The Ritalin Timebomb has gone off!

[spec]

Well, it's finally happening.

Kids all over the country are reaching adulthood, and running riot.

There has been a great deal of uproar over the disrespect and anti-social behaviour, that is prevalent in U. K. society. Surprise, surprise.

It's little wonder kids are mad with most of them drugged up before they even reach puberty, with amphetamine based drugs like Ritalin.

Amphetamines cause a huge increase in adrenaline, leading to aggressive and psychotic behaviour, What are the doctors thinking about!

When I was at school such drugs were never heard of. These drugs are supposed to be prescribed for kids with behavoural problems, to make them more managable.

It comes down to one simple thing: Lack of Discipline.

Parents should give them a good slap and teach them right from wrong, then they will tow the line.

Congratulations, to the British Medical Society for creating a generation of lunatics.

[Mojo]

It's little wonder kids are mad with most of them drugged up before they even reach puberty


Evidence?

[Cuddles]

When I was at school such drugs were never heard of.

When were you in school?

[SimonC]

It's little wonder kids are mad with most of them drugged up before they even reach puberty, with amphetamine based drugs like Ritalin.


Most of them? Is it true that more than fifty percent of children are prescribed Ritalin, or similar medication? It seems highly improbable to me, but I stand open to correction.

[mahakala]

Ah gee, there were only 46,000 prescriptions for Ritalin dolled out to children in Scotland last year, according to the BBC.

When I was in school Ritalin was the street drug of choice when Metamphetamine was unavailable.

Of course the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession can do no wrong, according to you guys.

Interesting choice of where to put your scepticism.

How many prescriptions will you need before you recognize a problem?

[bindeweede]

This is the information from NICE.

http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/index.jsp?action=article&o=32110

Perhaps a more balanced response.

There is also this.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100002286.html

[bindeweede]

Also this.


Methylphenidate is a medication prescribed for individuals (usually children) who have attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), which consists of a persistent pattern of abnormally high levels of activity, impulsivity, and/or inattention that is more frequently displayed and more severe than is typically observed in individuals with comparable levels of development. The pattern of behavior usually arises between the ages of 3 and 5, and is diagnosed during the elementary school years due to the child’s excessive locomotor activity, poor attention, and/or impulsive behavior. Most symptoms improve during adolescence or adulthood, but the disorder can persist or present in adults. It has been estimated that 3–7 percent of school-age children have ADHD. Methylphenidate also is occasionally prescribed for treating narcolepsy.

Health Effects

Methylphenidate is a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant. It has effects similar to, but more potent than, caffeine and less potent than amphetamines. It has a notably calming and “focusing” effect on those with ADHD, particularly children.

Recent research at Brookhaven National Laboratory may begin to explain how methylphenidate helps people with ADHD. The researchers used positron emission tomography (PET—a noninvasive brain scan) to confirm that administering normal therapeutic doses of methylphenidate to healthy, adult men increased their dopamine levels. The researchers speculate that methylphenidate amplifies the release of dopamine, a neurotransmitter, thereby improving attention and focus in individuals who have dopamine signals that are weak.1

Methylphenidate can be a valuable medicine, for adults as well as children with ADHD.2,3,4 Treatment of ADHD with stimulants such as Ritalin and psychotherapy help to improve the abnormal behaviors of ADHD, as well as the self-esteem, cognition, and social and family function of the patient.2 Research shows that individuals with ADHD do not become addicted to stimulant medications when taken in the form and dosage prescribed by doctors. In fact, it has been reported that stimulant therapy in childhood is associated with a reduction in the risk for subsequent drug and alcohol abuse disorders.5,6 Also, studies have found that individuals with ADHD who have been treated with stimulants such as methylphenidate are significantly less likely than those who do not receive treatment to abuse drugs and alcohol when they are older.7

Because of its stimulant properties, however, in recent years there have been reports of methylphenidate abuse by people for whom it is not prescribed. It is abused for its stimulant effects: appetite suppression, wakefulness, increased focus/attentiveness, and euphoria. Addiction to methylphenidate seems to occur when it induces rapid increases of dopamine in the brain. In contrast, the therapeutic effect is achieved by slow and steady increases of dopamine, which are similar to the natural production by the brain. The doses prescribed by physicians start low and increase slowly until a therapeutic effect is reached. That way, the risk of addiction is very small.8

When abused, the tablets are either taken orally or crushed and snorted. Some abusers dissolve the tablets in water and inject the mixture; complications can arise from this because insoluble fillers in the tablets can block small blood vessels.

Trends in Ritalin Use

Monitoring the Future (MTF) Survey *
Each year, MTF assesses the extent of drug use among adolescents and young adults nationwide. MTF 2005 data on annual** use indicate that 2.4 percent of 8th-graders used Ritalin, as did 3.4 percent of 10th-graders and 4.4 percent of 12th-graders.

National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH)***
According to the 2004 NSDUH, there was a decline in lifetime use among those aged 12 to 17, from 2.2 percent in 2003 to 1.8 percent in 2004.

Other Studies

ADHD has been more frequently reported in boys than in girls; however, research published in 2002 noted that the frequency among girls had greatly increased.9

A large survey at a public university showed that 3 percent of the students had used methylphenidate during the past year.10
Other Information Sources

Because stimulant medicines such as methylphenidate do have potential for abuse, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) has placed stringent, Schedule II controls on their manufacture, distribution, and prescription. For example, DEA requires special licenses for these activities, and prescription refills are not allowed. The DEA Web site is www.usdoj.gov/dea/ (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/). States may impose further regulations, such as limiting the number of dosage units per prescription.

Treatment

For more information on treating ADHD, visit the Web site for the National Institute of Mental Health, National Institutes of Health, at www.nimh.nih.gov (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/).



* * These data are from the 2005 Monitoring the Future survey, funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health, DHHS, and conducted annually by the University of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research. The survey has tracked 12th-graders’ illicit drug use and related attitudes since 1975; in 1991, 8th- and 10th-graders were added to the study. The latest data are online at www.drugabuse.gov (http://www.drugabuse.gov/).

* "Lifetime" refers to use at least once during a respondent's lifetime. "Annual" refers to use at least once during the year preceding an individual's response to the survey. "30-day" refers to use at least once during the 30 days preceding an individual's response to the survey.

*** NSDUH (formerly known as the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse) is an annual survey of Americans age 12 and older conducted by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. Copies of the latest survey are available at www.samhsa.gov (http://www.samhsa.gov) and from the National Clearinghouse for Alcohol and Drug Information at 800-729-6686.



1 Volkow, N.D., Fowler, J.S., Wang, G., Ding, Y., and Gatley, S.J. (2002). Mechanism of action of methylphenidate: insights from PET imaging studies. J. Atten. Disord., 6 Suppl. 1, S31–S43.

2 Konrad, K., Gunther, T., Hanisch, C., and Herpertz-Dahlmann, B. (2004). Differential Effects of Methylphenidate on Attentional Functions in Children With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. J. Am. Acad. Child Adolesc. Psychiatry, 43, 191–198.

3 Faraone, S.V., Spencer, T., Aleardi, M., Pagano, C., and Biederman, J. (2004). Meta-analysis of the efficacy of methylphenidate for treating adult attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. J. Clin. Psychopharmacology, 24, 24–29.

4 Kutcher, S., Aman, M., Brooks, S.J., Buitelaar, J., van Daalen, E., Fegert, J., et al. (2004). International consensus statement on attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and disruptive behaviour disorders (DBDs): Clinical implications and treatment practice suggestions. Eur. Neuropsychopharmacol., 14, 11–28.

5 Biederman, J. (2003). Pharmacotherapy for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) decreases the risk for substance abuse: findings from a longitudinal follow-up of youths with and without ADHD. J. Clin. Psychiatry, 64 Suppl. 11, 3–8.

6 Wilens, T.E., Faraone, S.V., Biederman, J., and Gunawardene, S. (2003). Does stimulant therapy of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder beget later substance abuse? A meta-analytic review of the literature. Pediatrics, 111, 179–185.

7 Mannuzza, S., Klein, R.G., and Moulton, J.L., III (2003). Does stimulant treatment place children at risk for adult substance abuse? A controlled, prospective follow-up study. J. Child Adolesc. Psychopharmacol., 13, 273–282.

8 Volkow, N.D. and Swanson, J.M. (2003). Variables that affect the clinical use and abuse of methylphenidate in the treatment of ADHD. Am. J. Psychiatry, 160, 1909–1918.

9 Robison, L.M., Skaer, T.L., Sclar, D.A., and Galin, R.S. (2002). Is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder increasing among girls in the US? Trends in diagnosis and the prescribing of stimulants. CNS Drugs, 16, 129–137.

10 Teter, C.J., McCabe, S.E., Boyd, C.J., and Guthrie, S.K. (2003). Illicit methylphenidate use in an undergraduate student sample: prevalence and risk factors. Pharmacotherapy, 23, 609–617.

Revised 4/06

Source. http://www.drugabuse.gov/Infofacts/ritalin.html

Bolding is mine.

[SimonC]

When I was in school Ritalin was the street drug of choice when Metamphetamine was unavailable.



Slightly O/T, but I wonder why homeopathic 'medicines' are never abused as street drugs. Considering their huge efficacy and everything, you'd think the hoodies would be onto them like a shot...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Of course the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession can do no wrong, according to you guys.


Wrong. You won't find anyone who believes that the pharmaceutical industry is whiter than white. People put their faith in the testing and regulation which is enforced on it, compared to the lack of testing and regulation enforced on alternative medicine industries.

Isn't your position that you think the medical profession can do no right?

[Mongrel]

When I was in school Ritalin was the street drug of choice when Metamphetamine was unavailable.

Of course the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession can do no wrong, according to you guys.


Because, obviously, all you see around schools are guys in suits armed with briefcases overflowing with pharmaceutical samples...

My speculation is that due to the increased awareness, diagnosis and reduced embarrassment of conditions like ADHD kids are getting the attention that's needed. Go back 20 years and they're the ones who were always in trouble and in the 'thickie' classes whose job prospects probably involved supermarkets and fast food restaurants.

Also you should think (unlikely I know) before parroting scare numbers and look how they've said it "Last year, 46,000 individual prescriptions were recorded in Scotland." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5308292.stm).
I imagine many of those were a "Try little Johnny on these for a week and see if it makes a difference", even if that's not the case Ritalin is a long term medication, 46K divided by 12 for a monthly supply gives a little over 3800 cases - not as newsworthy eh?

[mahakala]

Isn't your position that you think the medical profession can do no right?[/quote]

No. That would be your binary thinking.

[mahakala]

Because, obviously, all you see around schools are guys in suits armed with briefcases overflowing with pharmaceutical samples...

My speculation is that due to the increased awareness, diagnosis and reduced embarrassment of conditions like ADHD kids are getting the attention that's needed. Go back 20 years and they're the ones who were always in trouble and in the 'thickie' classes whose job prospects probably involved supermarkets and fast food restaurants.

Also you should think (unlikely I know) before parroting scare numbers and look how they've said it "Last year, 46,000 individual prescriptions were recorded in Scotland." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5308292.stm).
I imagine many of those were a "Try little Johnny on these for a week and see if it makes a difference", even if that's not the case Ritalin is a long term medication, 46K divided by 12 for a monthly supply gives a little over 3800 cases - not as newsworthy eh?

Keep words being I speculate and I imagine.

[seren]

Whereas you know everything for certain, right? How very lucky for you.

Well done on completely ignoring mongrel's demolishing of your figures

What, in your opinion, has the medical profession done that's right?

[siestatime]

It comes down to one simple thing: Lack of Discipline.
Parents should give them a good slap and teach them right from wrong, then they will tow the line.>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)


http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html




What does it feel like to be smacked?
'it feels like someone banged you with a hammer' (5 year old girl)
'it hurts and it's painful inside - it's like breaking your bones' (7 year old girl)
'it's like when you 're in the sky and you 're falling to the ground and you just hurt yourself' (7 year old boy)
[It feels] like someone's punched you or kicked you or something' (6 year old boy)
'[Children feel] grumpy and sad and also really upset inside' (5 year old girl)
'[It] hurts your feelings inside' (7 year old girl)
'You feel you don't like your parents anymore' (7 year old girl)
'it feels, you feel sort of as though you want to run away because they 're sort of like being mean to you and it hurts a lot' (7 year old girl)
'when you get smacked sometimes we get angry because sometimes when my mum smacks me you get angry' (6 year old boy)
'it feels like [they] shouldn't have done that, it hurts. It feels embarrassed, it feels like you are really sorry and it hurts' (7 year old girl)
'I think it probably makes you feel ashamed inside' (7 year old girl)
'it hurts people and it doesn't feel nice and people don't like it when they are smacked' (5 year old)
'[It makes you] grumpy and sad and also really upset inside. And really hurt (5 year-old girl)
'Sometimes may feel that inside like their tummy hurts' (5 year-old boy)
'You're hurt and it makes you cry [and] drips come out of your eyes' (5 year-old girl)

[spec]

Give them a slap, they don't have the intelligence to understand right from wrong if you try to explain it to them.

It comes down to this, the whole industry of childhood phychiatry is a nonsense, an american fad. It was created for parents who don't want the inconvience of looking after their kids.

Instead of the parent being in control, they would rather just dope their kids up, and pass the buck when the kid gets in trouble.

Perhaps the parents themselves are druggies, leading by example I guess.

Any parent who allows their kid to be turned into a junkie is a disgrace.
But, maybe thats their plan, to take the drugs themselves or sell them on. It wouldn't surprise me.

[Matt]

Any parent who allows their kid to be turned into a junkie is a disgrace.
But, maybe thats their plan, to take the drugs themselves or sell them on. It wouldn't surprise me.

Did you miss the bit about Ritalin making kids LESS likely to become drug addicts in later life?

[Mongrel]

But it's such a nice strawman he's got there Matt :tongue:

Anyway spec, look at it this way. If the kid calms down from being fed a stimulant then there's something very wrong with their head chemistry (simplified version)

[siestatime]

Give them a slap, they don't have the intelligence to understand right from wrong if you try to explain it to them.

I do so hope you're not a parent.

[spec]

Whether I'm a parent or not is neither here nor there. The fact remains I am entitled to an opinion like anybody else and I'm sticking to it.

Ritalin is a stimulant and therefore cannot have a calming effect.
It's insanity to think otherwise.

[Mongrel]

Ritalin is a stimulant and therefore cannot have a calming effect. It's insanity to think otherwise.

Common sense beats science? Sorry, argument from personal incredulity doesn't count for anything.

[SimonC]

Ritalin is a stimulant and therefore cannot have a calming effect. It's insanity to think otherwise.

Or, perhaps not -

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/283/5400/397

But I'm sure 'common sense' trumps those boring experiments, studies and clinical trials every time.

[SimonC]

More of that irritatingly counterintuitive science stuff -

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-4F6F673-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=420973af53f55df86381d3e2fbce9877

[spec]

Did you miss the bit about Ritalin making kids LESS likely to become drug addicts in later life?

That's nonsense, it's just a way for the medical profession to reassure the parents that there will be no long term effects of using Ritalin. To get the parents onside.

The adult world will always be dominated by the issue of drugs. People will take them regardless of whether they take them as kids or not.

The real issue is whether they will take Legal or Illegal Drugs.

[spec]

Slightly O/T, but I wonder why homeopathic 'medicines' are never abused as street drugs. Considering their huge efficacy and everything, you'd think the hoodies would be onto them like a shot...

Because the prescriptions for synthetic drugs are free to the under 16s.

Also, they don't want to spend their pocket money on herbal alternatives, they would rather buy a pill from their dodgy mate in the playground.

[Matt]

That's nonsense, it's just a way for the medical profession to reassure the parents that there will be no long term effects of using Ritalin. To get the parents onside.

The adult world will always be dominated by the issue of drugs. People will take them regardless of whether they take them as kids or not.

The real issue is whether they will take Legal or Illegal Drugs.

No it's a way for the medical proffession to find an answer to a question without influence from preconception. They do a study, they find out the answer by checking against the reality of the situation.

You on the other hand stick with your preconception despite being confronted with reality.

That is what makes you a fantasist.

Lets say I wanted to know if you were spotty 14 year old boy with no friends.

I could either check and find out.

Or assume you were.

If I was then confronted with multiple people how had checked and found out would that you were a charming housewife in real life would I still assume that their facts were wrong and my presumption was right?

Only if I was a fantasist.

SInce reality has no affect on your opinions I see no further point in discussing anything with you.

Goodbye.

[Mongrel]

The fact remains I am entitled to an opinion like anybody else and I'm sticking to it.

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts O0

So far you've crammed "My intuition beats the scientific method", conspiracy theory, and promotion of child abuse into a few posts.

Whilst I'd normally have expected a few anecdotes, I wouldn't in this case - the reason being that it's hard to deny it after having seen a human pinball turn into a quiet, attentive kid.


Because the prescriptions for synthetic drugs are free to the under 16s.

Wrong. Any items available on an NHS script is free, they don't differentiate between 'synthetic' and 'everything else'. The criteria for drug tariff items is efficacy with a consideration of cost.

[SimonC]

Also, they don't want to spend their pocket money on herbal alternatives, they would rather buy a pill from their dodgy mate in the playground.

Homeopathic does not mean 'herbal'.

[Mulder]

Despite the argument going on here, it is widely acknowledged that ADHD is over-diagnosed, particularly in America. There is even some dispute about whether ADHD exists, as a disease, at all. It may simply represent a marginally extreme personality type.

[Julia]

I get the impression that as a child Spec was regularly on the receiving end of a damn good thrashing, but as we can see it didn't do him any harm. :cheesy:

[siestatime]

The fact remains I am entitled to an opinion like anybody else and I'm sticking to it.

Of course you are. Luckily the rest of the world doesn't seem to share it.

List of countries prohibiting corporal punishment in schools
Albania
Algeria
Andorra
Angola
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Belarus
Belgium
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Cameroon
Canada
Chile
China
Congo, Republic of
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominican Republic
DR Congo
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
Gabon
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Iran, Islamic Rep. of
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Jordan
Kenya
Kiribati
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malawi
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritius
Micronesia, Fed. States
Mongolia
Montenegro
Namibia
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Oman
Papua New Guinea
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Republic of Moldova
Romania
Russian Federation
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Senegal
Serbia
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
TFYR Macedonia
Thailand
Tonga
Turkey
Turkmenistan
UK
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
Vanuatu
Venezuela
Yemen
ZambiaSource: End All Corporal Punishment of Children (http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/)

[Cuddles]

Because the prescriptions for synthetic drugs are free to the under 16s.

Should move to Wales, they're free for everyone.


Despite the argument going on here, it is widely acknowledged that ADHD is over-diagnosed, particularly in America. There is even some dispute about whether ADHD exists, as a disease, at all. It may simply represent a marginally extreme personality type.

This is a point I was going to bring up. While there can be no doubt that Ritalin is effective in the treatment of ADD, there can also be no doubt that ADD is horribly over-diagnosed and is often used simply as a way for to control children who act like normal children. Being active and inattentive is what children do, especially somewhere boring like school. Sure, there are cases where drugs and/or therapy are approriate and it is good that these are now recognised much more, but that doesn't mean drugs should be used as a substitute for decent parenting.

[Mulder]

This is a point I was going to bring up...

Maybe I'm psychic ... :smiley:

[spec]

That is what makes you a fantasist.

I was thinking we could have a mature debate, but; a certain character has chosen to get personal.

If you can't respect the opinions of others, then; perhaps you should reconsider contributing to these sites.

[Mongrel]

If you can't respect the opinions of others, then; perhaps you should reconsider contributing to these sites.

And if you can't stop disrespecting facts and evidence then perhaps you should reconsider contributing to these sites. O0

[spec]

You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts

Facts can be lies too, you know.


promotion of child abuse

Unlikely, chastising a child with a slap is not abuse.


I get the impression that as a child Spec was regularly on the receiving end of a damn good thrashing, but as we can see it didn't do him any harm.

Not quite, but I did get whacked now and again. You missed out. Kids need to learn boundaries, because if they don't they grow up to be wild. Hence, the need for the new prison places, and mental health facilities.

[Matt]

I was thinking we could have a mature debate, but; a certain character has chosen to get personal.

If you can't respect the opinions of others, then; perhaps you should reconsider contributing to these sites.

I don't respect all opinions equally, I respect opinions supported by emprical evidence above those which are refuted by it.

If you believe all opinions should be resepcted then respect mine. This is a skeptics forum. Read this
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_skepticism.php

If you cannot justify your opinions using the methods detailed above, if you cannot accept the criticism that these methods with generate then you have no place here.

That's my opinion, lets see if you respect it.

[Pebble]

The fact remains I am entitled to an opinion like anybody else and I'm sticking to it.

Ritalin is a stimulant and therefore cannot have a calming effect.
It's insanity to think otherwise.


Alcohol is a depressant that causes individuals at a certain level of inebriation to become aggressive and violent! Benzodiazepines (e.g. vallium) cause certain individuals (usually elderly) to become agitated and confused. So the common sense argument falls at the first hurdle.

But it is telling that you would wish to stick to your opinion whatever the evidence - couple this with a belief that your gut feeling is right and it is amazing what can be regarded as fact! There is in this situation no limit, anything you can imagine as being true requires no further validation.

As for smacking children, by your reckoning the 'fact' that you think this is harmless is the end of the story, no evidence will sway you. So if others believe that starving children, or beating them severely is good for their 'soul' then that is OK with you as everyone is entitled to their opinion, no facts can affect their opinion and their children just have to put up with the result. Strange!

[Mongrel]

Facts can be lies too, you know.

You really do suck at this, don't you?

fact

• noun 1 a thing that is indisputably the case. 2 (facts) information used as evidence or as part of a report.
(http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/fact?view=uk)

For scientific facts you can add "and has been independently verified" at the end of the first option.

Facts can be misused, these are regarded as fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies), or they can be misinterpreted.

To ignore them in favour of your 'opinions' just stinks of wilful ignorance.

[spec]

You really do suck at this, don't you?

I'll ignore this!


wilful ignorance.

If I'm ignorant. How can I be wilfully aware that I am?

[spec]

As for smacking children, by your reckoning the 'fact' that you think this is harmless

I never said it was harmless.

Also, by your reckoning; if I thought it. How would you know, Can you read minds?

[spec]

Amphetamines have a calming effect, yes indeed.

Follow the Link:

http://www.tomhilditch.com/stories/yaba.htm

[SimonC]

I never said it was harmless.

Also, by your reckoning; if I thought it. How would you know, Can you read minds?

More than harmless - you claimed, in the first post of this thread, that it is beneficial;


Parents should give them a good slap and teach them right from wrong, then they will tow the line.

[Mongrel]

If I'm ignorant. How can I be wilfully aware that I am?

No, you revel in your ignorance by denying any and all evidence put before you. Ignorant - Unaware of the facts
Wilfully ignorant - Refusal to adjust your worldview after being made aware of the facts.


Amphetamines have a calming effect, yes indeed.

Follow the Link:

http://www.tomhilditch.com/stories/yaba.htm

See, now I've got to pull out the kittens...
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/Mongrel01/Cats/Ihavesomeiss.jpg

[SimonC]

I just looked at your link, Spec, and I find that I have no idea what point you're trying to make by its inclusion. Are you saying that 'drugs can be abused'? Well, I don't think many people would disagree with that. Beyond that very obvious conclusion, I fail to see how the link advances your argument.

The fact that the drug cited in your link happens to be amphetamine-based does not make it exceptional. As has been mentioned several times, the effect of most ( if not all ) drugs is largely dependant on dosage and the way in which the drug is administered, among other factors. Take the humble paracetamol as a crude example - a couple of tablets may well shift a headache, 200 tablets will have a very different effect.

Any drug can be abused, quite obviously, and I fail to see how your link says anything more pertinent than this.

[spec]

I fail to see how your link says anything more pertinent than this.

It highlights that amphetamine based stimulants, like Ritalin can lead to a huge increase in aggressive tendancies.

I feel I'm wasting my time here, if you can't see that SimonC theres no hope for you. You're clearly in denial, or ignorant.

Secondly,


More than harmless - you claimed, in the first post of this thread, that it is beneficial;

A slap is beneficial if it stops a child carrying out a malicious act that may endanger that child or another person.

[Julia]

The tone of Spec's posts here and the fact he thinks Chariots of the Gods is "a real eye-opener" is enough, in my opinion, to identify him as a troll.

Watch out for the billygoats, Spec! :cheesy:

[spec]

See, now I've got to pull out the kittens...

This just proves what I thought all along that you, Mongrel, are childish.
And as I said before, trying to explain anything to a child is a waste of time as they do not have the intelligence to understand.

I'm moving on, no doubt we'll cross swords again on other issues.

Also, SimonC it's clear by your previous response that you have lost sight of the link between amphetamines, stimulants and Ritalin and the adverse effects.
Try going to the begining of this thread, and read all the posts, that way you'll get the whole gist of the issues raised.

[spec]

identify him as a troll.


Watch out for the billygoats, Spec!

Another child contributing, you and Mongrel would make good playmates.

Maybe some Ritalin will give you the desired concentration level required, Then you might make sense when you post.

[bindeweede]

This just proves what I thought all along that you, Mongrel, are childish.
And as I said before, trying to explain anything to a child is a waste of time as they do not have the intelligence to understand.

I'm moving on, no doubt we'll cross swords again on other issues.

Also, SimonC it's clear by your previous response that you have lost sight of the link between amphetamines, stimulants and Ritalin and the adverse effects.
Try going to the begining of this thread, and read all the posts, that way you'll get the whole gist of the issues raised.

Did you read this?


Ritalin tablets contain the active ingredient methylphenidate hydrochloride, which is a type of medicine called a stimulant. It is used to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children. (NB. Methylphenidate tablets are also available without a brand name, ie as the generic (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/brand_generic.htm) medicine.)

Stimulants are related to amphetamines, which might make them seem an odd choice for treating hyperactive children, because stimulants increase activity in the brain and normally make people more alert and active. However, stimulants at the doses used for ADHD have the opposite effect.

Methylphenidate works by affecting some of the natural chemicals that are found in the brain. In particular, it increases the activity of chemicals called dopamine and noradrenaline in areas of the brain that play a part in controlling attention and behaviour. These areas seem to be underactive in children with ADHD. It is thought increasing the activity of these chemicals improves the function of these underactive parts of the brain. We still don’t fully understand how stimulants work in children with ADHD, and they don’t work for everyone. But they can be very useful at helping some children to learn to control their behaviour.

Methylphenidate is not used for all children with ADHD. It is used as part of a comprehensive treatment programme for ADHD that includes psychotherapy and behavioural management techniques, and is only used in children in whom these treatments have proved to be insufficient on their own. It should only be used under the supervision of a specialist in childhood behavioural disorders, and only after the severity of the child's symptoms has been thoroughly assessed.

Source - http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100002286.html

[Pebble]

I never said it was harmless.

Also, by your reckoning; if I thought it. How would you know, Can you read minds?

J Child Adolesc Psychopharmacol. 2007 Aug;17(4):421-32. Links
Long-acting methylphenidate has an effect on aggressive behavior in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.

Sinzig J, Döpfner M, Lehmkuhl G; German Methylphenidate Study Group, Uebel H, Schmeck K, Poustka F, Gerber WD, Günter M, Knölker U, Gehrke M, Hässler F, Resch F, Brünger M, Ose C, Fischer R.
Department for Psychiatry and Psychotherapy of Children & Adolescents at the University of Cologne, Köln, Germany. ju.k.sinzig@web.de
INTRODUCTION: Aggression is frequently observed in children and adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The aim of this study was to assess the efficacy with regard to oppositional and aggressive behavior of a new long-acting methylphenidate preparation (Medikinet retard, MPH-MR), with equal portions of the immediate-release and the sustained-release active substance, and especially to look at correlations between either teacher or parent assessment of aggression and ADHD sub-symptomatology. METHODS: Eighty five children and adolescents (6-16 years) were investigated in a double-blind, randomized, clinical trial over 5 weeks under a treatment with MPH-MR using symptom checklists for ADHD, oppositional-defiant and conduct disorder according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV). RESULTS: A total of 64.9% of the children showed oppositional defiant disorder/conduct disorder (ODD/CD) symptoms. A statistically significant effect was found in the group treated with MPH (verum-group). On the basis of Cohen's criteria, high effects were found for aggressive symptoms in school (d = 1.0), but not in the afternoon (d = 0.4). There were also lower effect sizes for more severe aggressive symptoms. We found characteristic correlations between ODD/CD symptoms and the ADHD subscale hyperactivity/impulsivity compared to the subscale inattention. CONCLUSIONS: Long-acting MPH is effective in the treatment of oppositional-defiant and aggressive behavior, especially concerning milder symptoms. The expected correlation between impulsivity and aggressiveness could be confirmed.

Just one of 480 randomised controlled trials on the effects of ritalin on brain function and behaviour, these consistently show that it's effects are much more complex than you believe.

Your complete failure to address the main points of my previous entry does not go un-noted. Is your objective simply to carp, or do you have a serious point to make, and if so:
1. What precisely is it?
2. Will you defend it point by point, or simply choose minor points to post ripostes?

If the latter - I would start with how many randomised trials are there of smacking versus non smacking in terms of effects on behaviour?

[bindeweede]

a
Well, it's finally happening.

Kids all over the country are reaching adulthood, and running riot.

There has been a great deal of uproar over the disrespect and anti-social behaviour, that is prevalent in U. K. society. Surprise, surprise.

From your original post.

[quote]Who is affected by ADHD?

About 1.7 per cent of the UK population, mostly children, have ADD or ADHD. Boys are more likely to be affected.

Much more here....

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/adhd.htm

[bindeweede]

Give them a slap, they don't have the intelligence to understand right from wrong if you try to explain it to them.

It comes down to this, the whole industry of childhood phychiatry is a nonsense, an american fad. It was created for parents who don't want the inconvience of looking after their kids.

Instead of the parent being in control, they would rather just dope their kids up, and pass the buck when the kid gets in trouble.

Perhaps the parents themselves are druggies, leading by example I guess.

Any parent who allows their kid to be turned into a junkie is a disgrace.
But, maybe thats their plan, to take the drugs themselves or sell them on. It wouldn't surprise me.

But there are alternatives to a "slap".


Management techniques for parents and teachers

Create a daily routine for the child, eg homework schedules, bedtime and mealtime routines.
Be specific in your instructions to the child and make clear and reasonable requests, eg instead of telling the child to 'behave' suggest 'play quietly with your Lego for 10 minutes'.
Set clear and easily understood boundaries, eg how much TV they may watch, and that rudeness is unacceptable.
Be consistent in the handling and managing of the child.
Remove disturbing or disruptive elements from their daily routine. For example, remove siblings from the room when they are doing homework or turn off the TV.
Plan structured programmes aimed at gradually lengthening the child's concentration span and ability to focus on tasks.
Communicate with the child on a one-to-one basis and avoid addressing other children at the same time.
Use rewards (eg stickers, tokens or even money) consistently and frequently to reinforce appropriate behaviour such as listening to adults and concentrating.
Use sanctions (eg loss of privileges, being sent to their room) for unacceptable behaviour or 'overstepping' of boundaries.
Discuss your child with their school or nursery and see if you can work together.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/adhd.htm

[siestatime]

Spec, if I read your posts correctly, according to you children are capable of "malicious acts" and furthermore"they do not have the intelligence to understand." This is a contradiction. The very meaning of the word "malicious" denotes a deliberate choice to do harm. Someone who is not intelligent cannot deliberately choose to perform a malicious act.

I note you haven't commented on the fact that you are in a minority as regards methods of disciplning children. Please show me some proof from some accredited organisations that administering physical punishment on children is in any way beneficial.

[Mongrel]

This just proves what I thought all along that you, Mongrel, are childish.

Says the person who ignores clinical evidence. ::)

Kittening a thread used to be a tradition at JREF when you where dealing with a troll who refused to even look at the facts.

Are you able to provide a scrap of evidence, from a suitably qualified person, to back up your claims?

Feelings, intuition, "common sense" or random web articles don't count...

[SimonC]

Spec - do you agree that the effects of a drug will vary according to the amount taken, the purity of the substance, the combination of the substance with other drugs, the biology of the individual consuming the substance, the frequency with which it is administered and similar factors?

[mahakala]

Interesting the way this conversation has gone. I've met people for whom ritalin was a godsend because that part of their brain did need stimulating. But for everyone else it is just a stimulant, and a conveniant way to avoid dealing with the family stress and other things of the like, or improving grades. Of course if you are in favour of social engineering by manipulating brain chemistry...............

The fact is, messing with brain chemistry can be a slippery slope. For instance, do you know the long terms effects of serotonin uptake inhibitors, which have never been approved for long term use but are used that way anyway?

And why are doctors prescribing brain altering drugs without any kind of testing to determine whether the problem actually is in the brain chemistry. If you guys are for rational thinking then why don't you advocate that, and suggest proper testing instead of local GPs writing scripts willy nilly because they don't know what else to do.

Then there is that little problem of educational delivery being entirely outdated in respect to the kind of brain and learning styles of many kids growing up in modern times.

Etc., Etc.

[SimonC]

Interesting the way this conversation has gone. I've met people for whom ritalin was a godsend because that part of their brain did need stimulating. But for everyone else it is just a stimulant, and a conveniant way to avoid dealing with the family stress and other things of the like, or improving grades. Of course if you are in favour of social engineering by manipulating brain chemistry...............

The fact is, messing with brain chemistry can be a slippery slope. For instance, do you know the long terms effects of serotonin uptake inhibitors, which have never been approved for long term use but are used that way anyway?

And why are doctors prescribing brain altering drugs without any kind of testing to determine whether the problem actually is in the brain chemistry. If you guys are for rational thinking then why don't you advocate that, and suggest proper testing instead of local GPs writing scripts willy nilly because they don't know what else to do.

Then there is that little problem of educational delivery being entirely outdated in respect to the kind of brain and learning styles of many kids growing up in modern times.

Etc., Etc.

Shock, horror! There are parts of your post which, even as a skeptic, I agree with very much. I strongly share your concerns about the long-term administration of SSRIs, having a very close friend who has struggled with depression for many years, and who has been 'fobbed off' with repeat prescritions of Prozac for six or seven years. Over the last year she has begun to suffer severe panic attacks, and her GP has now prescribed Valium, on top of her antidepressants. I am currently trying, very gently, to suggest to her that this is not a good combination, although this is very difficult as I am flying in the face of her GP's advice. So, yes, in this respect I do share your concerns about the willy-nilly way that some medications are prescribed.

Also, yes, I agree entirely that GPs are not the perfect agents to undertake the task of prescribing Ritalin, and similar drugs. This is an exacting task and would, in an ideal world, be undertaken by specialists in child-development. Traditionally the GPs' role has been to prescribe 'nuts and bolts' remedies, and they cannot also be expected to specialise in child psychology. I would be more than happy to see this task undertaken by dedicated, and suitably trained, specialists.

I also second your comments about educational delivery. I work as a commercial artist, but also do voluntary teaching as I find it very rewarding. I agree entirely that the 'system' which regulates education is something of an anachronism in respect to childrens' everyday experience. This is one of the main points where I disagree with Spec's comments - I feel that long-term behavioural difficulties can be much more effectively addressed through educational and societal means than by 'smacking'.

Also I have yet to see Spec present any tangible evidence that the prescrition of Ritalin leads directly to anti-social behaviour, either during or post-consumption of the drug.

[Janot]

But there are alternatives to a "slap".I agree, but I'm not sure if true under all circumstances.

Tedious but true anecdote: I was sitting in a bus at a bus stop. Just in front of the bus on the pavement was a mother and father, 4-6 year old kid, and baby in pram. The parents were suddenly distracted by a shop window. The kid promptly grabbed the pram and pushed it out onto the road in front of the bus, and my heart stopped when I saw a car overtaking the bus almost collide with the pram.

None of your suggested alternatives for slapping seem appropriate for the above occasion, when the kid got a very hard slap across bare legs, and then the father was reprimanded by some woman leaving the bus for abusing his child. The reaction of the father had been instinctive, and I might have done the same.

[SimonC]

You make a fair point, Janot. As you say in the final sentence of your post, however, this is a situation where the parent's reaction is instinctive. I would suggest that the father acted out of momentary panic; both being angry at his child, and scared by the potential consequences of his child's actions. The father's reaction, under these circumstances was, I would argue, perfectly 'normal' and justified.

I would hope that the father would also discuss with his child the seriousness of his actions, after the situation had calmed down, and explain why the child had received the slap.

Wise parents would also, I think, look at themselves after such a situation and find ways to teach their elder child about the value of life, and how fragile it can be etc.

I'd suggest, however, that there's a world of difference between a situation such as the one you describe, and the habitual use of slapping/hitting as a corrective technique.

[Janot]

I'd suggest, however, that there's a world of difference between a situation such as the one you describe, and the habitual use of slapping/hitting as a corrective technique.I couldn't agree more. I was merely acting against the thoughtless dogma that there are no circumstances under which a child should receive a slap. This is too simplistic, and in extremis I think a slap can be perfectly justified.

[Janot]

I would hope that the father would also discuss with his child the seriousness of his actionsSo would I. Sorry if I sound cynical, but I'm afraid my experiences force me to conclude that not many people actually discuss anything with anybody.