymore. Your only chance is if you can find someone else to buy your worthless land for £10K, without the marketing, lawyers and spiel of the Land Banking company.

Better to join with like minded people and buy in a co-operative if you can't afford the field on your own. At least your share might be worth something and it'll cost (and therefore lose) you far less for the same potential return.

I've known the co-operative approach work, not as an investment admittedly, when buying forestry land or stopping a field being sold to Travelers.

[Tim the Mage]

Agricultural land really isn't all that expensive - depends where you are but about £7,000 per acre is pretty much par.

Here's one link which might help preent you getting ripped off by land bankers:

http://www.lawsonfairbank.co.uk/buying-land.asp

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I really know nothing about land investment to be honest but I've read this thread with interest.

As an investor in other vehicles however, I have looked at many things over the years.

There are always a few points I look at before considering whether something is suitable for me as an investment.

If the investment is that good an opportunity and the potential returns are so good, why is it being sold on?

Secondly, what would possibly justify a huge mark-up being placed on the investment? Reputable middlemen in any market are usually dealing in volume at lower margins.

Thirdly, how liquid is the market.

With these companies selling land at inflated prices, I feel the investment opportunity fails on all 3 counts. I appreciate that investors seeking high returns will accept a high level of risk, but the deal seems to be firmly in favour of the land reseller.

These companies may be just on the right side of misrepresentation, but to me it looks like a mug's game.

Any chance its the same type of salespeople involved that are currently rapidly exiting the buy-to-let market? ::)

[Legaleagle]

I have a little experience in this area. I have:

1) Bought landbank plots on behalf of clients who flew in the face of my advice not to purchase. I have subsequently, and in light of experience, stopped doing such transactions altogether.

2) I have received instructions from a Land Banking Company to sell land as individual building plots. (I turned these instructions down after having investigated what they were doing).

3) A member of my extended family is a property developer and has actually sold land as a Land Bank.

My experience of 1) above coupled with all that I have read on the subject suggests to me that no one has ever seen a return on a Land Bank investment. This fact alone would seem to demonstrate outright that Land Banking is a straightforward scam.

My experience of 2) showed me that the people behind Land Banks can be disreputable. You cannot be sure of who you are dealing with, offshore compaies are employed, people are convinced not to take legal advice, cash changes hands, all the hallmarks of dodgy dealing. Never allow yourself to be convinced that there are legitimate reasons for any kind of dodgy dealing. A scammer will come up with almost any excuse he can think of, but the tried and tested methods of business can and should always be employed in any situation.

My experience of 3) was that a property developer I know admitted to me that when he realised that a plot he had bought had a snowballs chance in hell of getting planning permission he subdivided it into small plot and sold it on as a Land Bank investment. Ask yourself why the person who originally acquired the land for development would not want to keep such a great opportunity for profit for themselves?

So Sorry, in light of my experience I am afraid that I can't see that any Land Bank could ever represent "the real deal" as an investment.

[caroLive]

I was thinking long and hard about all the replies that had been recently posted in the past week. And i do agree with some to a certain extent.

However, would it be fair to say that the confidence of ANY investor (regardless of what they are investing in) has dropped, at least by a bit. In a reply to Legaleagle, i agree that there are LB companies out there plainly interested to get the money, period. However, like my earlier argument in some other post, that doesnt mean that there all LB companies are as such. With all due respect, could it be that it so happened that the company that approached you was a scam company? I cant say for sure and neither can i be certain, especially in such uncertain times. I do feel that, from a neutral point of view, this entire LB idea is receiving the "crap and stench" left behind by the ppl who caused this worldwide financial crisis. I still am very risk adverse and at times, i'm still rather critical about investments (that would include analyzing LB) as a whole...

And if i am not wrong when i did some checks, that Land investments take years. They are not immediate or short-termed. Could this be why it seems like no one has any returns from LB as of now?

[Matt]

"I agreee that's true of some but that doesn't mean it's true of all"

Perhaps you have no idea how often we hear that on this forum. Some psychics are frauds, but that doesnt mean that all are. Some chiropractors are quacks but that doesn't mean that they all are. Some energy healers are chareltans but that doesn't mean that they all are. Some sunrises are in the east but that doesn't mean they all are.

OK we don't often hear the last one, I'm allowed a little comic relief but the others we really do hear them all the time. Suprisingly this argument is hardly ever made in response to someone arguing that because some x then all x.

As skeptics (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_skepticism.php) we're open minded to possibilities but we don't believe something just because it's possible. If I say that there is a teapot orbiting the sun beyond Pluto then so long as I'm careful to stipulate that it's too small and too far away to be seen by our intruments then that's possible. No-one can prove me wrong. For that reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot) Bertrand Russell argued that it's not up to anybody to disprove such claims, the burden of proof rests surely upon the shoulders of the person making the claim.

You've claimed that some landbanking schemes might not be scams. I'll grant you that it's possible.

However is it plausible - that's to say can you concoct a scenario where such a scheme would be to both parties benefit? It's easy to imagine that such parcels of land might under some undefined circumstances be a worthwhile investment. It's much harder to specify what circumstances those might be and why the original owner doesn't want to keep this worthwhile investment.

Even if plausibility has been established then there's the matter of liklihood. Is it probable? Should there be conceivable circumstances when someone in possession of such a worthwhile investment finds it in their benefit to parcel it up and share the wealth, would there be alternative courses of action they might take that would be of even more benefit. If there are circumstances where entering into a land banking scheme is a sensible course of action for all parties involved then is it likley that such circumstances might come about?

Finally there is the matter of fact. Is the non-scam Land Banking scheme a fact. Even if it's not totally improbable that doesn't mean it actually happens. However the good news is that proviong that it does skips the other two steps. The only acceptable proof is direct observational evidence of it actually happening. Give us an example of a land banking deal that wasn't a scam and you'll have proved your point. We'll have no choice but to accept this. If it happend then it can't have been beyond the realms of possibility, plausibility or probability.

If you want to set yourself one of the lesser goals of saying that it's probable then go right ahead an outline a probable scenario. If you want to set yourself the lesser goal of saying that it's plausible then go right ahead and outline a plausible scenario.

However if you're happy just saying that it can't be proven as impossible then that's fine too. You're in great company with the people who believe that 911 was staged using advanced alien technology beyond our comprehension, that they hear the voice of God inside their head or that the universe is a computer simulation indistinguishable from reality.

We can't disporve the alien conspiracist because the advanced alien technology is indistinguishable from magic, too poorly defined for us to be able to make arrive at any conclusions about its capabilities.

We can't disprove the schitzophrenic because the very idea of God is too poorly defined for us to be able to say that he doesn't exist that every occurence in the univesrse included this mans voices is not God's will.

We can't disprove the computer simulation theory because it's carefully constructed to allow no differences between what we would observe from within it and what we would expect to observe in reality.

Likewise we can't disprove that there's not at least one land banking scheme where all parties acted in good faith without misrepresentation because we don't have the resources to examine every property deal in history to see whether it fits with such a description.

Insteasd we will continue to do what skeptics do, apply doubt until there's evidence to quash it.

I can do plausible for you but I won't. I can make a stab at probable but the results lead me to conclude that it's quite improbable. However I've sounded off enough and I want to hear what you have to say. You may have different scenarios from me. They may be more plausible and more probable. We'll see.

[Tim the Mage]

We have now:

1) Lawyers with expeience of conveying land banking deals
2) Experienced investors explaining the considerable risks
3) An explanation of the UK's planning system

All of these point otwards land banking being exploitative of the gullible. This is especially notable since there is no re-sale market for plots sold under 'land bank' schemes - because those plots have approaching zero value (especially when the seller retains grazing and other agricultural rights which is normal).

If you have money to invest you will get a better return from investment in RBS or HBOS than you will from these schemes. At least you've a chance there of some dividends - with 'land banking' you merely place you funds in a wholly illiquid investment with unspecified and unpredicatable returns and an unknown point in the future.

[theInvestor]

Yeah i agree with Matt. This being a skeptics forum, we will never know whether UK Land Banking is a fraud or not until you see your returns. Benefit of a doubt is pretty good in an investment where you're dealing with money(a large sum). As of now, we have seen many scam companies and not many good news about people getting returns from their investments. I guess it's perfectly alright to be a little careful and skeptical about the whole UK Land Banking.


My point stands.At the end of the day, it's your decision. If you see your returns in 10years time and you become rich, good for you. Whoever says that it's a scam will eat his/her words. Until then, we'll never know whether aliens exist.

[Tim the Mage]

Yeah i agree with Matt. This being a skeptics forum, we will never know whether UK Land Banking is a fraud or not until you see your returns. Benefit of a doubt is pretty good in an investment where you're dealing with money(a large sum). As of now, we have seen many scam companies and not many good news about people getting returns from their investments. I guess it's perfectly alright to be a little careful and skeptical about the whole UK Land Banking.


My point stands.At the end of the day, it's your decision. If you see your returns in 10years time and you become rich, good for you. Whoever says that it's a scam will eat his/her words. Until then, we'll never know whether aliens exist.

Sorry it's a scam: 1) because the land is sold now at above its value (i.e. you can buy similar land cheaper); 2) the likely releases from the green belt between now and 2018 (that's your tens years) are known - at present around twice as much as is needed is identified so even the big landowners are playing a 50:50 punt; 3) those promoting land banking schemes know there is no prospect of the returns they promise - why sell if the 5X of 10X returns promised materialise. Doesn't make any sense; 4)you've completely misread Matt's point - I think he's saying that we should accept challenge but being skeptical about land banking falls into the same category as being skeptical about 'boiler rooms' (or possibly the flatness of the earth).

As I said, land banking is a scam, a rip-off and should be avoided. Sadly, it's just about legal in a few cases.

[Matt]

The problem is misrepresentation.

Lets say that I sold you a lottery ticket for two pounds. That's double it's intrinsic value but I add value by claiming that I can influence the result and make it five times as likely to win.

Now if I really can influence the result that's not a scam. If I just laugh at the mug who paid double price for a ticket then it is a scam.

Even if one of my victims actually wins some money with a ticket I sold him it's still a scam because they still paid twice as much as they should have done for their ticket on the basis of a lie.

In land banking, so far as the people here have explained people buy a parcel of land at more than it's intrinsic value that has a small chance of multiplying in worth if planning permision is obtained. They do so on the basis that someone is claiming that they can influence this chance.

Now if they really do influence this chance then that's not a scam. If they just laugh at the mug who paid over the odds for the land parcel then it is a scam.

Even if one of the victims actually profits from such a deal then it's still a scam because they paid over the odds for the land parcel on the basis of a lie.

What we need to see in order the validate this hypothetical non-scam land banking scheme is someone who truly adds value to the parcel of land by effective lobbying to get planning application to develop this property.

Non-one's going to eat their words if someone does profit from a land banking deal unless the reason they profited is because the person who sold them the land followed through on their promises.

[MischiefMonkey]

Yeah i agree with Matt. This being a skeptics forum, we will never know whether UK Land Banking is a fraud or not until you see your returns.
Benefit of a doubt is pretty good in an investment where you're dealing with money(a large sum). As of now, we have seen many scam companies and not many good news about people getting returns from their investments. I guess it's perfectly alright to be a little careful and skeptical about the whole UK Land Banking.


My bold - I'm not sure if I understand you right?

I would never give the 'benefit of the doubt' when it came to a large investment - nor even a small one. I would want to know everything I could about the investment, not taking one persons word and certainly not giving the 'benefit of the doubt'. Otherwise I'd be 'investing' in pyramid schemes, buying magic beans and taking those emails from the head of the Nigerian Bank seriously.



My point stands.At the end of the day, it's your decision. If you see your returns in 10years time and you become rich, good for you. Whoever says that it's a scam will eat his/her words. Until then, we'll never know whether aliens exist.So when land banking gives a return, we'll have proof of the existence of aliens? Will Atlantis rise from the depths also?;D

Sorry, shouldn't laugh.

It isn't a case having to eat my words. If an investor makes money in ten years - good for him. But it is amazingly unlikely and not the intention of the LandBankers. Their intention is a short term gain fleecing the gulliable and those who don't do their homework. They aren't selling an investment. They are selling a worthless patch of dirt in order to line their own pockets.

Still would like to hear the definition of 'the real deal' and how this is different to the scam.

ETA: Like Matt's analogy - much clearer:smiley:

[Legaleagle]

Yeah i agree with Matt. This being a skeptics forum, we will never know whether UK Land Banking is a fraud or not until you see your returns. Benefit of a doubt is pretty good in an investment where you're dealing with money(a large sum). As of now, we have seen many scam companies and not many good news about people getting returns from their investments. I guess it's perfectly alright to be a little careful and skeptical about the whole UK Land Banking.


My point stands.At the end of the day, it's your decision. If you see your returns in 10years time and you become rich, good for you. Whoever says that it's a scam will eat his/her words. Until then, we'll never know whether aliens exist.

We all know that if these schemes had any prospect of returns the big boys of the City, the pension funds, the investment banks, the big building firms etc. would have snapped them up. Why is it that no professional investor will touch them? Why are the buyers typically private small investors and foreigners?

The reason to my mind is the information available. The big city boys will have done their research and realised that something doesn't smell right. The inexperienced private individual will not, and is more than likley influenced by the glossing over by salesmen of the flaws in the scheme (I consider your above comments to offer a masterclass in this btw).

I can just picture you sitting in some little old ladies drawing room, giving her the old "Whoever says its a scam will eat their words. Until then, we'll never know whether aliens exist" routine just before she signs a fat cheque for your landbanking chums in the Cayman Islands. Pleasant.

[caroLive]

I must agree that what has been laid on the table is worth taking note of and makes much sense. Matt brought out a great deal of argument that should be taken into account.

I've made some checks with people i know who research on lands that they are interested to invest in. And i am still waiting for some of their answers to the questions that i myself face in this issue with regards to landbanking. And so to giving an example, i am still in the process of inquiring from people who might know better than me (due to them being more inquisitive). Granted, the planning permission might take a long time and it might be said that the landbanking companies cannot change the chance of the planning permission being granted, if i am not mistaken (which i have to go and double check again), there are websites that will show some of the government's plans to increase land space by granting land permission. So i would propose that the landbankers do not directly increase the chance of PP being granted, they do, however, "ride on the wave" of the government's plans.

This is what i can see of LB as of now. And with such a "worldwide-gloom", it's really hard to say much because anything might change at any moment. And probably, what i say or have to offer now, might not necessarily hold tomorrow. (this is a fear that i do have)

[Tim the Mage]

I Granted, the planning permission might take a long time and it might be said that the landbanking companies cannot change the chance of the planning permission being granted, if i am not mistaken (which i have to go and double check again), there are websites that will show some of the government's plans to increase land space by granting land permission. So i would propose that the landbankers do not directly increase the chance of PP being granted, they do, however, "ride on the wave" of the government's plans.


No, no, no, no, no!

No -planning permission takes the time it takes; councils are expected to conclude within 8 weeks (12 weeks for major apps). Appeals are targeted to conclude within three months - unless dealt with at public enquiry.

No - spatial plans identify preferred land usages, they are not grants of planning permission.

No - the extensions are carefully determined on the basis of deliverability which would rule out land banking even were any of these schemes (which they are not) in areas released from the green belt

No - land bankers misinform about the possiblity of permission (there is no possibility)

No - worldwide gloom doesn't change anything in terms of spatial planning allocations (although it will slow down development making the already non-existant changce of land-banking schemes being developed even smaller)

No - land banking is deceptive and exploitative. What I say now - land banking is a scam holds true today, tomorrow and in ten years from now.

[theInvestor]

No - land banking is deceptive and exploitative. What I say now - land banking is a scam holds true today, tomorrow and in ten years from now.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but i have friends who have made profits from Landbanking. Be it in Canadian Land or UK Land whatsoever, so by saying landbanking a scam seems to be like " the fox and the grapes " no?
So lets say i buy a land for a certain some of money, but i've made 3times what i've put in from the returns. The company who sold me the land would have probably make a higher profit because of the price that they sold me i agree with that. So when the company makes a profit from what they sold me, it's a scam unless the company sells me at the original value.

one more question to clarify the doubt. with the increasing population in the country, how will the goverment deal with it without developing the greenbelt? ( granted that we want to save the greenbelt )

[Matt]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i have friends who have made profits from Landbanking.

OK. You're wrong. Why? For all the reasons I've already stated.


Be it in Canadian Land or UK Land whatsoever, so by saying landbanking a scam seems to be like " the fox and the grapes " no?

Not at all. I also know people who have profitted through property deals. Some bought property, added value themselves and sold it at a profit. Some entered into a consortium where their investment was managed by a third party. That third party added value using the investment as capital and the property increased in value. Some even bought property just as a place to live and were simply lucky to see it increase in value.

Good on them I say. No sour grapes.


So lets say i buy a land for a certain some of money, but i've made 3times what i've put in from the returns. The company who sold me the land would have probably make a higher profit because of the price that they sold me i agree with that. So when the company makes a profit from what they sold me, it's a scam unless the company sells me at the original value.

Nope that's not what I said. I said that it's a scam unless the company actually does something to warrant the increased price they're asking for the land.

If they sell it on the basis that they'll be lobbying for development, and applying for planning permission in a manner reasonably expected to be effective then it's not a scam. Even if the punters are lucky then it's still a scam if that luck had nothing to do with the company selling the scheme.


one more question to clarify the doubt. with the increasing population in the country, how will the goverment deal with it without developing the greenbelt? ( granted that we want to save the greenbelt )

Brownfield sites, high rises and development on other non-greenbelt land. Or limit imigration - the major source of UK population growth.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=760

Oh and I don't doubt that you've friends who've profited through land banking schemes. After all your behaviour is not inconsistent with someone representing the interests of the people selling these dodgy investments. I'm sure all the p[eople sellign these investments profit hugely from them. If they've been scamming people long enought thne they might even know of a parcel of land that they sold which did come good through sheer luck if not for any effrot they made on the investors behalf.

However that still doesn't mean these investments aren't scams.

[Tim the Mage]

one more question to clarify the doubt. with the increasing population in the country, how will the goverment deal with it without developing the greenbelt? ( granted that we want to save the greenbelt )


Repeating the provisions of our planning system - currently there is a requirement that two-thirds of housing is built on re-used land. of the remaining third, nearly all the land is already identified or in the process of designation. Moreover, there are significant releases of greenfield land, not in the green belt.

Moreover, the current predictions are wrong (I am confident in saying this becuase every past prediction has been wrong). Key changes: lower levels of immigration, changes to the non-immigration rate of household formation, reuse of currently underused housing and a renewal of traditional dense urban housing types (back-to-backs anyone?).

It is theoretically possible to make miney from land-banking but only through the compounding of the scam.

[ChrisCuba]

theInvestor and CarolLive.

You miss the fundamental issue with UK plot based land banking. This isn't covered in the small print either. Your investment is not in land!

The land plot is normally marked up by at least 10 to 20 times when you buy it. In a current verifiable case London land was purchased at 500 pounds a plot 2 years ago at the peak of the UK property market and is being sold today at 10000 pounds a plot. The land has no real value unless it gets planning permission because it would cost you more than 500 pounds in fees to liquidate the plot assuming you could find someone to buy it. Yes I know you've heard about resale plots going for more but like the timeshare market that's to keep people hooked in. UK Land is currently dropping in price. When the recovery takes place you wont gain more than a few percent per year on that 500 pounds. Just to be clear it is cheap land because its green belt and nobody seriously believes it can get planning permission. It is possible but the chances are very low.

You are buying land futures. You buy into a proposal that a company will get a local authority and a developer to a point where your plot of land will be worth something. The investment you make is in a planning service. It is the quality of the service you should examine.

To get your money back and profit at least four things have to happen.
1: The company has to continue to exist.
2: The company has to diligently process the site to successful planning permission.
3: The site has to be sold at a price profitable to you including deduction of any fees.
4: You have to get paid.

If you research in the UK you can find countless cases of Land Banking companies that have failed at point one on this list.

Why ?
While the land is selling it is all profit. You pay the full price upfront everyone is happy. Nobody runs away when they are making a profit and investors are happy. Once the site is sold out it is all costs, planning expense and maintenance. Does your land banking company have a plan for unlimited multi-year expense to process planning permission ?

Most UK land banking companies have a lifespan of less than 3 years - rarely exceeding 5 years because investors start asking serious questions with their lawyers or the authorities at around 3 years. Unhappy customers and no profits.

When a company fails thousand of people are left with plots they cant sell. So the most likely outcome in 10 years is that the company that sold you the plot and promised to get you planning permission will not exist. Someone new may step in and ask you for even more money to pull all the worried plot holders together and sell the land. Based on the companies that have failed in the UK that "spend lose" cycle will continue until you run out of money or give up.

In estimated risk terms you have perhaps 1/75 chance of green belt land getting planning permission and 1/50 chance of the company still existing giving a product of something like a 00.027% (1 in 3750) chance of any return over 10 years unless you can resell your plot before the company fails. I'm happy to have those numbers disputed but i don't think they are unrealistic. This is not an investment it is a high risk gamble.

Note: If you want to check the original purchase price of the land you are being offered you can do so by paying a small fee to the UK land registry.

[Tim the Mage]

In estimated risk terms you have perhaps 1/75 chance of green belt land getting planning permission and 1/50 chance of the company still existing giving a product of something like a 00.027% (1 in 3750) chance of any return over 10 years unless you can resell your plot before the company fails. I'm happy to have those numbers disputed but i don't think they are unrealistic. This is not an investment it is a high risk gamble.


Don't think the risk is stated high enough - most of the sites identified are (at best) on the extremes of likely shift from green belt/agricultural use to developable land - I would reckon 1/500 is a better estimate in most cases. I also can't find an example of any land banking scheme that has delivered on the initial gamble (I may be wrong). I suspect that many on the companies 'anticipate' non-completion so your 1/50 estimate for continuation is too low too - I would set the product at somewehere between 1/100,000 and 1/250,000. In effect no prospect at all.

The real downside however is that you are unable -in most circumstances - to realise any of your money. The loss is, in effect, 100%.

[ChrisCuba]

I agree with you. My first version had much higher numbers. I was trying to be conservative by using numbers I could easily defend if called on them.

When it comes to plot based land banking there seem to be only two kinds of company.

Those that have failed,run away, closed down or cant be contacted.
Those that have not sold all their land plots yet.

[maxim]

I am from Singapore.

I am both a timeshare owner and land investor. I was checking for timeshares news and was intrigued by this site.

I own timeshare memberships, 2 memberships to be exact, and I am still very happy with them and RCI. I also own investments in both canadian and UK land.

I agree that I have come across some very dodgy companies that sells timeshares and resale timeshares, but I have never come across dodgy companies that sells land investments in Singapore. Thank God that I live in Singapore, where doing checks are what we are used to when doing any forms of investments.

I would just like to state my own points in this site to share my views. There is no need to be personal in this site, may I state, which is already happening here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and views on all things in the world.

I have stayed in UK for 12 years before returning to Singapore 2 years ago.


Seems to me that most of the contriutors here are very much against UK Land investments.
Most statements made by the contributors in this site are not objective.
There are bogus companies in land investments, you just gotta find the right ones to invest with, not in.
The procedures that lead to a piece of brown field, green field or greenbelt land gaining re-zoned and achieving planning permissions as stated in here, are all true and can be verified by relevant authorities.
Buy land in designated housing targeted areas, engage an experienced planner work on the housing plan and apply for planning permission, then selling the re-zoned land to a developer at a high price, this is all true and can be verified by a simple email to the local council authorities. I have done that.
It is wrong that a comment has been made, that "no land has ever gotten planning permission in the whole history!" May I ask then, how can houses be built without permission and without registration?
Things to note when investing in UK Land:

Check that the land is located in areas where it is designated as a probable place for housing developments by the local borough council.
Check the current properties' prices and estimate the land cost.
check the cost of this land and compare to the initial price you pay for the current investment.
I have done all that by myself, and I know that I can rest be assured that it is a good POTENTIAL investment that I have.

I am lucky that I have done my checks before chancing upon this site, I would think that I would have been greatly misled and probably will not even think of checking with relevant authorities. I'm glad it happen this way.
Once again, let's be objective and responsible in our views.

Thank you.

[Legaleagle]

I am from Singapore.

I am both a timeshare owner and land investor. I was checking for timeshares news and was intrigued by this site.

I own timeshare memberships, 2 memberships to be exact, and I am still very happy with them and RCI. I also own investments in both canadian and UK land.

I agree that I have come across some very dodgy companies that sells timeshares and resale timeshares, but I have never come across dodgy companies that sells land investments in Singapore. Thank God that I live in Singapore, where doing checks are what we are used to when doing any forms of investments.

I would just like to state my own points in this site to share my views. There is no need to be personal in this site, may I state, which is already happening here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and views on all things in the world.

I have stayed in UK for 12 years before returning to Singapore 2 years ago.


Seems to me that most of the contriutors here are very much against UK Land investments.
Most statements made by the contributors in this site are not objective.
There are bogus companies in land investments, you just gotta find the right ones to invest with, not in.
The procedures that lead to a piece of brown field, green field or greenbelt land gaining re-zoned and achieving planning permissions as stated in here, are all true and can be verified by relevant authorities.
Buy land in designated housing targeted areas, engage an experienced planner work on the housing plan and apply for planning permission, then selling the re-zoned land to a developer at a high price, this is all true and can be verified by a simple email to the local council authorities. I have done that.
It is wrong that a comment has been made, that "no land has ever gotten planning permission in the whole history!" May I ask then, how can houses be built without permission and without registration?
Things to note when investing in UK Land:

Check that the land is located in areas where it is designated as a probable place for housing developments by the local borough council.
Check the current properties' prices and estimate the land cost.
check the cost of this land and compare to the initial price you pay for the current investment.
I have done all that by myself, and I know that I can rest be assured that it is a good POTENTIAL investment that I have.


I am lucky that I have done my checks before chancing upon this site, I would think that I would have been greatly misled and probably will not even think of checking with relevant authorities. I'm glad it happen this way.

Once again, let's be objective and responsible in our views.

Thank you.

Hi Maxim, and welcome to the site.

I am afraid you seem to have missed the point of this thread. What is being discussed is a scam know as "Land Banking", not investment in UK land as a general proposition, just Land Banking. Can I suggest that you check out "Land Banking" on wikipedia or try the propertyscam.org.uk website, and hopefully these will help you understand what is being discussed.

[caroLive]

To Legaleagle.

I believe if i never interpret Maxim's note wrongly, he/she states that he/she invests in BOTH Canadian and UK Land. However, since there seems to be much resistance against Land investment (particularly in the UK), the reply was specific to that. ;)

I am just curious to find out some things, Maxim. You claimed to have done your thorough checks before you chanced upon this website. Could you elaborate more on it since the other comments were also posted by people who claimed to have done theirs too, or at least, are perceived by me to have done theirs.

Appreciate it a lot. Thanks! :smiley:

[ChrisCuba]

Hello Maxim

This site is not overly negative or unique. A search for land banking scams in Google will identify many reputable media, consumer and government organisations in the UK that warn against land banking. The UK land registry recently issued a warning against Land Banking apparently fed up with getting the same repeated questions.

Land Banking here refers to the purchase of an area of land without planning permission and the sub division into multiple plots. Those plots are then resold at a huge profit to "investors" via the internet, property shows, telesales and sometimes unfortunately financial advisors. In Asia you will often see these companies renting space in shopping malls or hotels at the weekend.

Land Banking scams are a variation on advanced fee fraud. You pay an upfront fee and expect that in the future you will get a much larger sum back. Unlike 419 scams where the fraud is discovered in a few weeks the land plot is used to set your expectation of investment return years into the future. The company has a long period of uncertainty about outcome to extract even more money by milking both the individual and any friends or colleagues who are introduced. Typically this is done with incremental small pieces of "good news" like Gordon Brown making announcements on building council houses. The upsell / cross sell in Land Banking is typically over 60% and similar to timeshare and boiler room scams. Most people buy after being introduced by a friend or colleague.

There are no verifiable reports on any land banking plot sites in the UK gaining planning permission. Some sites report "my friend made thousands of pounds from buying UK land banking plots" but if you ask for details on a planning application or a site there is no answer.

In the largest property bubble the UK has ever experienced 2002 - 2007 there were zero successful conversions of land banking plots sold under the above schemes. In the same period there were 100's of land banking company failures with the investors left with worthless plots.

In the only reported case where a land banking plot company made an application for planning permission in the UK the application failed. The land was also discovered to have a covenant preventing resale at a profit. Even if the planning application had been successful and the site sold, any profit would pass back to the local authority. The "planning experts" at the company had either failed to notice or ignored the covenant when they purchased the land at a very low price for use as farmland.

There is now a secondary scam of individuals offering to process planning applications for owners of plots purchased from land banking companies that have failed. There have been zero successes here either.

[maxim]

Hi Maxim, and welcome to the site.

I am afraid you seem to have missed the point of this thread. What is being discussed is a scam know as "Land Banking", not investment in UK land as a general proposition, just Land Banking. Can I suggest that you check out "Land Banking" on wikipedia or try the propertyscam.org.uk website, and hopefully these will help you understand what is being discussed.

Dear Legaleagle,

Thanks for pointing out the larger picture of this whole forum thread. Please do not take it personally, I just feel that you are pretty put-off by me and my comments.
I would like to point out to everyone in this forum that the words "greenbelt land" has been used many times. This term could only relate to land in UK cos I do not know of any other parts of the world that use terms like these. Therefore, I kinda relate it straight to UK land. Mind you, I didn't start this forum, I just happen to pass through this forum, and with much free time on my hands, I thought I'll chip in my knowledge and involvement.
Let us all share our views and knowledge generously without any bits of sarcasms.
Thank you.

[maxim]

To Legaleagle.

I believe if i never interpret Maxim's note wrongly, he/she states that he/she invests in BOTH Canadian and UK Land. However, since there seems to be much resistance against Land investment (particularly in the UK), the reply was specific to that. ;)

I am just curious to find out some things, Maxim. You claimed to have done your thorough checks before you chanced upon this website. Could you elaborate more on it since the other comments were also posted by people who claimed to have done theirs too, or at least, are perceived by me to have done theirs.

Appreciate it a lot. Thanks! :smiley:

Hi Carolive,

My checks done were very simple...

For my Timeshare Memberships, I already know how it works before purchasing them, therefore I can manage my expectations.

For my investment in Canadian land, I did it because the company has a track record and I was introduced to them by my own good Kakis ("friends" in malay to Singaporeans) who were part of the track record.

For my investment in UK, the invitation came out of the blue. I have a lot of good friends who are still in UK. They did the checks for me at the local Borough Council, Land Registry and The FSA (I've read propertyscam during that period). I have the title deed checked out too.

All in all, all my landbanking investments are legitimate.

I shall share with you my investment success in UK land investments very soon in this year.

[Legaleagle]

Hi Carolive,

My checks done were very simple...

For my Timeshare Memberships, I already know how it works before purchasing them, therefore I can manage my expectations.

For my investment in Canadian land, I did it because the company has a track record and I was introduced to them by my own good Kakis ("friends" in malay to Singaporeans) who were part of the track record.

For my investment in UK, the invitation came out of the blue. I have a lot of good friends who are still in UK. They did the checks for me at the local Borough Council, Land Registry and The FSA (I've read propertyscam during that period). I have the title deed checked out too.

All in all, all my landbanking investments are legitimate.

I shall share with you my investment success in UK land investments very soon in this year.

Alarm bells are starting to ring now. You are from Singapore and this invitation came out of the blue to make an investment in a land scheme in the UK. All hallmarks of a Landbank scam.

Of course, without seeing the contract you signed I would have no means of knowing if you have been the victim of a scam. Are you able to tell us:

Did you buy an undeveloped piece of farmland described to you as a "building plot"?

Is the plot self-contained (i.e. does it have its own access to a public road, utilities etc.) or is it part of a larger series of plots?

What has the Local Authority told you is the current authorised use for the land?

Has planning permission for change of use to residential use been granted?

If not, have the Local Authority confirmed to you that it has been applied for?

Does your contract with the seller contain any provisions which compel them to apply for planning permission on your behalf, (please disregard any verbal assurances which you were given as they have no legal status in land sales in the UK)?

Did a solicitor check the title to the land for you and confirm that there were no legal impediments (e.g. covenants against change of use) to development?

In what jurisdiction is the seller company based, in the UK or offshore?

What is the area (size) of the land you bought and how much did you pay for it?

If you have been the victim of the scam it is probably too late to get your money back, but it is not too late to save yourself from further losses through secondary scams.

[maxim]

Alarm bells are starting to ring now. You are from Singapore and this invitation came out of the blue to make an investment in a land scheme in the UK. All hallmarks of a Landbank scam.

Of course, without seeing the contract you signed I would have no means of knowing if you have been the victim of a scam. Are you able to tell us:

Did you buy an undeveloped piece of farmland described to you as a "building plot"?

Is the plot self-contained (i.e. does it have its own access to a public road, utilities etc.) or is it part of a larger series of plots?

What has the Local Authority told you is the current authorised use for the land?

Has planning permission for change of use to residential use been granted?

If not, have the Local Authority confirmed to you that it has been applied for?

Does your contract with the seller contain any provisions which compel them to apply for planning permission on your behalf, (please disregard any verbal assurances which you were given as they have no legal status in land sales in the UK)?

Did a solicitor check the title to the land for you and confirm that there were no legal impediments (e.g. covenants against change of use) to development?

In what jurisdiction is the seller company based, in the UK or offshore?

What is the area (size) of the land you bought and how much did you pay for it?

If you have been the victim of the scam it is probably too late to get your money back, but it is not too late to save yourself from further losses through secondary scams.

Dear Legaleagle,

Thanks for your questions. Though most of my own have gone unanswered, I'll try to satisfy yours.

Firstly, I don't understand why alarm bells are ringing in your ears. I will have these following points to share with you and all fellow netizens in this forum.


The site that I have invested in, has not gain any grants of any residential planning permission, that is the reason why I am investing in the site for. If the site had already achieved any planning permission, I don't think I would have any chance of investing in it.
Yes, I have checked with the local borough council of the usage of my site, and have been told that the site can be developed with the achievement of gaining planning permission.
I am already in receipt of my Title Deed (Title Absolute) from the relevant Government Office and had verified it online via the Government Website (I had to pay a small fees to do my checks online via the government portal).
My plot of land is real, as is the Title Deed, cos it's issued from the Landregistry Office, as in the same as my fellow kakis who have invested in the same location.
I hope, for all others who have invested in land, that you would be as fortunate as I am, to have invested with and through the right and proper company.

Thank you.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Firstly, I don't understand why alarm bells are ringing in your ears. I will have these following points to share with you and all fellow netizens in this forum.


If you've read this whole thread and properly understood LE's questions, then you must be a naive investor......


I hope, for all others who have invested in land, that you would be as fortunate as I am, to have invested with and through the right and proper company.

Thank you.

.....unless you are about to now tell us the name of this right and proper company.

[Tim the Mage]

Dear Legaleagle,

Thanks for your questions. Though most of my own have gone unanswered, I'll try to satisfy yours.

Firstly, I don't understand why alarm bells are ringing in your ears. I will have these following points to share with you and all fellow netizens in this forum.


The site that I have invested in, has not gain any grants of any residential planning permission, that is the reason why I am investing in the site for. If the site had already achieved any planning permission, I don't think I would have any chance of investing in it.
Yes, I have checked with the local borough council of the usage of my site, and have been told that the site can be developed with the achievement of gaining planning permission.
I am already in receipt of my Title Deed (Title Absolute) from the relevant Government Office and had verified it online via the Government Website (I had to pay a small fees to do my checks online via the government portal).
My plot of land is real, as is the Title Deed, cos it's issued from the Landregistry Office, as in the same as my fellow kakis who have invested in the same location.
I hope, for all others who have invested in land, that you would be as fortunate as I am, to have invested with and through the right and proper company.

Thank you.

Oh dear, oh dear! Don't think you'll be seeing your money back this side of the little devils lacing up their ice skates.

[ChrisCuba]

Yes, I have checked with the local borough council of the usage of my site, and have been told that the site can be developed with the achievement of gaining planning permission.


This is an actual local authority response on a Land Banking site in London.

"I can say that under current circumstances there is next to no chance of a residential development being approved on land that I know is being marketed by xxxx. The land is identified as being within the Metropolitan Green Belt in the Hounslow's Unitary Development Plan. It is also a nature conservation area. You can read the relevant UDP policies at hounslow.gov.uk (http://www.hounslow.gov.uk) I can not predict with any certainty what the situation will be in three or four years time but I am not aware of any firm indications that the development plan situation will change within this period."

The local authority wont predetermine the outcome of a planning application other than to try and give guidance as above. Otherwise there would be no point in having the planning application process. Democracy at work :smiley:

I have no doubt you read the above to mean that in a few years this site will get planning permission. You will argue that since they don't say no it could be yes.

Assuming you are telling the truth and are not representing a vendor almost certainly you have bought land that wont get planning permission. They were able to buy it cheaply and sell it to you at a large profit because it wont get planning permission. Also the fact that you are being sold the land halfway around the world tells me its probably a scam but seems to tell you you have been especially selected.

Check the UK PropertyScam website which over the last couple of days has added an item on 4 land banking plots being sold on eBay. They were purchased for a total of 50,000 pounds and have just been sold for a grand total of 1220 pounds. I calculate a loss of 97%.

I am sure you believe your plots and your Land Banking vendor are different but you might want to ask yourself why you believe that.

[Mulder]

So, people are investing in green belt land in the hope that it will be built on! Nice! :smiley:

[Croydon Bob]

Assuming you are telling the truth and are not representing a vendor That's a big assumption. It is very possible that 'maxim' isn't a victim but is simply trying to create a bit of confusion on this thread so that someone else searching the web for info won't realise so readily that Land Banking is a scam.

[Legaleagle]

That's a big assumption. It is very possible that 'maxim' isn't a victim but is simply trying to create a bit of confusion on this thread so that someone else searching the web for info won't realise so readily that Land Banking is a scam.

Bob, forgive me for saying so, but don't you think that some of the shenanigans of correspondents cropping up on this site might just have turned you into a jaded cynic? ;)

[MischiefMonkey]

That's a big assumption. It is very possible that 'maxim' isn't a victim but is simply trying to create a bit of confusion on this thread so that someone else searching the web for info won't realise so readily that Land Banking is a scam.

So lets be unequivocal.

Land banking is a scam.

If you are offered a plot of land without planning permission at over the going rate for agricultural land, it is a scam.

LeagleEagle asked some fantastic questions. Which Maxim failed to answer, despite a less than valiant attempt. If you (or the vendor of the land) can't answer the questions satisfactorily - with written evidence - then it is a scam.

If you don't understand LeagleEagle's questions, or their importance, or what constitutes 'satisfactorily' in this context, then you probably shouldn't be investing in land.

[caroLive]

Bob, forgive me for saying so, but don't you think that some of the shenanigans of correspondents cropping up on this site might just have turned you into a jaded cynic? ;)

Is there some secret activity that is taking place? Hmm.. Bob, i suppose Maxim is just trying to make the entire argument more sound by providing an alternative viewpoint. hopefully, Maxim is not trying to cause any confusion to us! :undecided:

Anyway, i seem to be getting a clearer picture of landbanking from both sides now. Thank you to all who have contributed in providing both sides of the argument. :smiley:

[Croydon Bob]

Thank you to all who have contributed in providing both sides of the argument. Both sides? The two sides being the truth that it is a scam and the lie that it isn't?

[Tim the Mage]

Both sides? The two sides being the truth that it is a scam and the lie that it isn't?

...we put a poster on my Dad's office wall one - it said: "I always look at both sides of the argument, my side and the wrong side."

[alantanblog]

Land banking is not an easy investment esp to newbie. Some of the Top Land banking in Malaysia was raided by the authority recently.

[caroLive]

To Bob and Tim:

I think i am no expert to comment about that, but i think that whichever side you or even the other party is on, both will feel that their side is the right side. So it just helps by knowing LB better through different perspectives, so to speak.


Land banking is not an easy investment esp to newbie. Some of the Top Land banking in Malaysia was raided by the authority recently.

hmm.. Recently? was there? I thought the ones that were raided was quite a while back.

[Matt]

What's all this stuff about "both" sides and "either" side?

What's my favourite colour?

In that quesiton at least you can see that there's one right answer and many more wrong answers.

There's plenty of "Sides" to an argument.

In this case there's the vendor's side. They want you to believe that they are actively lobbying to produce a return on your investment. That's either true or it isn't.

They want you to believe that their promise to do so is binding. That's either true or it isn't.

They want you to believe that people investing in similar schemes have been happy customers of theirs. That might be true, such happy customers might exist, might be in a negligable minority, might be a majority, might have benefited from luck, might not have benefitted had thier land banker not have worked so hard for them.

They want you to believe that the appearance of such happy customers means that you'll be a happy customer too. That's either true or it isn't

There's the side of fraudulent vendors. They want to raise the issue of toher property deals which are not Land Banking. They want to repesent the naysayers as claiming that all property deals are scams. That's either true or it isn't

They also want you to believe that the satisfied customers they're presenting really are happy land banking customers ratehr than shills. That's either true or it isn't.

There's the optimistic customers side. They want to believe that their investment will pay off. That might be true or might not with various probabilities/shades of grey in between.

They've already taken the action and a belief not in keeping with that action would cause cognitive dissonance. Cognititive dissonance could cause them to shell out more money to fund further schemes to protect/enhance they. That such further schemes are worthwhile imight be true or might not with various probabilities/shades of grey in between.

There's the pessimistic customers side. They've invested in land banking and had a bad experience. Either they've found out too late that other people have been scammed and broken through the congnitive dissonace to arrive at the beleif that they've been scammed too or the company they invested through has dissappeared without trace leaving them in no doubt that barring unconnected good fortune their parcel of land will remain cheap agricultural dirt. They want you to believe that they're tellging the truth about their experience. That's either true or it isn't.

There's the consumer advocates side. They have no dog in this race. However they would have you beleive that they've investigated certian land banking schemes and found that they're not good investments. That might be true or might not with various probabilities/shades of grey in between. They report that claims made in selling these schemes misrepresent the role of the vendor in making promises whihc are not kept and do not appear in the written contract. That's either true or it isn't.

They beleive that potential investors should be aware of these types of scams to that they can protect themselves. That's either true or it isn't.

There's the side of inductive reasoning which says that if every landbanking scheme investigated has the traits assocaited with the scams reported by the consumer advocates then it is reasonable to take the default position that all Land Banking schemes, investigated or not, have these traits until someone comes along to demonstrate otherwsie. That's either true or it isn't.

There's the cynics side which says that even if somebody does come along to demonstrate otherwise they're probably a shill. That's either true or it isn't.

There's a gagillion differnent absurdist points of view which range from if Land Banking property deals are scams then so are all proberty deals, to land banking schemes are operated by jellied do-nuts from the Oort cloud which you'd be able to demonstrate if only you had a powerful enough telescope. These may all either be true or not.

Now if you want to examine all sides of every argument I'll see you when you get back from the Oort cloud, and I'll have a dozen or more other wild goose chases to send you one.

Of you can examine only the claims of interest to you in isolation, weigh the evidence for that claim and come to a conclusion.

Here's my testimony. I worked in IT for a property company. IT's IT whetehr you work for a biscuit manfacturer or a manure trader but you still pick up on some of what's going on. My conclusion is that there's a huge amount of money to be made in the property business. For the most part it's high risk, high reward long term stuff. It's a nasty business and good, intelligent men and women get screwed over all the time. I know people who've taken hundreds of thousands of pounds and turned it into many millions and I know people who've had millions and been turned into paupers because they trusted the wrong people.

I've no reason to doubt that scam land banking schemes exist. That these are scams because the vendor makes promises they have no intention of keeping. I can plausibly manufacture a scenario where a similar scheme might be a worthwhile investment where the vendor is contractually obliged to to keep their promises and motivated to do so by a comparable level of investment in the same scheme. Where the vendor reluctantly needs investment from outside to pursue their schemes either from a financial point of view or for the investor's expertise.

As a matter of convenience it might be easy to say that all schemes labelled as Land banking are scams and that all other property deals aren't. However it's not the label that makes a scheme a scam or not it's the qualities of that scheme. If you entered into a scheme which promised that they'd add value to your investement by carrying out a certain action and then in the contract there's not such promise then that is by definition fraud - offiering one thing and delivering another. There's many different other sides you could consider but only one truth and that's it.

Oh and in case you were wondering I don't have a favourite colour but before I grew out of having one it was red, and before that blue, and before that yellow.

[Tim the Mage]

Land banking is not an easy investment esp to newbie. Some of the Top Land banking in Malaysia was raided by the authority recently.

I t may not be easy but it surely is stupid.

[maxim]

Dear All,

It seems that my comments have touched a few nerves which I never have the intention to.

I am sharing my plain views through my own findings and understandings, just like all of you who are airing your own thoughts and opinions. All I really wanted was to share why I do invest. If I had ruffled anyone's feathers, it's beyond my control.

I was asked if I'm going to mentioned names of the companies that I have invested with. I don't see a need. But if some of you would like to know, in Singapore, there're a few credible companies we have here. They are mainly Walton, Jardin Smith, Profitable Group and Edgeworth. I have invested with 2 of these companies. If any of you would like to share any informations and proof that any of these companies are a scam, please do, cos it will shed more light on the scams that have been mentioned so frequently by some of the contributors in this forum.

I believe that many of us would believe in this...There's more "needs" to prove a company's scams than to prove it's legitimacy and potential.

[Legaleagle]

Maxim,

All we as UK Skeptics can do is to share the benefit our our own experiences and knowledge with you. I have not researched any of the companies you mention, nor do I have the time to do so, and even if I did, I am not sure where it would get us.

I can only offer you my advice, as a English Solicitor (lawyer), based upon a numbers of these schemes which have come across my desk over the last few years. Frankly, if that is not good enough for you then I am not sure what could be.

At the end of the day, as Matt has pointed out, we on UK Skeptics do not have a dog in this race. We have nothing to gain or lose from Landbanking and are merely discussing the topic. It is up to you to decide what you want to do with the information on this site, but I would strongly suggest that you take it on board.

All the best, whatever you decide to do.

[ChrisCuba]

Maxim

This thread is specifically concerned with UK land banking plots. People on this forum are mainly from the UK and it is a UK centric discussion group.

Two of the companies you mention offer UK land banking plots. Neither of the two companies you mention that offer UK plots have operations in the UK. One of the companies was liquidated in the UK at the end of 2007. This company was also mentioned negatively in a UK Guardian consumer report recently. The local authorities can see no chance of planning permission for their plots. All four of the companies you mention have been raided by authorities in Malaysia in the past 6 months.

But I'm sure you already know that.

The original poster of this thread was concerned that UK land plots were being seriously misrepresented and oversold in Asia and felt some shame and wanted to raise awareness. My own research indicates he was right.

UK folk with good motives and UK legal, operational and cultural knowledge have made an effort to communicate concerns to people like you via this forum. There are many other significant warnings on the internet including Property Scam, the UK government, UK consumer authorities and reputable UK news media. Again search for Land Banking Scams in Google

I think we can safely say that in your case Maxim you have passed the point of ignorance or being misled and have enough information to choose. You are aware of the serious concerns on UK Land Banking plots in the UK (and Malaysia) and you are choosing to ignore them.

To prevent dilution on the original message and for people who have come to this thread on what is now page 5!

UK plot based Land Banking is so far always a bad investment. Based on all experience to date you will not get the returns suggested. Tens of thousands of people have lost all of their investment with no chance of recovery. Read the two threads on this forum or go to a site called propertyscam.org.uk if you want more information. In a few cases where people have got their original investment back it was with the help of a lawyer and before the Land Banking company had sold all of the plots and disappeared. If you are concerned about a Land Banking investment you would be wise to take legal advice and approach the company immediately to discuss options.

[josey]

Since it's a discussion topic, i feel that everyone should has their fair share of speech. Whether or not Maxim is right or Leagleagle is right, at the end of the day it's really up to the consumers tho. We can blabber all day and this will get nowhere. just my 2cents worth

[Tim the Mage]

Since it's a discussion topic, i feel that everyone should has their fair share of speech. Whether or not Maxim is right or Leagleagle is right, at the end of the day it's really up to the consumers tho. We can blabber all day and this will get nowhere. just my 2cents worth

...so it's OK for me not only to argue that the moon is made from green cheese but to sell you said cheese in tastefully beribboned boxes?

In general terms these folk running land banking schemes are...what's that word now...rhymes with those things in the library and starts with the same two letters as crap. Which sums up their offers.

[Matt]

Since it's a discussion topic, i feel that everyone should has their fair share of speech.

They do.

Next.

[ChrisCuba]

As mentioned by the UK Times this week. I would like to introduce Maxim, Josey and CaroLive (are they three people or one?) to an incredible highly profitable land investment opportunity in Poyais. If you are impressed with UK Land Banking Plot investments you will love this unique global investment opportunity. Get in before all the plots are snapped up. The estimated returns surely will exeed anything you can obtain from those incredible UK Land Banking Plots.

More details below.

http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/20/poyais-futures-still-available/ (http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/20/poyais-futures-still-available/)
http://www.clangregor.org/Poyais/

[caroLive]

As mentioned by the UK Times this week. I would like to introduce Maxim, Josey and CaroLive (are they three people or one?) to an incredible highly profitable land investment opportunity in Poyais. If you are impressed with UK Land Banking Plot investments you will love this unique global investment opportunity. Get in before all the plots are snapped up. The estimated returns surely will exeed anything you can obtain from those incredible UK Land Banking Plots.

More details below.

http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/20/poyais-futures-still-available/ (http://sydwalker.info/blog/2008/12/20/poyais-futures-still-available/)
http://www.clangregor.org/Poyais/

Sorry, i was looking through the rest of the updated thread when i saw this statement that i found kinda ridiculous. Isn't it obvious that the three nicknames represent three different people, even though i am not sure who the other two of them are. Likewise, i am also not sure who the rest of you are.

I was interested to find out about the pros and cons about LB and that was how i chance upon this website. nothing else. :cheesy:

[Croydon Bob]

To summarise this thread: UK land banking – be very very wary.

[josey]

...so it's OK for me not only to argue that the moon is made from green cheese but to sell you said cheese in tastefully beribboned boxes?



whatever floats your boat and make you happy. I don't care.

[ChrisCuba]

I can plausibly manufacture a scenario where a similar scheme might be a worthwhile investment where the vendor is contractually obliged to to keep their promises and motivated to do so by a comparable level of investment in the same scheme. Where the vendor reluctantly needs investment from outside to pursue their schemes either from a financial point of view or for the investor's expertise.

I can plausibly manufacture a scenario where a complete stranger might really pay me 15% to help him get 12 million dollars out of Nigeria.
Its a scam all the same.

[tichaona]

Is anyone aware of a UK Solicitor or Law Firm who would be prepared to take on a case on a no win no fee base against a Land banking company which misinformed its Investors?

[Matt]

Is anyone aware of a UK Solicitor or Law Firm who would be prepared to take on a case on a no win no fee base against a Land banking company which misinformed its Investors? I can't I'm afraid. The MO with these firms is apparently to disappear once the plots are sold. There may not be anyone left to sue. Still I wonder if you've considered trading standards

[Stevie]

Hi guys, Stevie here from singapore too.

I really appreciate the wealth of talented and insightful people sharing and warning netizen of the potential risk of Land Investment.

Now for my story, I have a very very close friend of mine who was actually approached by a Singapore based UK land investment company (its one of those that MAXIM had listed).

My buddy was sold on the idea and was just sharing with us how he came to know about this investment. This is where it felt weird, it was almost identical to the "sale tactic" posted on the front page.

My buddy told me about this just a few days ago and seems eager to commit 16k SGD into the piece of land.

If im not wrong the area for development is Cohcester. Apparently the sale staff did a good job in painting an excellent picture and was a brit too which doubly increase my bud confidence in the company. The promised return is 350% for a period of 5-7 years.

I had my doubts therefore here am I doing my due dilligence on his behalf. What i found was certainly not very assuring...:sad:. My finding how contridict with our newletter release on a gov website which seems to be promoting Land Investment in UK citing promised gains.

I find it neccessay to share the link with you guys so as to shed more truth or whatnot about this article.

//mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/18D01A15-124C-4C2C-B2DC-DBBCA6CA2E91/0/Bankingontherightbet.pdf
(as i have not chalk up euough post i cant post a link)

I only hope I can get my friend in time to see this site before he make a decision..

[lost thought]

http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/18D01A15-124C-4C2C-B2DC-DBBCA6CA2E91/0/Bankingontherightbet.pdf.com (http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/18D01A15-124C-4C2C-B2DC-DBBCA6CA2E91/0/Bankingontherightbet.pdf.com)

Here is your link.
The housing market is a bit slow in the UK but I’m no expert I’ll leave that to them to explain the authenticity of this document.

[Stevie]

Here is your link.
The housing market is a bit slow in the UK but I’m no expert I’ll leave that to them to explain the authenticity of this document.

Thanks for helping me put the link up, the authenticity is a definite as its on the Singapore gov webby

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I think this paragraph at the end says it all:


“This investment is hassle-free in so
much that you put the money in and
just wait. It’s not an investment that
needs to be tracked on a day-to-day
basis like stocks, which some people
are more comfortable with and others
less so and that’s fi ne,” says Mr Purr

You will end up waiting for ever. The only hassle being that you will be unlikely to ever get your money back.

I just glanced through the rest of it to be honest, but I personally cannot think of a single reason why to even consider land banking as a worthwhile and credible investment opportunity.

The rest of this thread has already reached the conclusion that you need I'm afraid.

[Matt]

//mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/18D01A15-124C-4C2C-B2DC-DBBCA6CA2E91/0/Bankingontherightbet.pdf
(as i have not chalk up euough post i cant post a link)

I only hope I can get my friend in time to see this site before he make a decision..

Doesn't look like the article is completely attrocious. It mentions outright scams that have been closed down. The risks of UK Land Banking are made quite clear.

Earlier I mentioned that a developer requiring investment for a project might make sense. You can see how they're incentivised to work for a Win-Win outcome. You just need to check to contract and ask why they're offering investment opportunities.

[ChrisCuba]

Stevie here from singapore too.
....was just sharing with us how he came to know about this investment. This is where it felt weird, it was almost identical to the "sale tactic" posted on the front page.
If im not wrong the area for development is Colchester. Apparently the sale staff did a good job in painting an excellent picture and was a brit too which doubly increase my bud confidence in the company. The promised return is 350% for a period of 5-7 years.
My finding how contridict with our newletter release on a gov website which seems to be promoting Land Investment in UK citing promised gains.

I only hope I can get my friend in time to see this site before he make a decision..

Singapore has very strict defamation laws (I hope i won’t get sued for saying that). Overly fair balance is often applied and its almost impossible to express a public written opinion that wont get you in some kind of trouble. A spade is not represented as a spade in Singapore without the spades opinion that it is a sophisticated sensitive earth mover being included. Breast enhancement creams were regularly advertised in the mainstream press when i was there. UK Land Banking plots are as useless as breast enhancement cream and a lot less fun to rub on your partner.

A Land Banking company was advertising 250% 3 year returns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K43f-jvMG2o) on mainstream TV when I was visiting Singapore end 2008 as world economies were falling apart. The UK press has commented on this (http://www.hounslowchronicle.co.uk/west-london-news/local-hounslow-news/2009/08/13/is-concorde-village-a-real-opportunity-109642-24443896/)but not in Singapore.

Since i know this site discourages naming companies I won’t but here are a couple of useful links that may give you information on how to find out more on Land Banking in Colchester or other areas.

You can openly ask the UK local council about any claims made. You can see an example of formal public discussion of a Colchester land banking planning application here (http://www.planning.colchester.gov.uk/WAM/findCaseFile.do?appNumber=090312) and here. (http://www.planning.colchester.gov.uk/WAM/findCaseFile.do?appNumber=073130) The same site featured in a Guardian article here. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/12/mike-ashley-newcastle-united-singapore-profitable) Both applications failed and if you read some of the comments on the application you can see the purpose of the applications was understood. There is a newspaper item from 2005 on another Colchester site here (http://archive.gazette-news.co.uk/2005/3/17/118605.html) which is amazingly still being advertised in 2009

What if you suspect the council aren’t being completely open or responsive ?
Submit a freedom of information request as happened here. (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/position_on_green_belt_and_lower)Far from showing corruption this shows the internal frustration and limited resources of a local authority at having to answer the same question (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/10130/response/24694/attach/12/PROFITABLE%20PLOTS%20010409.htm.html) over and over again . Also their politeness when responding to a question about “tell me if I should be investing 250K Pounds (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/10130/response/24695/attach/7/Green%20Belt%20Enquiry%20Concorde%20Village%200704 09.htm.html) tomorrow”. If you have to ask.....

Against this kind of clearly documented information the Land Banking salesperson may verbally claim inside information for fast track approvals that the local authority and general public is not aware of. The same tactic used is in pump and dump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump) scams. Of course this shady wink wink nudge nudge conspiracy information will remain undocumented and is blatantly untrue. Land Banking does not cure cancer and Gordon Brown does not own 10% of the site.

As anywhere else in the world there is occasional corruption and insider dealing in the UK planning system. However why would a commission based land banking salesperson in an Asian shopping centre have unique access to that information worth millions of dollars when apparently nobody in the UK is exploiting it?

[ernestobritt]

Is anyone aware of a UK Solicitor or Law Firm who would be prepared to take on a case on a no win no fee base against a Land banking company which misinformed its Investors?

Hi,

My simple piece of advice is to look in the yellow pages for your area, and see if you can find UK solicitors who well experienced. You can also search online to find reputed solicitors. This will give you the specialization from the solicitor who knows all the laws.

__________________
Ernesto Britt
Hinchliffes.co.uk

[06bannea]

I think you should all read this...
(http://www.mynewsdesk.com/gb/view/pressrelease/london-internet-agency-asset-land-inc-look-to-continue-growth-in-2010-358322)

[Admin]

I think you should all read this...
(http://www.mynewsdesk.com/gb/view/pressrelease/london-internet-agency-asset-land-inc-look-to-continue-growth-in-2010-358322)

If you have a point to make can you make it in your own words. O0

[polomint38]

If you have a point to make can you make it in your own words. O0

06bannea has tried to reignite a 2 year old thread on SCAM.COM today >:-)

[ggreen]

There are many of these type of companies still operating in the UK despite the FSA clamping down on them and trying to close them down. They have tried to circumvent the collective investment scheme problem, but it is still a rip off, if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it is a dog. They have to stop all of theses scam operators from trading and taking huge amounts of money off poor unsuspecting people.

I have recently been approached by another company by the the name of Quadra Land and Property based in London selling land in near Liverpool and Burnley, trying to sell me a small plot of land, for ten thousand pounds, valued at a few hundred worth absolutely nowhere near the amount they are quoting, with the promise that it will get planning permission, absolute rubbish!! Do not be tempted and give them your hard earned money. They are taking people for millions and need to be stopped!!

BE WARNED DO NOT BE TAKEN IN BY THEIR LIES!

[ChrisCuba]

The land Banking company that was offering 250% returns on hounslow and colchester UK land plots in Singapore TV adverts for 4 years or so is now under investigation by the Singapore commercial affairs department and has put onto the monetary authority of Singapore investor alert list. The inevitable victim support site has been set up. Sadly though the vultures circling and a UK law company is contacting all investors and offering for a fee of only 100 UKP to confirm their land registration documents. A quick look at their web site shows they offer wealth management services and no doubt they will be trying to line these poor suckers up with yet more "alternative investments" to absorb the rest of their spare cash.

[Thomas123]

I used to work for Asset Land Management in Mayfair, but when a number of us realised that it was a scam we left. Plots of land where purchased from a church, when they were split into plots it only cost them £100 per plot but they are selling them for in access of £13k. They sell them and get people to sign contracts and say that they will not have to pay a penny going forward and that whatever their plot sells for they get it all. But all the people who have purchased the plots have to group together to make a managment team for when it comes to applying for planning, obviously this will cost. Nobody at Asset Land expects it to get to this point and if it did sell the church who sold the land is intitled to a rather large share of the profits and nobody is aware of this fact when they are buying the plots. I am not legal and I don't understand the contracts, but I do know that all the managment are aware of what they are doing and can sleep easily at night while people have essentially lost their life savings.