Psychiatrist or Exorcist?

[dalriada]

At the moment I'm trying to collate a list of online resources on ethical and philosophical issues in mental health care for use by student nurses. I was particularly looking for stuff on the personal and spiritual dimensions of people who may be experiencing mental health difficulties and lo-and-behold I came across:

A Resource List for the Spirituality and Psychiatry Special Interest Group of the Royal College of Psychiatrists:

Has anyone seen this??

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/specialinterestgroups/spirituality/resources/organisations.aspx

Check out the top named resource

http://www.spiritrelease.com/

:undecided:

That sounds an awful lot like exorcism to me....Endorsed by the Royal College???
My boggle threshold is well and truly breached...

[DrS]

Good grief. Your boggle threshold might well be well and truly breached; my own gob is thoroughly smacked. :shocked:

[Fiona]

*Lies down in a darkened room *

[wrongun]

Hi - I saw dalriada's info at BadPsychics and so thought I'd also add my reply here FYI:
The Spirit Release website might be bad enough with its 'case studies' (including proof from spirits coming thro in trance!) You could excuse one oddball psychiatrist's website and even think the Royal college just hasnt checked the site BUT IT'S WORSE THAN THAT...

If you are into reading heavy articles go to the royal college's website :

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/specialinterestgroups/spirituality.aspxSpirituality

scroll down to newsletters and have a read.
There are psychiatrist pieces on why Disassociate Disorder is really possession, quoting Djwhal Khul (a Tibetan 'Master' who 'talked' via Theosophist Alice Bailey!) :

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Laura%20Har....y%201.5 .06.pdf (http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Laura%20Harrison%20Multiple%20Personality%20Disord er;%20an%20Alternative%20Theory%201.5.06.pdf);

how mediums help you realise you are also a medium (surprise surprise):

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/A%20persona....al%20EDITED.pdf (http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/A%20personal%20experience%20of%20Kundalini%20%20Sa rah%20Sourial%20EDITED.pdf);

and gems such as this:

These days, science is so bent on the impersonal credibility of normothetic statistics that case studies are seriously out of fashion. Although many parapsychological experiments have now been shown to stand up to statistical scrutiny, the phenomena associated with Mediumship are more elusive and highly individual. Perhaps this is the quantum effect. I remember talking with a medical colleague whose wife had a tumour. They went to the Philippines to see a psychic surgeon and my friend described standing next to his wife and seeing the healer’s hand disappear right into her abdomen, and re-emerge, without leaving a mark.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/APowellReviewDFontana.pdf

this has to be one of the best phrases of nonsense I have read in ages and I love how he uses quantum!
There is a goldmine of fun reading here. The credulity in some of these articles in a psychiatrists journal is breathtaking, hilarious and then pretty worrying!

[ForAllOfThis]

That is really bad. Using exorcism on a patient would only 'feed their delusions' and make the patients condition worse.

I don't get it, psychologists that try to conduct research into measuarable phenomena get their balls busted at the mere sight of anything unethical but the psychiatrists are allowed to perform exorcisms on the mentally ill and vulnerable?

Pfft.

[VoodooJoe]

That is really bad. Using exorcism on a patient would only 'feed their delusions' and make the patients condition worse....

Would it though? ritual is a powerful cultural tool, who is to say an exorcism on a person who genuinely believes they are possessed may help someone come to terms with their condition or help them cope with the problems that their illness causes them.

[ForAllOfThis]

Well no because seeing as there is not actually a demon or spirit inside them then whatever underlying causes (biological or otherwise) that have created the delusions that they are being possessed will not be removed. The fact that they are being exoricsed will just reinforce their delusions because it shows that other people believe that the individual has a demon/spirit inside them as well.

[VoodooJoe]

^^
It is easy to assume someone is delusional because they hold what you consider to be a strange belief, however, it maybe that the individual is from a culture where spirit possession is considered normal or that the patient comes from a culture where the idea of possession and the self is different to yours, it could simply be that the person is not particularly well educated and their assumption that they are possessed is perfectly rational.

Remember also, even if the patient is delusion, the goal here isnt to "stop them being delusion", the goal is to give the patient the best quality of life. It could well be that trying to treat the patient with drugs and talking therapies is inapropriate for that individual and they would be better off with something that helps them cope with day to day life, an if that involves some bizarre ooga-booga ritual, then sure, why not?

[VoodooJoe]

repeat post

[ForAllOfThis]

Delusion - Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

The fact that they think their thinking is rational, when it isn't, further supports the idea that it is a delusion. Furthermore the topic is aimed at the royal college of psychiatrists, which is best in the UK. I highly doubt that these psychiatrists are treating anyone that are not in a 'non-western' culture and therefore drug therapies, behavioural therapies and cognitive therapies are acceptable forms of treatment for any individual.

I stand by my opinion that the only way an exorcism could be of any use is if the person has an actual demon or spirit inside them.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/bible-used-to-treat-mental-illness/2008/03/16/1205602228237.html

Its also highly unethical.

[dalriada]

Would it though? ritual is a powerful cultural tool, who is to say an exorcism on a person who genuinely believes they are possessed may help someone come to terms with their condition or help them cope with the problems that their illness causes them.

Leaving aside the argument about the biochemical basis for many forms of mental illness (which I suspect exorcism alters not one bit). I think the key word there is "cultural".

Do we live in a culture involving belief in possession and ritual exorcism?

Should we?

[VoodooJoe]

The fact that they think their thinking is rational, when it isn't, further supports the idea that it is a delusion..

It is entirely possible for someone to come to the conclusion they are possessed using a rational thought process (taking into account life experience and cultural context of course.)
You shouldnt automatically assume someone is mentally ill if they hold a view you find strange, they might have very good reason to believe what they believe.

Like dalriada rightly points out, culture is a large factor (as is education).


Furthermore the topic is aimed at the royal college of psychiatrists, which is best in the UK. I highly doubt that these psychiatrists are treating anyone that are not in a 'non-western' culture and therefore drug therapies, behavioural therapies and cognitive therapies are acceptable forms of treatment for any individual...

A significant proportion of british society is non-western (interestingly a disproportionate number of british psychiatric patients are from non-western backgrounds, but thats another thread.)

Also dont make the assumption all western cultural groups are educated and place high value in scientific thinking, they dont.

[ForAllOfThis]

Don't assume that all non-educated people who live in western cultures believe in possession either =).

And your definition of mental illness is all wrong. Mental illness occurs when it prevents (or increases the difficulty) of performing day to day tasks. In most cases if a person believes they are being possessed by a spirit or demon (even in another culture) this will make day to day tasks a lot more difficult because of suspicion etc.

It is also a mental illness if the symptoms are reoccuring over a certain period of time (otherwise most people in western cultures would have been diagnosed as depressed at some time).

We do live in a multicultural society but it is still a western society and the UK is still a developed country, where western influences are a lot more dominant.

Proof is shown through the change in religion, I know a couple of british Sikhs, and they have cut there hair and do not completely follow the rules of there religion, however in their original cultures this would not have been acceptable. Therefore when another culture is placed in a western country, the western culture influences them greater than you would think and visa versa.

Either way exorcism as a therapy has no use or no place in western cultures at the very least.

Using it in any culture is unethical for several reasons. Firstly a lot of exorcisms are violent practices, where the patients believe they are experiencing pain or do feel physical and emotional pain. How would the patient feel after the therapy, if it was successful as well? Secondly, when should exorcism be used and who gets to decide? If the patient is unfit to make such a decision should the therapy still be used, cause thats not 'informed consent'. Furthermore who gets access to that medical information? Future empoyers would not be impressed if they found out that an applicant had been exorcised, and most of the time patients who have had mental illness have to give details of there mental illness. Can a patient withdraw from the therapy if he/she so wishes? I can't see how its possible because the exorcist would not know if it was the demon/spirit speaking or the patient.

[VoodooJoe]

How do we know a person wouldnt respond well to exorcism?

Exorcism has been around for thousands of years and is found in almost every religion and culture, so people must be getting something out of it (?)

[ForAllOfThis]

Violence is present in nearly every culture (apart from the amish and some buddhist cultures) and religion as well, but it doesn't mean that people are getting anything out of it.

God is in most religions and cultures, doesn't mean that god exist.

Your looking mostly at past cultures (at least in the western cultures) where the church used the idea of hell, demons and the devil as a form of social control.

Its been shown that paranoid schizophrenia has 'adapted' with technological advancements. Before space travel was invented, schizophrenics believe that there head was being invaded by radio waves. However today they believe that aliens or the goverment is using the internet to get into their heads.

Surely before either radio waves and the goverment/aliens were formed as concepts it was possible for a schizophrenic to believe that demons were trying to invade their head, and without prior knowledge the church identified these people as 'needing to be exoricsed'. If it worked at the time it may be because of a behavioural response:

"If I tell people demons are trying to invade my head they will punish me with pain and threaten to send me to hell." Therefore the person may still believe that demons are trying to invade there but just not express it which could make the condition much worse.

In which case just because something removed the behaviour it doesn't mean that the condition is not there still.

One last point, trepanning has been around for 1000's of years and was used on mentally ill patients it does not mean that the patients got anything out of it (other than an infection and possible death).

[VoodooJoe]

Violence is present in nearly every culture (apart from the amish and some buddhist cultures) and religion as well, but it doesn't mean that people are getting anything out of it.).

Im not sure what this means, I am also unsure I agree with your statement about violence being non-existant in amish and buddhist cultures.


God is in most religions and cultures, doesn't mean that god exist.

It doesnt mean god doesnt exist either.


Your looking mostly at past cultures (at least in the western cultures) where the church used the idea of hell, demons and the devil as a form of social control.

Not really, I stand by my statement that exorcism is a practice in most religions it is not just a feature of christianity.


Its been shown that paranoid schizophrenia has 'adapted' with technological advancements. Before space travel was invented, schizophrenics believe that there head was being invaded by radio waves. However today they believe that aliens or the goverment is using the internet to get into their heads.

Again, your making the assumption everyone who believes in possession is mentally ill.


Surely before either radio waves and the goverment/aliens were formed as concepts it was possible for a schizophrenic to believe that demons were trying to invade their head, and without prior knowledge the church identified these people as 'needing to be exoricsed'. If it worked at the time it may be because of a behavioural response:

"If I tell people demons are trying to invade my head they will punish me with pain and threaten to send me to hell." Therefore the person may still believe that demons are trying to invade there but just not express it which could make the condition much worse
In which case just because something removed the behaviour it doesn't mean that the condition is not there still...

I think the point you have come to is very reasonable in terms of logic but I dont think you have ever met someone who actually suffers from a psychotic illness, you cant really fake getting better and cover up a disease like schizophrenia.


One last point, trepanning has been around for 1000's of years and was used on mentally ill patients it does not mean that the patients got anything out of it (other than an infection and possible death).

How do you know?

[ForAllOfThis]

Skulls have been found with two holes in. If trepanning had indeed released the demons then why would they need a second hole, unless it didn't work. The only effect it would have is the release of pressure on the brain, which would be useless for most mental illnesses and would only help in the short term for people experiencing psychosis due to increased pressure upon the brain.

You surely can't suggest exoricsim is a suitable form of treatment for any person, regardless of culture and/or religion. I have already pointed out the ethical considerations which you seem to have ignored (because you know I am right?).

Furthermore if the posession is not a mental illness, then i'll assume that it is just a 'one off' episode. In which case the episode should pass without the need of treatment, and the person should not experience it again. If the possession is regular, or consists of one very long episode (2 or more weeks) then I believe it can be considered a mental illness using the definition below.

Also your the one talking about using exorcism to treat a patient. In which case if possession is not a mental illness then why does it need treatment of any sort?

VoodooJoe: "Would it though? ritual is a powerful cultural tool, who is to say an exorcism on a person who genuinely believes they are possessed may help someone come to terms with their condition or help them cope with the problems that their illness causes them."

For the sake of this argument, we are assuming that possession is a condition or illness that causes problems, and those are your words.

Of course, whether possession is a mental illness or not is a completely different thread.

(I have to admit reading my last post it is a little thin on the ground argument wise, but this post feels like I've made my stand in this discussion)

[VoodooJoe]

Skulls have been found with two holes in. If trepanning had indeed released the demons then why would they need a second hole, unless it didn't work. The only effect it would have is the release of pressure on the brain, which would be useless for most mental illnesses and would only help in the short term for people experiencing psychosis due to increased pressure upon the brain.)

This is working a bit too much on supposition, we dont really know what effect trepanation had on people and in many cases we dont know why it was done in the first place,. So maybe we should leave trepanation alone.


You surely can't suggest exoricsim is a suitable form of treatment for any person, regardless of culture and/or religion.

Im not ruling it out, Ive met people who have had their lives changed by prescribed religious rituals.


I have already pointed out the ethical considerations which you seem to have ignored (because you know I am right?).

Your argument centered around "reinforcing delusions", if someone is suffering from delusions caused by an organic mental illness then a religious ritual (or any other event) isnt going to change those delusions either way, though, who knows, it may provide some form of therapeutic comfort, of course it might also cause distress, the simple fact of the matter is we do not know.


Furthermore if the posession is not a mental illness, then i'll assume that it is just a 'one off' episode. In which case the episode should pass without the need of treatment, and the person should not experience it again.

Why would you assume that?


If the possession is regular, or consists of one very long episode (2 or more weeks) then I believe it can be considered a mental illness using the definition below..

When i was in port-au-prince i met and witnessed 100s of people who experienced something they believed to be spirit possession on a weekly basis for many years.

Are all those people mentally ill?



Also your the one talking about using exorcism to treat a patient. In which case if possession is not a mental illness then why does it need treatment of any sort?

VoodooJoe: "Would it though? ritual is a powerful cultural tool, who is to say an exorcism on a person who genuinely believes they are possessed may help someone come to terms with their condition or help them cope with the problems that their illness causes them."..

Apologies, i should be clearer (btw english is not my first language.)

Thats why i used the word "or", when i say "condition" i dont mean in terms of illness i mean it terms of a state of being.


For the sake of this argument, we are assuming that possession is a condition or illness that causes problems, and those are your words..

I never said it it couldnt help someone with a disease that makes them have delusions of possession, i dont believe it could cure someone with schizophrenia, but im not ruling out it couldnt help them with the emotional distress the delusions carry.

The point i was trying to make is that there could be many resons for a person to believe they are possessed, mental illness could well be a reason, HOWEVER, we shouldnt jump to conclusions and many folk who hold strange beliefs are perfectly sane.

[ForAllOfThis]

Your argument centered around "reinforcing delusions", if someone is suffering from delusions caused by an organic mental illness then a religious ritual (or any other event) isnt going to change those delusions either way, though, who knows, it may provide some form of therapeutic comfort, of course it might also cause distress, the simple fact of the matter is we do not know.

Thats not necessarily true, it is well known that biological factors are influenced by social factors. Ultimately if someone holds a belief (such as a religous viewpoint) it can be reinforced through learning.



Why would you assume that?

Look at the definition of mental illness. Has to happen on a regular basis make their life more difficult.


When i was in port-au-prince i met and witnessed 100s of people who experienced something they believed to be spirit possession on a weekly basis for many years.

Are all those people mentally ill?

If it is classed as part of their everyday lives and is considered normal for the culture then they do not need any sort of treatment which means there is no ned for exorcism.


I never said it it couldnt help someone with a disease that makes them have delusions of possession

"if someone is suffering from delusions caused by an organic mental illness then a religious ritual (or any other event) isnt going to change those delusions either way"

You have contradicted yourself O0.


The point i was trying to make is that there could be many resons for a person to believe they are possessed, mental illness could well be a reason, HOWEVER, we shouldnt jump to conclusions and many folk who hold strange beliefs are perfectly sane.

In which case if they have strange beliefs and are perfectly sane, there is no need for treatment and exorcism need not be used. Once again this argument is seeming rather pointless.

Ultimately what I am trying to say is for the sake of the argument where it has been suggested that exorcism is to be used as a treatment, the person must be mentally ill to need treatment. Therefore your arguments that it is a perfectly normal behaviour in other cultures is flawed.

[VoodooJoe]

"if someone is suffering from delusions caused by an organic mental illness then a religious ritual (or any other event) isnt going to change those delusions either way"

You have contradicted yourself O0.



I understand your argument and i appreciate it.

But please do me the courtesy of reading my posts fully and please dont quote me out of context, i clearly said it might help on an emotional level despite not effecting the underlying disease itself (of course it might not, we simply dont know until some tries it).

My second point was not everyone who believes they are possessed is mentally ill, just because they are not mentally ill, it doesnt mean their experiences with "possession" are going to be pleasant.

[evakalo]

[quote= Either way exorcism as a therapy has no use or no place in western cultures at the very least. ]

As an individual, you can't really call the shots on what is appropriate for western culture.
I saw an excorcist. He didn't do any hocus pocus but he helped me understand some things about myself. Basically, supposition is a human error and all who fall into it do so blindly, and it is injurious to self and others. This was one of my faults. I would put things together and 'suppose' I knew what they meant, like "Why does that guy's face turn sour every time he looks at me? Obviously, he doesn't like me." Right?
That seems like a pretty logical supposition.
It turned out that 'he', as a consecrated religious, was practicing 'non-feeling'. When he saw a woman his practice was to immediately turn to internal meditation to take his mind where he wanted it to be instead of 'woman chasing'.
I suffered for months over why this brother didn't like me.
This, an excorcist showed me, a flaw in my internal workings. Life is a lot nicer being able to recognize the difference between supposed reality and real reality.
The moral of the story is that they are not all quacks, and the good ones have immeasurable value, unscientific successes.

[evakalo]

[quote posted by ForAllOfThis = Either way exorcism as a therapy has no use or no place in western cultures at the very least. ] (sorry, I didn't manage to do the quote properly.)

As an individual, you can't really call the shots on what is appropriate for western culture.
I saw an excorcist. He didn't do any hocus pocus but he helped me understand some things about myself. Basically, supposition is a human error and all who fall into it do so blindly, and it is injurious to self and others. This was one of my faults. I would put things together and 'suppose' I knew what they meant, like "Why does that guy's face turn sour every time he looks at me? Obviously, he doesn't like me." Right?
That seems like a pretty logical supposition.
It turned out that 'he', as a consecrated religious, was practicing 'non-feeling'. When he saw a woman his practice was to immediately turn to internal meditation to take his mind where he wanted it to be instead of 'woman chasing'.
I suffered for months over why this brother didn't like me.
This, an excorcist showed me, a flaw in my internal workings. Life is a lot nicer being able to recognize the difference between supposed reality and real reality.
The moral of the story is that they are not all quacks, and the good ones have immeasurable value, unscientific successes.