How does one talk to the emotionally involved about CAM, and should one even try?

[DrS]

I ran into a problem recently when talking about alternative medicine with someone. Unfortunately, I was unaware that the person's sister has cancer, and the doctors have said there is nothing more they can do. This sister is 35 years old, with two small children. The person I was talking to is a passionate advocate of CAM, hence our conversation in the first place, and she said that she had only now managed to get her sister to try alternatives because she had previously put all her faith in conventional medicine ... which "as expected" had let her down. She ended up getting very angry because she said I was attacking all her hope and she had to cling on to her belief that her preferred treatments would work for her sister as they had always worked for her.

In this particular situation, it seems to me that the only thing to do is withdraw from the conversation, which I did. But how shouold one deal with such situations? Is there any way of putting one's argument across when faced with an emotional storm?

Mods, I'm sure there was a thread on this sort of issue, but I can't find it at the moment. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.

[bindeweede]

I ran into a problem recently when talking about alternative medicine with someone. Unfortunately, I was unaware that the person's sister has cancer, and the doctors have said there is nothing more they can do. This sister is 35 years old, with two small children. The person I was talking to is a passionate advocate of CAM, hence our conversation in the first place, and she said that she had only now managed to get her sister to try alternatives because she had previously put all her faith in conventional medicine ... which "as expected" had let her down. She ended up getting very angry because she said I was attacking all her hope and she had to cling on to her belief that her preferred treatments would work for her sister as they had always worked for her.

In this particular situation, it seems to me that the only thing to do is withdraw from the conversation, which I did. But how shouold one deal with such situations? Is there any way of putting one's argument across when faced with an emotional storm?

Mods, I'm sure there was a thread on this sort of issue, but I can't find it at the moment. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.

DrS,

Would it be this one?

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1859

[DrS]

Yes, thankyou bindeweede! I'm more than happy if you feel it is better to merge my question with it.

I'm finding I have upset someone and feel upset myself at that, and at the fact that I can no longer discuss something that I was interested in, but it doesn't deserve a thread of its own!

[bindeweede]

Yes, thankyou bindeweede! I'm more than happy if you feel it is better to merge my question with it.

I'm finding I have upset someone and feel upset myself at that, and at the fact that I can no longer discuss something that I was interested in, but it doesn't deserve a thread of its own!

DrS

Some might disagree, but I feel your new CAM thread is fine here. The other thread was about Psychics, although the issue you raise is the same.

I'd be surprised if other people have not found themselves in your position.

[DrS]

Thanks bindeweede. I'd really appreciate others' opinions on this because I'm now in a situation where conversation is stifled. Another member of the group has said that respect for opinions has to go both ways, and clearly my opinion isn't being respected, but I don't see how to proceed without looking completely heartless.

[Matt]

Well firstly I think withdrawing from the conversation at the time was the right move. You stepped into an emotional minefield. Logic and reason don't apply here.

It's important not to appear to be attacking the source of their hope. Not because it doesn't deserve to be attacked for exploiting false hope but because it won't get you anywhere.

A few thoughts.

The C stands for complementary, at the very least conventional medicine can provide palliative care. Emphasise that her sister can use both. It seems like your friend has a particularly sour view of modern medicine. Emphasize its sucesses, eradication of smallpox and near eradication of childhood diseases. The germ theroy of disease alone and its implications to modern hygene standards is repsonsible for a large part of the radical leap in life expectancies over the last century. If you can, give personal examples, a century ago my fiance's ectopic pregnacy would likely have killed her.

Also, you can point out that you don't believe that all complementary practicioners are frauds. Natropathic remedies can indeed be effective - after all what all that medical marijuana fuss about if not a banned natropathic remedy. Alternative practicioners are also far less put upon than the modern NHS staff. They can spend more time building a relationship with their clients. The client who trusts their practicioner may reveal more about their symptoms allowing for a more thorough diagnoses. SOme alternative practioners do have conventional medical training alongside their alt-med beliefs. Even just the counselling aspect can be useful.

However, and here you have to be very tactful, it's certainly true that in a unregulated field there have been definite cases of charletans preying upon desperate and vulnerable people.

The failsafes that are present in conventional medicine to try to catch such people are simply not present in fields wheer a half day course and a few hundred quid buy you a certificate. Con artists are drawn to the less regualted fields.

Thus you have allowed the possibility for hope whilst introducing the very real concern that her sister may be being exploited.

Here you guide her using concerned non judgmental questions stemming from your desire to understand...

What form of Alternative treatment is she engaging in? Who is the practitioner? What qualifications do they have - are any of them medically recognised qualifications? Wouldn't you rather have massage thereaphy from a State Registered Nurse than a housewife who's read a few books and paid for a certificate. How much is she paying? Why is this not available on the NHS? Have clinical trials been done on this procedure? etc...

I wish you luck.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I personally think you probably should withdraw from that particular conversation. It's a no win situation in my opinion. The only caveat I would add to that is that if they were determined to persue some alternative therapy which would adversely affect the quality of life for the remaining time that person has alive, or would adversely affect the survivors, then I would offer advice.

In the first instance it is comparable to chemotherapy where many people will stop this treatment when there really is nothing further that can be done. What is the point of persuing an alternative treatment which will lead to degradation in the quality of life when there is really nothing that can be done.

Secondly, if they were spending large amounts of money on alternative treatments, I would also consider that worth mentioning. If there is a family being left behind to support, then it is not great that money is being wasted on alternative therapy that isn't going to work.

This is a pretty cold way of looking at things I guess, but life really does go on for those left behind.

[DrS]

Matt, that is so helpful, thankyou very much. For what it's worth, I've cut and pasted below the relevant section of what she said about the treatment she is now getting for her sister. If anyone knows anything about this person or treatment I'd appreciate the info. I've already said (before I realized what an emotional minefield I was in) that this isn't what cancer is, or how it operates .... :-[


alas, she trusted her doc 100%, to cut a long story short, everything has been tried and has not worked................. only now have I managed to convince her to try alternatives but I actually think its too late.

On Thursday she has an appointment with DR ETIENNE CALLEBOUT on Harley Street, very expensive but hopefully he may be able to help.

He works on the process of getting rid of all chemicals from the body as if cancer cannot hold onto anything in the body then it cannot survive............

another lady we tried was ALEXANDRINAS STUBBS and she was pretty wonderful but we have decided to try DR CALLEBOUT as time is now running out.

EDIT> Thanks too, Farside.

[Cuddles]

I have two questions that I think make a big difference. Firstly, is this person actually a close friend or family, or just someone you happened to be having a conversation with? If the former, continuing to argue can easily result in the loss of friendship and probably isn't such a good idea. If that latter, it doesn't matter so much what they end up thinking of you, so you can make more of an effort to argue with them.

Secondly, I notice you say she was annoyed that you were spoiling her hope, not her sister's. My answer to that is quite simply "Screw her". She isn't the one that's ill. How selfish is she if she considers it perfectly OK to defraud her sister just so she can feel a bit better about herself? If she complained about her sister's hope, that would be different, although I am still opposed to lying to people just to make them feel better. No doubt she doesn't see it that way, but she is actually saying that she is willing to hurt someone close to her just so that she can cling to beliefs that she knows are wrong. This type of thinking is disturbingly common among believers in various things, and they rarely see it this way, but if you think through what they actually say, that's what it boils down to. It's much like the "Secret" crap, where people go on about love and light, but when you actually think it through, they're saying that everything bad that happens is entirely your own choice.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Secondly, I notice you say she was annoyed that you were spoiling her hope, not her sister's. My answer to that is quite simply "Screw her". She isn't the one that's ill. How selfish is she if she considers it perfectly OK to defraud her sister just so she can feel a bit better about herself? If she complained about her sister's hope, that would be different, although I am still opposed to lying to people just to make them feel better. No doubt she doesn't see it that way, but she is actually saying that she is willing to hurt someone close to her just so that she can cling to beliefs that she knows are wrong. This type of thinking is disturbingly common among believers in various things, and they rarely see it this way, but if you think through what they actually say, that's what it boils down to. It's much like the "Secret" crap, where people go on about love and light, but when you actually think it through, they're saying that everything bad that happens is entirely your own choice.

One way of looking at this is that the sister who is dying will be dead and her suffering ended at that point. The one who is still living will have a long period of severe suffering and grief. I think it is natural that she is confused about her best intentions. I watched my mother suffer badly when my father died with cancer 10 years ago, it is natural for the surviving close relatives to also go through an enormous amount of pain and try to alleviate their own suffering.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

First result on Google:

http://www.canceractive.com/page.php?n=378

It's quite easy to see why this type of doctor is sought after. You only need to read the last paragrapgh:



If you are looking for a doctor with a fantastic filing system, a team of secretaries who immediately return your calls, who provides neat word-processed prescriptions, then Dr Callebout is not your man. On the other hand, if you are looking for someone with enormous eclectic experience who will treat you as an individual and not a "cancer patient", this unconventional Belgian might be just the ticket.


From second link on Google:

http://www.cancure.org/dr_callebout.htm




Etienne Callebout, M.D. in London, England uses numerous herbs, nutritional supplements, enzymes, and substances uniquely tailed to fight cancer, along with a detoxification regime, an overhaul of the patient's diet, and psychological healing strategies. He alternates protocols so that the malignancy gets hit from different angles at different times. He may use 714X, aloe vera, amygdalin (laetrile), bovine cartilage, dmso, Wobe-Mugos and other enzymes, glandulars, green tea, Iscador, flaxseed oil, Maitake, vaccines, shark cartilage, and other homeopathic and herbal remedies.


The mention of homeopathy in there should be enough to sound the alarm bells.

[DrS]

But it would ring bells that sound extremely familiar and in tune with the beliefs of the person I was talking to. Cuddles, no she's not a friend, but a member, whom I have not met, of another forum. I still don't want to hurt her feelings though, and would have liked to continue the discussion, but the thread in question has now been virtually derailed. The problem is that such a discussion is probably out of place there anyway, given that it's a place-related forum with a distressingly low percentage of members used to rigorous rational discussion ...

Farside, thanks for that information.

[Matt]

Its encouraging to see that he's an MD, i.e. more of a Doctor than Gillain McKeith. It's no guarentee of competant treatment but it increases the odds that he might notice an opportunity of conventional evidence based medicine that the NHS specialist have missed. The web seems to suggest that he's happy to work alongside orthodox medicine so there's hopefully lass chance of him promoting anti scientific counter knowledge - e.g. vacinations are mind control agents.

Diet and Natropathy might well affect cancer without requiring a change in the laws of nature.

Getting rid of all chemicals - all toxins? "Cancer has nothing to hold onto. That's clap trap and we know it." Question is whether it Dr Callebout's claptrap or your friend's missunderstanding of his techniques explained in simple laymans terms.

Questions to ask then. What success have his methods demonstrated, just anecdotes or clinical trials. I see on the web an execise in reducing expectations: Many of his patients come to him as a last resort and he can't do much for them.

Also it looks like he's very expensive. How much does dietrary advice and a coffee enema cost?

Why is he so expensive - why are similar treatments not available on the NHS - even experimentally? Is it because there's no evidence of efficacy?

[Blue Wode]

The C stands for complementary, at the very least conventional medicine can provide palliative care. Emphasise that her sister can use both.

Good advice. The doctors/scientists who wrote to the NHS Trusts back in May 2006 highlighted that point as well:


We are sensitive to the needs of patients for complementary care to enhance well-being and for spiritual support to deal with the fear of death at a time of critical illness, all of which can be supported through services already available within the NHS without resorting to false claims.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-2191985,00.html (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-2191985,00.html)

[DrS]

Thanks all. :smiley:

I suppose the main problem is that conventional medicine appears to have come to the end of the road, so there's little point, probably, in suggesting side-be-side treatment. And the alternative treatment is unlikely to cause any irreparable harm given the prognosis anyway, so at least the one-to-one treatment might make her sister feel she's being "cared for". Ultimately, though, I suspect it's the surviving sister who will benefit more from it, but I can already see the argument coming that if her sister had approached this doctor earlier, instead of putting "undue faith" in conventional medicine, she might still be alive ... :sad:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Questions to ask then. What success have his methods demonstrated, just anecdotes or clinical trials. I see on the web an execise in reducing expectations: Many of his patients come to him as a last resort and he can't do much for them.

This is another great point (by Matt). It really allows the practitioner a get out from any claims about effectiveness. Maybe it also allows them to feel slightly less guilty for the amount they charge, because the person is going to die anyway.

Obviously as mentioned above as well, there is an association between quality and cost. Sitting in an expensively furnished office and paying large amounts of money for a treatment does create the illusion that it is worth it.

[Mongrel]

I suppose the main problem is that conventional medicine appears to have come to the end of the road, so there's little point, probably, in suggesting side-be-side treatment. And the alternative treatment is unlikely to cause any irreparable harm given the prognosis anyway,

You have to be careful there.
Whilst conventional treatment may not be up to a cure it's still used for palliative care and keeping the persons life quality as high as possible. The other factor is the persons relations with friends and families, running around expensive clinics on false hope and stress.

I think Orac has a couple of real life examples, I'll have a look through his archive later

[Matt]

Treatments that Dr Callebout may offer accourding to http://www.cancure.org/dr_callebout.htm

714X (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/714x.html),


In 1985, two researchers at Ontario Veterinary College concluded that 714X was ineffective against lymphomas in dogs and cows [5]. The Canadian Health Fraud Branch regards 714X as "an unproven product for which evidence to support treatment claims is lacking." [6] No clinical trial has ever been reported, and no peer-reviewed scientific journal has published data showing that 714X is effective against any health problem. In 1998, the Task Force on Alternative Therapies of the Canadian Breast Cancer Research Initiative concluded that "Naessens's theories about the underlying causes and mechanisms of cancer are clearly not consistent with current scientific opinion."



aloe vera (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/714x.html),


Aloe products for internal use have been promoted for constipation, coughs, wounds, ulcers, diabetes, cancer, headaches, arthritis, immune-system deficiencies, and many other conditions. However, the only substantiated internal use is as a laxative

amygdalin (laetrile) (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html)


It was tried as an anticancer agent in Germany in 1892, but was discarded as ineffective and too toxic for that purpose. During the early 1950s, Ernst T. Krebs, Sr., M.D., and his son Ernst, Jr., began using a "purified" form of amygdalin to treat cancer patients. Since that time scientists have tested substances called "Laetrile" in more than 20 animal tumor models as well as in humans and found no benefit either alone or together with other substances.

bovine cartilage (http://skepdic.com/shark.html)


Dr. Lane got his inspiration from the work of real scientists who injected bovine and shark cartilage into the bloodstreams of rabbits and mice with cancer. The stuff greatly inhibited angiogenesis, the growth of blood vessels which supply nutrients to the cancerous cells. However, not all cancers rely on angiogenesis. Most researchers doubt that cartilage taken orally will result in significant quantities making it to the site of a tumor. They believe that it is a protein in cartilage that affects angiogenesis and that the protein would be digested rather than absorbed into the bloodstream where it might find its way to a tumor.

dmso (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/OTA/ota05.html#DMSO)


Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a commonly available product with a wide variety of non-medical uses. In industry, it has been used as a chemical solvent. In laboratory research, it is often used as a cryopreservative for cultured cells. One of the properties of DMSO is that it is absorbed very rapidly through the skin and cell membranes, carrying along almost anything else (particularly low molecular weight molecules) dissolved in it that would not otherwise be able to cross those barriers. Intravenous and oral administration of DMSO allow it to penetrate rapidly into vascular and non- vascular tissues in the body (854). Its popular use among athletes, people with arthritis, and others have stemmed from claims that topical DMSO reduces pain, decreases swelling, and promotes healing of injured tissue. The FDA approved the use of bladder instillations of a 50% solution of DMSO (sold under the trade name "Rimso-50") to relieve symptoms of interstitial cystitis, a painful chronic bladder disorder (884). At present, "Rimso-50" is still the only DMSO product approved by FDA for use in humans. DMSO available in health food stores or by mail order is an industrial form of the chemical, consisting of about 99% DMSO, and is not labeled for human use (45).

Wobe-Mugos and other enzymes..

Limited information...

glandulars (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/cellular.html)


The theory behind cellular therapy is senseless. The American Cancer Society has strongly advised people not to seek it [8]. Under ordinary circumstances, cells from the organs of one species cannot replace the cells from the organs of other species. When foreign proteins are injected, the immune system attacks them. In addition, injections of animal cells can spread viral disease and trigger severe allergic reactions. When taken by mouth, animal cells are digested and are not absorbed intact into the body.

green tea (http://www.quackwatch.com/02ConsumerProtection/FDAActions/global.html)


Green tea may have some value as a preventive

Iscador (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/OTA/ota04.html)

Summary: Perparation of Misletoe with different metals added depending on the site of the cancer being treated. Causes nasty reactions with benefits unproven despite a century of use..

flaxseed oil (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/ff.html),



Flaxseed. Among the major seed oils, flaxseed oil contains the most (57%) of the omega-3 fatty acid, a-linolenic acid. Recent research, however, has focused more specifically on fiber-associated compounds known as lignans. The two primary mammalian lignans, enterodiol and its oxidation product, enterolactone, are formed in the intestinal tract by bacterial action on plant lignan precursors (Setchell et al., 1981). Flaxseed is the richest source of mammalian lignan precursors (Thompson et al., 1991). Because enterodiol and enterolactone are structurally similar to both naturally-occurring and synthetic estrogens, and have been shown to possess weakly estrogenic and antiestrogenic activities, they may play a role in the prevention of estrogen-dependent cancers. However, there are no epidemiological data and relatively few animal studies to support this hypothesis. In rodents, flaxseed has been shown to decrease tumors of the colon and mammary gland (Thompson, 1995) as well as of the lung (Yan et al., 1998).
Fewer studies have evaluated the effects of flaxseed feeding on risk markers for cancer in humans. Phipps et al. (1993) demonstrated that the ingestion of 10 g of flaxseed per day elicited several hormonal changes associated with reduced breast cancer risk. Adlercreutz et al. (1982) found that the urinary lignan excretion was significantly lower in postmenopausal breast cancer patients compared to controls eating a normal mixed or a lactovegetarian diet.
Consumption of flaxseed has also been shown to reduce total and LDL cholesterol (Bierenbaum et al., 1993; Cunnane et al., 1993), as well as platelet aggregation (Allman et al., 1995).


Maitake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitake)



The active constituent in maitake for enhancing the immune actively has been identified in the late 1980s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s) to be the protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein)-bound polysaccharide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysaccharide) compound, beta-glucan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-glucan), an ingredient found especially in the family of polyporaceae.


Vaccines

From Brief ersearch quite possibly refers to valid experimental therapy (http://www.mpip.org/therapy/gt.html)

Shark cartilage (http://skepdic.com/shark.html)

As Bovine Cartilage Above.



Well I'm not a Doctor of course so my word is far from Gospel on any of this but my impression is that Dr Callebout offers amixed bag of cancer treatments including just about anything that's ever been tried - whether there's good evidence it works or not. Much of it appears to be proven ineffective but mixed in there are a few experimental treatments and nutritional supplements that have demonstrated possible preventative benfits. It's not unreasonable that something that may help prevent cancer should eb tested as an aid to treatment.

Far from purging the body of chemicals he seems quite willing to use some ratehr nasty toxic stuff. A strange paradox.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Well I'm not a Doctor of course so my word is far from Gospel on any of this but my impression is that Dr Callebout offers amixed bag of cancer treatments including just about anything that's ever been tried - whether there's good evidence it works or not. Much of it appears to be proven ineffective but mixed in there are a few experimental treatments and nutritional supplements that have demonstrated possible preventative benfits. It's not unreasonable that something that may help prevent cancer should eb tested as an aid to treatment.

I wonder if the value he adds for his exorbitant fees is that he decides which of the various treatments he has available should be prescribed. Rather like a pizza topping menu. You could most of those supplements at Holland and Barratt I expect.

[DrS]

You lot are gems. Thankyou. :smiley:

[Ramontheskeptic]

I wonder if the value he adds for his exorbitant fees is that he decides which of the various treatments he has available should be prescribed. Rather like a pizza topping menu. You could most of those supplements at Holland and Barratt I expect.

The cost adds another dimension: guilt. The family rarely want to quibble about cost when it is their fears and hopes that are on the line and they have no where else to turn. Only an outsider can give wise counsel, but drawing attention to the obvious flaws can put them on the defensive.

It is also true that there is little that we can put in the place of the hope we may destroy - somehow suggesting they make plans for a dignified end can only be taken as cruelly rational. As is trying to force the family to see how vulnerable they are to quacks.

Probably the best one can do is to be there for them - be willing to do the work of helping to read up on various topics and discuss them openly.

[exile]

Skeptic as I am, if I am told by the conventional medicine man that I have a terminal disease and have no hope, I will be trotting down to the nearest homeopath. Just in case!

The danger is, of course, when there is a proven conventional therapy and the patient rejects it in favour of some variety of quackery.

[Sarama]

I think at one time or another many if not all of us have been in a similar situation Dr. S and it appears it is not getting any easier.
Coming in late as usual to this conversation but being very appreciative that someone has brought it up, I just want to say that I really appreciate the balanced views and sound suggestions of Matt, FarSide et all.

I have witnessed only one case worthy of recognition where complimentary medicine worked proficiently alongside mainstream orthodox methods, and that was the case of a TCM Physician working closely alongside a cancer care specialist simply to help alleviate the side-effects of the several rounds of chemotherapy the patient had to endure. The reason the patient sought out complimentary methods in the first place was because she had already been through the often traumatising trials and tribulations of cancer treatment once before only to have another new & improved version of cancer show up elsewhere in her body. During her first ordeal she lost all of her hair, experienced nausea 24/7 and always felt worse for wear immediately after treatment which would last several days if not weeks. She claimed that by alternating between her chemo and acupuncture treatments she was able to function without the usual fatigue, nausea, and myriad of other side effects she had experienced previously. She also kept all of her hair.

I really do not know all the factors involved, change of diet, lifestyle, tolerance, change of prescriptions, different cancer, but I did witness her tackle not one but three different forms of cancer over the period of 5 years and the difference between the first, second and third occurrences just in her energy levels and vitality was fairly impressive.

Both MD and TCM practitioner seemed to work well together and displayed a mutual respect for another given that they frequently shared and compared notes.

I think the most important thing to ask yourself when talking with anyone about such an emotionally charged situation is are they receptive? Can they be receptive? It's hard to know that until you let slip your opinion of course, so try not to feel too bad about how things went for you in the other forum. There's often a lot of anger in grief, and I think it's safe to say that it has nothing to do with you what so ever. At this point in time the other person is just not in a position to debate or consider differing points of view.

[DrS]

Quite right, and thankyou ... though the specific problem was that it was a thread about CAM into which this person brought her own circumstances.

As it happens, the whole thread has died a death, as I expected it would. Apart from sympathising deeply with her predicament, and that of her sister's of course, I was saddened, but not surprised, that it was impossible to have a rational discussion about something without feeling emotionally blackmailed. :'(

[Cuddles]

I have witnessed only one case worthy of recognition where complimentary medicine worked proficiently alongside mainstream orthodox methods, and that was the case of a TCM Physician working closely alongside a cancer care specialist simply to help alleviate the side-effects of the several rounds of chemotherapy the patient had to endure.

This is one of the big problems with the "alternative" health nonsense. The thing is, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. However, there is such a thing as complimentary medicine, and the two should not be grouped together, even though they are often refered to as CAM. The usual complaint about alternative medicine is that all it does is bring in the placebo effect and make people feel better by spending time with them. If you're claiming to actually heal people by doing this, that is fraud. If all you're claiming is to make them feel a bit better while they have real treatment, that's really not a problem.

There are only really two problems with complimentary medicine. The first is that there are an awful lot of woo claims made as well, and the whole thing kind of blurs into alternative medicine. There needs to be a lot more separation between "This will make you better" and "This might make you feel a bit better". The other problem is that, like most woo, they are generally strongly opposed to any actual testing. Complimentary medicine still has a long way to go, but it isn't something that should be opposed on general principles, unlike alternative medicine which can't help at all.

[Sarama]

Agreed Cuddles!

[bindeweede]

A sad story, an interesting question, and an interesting answer.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4089