Magnet therapy, chiropractic,..

[bindeweede]

..and snail mucus. From Penn and Teller.

MzjoKhBklYg

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Interestingly, my brother was visiting last night, and he was wearing a £20 magnetic bracelet he is now selling in his sports shop. I told him last time I seen him that it was a complete fraud but I think he probably believes it a bit. He thinks the sports companies must know more than his cynical and skeptical brother.

Anyway, it was an incredibly flimsy piece of shit, just a little lightweight plastic bracelet. I'd be surprised if the magnets in it could even lift some iron filings >:-)

He disclosed the next thing he is looking at is some sort of postive ion stuff that is big in Japan. He tried to justify that it works, because he named another large sports company that is using the 'technology'. It's all about stopping the free radicals from entering your body apparantly.

[Mongrel]

It's all about stopping the free radicals from entering your body apparantly.

So skin isn't good enough for him nowdays?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

So skin isn't good enough for him nowdays?

Funnily enough I asked him that ;)

[bindeweede]

So skin isn't good enough for him nowdays?

Can't free radicals get up your nose? I came across this, but my eyes started to go funny after a few paragraphs. No, really.


http://www.dsrf.co.uk/Reading_material/Free_radicals/freerads2.htm

[Cuddles]

Can't free radicals get up your nose?

There are organisms going up your nose as you read this.

On a more seroius note, no. Radical are extremely reactive and won't last long enough to get up your nose. The vast majority of radicals will be produced inside your body, and they won't exist for long before they react with something.


I came across this, but my eyes started to go funny after a few paragraphs. No, really.
http://www.dsrf.co.uk/Reading_material/Free_radicals/freerads2.htm

From the science point of view, that's not actually too bad. The only problem is the scaremongering at the start. Yes, there are thousands of free radicals in your body at any moment, but it really doesn't matter that much. We have evolved to live with it, and as long as you eat a sensible diet, free radicals are something you never have to worry about. The claim that most diseases are caused by free radicals is simply not true.

[Janot]

http://www.dsrf.co.uk/Reading_material/Free_radicals/freerads2.htmIs there any particular reason why this issue is discussed by the dsrf ?

[LeQue]

We have evolved to live with it, and as long as you eat a sensible diet, free radicals are something you never have to worry about. The claim that most diseases are caused by free radicals is simply not true.

This sentence is hard for me to follow. What makes a sensible diet in your mind and are you suggesting eating sensibly to avoid free radicals? If so, you are in fact worrying about them and trying to decrease your intake and I assume prevent ...something? Some disease maybe? ;D

Here is a wikipedia entry for Free Radical Theory in regards to biological damage that I found half interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-radical_theory

[Mongrel]

This sentence is hard for me to follow. What makes a sensible diet in your mind and are you suggesting eating sensibly to avoid free radicals? If so, you are in fact worrying about them and trying to decrease your intake and I assume prevent ...something? Some disease maybe? ;D

Here is a wikipedia entry for Free Radical Theory in regards to biological damage that I found half interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-radical_theory

I just tend to look at who's pushing the theory, how hard and what do the proper scientists say.
Lab work - mostly inconclusive, some interesting data points.
Who's pushing - cosmetics manufacturers, fad dieticians and supplement manufacturers
How hard - settled down a bit but couldn't get away from it a couple of years ago.

[LeQue]

Yes, and that is wise of you to do so Mongrel. The wiki entry points out some of those inconclusive things.

[Cuddles]

This sentence is hard for me to follow. What makes a sensible diet in your mind and are you suggesting eating sensibly to avoid free radicals? If so, you are in fact worrying about them and trying to decrease your intake and I assume prevent ...something? Some disease maybe?

No, I'm not worrying about them. Neither am I worrying about vitamin deficiencies, cholestrol, fat, or anything else. If you eat a sensible diet, none of these things are a problem. Same for free radicals. If you stuff yourself with junk food and never touch fruit or vegetables, then no doubt free radicals will cause damage, at the same time as your arteries get clogged up and you get rickets and scurvy. The claim that most diseases are caused by free radicals is just as silly as claiming that most diseases are caused by vitamin C deficiency.

[SKIRRID5]

FarSide of the Moon - that was a very interesting point you made about your brother thinking the sports companies knew more than you. I believe this used to be called the Appeal to Mere Authority. Someone is famous, rich, successful, so they must be pretty damn smart, and wouldn't be taken in by pseudo-science. I once had an argument about the old youth-restoring treatments, probably "monkey glands". The other guy, in effect, said that the famous people who tried them wouldn't do so if the treatments were nonsense. He didn't mention him (probably hadn't heard of him!), but I believe Somerset Maugham tried these treatments, which didn't stop him from becoming senile. The point is, if someone made himself a millionaire manufacturing cotton reels, then he knows about business deals and money, and about cotton reels. He doesn't necessarily know a damn thing about science. Or, as Randi points out, a scientist knows about science, but probably not about conjuring tricks.

[LeQue]

No, I'm not worrying about them. Neither am I worrying about vitamin deficiencies, cholestrol, fat, or anything else. If you eat a sensible diet, none of these things are a problem. Same for free radicals.

But you are taking it into consideration, along with cholesterol and fat, if you eat a certain diet to avoid worrying about them. This is what makes up your "sensible" diet I assume.


If you stuff yourself with junk food and never touch fruit or vegetables, then no doubt free radicals will cause damage
Ok. Your earlier post seemed to advise action to avoid free radicals and dismiss them at the same time, but I understand you now.



The claim that most diseases are caused by free radicals is just as silly as claiming that most diseases are caused by vitamin C deficiency.
Yes I agree.

[Cuddles]

But you are taking it into consideration, along with cholesterol and fat, if you eat a certain diet to avoid worrying about them.

Nope. The fact that the food I like also happens to be what is recommended as a sensible diet is just a happy coincidence. Life's too short to bother worrying about anything.

[bindeweede]

Life's too short to bother worrying about anything.
Well, as someone who tends to be a worrier, I need to take your words to heart.

Happy Christmas, by the way:smiley:.

[Blue Wode]

Here’s another short segment on chiropractic from Penn & Teller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMv4OMF1uw8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMv4OMF1uw8)
It’s pretty damning about chiropractic neck manipulation, chiropractic for children, and chiropractic sales tactics.

And just to illustrate how wacky some chiros can be, here’s one ‘adjusting’ a rabbit for jaw problems using some sort of chiro drill-gun device:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOT5z4aSjQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOT5z4aSjQg)
Altogether now, “Run, rabbit, run, rabbit, run, run, run… “

[Janot]

Is this the right thread? I am arging with someone on another forum about whether magnets can be used to decalcify water.

1) Any comments on that? This bloke claimed that his magnet units stopped limescale appearing on water pipes. They provide a 90-day money-back guarantee and claims that in 15 years, only one person has claimed it. (Mind you, he might have sold only 2)

2) Any comments on this (http://sound-ideas.info/index.html) link which he seemed to think provided evidence that his magnetic devices acually worked?

[Matt]

2) Any comments on this (http://sound-ideas.info/index.html) link which he seemed to think provided evidence that his magnetic devices acually worked?

I guess its not beyond the realms of possibility that a magnetic field might keep limescale in from dropping out of the water however I can't think of a mechanism whereby this might happen. The idea that it conditions water so that the limescale doesn't form outside of the magnetic field seems more than a little far fetched.

I note a quote from here (http://sound-ideas.info/5.html) that:-



Magnetic conditioning devices
The UK Drinking Water Inspectorate says
“Some of these devices have been shown to be effective in reducing the amount of fur or scale that actually sticks to pipes or heating elements. They do not soften water. However, not all products on the market give satisfactory performance. You are advised not to buy one of these devices unless the supplier will agree to a sale or return, subject to satisfactory performance.”


And can confirm that there does appear to be such an organisation and it has a gov.uk domain name. What's more it does even say...



Magnetic and Electrical conditioning devices
Some of these devices have been shown to be effective in reducing the amount of fur or scale that actually sticks to pipes or heating elements. They do not soften water. However, not all products on the market give satisfactory performance. You are advised not to buy one of these devices unless the supplier will agree to a sale or return, subject to satisfactory performance.


No further citations given on this. I note that the DWI include Electrical conditioning devices. I can imagine an electrical device using electrolysis to soften water. Or even a standard ion exchange water softener which uses electronics for timing and valve release. It's quite possible that in grouping plausible electircal devices with less plausible magnetic devices the DWI has opened the door to magnetic devices claiming some undeserved legitimacy.

The drinking water inspectorate do have this advice for prospective purchasors of water softeners.



If you do decide to have a water softener we advise that you buy it from a reputable supplier, for example, one which is a member of British Water (http://www.britishwater.co.uk/), and have it installed by a qualified plumber who is a member of a recognised Trade Association, such as the Institute of Plumbing. We also advise that you maintain it in accordance with the supplier's instructions.


It was on the british water site that I found this (http://www.britishwater.co.uk/Data/Global/File/Fact%20Sheet%203.pdf)


Magnetic devices use a magnetic field to initiate needle-shaped crystal formation and are suitable for protection of individual appliances, the effect is not long lasting

It appears that certian Magnetic Devices are in use with tacit approval from Britsh Water as recommended by your friendly neighbourhood government.

The important thing abut this is that it does provide a mechanism by which the conditioning works.

Suddenly this becomes more plausible.

I can't speak for any individual device but it certainly seem possible that some magnetic devices might have some limited beneficial effect in protecting against limescale buildup.

I admit I was highly dubious when I started investigating this but changed my mind when presented with authoratative evidence of a plausible mechanism. Yet another example why we skeptics should not be accused of being closed minded.

[bobdezon]

I know hard water contains trace amounts of magnesium but as far as I know magnesium is not magnetic. Limescale on pipes is mainly calcium carbonate/bicarbonate, also non magnetic. How would magnets effect water quality, I dont understand?

[Matt]

I know hard water contains trace amounts of magnesium but as far as I know magnesium is not magnetic. Limescale on pipes is mainly calcium carbonate/bicarbonate, also non magnetic. How would magnets effect water quality, I dont understand?

Neither Calcium not Magnesium are ferromagnetic, they may however exhibit paramagnetic traits.

Calcium carbonate will precipitate out of hard water. This can cause limescale. Alternatively the crystals could precipitate floating in the water, not attached to the pipes.

The theory is that precipitating many minicule calcium carbonate crystals within the water rather than the on pipes surface conditions the water.

This means that later precipitaiton is likely to form arround these seed crystals rather than on the pipe's surface. These crystals are held within the water flow or if they do attach to the pipe's surface froms a looser weaker structure than would otherwise form within the pipe.

British water suggest that the effect is short term and suitable only for the protection of single appliances.

There appears to be lots of science (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-10%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=precipitation+of+calcium+carbonate+crystals+due+ to+a+magnetic+field)examining the theory but I can only read the abstracts without subscription

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0104-66322000000100011&script=sci_arttext

Seems to provide some experimental data. I can't say I've looked at it in detail.

[ZERO]

Water contains a whole host of elements and compounds in solution.
While they are usually at low levels, perhaps there could be one or more acting as a catalyst for the observed effects.

[bobdezon]

Thanks matt, I did not consider paramagnetism as an influence for this process. However I have no data on exactly how magnesium or calcium would be affected by this outside field. Where are all our godamn physicists? ;D

HALP!

[Janot]

My argument on another forum was with a bloke called reikiman, who is interested at the moment in various kinds of energy. (Physicists have no need to comment here) So my prejudice kicked in and assumed that everything he said was woo, and everything he sold was woo as well, including magnetic devices to reduce limescale.

I have always had an open mind about these devices because it is just possible that they work. The evidence is hard to find, because of course they don't actually soften the water, so measuring the effect is difficult. I can't get the above link to work, by the way.

[Matt]

My argument on another forum was with a bloke called reikiman, who is interested at the moment in various kinds of energy. (Physicists have no need to comment here) So my prejudice kicked in and assumed that everything he said was woo, and everything he sold was woo as well, including magnetic devices to reduce limescale.

I have always had an open mind about these devices because it is just possible that they work. The evidence is hard to find, because of course they don't actually soften the water, so measuring the effect is difficult. I can't get the above link to work, by the way.

Yes it's an easy trap to fall into.

I too was extremely dubious until I found a plausible mechanism explained and then discovered scientific research on the phenomenon in use.

I've just checked all the links on this thread and they seem ok this end.

Which link are you having trouble with?

[Janot]

Which link are you having trouble with?
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...pt=sci_arttext (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0104-66322000000100011&script=sci_arttext) tells me can't find web page. My prejudice was reinforced by the link given in post 17 above to a site quoting the benefits of magnets in healing. Only a small section of that site was related to water magnets. What do you think of the site?