Does meditation achieve anything?

[Janot]

According to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7319043.stm) article, it does. Are they correct that it is normally dismissed by sceptics?

[Admin]

From the article:


Sceptics argue that it is not a practical way to try to deal with the stresses of modern life.

That's using the term "sceptic" to mean "disbeliever" or "opponent" - not the way we would use the term (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_skepticism.php).

Unfortunately the term gets used this way a lot. Anyone who disbelieves anything, whether it's justified or not, is simply referred to as a "sceptic".

Of course, whether meditation 'works' or not depends on what the claims for it are.

This programme is on BBC2 at 9PM tonight.

[SimonC]

According to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7319043.stm) article, it does. Are they correct that it is normally dismissed by sceptics?

As John says, I think it depends upon the way one defines the term 'sceptics'. Sam Harris is, I think, quite a proponent of meditation.

I have used meditation techniques myself, initially to overcome a bout of insomnia several years ago. I still find it quite an interesting practice, although I don't find anything mysterious or spiritual about it - it's simply a form of focussed relaxation, for want of a better term.

I would be extremely doubtful about accepting any of the more outlandish statements about it, and some of the claims made by Buddhists ( levitation, for example ) seem quite proposterous.

[DrS]

Have been on a transcendental meditation course myself, and agree with you, Simon. It's a focused relaxation technique, pure and simple, and I found it worked for that. To his credit, the "trainer" was at pains to point out that any ideas or images occuring during TM were simply a release mechanism of the brain, and not of any "spiritual" or religious meaning. Whether he was right about the release mechanism bit, I have no idea, but he was notably down to earth and free of woo.

[jimbo]

Well as a meditator for the last 18 years - I just want to point out that TM (vedic flying) has nothing to do with Buddhism and always seemed bogus to me. I learnt to mediatate via TM and stayed with that for a few years and later on became interested in Buddhism. I liked the approach: 'try it, test it, if it feels good, continue' - a personal empirical approach with common-sense. If it was all about gimmics, like flying do you really think I would have 'stuck it out' for so long?

Anyway please let's not get mixed up between TM which is a money making scam and a 2400 year old philosophical tradition. I also to not think TM = Hinduism in its strictest sense either.

[seren]

Yes, the linking of supposed levitation with buddhism irked me somewhat. TM certainly isn't buddhist, it's barely anything at all really.

OK, here's my confession. I once had an enlightenment moment, unwittingly using a technique very similar to the zen koan, or unanswerable question. I don't know if contemplating an unanswerable question counts as meditation, but it certainly was nothing to do with relaxation! I was extremely upset at the time! Some buddhists call this kind of enlightenment-through-trauma false enlightenment, which I find interesting- firstly that they recognise that these things happen, secondly that they dismiss it like that. I guess if you've dedicated years of practice to the art of Vipassana you don't want to hear that someone short-cut their way to understanding the universe by being upset that their cat died.

I tried for some time to replicate the experience with the more usual sitting down and concentrating on your breathing type meditation, but I just don't have the patience or discipline for that.

At the risk of sounding like a right old woo, I know what I experienced. I waver between putting it all down to brain processes designed to comfort and "get you through" tough times (or possibly just going a bit squewy), and wondering whether there mightn't be some kind of genuine insight in there somewhere, whatever that might mean.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Normally, Vipassana meditation is done by going on a Vipassana retreat for about ten days.

There is a good video about this called 'Doing Time, Doing Vipassana' that I watched about 3 years ago now. It is about the use of Vipassana in the Indian prisons that were extremely overcrowded and filled with violence. After the meditations and violence levels dropped as the inmates became calmer. The staff did the retreats too and at the end they built a massive tent and all staff and inmates did the Vipassana meditation together.

There is also the book called The Art of Living Vipassana Meditation by S N Goenka who founded it.

[seren]

I think you're thinking of the Vipassana movement, which is a new idea really and does indeed have ten day courses. The prison thing was relatively recent too I think- within the last twenty years? In my experience it's just as common to go to a weekly Vipassana session, for 2 or so hours rather than the brain-drain ten days.

Vipassana itself is just a technique used in (mainly) Theravada Buddhism by monks (and nuns), and basically means sitting still and being aware of yourself. It was the sangha I was thinking of- if you've dedicated your life to such a practice, someone else's quick-fix enlightenment would piss you off no end. I don't think it's the modern Vipassana movement that chides people for false enlightenment, but the old school sangha in Thailand etc.

[SimonC]

Apologies if I came across as dismissive of, or disparaging towards, Buddhism in general. I actually find the philosophy very interesting and, as I said, I do sometimes use meditation myself.

Without wishing to generalise, some Buddhists do make exaggerated claims for meditation, including levitation. Here's a podcast which illustrates the point -

http://www.buddhanet.net/mp3/buddhism-science.mp3

I'm absolutely sure that this guy is the exception, rather than the rule. And, to be fair, he does sound like 'a bit of a character'!

[seren]

Is that a euphemism for "screaming nutjob"? :smiley:


Didn't listen to it all the way through, I'm afraid. The guy's voice was just too dull, like Michael Palin's accountant wanting to be a lion tamer. Zzzzzz....

[SimonC]

Is that a euphemism for "screaming nutjob"? :smiley:




Yeah, but a nutjob screaming very, very quietly - shhhhhhhh! :-X People are trying to meditate... ;D

[ZERO]

What springs to my mind is those Buddhist monks who immolated themselves as a form of protest during the Vietnam era.
They sat still until death, unaffected, it seems, by what must have been very painful.

Meditation, or perhaps some narcotics beforehand?

[SimonC]

What springs to my mind is those Buddhist monks who immolated themselves as a form of protest during the Vietnam era.
They sat still until death, unaffected, it seems, by what must have been very painful.

Meditation, or perhaps some narcotics beforehand?

That was a point that occured to me also, and I found myself wondering whether they ingested any kind of narcotic/anesthetic prior to their self-immolation.

There's a small amount of information on wikipedia -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

[VoodooJoe]

I dont see why meditation shouldnt have a physiological effect, as you are taking time to sit down and conciously making an effort to slow your breathing, loosen muscles etc, we know chronic stress is very bad for us so to make an effort to elleviate it can only be a good thing, right?

I know minor operations can be performed without anaesthetic under hypnosis (which as far as i can tell is just deep relaxation) so i dont think the analegesic effects of meditation (which is also a form of relaxation) should be wholly dismissed.

[augur]

Meditation is great, even if only for the physiological effects such as deep relaxation. Obviously be wary of claims of levitation etc. as SimonC says! For example the 'sitting floating with a cane' feat is done using a strong pole which is embedded into the ground and which runs up the trickster's sleeve and under his clothes to provide a seating platform, while he 'holds it in his hand' (appearing to onlookers to be floating, balancing on the cane).

I've had a few pleasing moments during moderately long meditation periods (several hours), usually a feeling of very complete 'harmony' or peace (this sounds very cliche I suppose, but it's the best way I can think to describe it! Still feels like an incomplete description). Whether this is anything spiritual or purely physical/psychological I couldn't say, but it's very nice :)