Nina Knowland, spiritual healer

[Julia]

Where would the woos be without lazy journalists? The Wiltshire Times has come up with a totally uncritical article (ie "free advert") for one Nina Knowland, a spiritual healer who is seeking children with cystic fibrosis to "benefit" from her skills. A look at her website - www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/ (http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/) - reveals that not only is she a New Age crackpot peddling worthless therapy, she claims to have successfully treated many illnesses including cancer. Isn't it illegal to make this claim in the UK? >:-) >:-)

[MischiefMonkey]

Indeed, Reginald Gill (http://www.poole.gov.uk/news/rss/ref:5F10EBDB2E3440/) was convicted of fraud for making such claims. Gill is a particularly evil example of 'healers', persuading his victim, Stephen Hall, to stop taking his morphine. It is possible that with proper treatment he could have lived months, with Gill's IFAS machine and diet/supplements he only lived weeks. Of course it is entirely possible that Hall would not lived any longer with conventional treatment, but at least he would have had a chance.

John Vernon is another person caught using the IFAS machine to cure cancer. Unfourtunately I don't think he was prosecuted, though he was exposed by the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/south/series5/cancer_cure.shtml)

As for Ms Knowland, she does indeed claim to have successfully treated cancer. However she also points out that she offers no guarantee. A fine line.

[Julia]

Apparently it's illegal to advertise or offer a cancer treatment - there does not need to be any mention of a cure, although Knowland also claims to have "successfully treated" cancer - what is a successful treatment if not a cure? Thanks to Mojo of the JREF forum for drawing my attention to the actual wording of the Cancer Act:

"Prohibition of certain advertisements.
— (1) No person shall take any part in the publication of any advertisement—
(a)
containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof."

In my opinion Knowland is breaking the law.

[vbloke]

Is it just me, or is part of that url (moonfruit) particularly apt?

[Mojo]

Thanks to Mojo of the JREF forum...


And here! You're welcome!

[Cuddles]

Apparently it's illegal to advertise or offer a cancer treatment - there does not need to be any mention of a cure, although Knowland also claims to have "successfully treated" cancer - what is a successful treatment if not a cure? Thanks to Mojo of the JREF forum for drawing my attention to the actual wording of the Cancer Act:

"Prohibition of certain advertisements.
— (1) No person shall take any part in the publication of any advertisement—
(a)
containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof."

In my opinion Knowland is breaking the law.

Does she claim that she can treat it? Or just that she has treated it? If the latter, she's technically not offering anything, just saying what she has done in the past and therefore isn't breaking the law. On the other hand, plenty of people claim to treat cancer in violation of the law and nothing is ever done about it, so there's no reason to expect it to be any different this time?

[dee]

Where would the woos be without lazy journalists? The Wiltshire Times has come up with a totally uncritical article (ie "free advert") for one Nina Knowland, a spiritual healer who is seeking children with cystic fibrosis to "benefit" from her skills. A look at her website - www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/ (http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/) - reveals that not only is she a New Age crackpot peddling worthless therapy, she claims to have successfully treated many illnesses including cancer. Isn't it illegal to make this claim in the UK? >:-) >:-)

If you read on one of her pages at the bottom there is this disclaimer:

Nina: No doctor will tell you everyone can be cured, there are no guarantee's, I can't do this either, I can say I have a high success rate when I have been able to.

Erm so what's the point of her claiming to have 'cured' all these people then? What a load of old twaddle, I'd sooner go to a qualified doctor who at least has access to the latest treatments than to someone who makes ridiculous claims that cannot be true and yet still substantiates those claims.

[Mongrel]

Where would the woos be without lazy journalists? The Wiltshire Times has come up with a totally uncritical article (ie "free advert") for one Nina Knowland, a spiritual healer who is seeking children with cystic fibrosis to "benefit" from her skills. A look at her website - www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/ (http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/) - reveals that not only is she a New Age crackpot peddling worthless therapy, she claims to have successfully treated many illnesses including cancer. Isn't it illegal to make this claim in the UK? >:-) >:-)

Julia - do you have more information please?

I've just had a word with my Sister-in-law who works for the Cystic Fibrosis Trust (http://www.cftrust.org.uk/) and she'd be interested in getting this looked into

[Julia]

And here! You're welcome!

Oops - memo to self: MUST PAY MORE ATTENTION ! :-[

Mongrel, I haven't got any more info but I've already e-mailed the CFT about Knowland. I don't expect an answer for quite some time, but perhaps your sister-in-law could speed things up a bit. It infuriates me to think of Knowland giving false hope to parents of CF children. I've also e-mailed Cancer Research about Knowland's claims and asked for more details about the Cancer Act.

[Julia]

Nina Knowland or one of her fans must lurk on sceptical forums - she has removed cancer from her list of "successfully treated" illnesses. :smiley:

[seren]

Look at that list though! So many people not protected by law! I wonder what Arthritis Care, the British Rheumatology Society, Asthma UK, RNIB, Back Care etc etc, would say about this?

Healing broken bones? That's a testable claim- a potential JREF prize-winner?

[Julia]

I've had a brief reply from the Wiltshire Trading Standards Authority thanking me for bringing Knowland's claims to their attention - more info as and when it becomes available.

Yes, I wondered about her claim to have "successfully treated" broken bones. Since Knowland already has a media presence (thanks to the Wiltshire Times!) it does sound as if she's a potential JREF claimant.

[seren]

Totally irrelevant: every time I see this thread title I think "Nina No-no".

[Julia]

Meercat of BadPsychics has an excellent article about Knowland here:

http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=603

Nina's spiritual mentors include Sai Baba, John of God, Steven Turoff and not-really-a-doctor Gillian McKeith. She also links to Sylvia Browne's site. The thought of this crackpot laying her "healing hands" on vulnerable people absolutely sickens me. >:-) >:-)

[fruitfly]

Nina Knowland or one of her fans must lurk on sceptical forums - she has removed cancer from her list of "successfully treated" illnesses. :smiley:

She must be rattled - it's now "alleviated" rather than treated, and the button on the left has changed from "Conditions Treated" to "Conditions".

http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/

See Bad Psychics link on previous post for original screen shot

[seren]

Anybody care to follow this up?



My Healing success is such that I am part of a Research Study by Professor Archie E Roy and Tricia J Robertson who work from the University of Glasgow. They have both interviewed and taken video's of my Clients and read their testimonies.

Her testimonials are amazing. She should be a millionnaire by now with skills like that. Can you imagine the difference she could make in the world if she taught other people her skills? Debilitating conditions could be wiped off the face of the planet. Why isn't she out in Africa healing poor people right now?


The night before I was due to go to Musgrove Hospital for the removal of my eye, I went to see Nina (my angel) a Spiritual Healer at her Odyssey Healing Centre, she performed healing on me, she said I wouldn't lose my eye, when I went to Musgrove preparing for the worst, the Surgeon couldn't understand how much the pressure had gone down and he even asked a colleague for a second opinion as the retina had fused together... which apparently doesn't happen. I didn't have to have my eye removed. My belief is if it wasn't for Nina I would have lost my eye.



TESTIMONIALS FROM CLIENTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

Is this for our benefit? ;D
They speak about how desperate people will believe anything if it makes them feel better.

[Julia]

I've e-mailed Professor Roy about this. For more about him and Tricia J Robertson have a look at this: http://www.sspr.org.uk/Activities.html

[Julia]

I sent the following e-mail to Professor Roy and Tricia J Robertson:

" I would be interested to have your opinion of the following statement which appears on the website of "spiritual healer" Nina Knowland (http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/ (http://www.point-of-light.moonfruit.com/))

Originally Posted by Nina's website My Healing success is such that I am part of a Research Study by Professor Archie E Roy and Tricia J Robertson who work from the University of Glasgow. They have both interviewed and taken video's of my Clients and read their testimonies.

The extraordinary claims made by Ms Knowland recently brought her to the attention of the BadPsychics website (http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=603 (http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=603)). She has since modified some of her claims, most notably that of successfully treating cancer, but I am curious as to the nature of her involvement with the University of Glasgow.

Many thanks,

Julia D Atkinson"

I have received the following replies from Ms Robertson, which I quote with her permission:

"Nina is indeed taking part in a research study, which is in its infancy. So far the results are encouraging enough to pursue the study for perhaps another year or so. The results will eventually be published.
There are always people who have strong opinions about certain people, but it is usually found that they know very little about then or have studied them at all.

Tricia Robertson"

and:

"I should have said that this has nothing to do with the University of Glasgow. It is a project under the auspices of an organisation called Prism. ( London Based)Both Archie and I have a link with Glasgow Uni - but nothing to do with this project.

I have chastised her for her use of words on the site.

Tricia"

[seren]

Nice one Julia!

So basically the researchers are pretty much believers as far as I can tell, right? I mean, they even use the phrase "open minded skeptic" on their site!

[Julia]

And isn't it absolutely typical that Roy and Robertson, despite having worked with Knowland for some time, don't seem to have taken the trouble to look at her websites? This is a woman who was breaking the law by claiming to have "successfully treated" cancer and misrepresenting her involvement with Glasgow University - and it took sceptics to point this out. I'll bet this particular rat is having no trouble in running whatever experiments are being carried out by the SSPR! ::)

[bobdezon]

And isn't it absolutely typical that Roy and Robertson, despite having worked with Knowland for some time, don't seem to have taken the trouble to look at her websites?

They dont seem to have taken a look at "reality" either. ::)

[Julia]

Oh, and Bobdezon informs me that Robertson claims to be psychic herself. I think the results of Knowland's "tests" will be a foregone conclusion, don't you? ::)

[dalriada]

They dont seem to have taken a look at "reality" either. ::)


Is there something about parapsychological research and those parapsychy circles which does tend to lead to people (some of whom may be very bright and have decent careers behind them) becoming more and more creduluous and more and more sloppy about the way they do things? Serious question- I think parapsychology is a perfectly legitimate field of research and its something I'm interested in, but it does appear that starting off with an interest, leads to getting sucked into a belief and then to the inability to distinguish fact from fiction. Over the years there have been some very fine minds involved in psychical research- not all of them have benefited from the association- but fine minds nevertheless, however as this thread has shown some of the most recent activity going on in certain institutions at the moment is utter nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that.

Is there a point where universities should draw a line on what is acceptable? Where should that line fall?

[bobdezon]

Oh I dont know, I know some very intelligent parapsychologists who do not tend to grasp at straws. It seems the brighter ones tend to be looking for psychological causes to reported phenomena, rather than sitting about in the dark with a ouija board and a thermos.

[dalriada]

Unfortunately there are also similar intelligent psychology personages who have taken the left hand path of thermos, compass and well-worn meejums and are also not averse to teaching in university departments which will accept doctoral candidates without degrees and even fund very dubious personal crusades to develop and promote 'powers' of mediumship, distant mental influence and healing.


:undecided:

[Cuddles]

Is there something about parapsychological research and those parapsychy circles which does tend to lead to people (some of whom may be very bright and have decent careers behind them) becoming more and more creduluous and more and more sloppy about the way they do things?

I don't know that the research makes them more credulous, I think that that kind of research just tends to attract credulous people. Sure, there are some, like Dr B, who go into it for other reasons, but I think the vast majority of people do so because they already believe and want to prove it. Since someone with a scientific, skeptical mind is unlikely to be a believer, this neccessarily means that most researchers in this area will not be good scientists, and this is nicely demonstrated by the amazing lack of good science, even in cases where there isn't deliberate fraud.

[Gazza]

What a negative bunch you lot are! I do know Nina as a previous neighbour of mine and my partner went to visit her as the result of excessive pain she has experienced, especially since a doctor (allegedly highly experienced surgeon - his nickname was "Butcher" amoung the Doctors and Nurses) mucked up operations on her after a very serious car accident. Neither of us had high expectations but we both felt she could do no harm (well certainly not as much as the medical profession has!). The effect that Nina's healing had on my partner was nothing short of miraculous. For example, on a simple problem Doctors had been faffing about regarding gall stones, one of which had grown to the size of a golfball. After Nina's tratment (for which she only charged £60) the scans showed the gall stones had gone. Nina also treated my Partner's serious period pains (I can vouch for the result of those!) within this treatment and my partner has been almost cured of these. My partner is an ex-nursing sister and knows her subject. She only had to give up after the medical profession failed to deal with her problems. How much would a Doctor charge just to remove gall stones - a bit more than 60 quid I think! Why don't more of these overpaid and underworked quacks (a GP earns on average £80-£100K per annum) go to Africa and treat people for free on secondment (these opportunities are available - my partner did it about 10 years ago)? It is a great pity that people are bad mouthing people such as Gina on this site. I have noted from another site (badpsychics) that at the top of their major donors list is a Doctor! Whilst I fully accept that when it comes to basic problems requiring pills and butchery, Doctors have their place and I am thankful for what many Doctors have done for me and my family. However, I would encourage Doctors and those of you casting unfounded aspersions on this and other sites to have a more open minded view. Then maybe people such as Nina would be able to earn a living from their skills and treat more people.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

What a negative bunch you lot are! I do know Nina as a previous neighbour of mine and my partner went to visit her as the result of excessive pain she has experienced, especially since a doctor (allegedly highly experienced surgeon - his nickname was "Butcher" amoung the Doctors and Nurses) mucked up operations on her after a very serious car accident. Neither of us had high expectations but we both felt she could do no harm (well certainly not as much as the medical profession has!). The effect that Nina's healing had on my partner was nothing short of miraculous. For example, on a simple problem Doctors had been faffing about regarding gall stones, one of which had grown to the size of a golfball. After Nina's tratment (for which she only charged £60) the scans showed the gall stones had gone. Nina also treated my Partner's serious period pains (I can vouch for the result of those!) within this treatment and my partner has been almost cured of these. My partner is an ex-nursing sister and knows her subject. She only had to give up after the medical profession failed to deal with her problems. How much would a Doctor charge just to remove gall stones - a bit more than 60 quid I think! Why don't more of these overpaid and underworked quacks (a GP earns on average £80-£100K per annum) go to Africa and treat people for free on secondment (these opportunities are available - my partner did it about 10 years ago)? It is a great pity that people are bad mouthing people such as Gina on this site. I have noted from another site (badpsychics) that at the top of their major donors list is a Doctor! Whilst I fully accept that when it comes to basic problems requiring pills and butchery, Doctors have their place and I am thankful for what many Doctors have done for me and my family. However, I would encourage Doctors and those of you casting unfounded aspersions on this and other sites to have a more open minded view. Then maybe people such as Nina would be able to earn a living from their skills and treat more people.

You realise if she could prove any of this, she wouldn't need to work? She could claim Randi's million dollars and also would be at the forefront of a revolution in medicine and treatment. She would make untold millions from this.

So why doesn't she?

[Fiona]

Even if she is not interested in money, taking the challenge and winning would end all doubt and would also open the way for more research and perhaps improvements to her and others' skills. This would be of great benefit not only to people in this country but world wide. Better than a few medical personnel being seconded to those countries probably.

So why doesn't she?

[seren]

Has the spiritual surgeon been directing people here then? How brave.


Why don't more of these overpaid and underworked quacks (a GP earns on average £80-£100K per annum) go to Africa and treat people for free on secondment (these opportunities are available - my partner did it about 10 years ago)?

Why doesn't Nina?


It is a great pity that people are bad mouthing people such as Gina on this site.

Nobody has badmouthed Gina. I don't know who this Gina is.
Know her well, do you?

[MischiefMonkey]

Spontanious remission of gallstones

"RESULTS: Of the 1000 patients studied, 532 had evidence of stones in the common bile duct at some time prior to cholecystectomy. At the time of operation, only 142 patients had bile duct stones. By implication, 80%, 84%, 93% and 55% of patients presenting with pancreatitis, colic, cholecystitis and jaundice (73% overall) had passed their bile duct stones spontaneously. All 4 patients with cholangitis had duct stones at the time of operation. CONCLUSIONS: It is likely that most bile duct stones (3 in 4) pass spontaneously, especially after pancreatitis, biliary colic and cholecystitis but less commonly after jaundice. Cholangitis appears to be always associated with the presence of duct stones at the time of operation.” [5]"

Link (http://www.clinicalanswers.nhs.uk/index.cfm?question=6003)

As for post operative pain (or indeed, any type of pain) this does tend to get better after time as the body heals.

Period pain can be affected by a lot of things, including diet.

In addition, a lot of pain can be psychologically affected. So with pain, a non-medical intervention can give positive results. Putting a sticking plaster on a child's grazed knee has no therapeutic effect but can stop the tears.

You do inadvertantly raise one of my main bug-bears with the CAM brigade. Unlike the GPs and surgeons you chastise, CAM healers (for the most part) are not legally obliged to undergo any training. Nor are there governing bodies that can apply sanctions to them. They don't need to be registered nor carry insurance. They tend not to make promises of healing - in fact IIRC Nina (or is it 'Gina'????) Knowland specifically says she can't guarantee success. Thus indemnifying herself should a dissatisfied customer attempt to sue her. Often (I'm not saying it is the case with Ms Knowland) if you fail to get better, it is your fault for not believing enough or for 'wanting' to be ill.

Where Ms Knowland seems particularly odious is in her (now retracted) claims to 'treat' cancer and other life threatening illnesses. Fleecing the terminally ill and desperate is despicable.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Julia you are using the excuse that people like Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion who I know of both are out to take money off people with no result. why do you constantly have to attack people who are honestly helping other's. Julia there is a deeper meaning to this, what are your fears of good people like the list in Bad Pychics which you also contribute to under another name. Why do you have to hide behind groups like UK Skeptics? and Bad Psychics. What has happened to you you make you so sceptic of other's. Like attracts like and you are attracted to likeminded people who will be your downfall.

Try to learn to pray and meditate to find true peace in your life and happiness. Then you would not look for this sort of negative time wasting.

How do you spend what is left of your day? who do you help change their lives? after you have wasted so much time writing such nonsense.

I would think if they all joined forces together they would have a very good liable and slander case against you. I hope that doesn't put any idea's in their heads.

I have distributed your link around the world to other interesting sites of a spiriual level and asked them to pray for you that whatever your fear of good is caused by will be taken away from you so that you can be at peace within your self. Once you have Peace and are happy within you will move on to greater things, GOD BLESS YOU JULIA. Love and Light xx

[Admin]

Julia you are using the excuse that people like Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion who I know of both are out to take money off people with no result.

Well that's basically true. Isn't it Nina? ;)

It's rather dishonest - a bit like coming onto a forum and trying to defend your disgusting 'profession' by pretending to be someone else.

Taking money from people dying of cancer in return for 'psychic surgery' is just about as low as a human being can stoop. That's what you do Nina, so don't expect to be treated with any respect on here.

And BTW, exposing charlatans like you is of positive value. Expect to hear more from us in the near future.

[ZERO]

I'm glad someone edited spiritual sugeons post , that was the first post I have seen here that made me angry.
Shows their level.

[Admin]

Nina Knowland (Spiritual Surgeon) can be found here: http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=603

[seren]

I have never seen a post so unutterably pompous, condesecending and cowardly as that just provided by Spiritual Surgeon/Nina Knowland.

You don't know what we do. You don't know how we help other people, what our jobs are, what causes we support, volunteering we do. Yet you come here under a false name (coward) and make moral judgements about us.

You charge £30 per treatment. You make money from sick people. If you were so morally perfect, if you really were a healer like Jesus, would you not be sharing your gift for free?

That's the difference between you and Julia, I suspect, and definitely the difference between you and me. Had I your marvellous gift, I would have long ago made it available to the millions of people crying out for healing in the world. How can you sleep at night knowing that they're out there, and you could help them? It would be so easy to let people know of your gift and be sent on mercy missions around the world.

Yet you don't. I submit that it is YOU who needs praying for, because when God sees you have profited from your gift by targeting rich people in the developed world and charging for your services rather than sharing it with those in most need, I suspect he's going to be slightly annoyed.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

May you all experience many Blessings today..

Namaste

[DrS]

... time wasting.

... asked them to pray for you You've seen the links on the "effectiveness" of the power of prayer, I presume. :cheesy:

[Spiritual Surgeon]

I have returned the favour and added you to my site.

Bless you all with Love and Light.

Namaste

[DrS]

Is this the site where you list your qualifications as:

Nina Knowland - Healing Practitioner
I have been Healing on and off for 22 years:-
I trained under Tony and Margaret Payne, Glastonbury at the N.F.S.H (National Federation of Spiritual Healers) the largest healing organisation in the UK.

I attended courses between March and December 2000
Gaining my Certificate 1.2.3 & 4

Counselling Skills Module 1
Counselling Skills Module 2
Certificate in working with special needs ChildrenFunny, I only see academically recognized qualifications in a couple of counselling modules and working with special needs children. Not medicine. And I would have thought that the NHS was the "largest healing organisation in the UK".

[Admin]

I have returned the favour and added you to my site.

Cheers.

Your potential customers will no doubt be interested to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_surgery


Psychic surgery has been condemned in many countries as a form of medical fraud. It has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax", and the American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care

Not only is what you do fraudulent, it is potentially life-threatening to those people who could be saved by real treatment.


In 1990, the American Cancer Society stated that it found no evidence that "psychic surgery" results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition, and strongly urged individuals who are ill not to seek treatment by psychic surgery

I think the message is clear - anyone who uses the 'services' of psychic surgeons like Nina Knowland or Gary Mannion is not only being bilked out of their money; they could also be risking their lives.

[bindeweede]

And from Skepdic. I don't think this is a duplicate.

psychic "surgery"

Psychic "surgery" is a type of non-surgery performed by a non-medical healer. The healer fakes an incision by running a finger along the patient's body, apparently going through the skin without using any surgical instruments. The healer pretends to dig his hands into the patient's innards and pretends to pull out 'tumors'. Using trickery, the healer squirts animal blood from a hand-held balloon while discarding items such as chicken livers and hearts. The patient then goes home to die, if he or she was really dying, or to live if there was nothing seriously wrong in the first place.

Psychic "surgery" is big business around the world, but especially in the Philippines and Brazil, where "healers" like Alex Orbito (http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/new-age-path/spiritual-healing/psychicsurgery.asp) and Laurence Cacteng (http://www.therapies.com/surgery/) ply their trade. Tony Agpaoa put psychic "surgery" on the map in Manila, where there are now several hundred practicing psychic "surgeons", many working out of hotels. In 1967, Agpaoa was indicted for fraud in the United States. He jumped bail and went home, forfeiting a $25,000 bond.

Some people find solace in psychic "surgeons" and other faith healers (http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html) because they think the healers are divine agents. The practice is not restricted to third-world countries. Chris Cole (http://www.internationalholistictherapiesdirectories.com/whatispsychicsurgery.htm) practices psychic "surgery" in Sydney, Australia. One of the more popular psychic "surgeons" outside of the Philippines is Stephen Turoff (http://www.xs4all.nl/~douven/inner.journey/disclaimer.htm), who runs the Danbury Healing Clinic in Chelmsford, England. Turoff, a follower of Sai Baba (http://skepdic.com/saibaba.html), performs therapeutic touch (http://skepdic.com/tt.html) at no extra charge. Turoff also takes his show on the road. A Dutch group called Inner Journey (http://www.xs4all.nl/~douven/inner.journey/turoff_enq10.htm) reports on a weekend with Turoff where at least four people out of about 250 wrote two weeks after their visit to say they were healed.

Turoff has been performing for a quarter of a century and is popular enough to warrant a biographer, Grant Solomon. In 1998, Solomon published Stephen Turoff - Psychic Surgeon: The Story of an Extraordinary Healer. A revised edition appeared in 1999 with the extraordinary and remarkable revised title of Stephen Turoff, Psychic Surgeon: The Extraordinary Story of a Remarkable Healer. According to www.Natural-Healing.co.uk (http://www.Natural-Healing.co.uk), Turoff is "a 16-stone, six-and-a-half foot, middle-aged, Jewish-Christian former carpenter from Brick Lane in London's East End whom many believe to be an instrument of God." To others (http://skepdic.com/comments/psurgcom.html), Turoff is just another pious fraud (http://skepdic.com/piousfraud.html). Nevertheless, the popularity of psychic "surgery" seems to be growing, despite the debunking work of people like James Randi.

Psychic dentistry is also available for those who prefer dentistry without anesthesia or dental drills performed by a faith healer. "Willard Fuller has supposedly healed more than 40,000 people since he began practicing in 1960. Those who flock to his healing ministry claim his magic touch can fill cavities, make bad teeth whole again, and even produce a new set of teeth in some elderly patients" (Nava). Many patients are afraid to admit they've been defrauded because that would imply that they lack true faith. According to George Nava True II who operates the "only Philippine skeptical website to challenge the claims of alternative healers, psychics, and other quacks," psychic dentistry "has never been demonstrated under controlled laboratory conditions and most practitioners are simply sleight-of-hand artists who can't produce a shred of proof of their alleged powers." For those who have faith, proof is not needed.
further reading

reader comments (http://skepdic.com/comments/psurgcom.html) Barrett, Stephen and William T. Jarvis. eds. The Health Robbers: A Close Look at Quackery in America (Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1993). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879758554/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Barrett, Stephen and Kurt Butler (eds.) A Consumer's Guide to Alternative Medicine: A Close Look at Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Faith-Healing, and Other Unconventional Treatments; edited by (Buffalo, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1992). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879757337/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Brenneman, Richard J. Deadly Blessings : Faith Healing on Trial (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1990). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879755806/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Christopher, Milbourne. (1975). Mediums, Mystics & the Occult. Thomas Y. Crowell Co. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0690004761/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Fuller, John G. Arigo: Surgeon of the Rusty Knife (Devin-Adair Pub. 1975). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0815950209/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Maki, Masao. In Search of Brazil's Quantum Surgeon: The Dr. Fritz Phenomenon (Cadence Books 1998). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1569312974/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Randi, James. The Faith Healers (Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879755350/roberttoddcarrolA/)

Randi, James. Flim-Flam! (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books,1982), chapter 9. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879751983/roberttoddcarrolA/)
Raso, Jack. "Alternative" Healthcare: A Comprehensive Guide (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1994). (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879758910/roberttoddcarrolA/)

[Julia]

Nina, John discovered your identity a couple of days ago and with his permission to use this information I 'outed' you on BadPsychics yesterday:

http://moh2005.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=medpsy&action=display&thread=1199286581

Evidently you didn't read it or you wouldn't have posted as 'Spiritual Surgeon' AGAIN!

'Julia you are using the excuse that people like Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion who I know of both are out to take money off people with no result.'

Your grammar here leaves something to be desired. Are you really saying what I think you're saying? That Nina Knowland is 'out to take money off people with no result', and so is Gary Mannion - the man you recently supported on this thread, for which purpose you created the sock puppet 'Spiritual Surgeon' in the first place?

Spare me your blessings, Nina. You stand condemned out of your own mouth as a liar and a coward. Thanks to your initial exposure on BadPsychics you've already had to tone down some of the outrageous claims you made on your website, and I can assure you that we'll be watching every move you make in 2008.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Blessings Julia

And how have you been feeling today with all the Love and Light we having been sending to you from around the Globe?

We will carry on praying for your soul's redemption. God Bless you.

You truly are an amazing woman. I hope to meet you one day.

Love Light and Peace to you

[Civilised Worm]

This record appears to be stuck.

[Hayley]

Blessings Julia

And how have you been feeling today with all the Love and Light we having been sending to you from around the Globe?

We will carry on praying for your soul's redemption. God Bless you.



Hi Nina,

I hardly see why you are being so hard on Julia, afterall it was I who initially brought your website and claims to the attention of the badpsychics website, not Julia.


You truly are an amazing woman. I hope to meet you one day.


Well you have more chance of bumping into me actually as I live locally to you. Wouldn't that just be magic.::)

[meercat]

Hayley could not be more correct, and it was myself who did the article for Badpsychics on your fraudulent claims Nina (thank you for posting the link again John, its appreciated). I find it extremely comical the way you post on her under another name saying you 'know' yourself. Comical, but at the same time very sad that a person has to sink as low as yourself to 'get by' in life. Have you not considered an honest job?

Is it laziness that stops you working for a living or are you genuinely an all out con merchant? Unfortunately, reading your posts on here I fear it is the latter. You will appreciate that your 'blessings' fall on deaf ears on sites such as these. It serves only to make you sound even more pathetic than I know you to be. Its thanks to sites such as these that whenever someone types 'Nina Knowland' into Google, they find out exactly who they are dealing with.

I give my heartfelt congratulations to all here who have treated Nina with a great deal more respect than she could ever deserve, personally I would have had a hard time biting my tongue reading the clap-trap she's come out with on here. It really is a credit to the site.

Meercat

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Hello Hayley

Well that would be lovely, could we arrange to have a meeting soon? I think we have a lot we could talk about.

I don't know why you didn't come to see me when you read the advert in the first place, I could introduce you to my Clients.

Love and Light

[meercat]

I could introduce you to my Clients.

Love and Light

I wouldn't mind meeting the ones you claim to have cured of cancer, mind you, I'd like their Dr's there as well, and probably someone from Trading Standards.......

[Hayley]

Nina I contacted you on two occasions after reading the paper and you did not respond at all, I hardly believe you would meet someone in person.

Which clients would you introduce me to? the children suffering with cystic fibrosis or the adults suffering with terminal cancer?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Love and Light = bollocks.

It's now completely official when scumbags like this use it so easily.

[Julia]

'How have I been feeling today'? Well, pretty much as I'd expect to feel with or without a barrage of love and light flowing in my direction. I have bronchitis and an eye infection but both are responding well to conventional medical treatment - needless to say it would never have crossed my mind to seek any other kind.

Nina, like Gary Mannion and every other person we've crossed swords with you don't seem to understand that, by themselves, testimonials are worthless. They have no evidential value. It doesn't matter whether we read that Patient X of Salisbury was miraculously cured of terminal cancer or hear his/her testimony in person, we have to know that:

a) Patient X really was suffering from cancer in the first place
b) his/her cancer was not of a type that is known to undergo spontaneous remission
c) Patient X had been in the care of doctors before your treatment and was found to be without cancerous tumours afterwards.

By the way, do you ever wonder what happens to your patients after you've supposedly cured them? Because you may have read on BadPsychics that Andrew McKellar, who gives the impression of being a man after your own heart, is still claiming on his website to have cured Mr Phil Hurst of cancer. Mr Hurst died of cancer on 25th October 2006.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

'How have I been feeling today'? Well, pretty much as I'd expect to feel with or without a barrage of love and light flowing in my direction. I have bronchitis and an eye infection but both are responding well to conventional medical treatment - needless to say it would never have crossed my mind to seek any other kind.

Nina, like Gary Mannion and every other person we've crossed swords with you don't seem to understand that, by themselves, testimonials are worthless. They have no evidential value. It doesn't matter whether we read that Patient X of Salisbury was miraculously cured of terminal cancer or hear his/her testimony in person, we have to know that:

a) Patient X really was suffering from cancer in the first place
b) his/her cancer was not of a type that is known to undergo spontaneous remission
c) Patient X had been in the care of doctors before your treatment and was found to be without cancerous tumours afterwards.

d) the testimony has not been fabricated

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Hello Hayley

Why wouldn't I meet you, I meet Clients all the time. If you have tried to get in touch with me before I don't know how you did that, If you want to arrange a meeting that will be fine.

When is it convenient for you?

Love & Light

[seren]

Please stop saying Namaste. You're not Hindu, or even Indian, and your "healing" has nothing to do with either. Here's another nice Hindi saying for you that even little children know: jhooth mat bolo.

[Hayley]

I don't want to meet you and have never claimed that I have, I just stated you would be more likely to see me than Julia which was fitting as it was I that brought your sick claims to the attention of others.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Hayley you said, "I would hardly believe you would meet someone in person".

And I'm saying if you have anything to say to me you can say it to my face.

You said you tried to get in touch with me, and now I am offering to meet you, what are you frightened of?

It's easier to make comments about someone when you're hiding behind a Skeptic site. I will say what I have to say to your face.

Where do you want to meet me?

[fallible]

Hi, Nina. I was just looking through the qualifications that you listed and I noticed you have among them 'Counselling Skills Module 1' and 'Counselling Skills Module 2'. Could you tell me a bit more about these please?

[Cuddles]

You said you tried to get in touch with me, and now I am offering to meet you, what are you frightened of?

It's easier to make comments about someone when you're hiding behind a Skeptic site. I will say what I have to say to your face.

Says the person hiding behind a pretend name who even pretended to know herself until called out on who she actually was. Don't bother trying to claim any kind of moral high ground, you'll just make yourself look even more pathetic than you do already.

[bindeweede]

Hi, Nina. I was just looking through the qualifications that you listed and I noticed you have among them 'Counselling Skills Module 1' and 'Counselling Skills Module 2'. Could you tell me a bit more about these please?

Fallible,

I wonder if Nina's qualifications will be mentioned in this list of accredited counselling courses. I have a feeling.......................

http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/job-roles/qualifications/Counsellor+qualifications.seo.aspx

[bindeweede]

I also came across this, from www.innerway.org (http://www.innerway.org)

If you are in private practice you will be aware of the unsatisfactory situation of completely unqualified ‘practitioners' offering counselling and psychotherapy, perfectly legally. Much of the public is unaware of this. Even if people are aware of the need to ask for qualifications they, understandably, find them extremely confusing. Many health professionals wishing to refer are also confused.

There are various points of view for and against regulation of the profession. According to our latest information from HPC, it is now scheduled for 2009, although unlikely to be in place for some time after that. In the meantime, the general public remains unprotected and the profession falls into disrepute from bogus practitioners, with misleading letters and logos who are marketing in the same arena.

[fallible]

Yes - I know a little about the subject so I was just curious as to what these modules entail. I do hope Nina gets back to me.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Nina I contacted you on two occasions after reading the paper and you did not respond at all, I hardly believe you would meet someone in person.

Which clients would you introduce me to? the children suffering with cystic fibrosis or the adults suffering with terminal cancer?

I have the emails now Hayley from *****@*****.*** I didn't realise that was you!!

I have spoken to several clients about you and they would like to meet and speak to you in person.

[fallible]

Hi, Nina. Would you be able to answer my question? Thanks.

[MischiefMonkey]

Nina, poor form posting Hayley's email and full name on a public board.

But you already knew that didn't you?

I'm not sure how much more disgusted at your behaviour I can get.

[ZERO]

Such hypocrisy, love and light, yeah right. What a bottom feeder.>:-)

Just googled the Fraudulent Mediums Act, it seems applicable in this case.
Is it under utilized?

[siestatime]

So much for Love and Light ...

AFAIK, noone on this forum would divulge private details about another person, no matter how much their personal opinions differed.

Just another difference between skeptics and believers.

[meercat]

It certainly shows the true level of Nina's mentality and regardless of her use of 'love & light' exactly what sort of person she is. I think its time I did a follow-up article on you Nina.

[bindeweede]

Hi, Nina. Would you be able to answer my question? Thanks.

I hope you aren't holding your breath.:-[

[fallible]

Luckily, I decided against it. I admit to being slightly disappointed, because Nina has been online for a while now, and let's face it, I'm being perfectly civil, and surely it's a simple enough thing to write a few lines about a couple of 'modules'. I won't give up just yet.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Nina, poor form posting Hayley's email and full name on a public board.

But you already knew that didn't you?

I'm not sure how much more disgusted at your behaviour I can get.

If she does not want people to know who she is, why did she put it in her public profile for all to see!!

If she is going to make defamatory statements, I should have the right to reply.

[fallible]

Hi Nina! Could you tell me a bit about the counselling modules you have listed as qualifications? Thanks.

[Fiona]

If she does not want people to know who she is, why did she put it in her public profile for all to see!!

If she is going to make defamatory statements, I should have the right to reply.

Exactly how does posting someone's details amount to a reply?

You really are despicable, aren't you ?

[ZERO]

I have spoken to several clients about you and they would like to meet and speak to you in person.
I might be a bit thick, but does this seem threatening to anyone.

[Civilised Worm]

Er, Hayley's email address is in her profile, it's hardly posting personal information for SS to repeat it here.

[MischiefMonkey]

If she does not want people to know who she is, why did she put it in her public profile for all to see!!

If she is going to make defamatory statements, I should have the right to reply.

Her email is there, but not her last name.

How are her statements defamatory? What has she said about you that is untrue?

Why do you need to give her full name to exercise your 'right' of reply?

Where is the light and love? You lot pronounce it, but rarely practice it.

Did someone say bottom-feeder? Got that right.

Are your tax returns in order Nina? Will your advertising and 'services' stand up to scrutiny under the changes to the Trading Standards laws coming into force in April?

[Civilised Worm]

Her full name is in her blog which is linked in her profile.

[MischiefMonkey]

I might be a bit thick, but does this seem threatening to anyone.

Personally, no. To be fair. Any meeting would be at the mutual satisfaction of both parties.

I would be willing to meet our Nina. Though I wouldn't make a special trip TBH. I'm next in Somerset in late Feb Nina. Want to go for lunch?

[bindeweede]

Hi, Nina. Would you be able to answer my question? Thanks.

Is she evading your questions, do you think?:undecided:

[Fiona]

I have the emails now Hayley from *****@*****.*** I didn't realise that was you!!

I have spoken to several clients about you and they would like to meet and speak to you in person.

I do not think the source is the issue really, Civilised. I may be missing the point but I cannot see any purpose in the post I quoted, unless Zero is right. If it is anything other than " we know where you live" I cannot see it.

[meercat]

Her full name is in her blog which is linked in her profile.
Fair comment, but I think a 'I received your emails" would have sufficed from Nina, I'm presuming she thought she was being clever.
I bet Gary Mannion is cursing the day Nina 'stuck up for him', it must do his credibility wonders with supporters such as her.... with friends like that, who needs enemies...

[MischiefMonkey]

Her full name is in her blog which is linked in her profile.

But why post it?

Let others delve. Let others do their own investigation. But why when challenged post personal info rather than a robust defense?

[fallible]

Hmmm bindeweede, I'm sure she wouldn't do that....would she? Sadly think I'm going to be left to make of her silence what I will, and what I make of it is not altogether positive. Still, I live in hope.

[Civilised Worm]

Fair comment, but I think a 'I received your emails" would have sufficed from Nina, I'm presuming she thought she was being clever.

Agreed, I just think people are overreacting a tad.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

Her 2 email's Hayley sent to me which I have kept are defamatory.

Yes my tax returns are dealt with by my Accountant.

And yes I have been in touch with Trading Standards to get their views, which Julia will know, she was asked to remove the lady at the Trading Standards name from the skeptic site.

No I have nothing to fear about the law if it is passed in April.
Show me where I advertise to give Counselling or call myself a Counsellor.

[meercat]

Her 2 email's Hayley sent to me which I have kept are defamatory.


Oh dear... An email can't be defamatory, deformation of character can only happen in a public environment.

[fallible]

Show me where I advertise to give Counselling or call myself a Counsellor.


Thanks for (kind of) answering, Nina. Why did you list counselling 'qualifications' unless you wished to give the impression that you have the skills to counsel people?

Sadly, I can't see the information I asked for in your post, but your defensive response has certainly made me think about things.

Lastly, are you aware that genuine qualified counsellors are specifically advised against advertising their qualifications in such a manner in the BACP Code of Ethics?

Nina is not a qualified counsellor, in case anyone was wondering, as she herself (sort of) states above. In order to truthfully refer to yourself as such, you must undergo a series of accredited courses, ending in a Diploma. It is my guess that the highest of her 'modules' may equate to the 10 week taster course often taken by those wishing to familiarise themselves with basic concepts.

Edit: that's one evening (3 hours) a week for 10 weeks, by the way. Or 30 hours.

[meercat]

You never learn do you Nina? Just had another look at your site. Are you STILL not aware of the Cancer Act 1939? Posting a 'testimonial' is the same as advertising what you can do:


I was diagnosed with secondary bone cancer of the breast bone and upper spine following a bone scan early 2005. The scan showed spots of bone cancer, the sternum showed a deeper/solid block.

I was recommended to see Nina by a colleague of my husband working in Staverton. I had my first appointment in October 2006, following several treatments I had a further bone scan in January 07. The bone scan showed that the sternum had less density of the cancer.

It is my opinion that Nina's healing helped achieve this result, I feel everytime I have had a treatment it has made my condition, less painful and much easier to live with. G TOMKINSON, LYNEHAM, WILTSHIRE
Remove it, or be reported.

[Spiritual Surgeon]

There are other issues here that you obviously are not aware of as it is a local matter, the case is being dealt with by the local police, I will be passing on the information I now have thanks to your site. I cannot make any more comment's, I have been advised not to do so.

In case you are wondering it has nothing to do with my Healing.

[bindeweede]

Nina is not a qualified counsellor, in case anyone was wondering, as she herself (sort of) states above. In order to truthfully refer to yourself as such, you must undergo a series of accredited courses, ending in a Diploma. It is my guess that the highest of her 'modules' may equate to the 10 week taster course often taken by those wishing to familiarise themselves with basic concepts.

Edit: that's one evening (3 hours) a week for 10 weeks, by the way. Or 30 hours.

Fallible,

Thanks for your post. I fear she is just another con-artist, deceiving the gullible and credulous. Just like our Gary. I nearly did one of those taster courses. I didn't, but I could always claim I did and fake a certificate.

The woman is vile.

[MischiefMonkey]

Her 2 email's Hayley sent to me which I have kept are defamatory.

Yes my tax returns are dealt with by my Accountant.

And yes I have been in touch with Trading Standards to get their views, which Julia will know, she was asked to remove the lady at the Trading Standards name from the skeptic site.

No I have nothing to fear about the law if it is passed in April.
Show me where I advertise to give Counselling or call myself a Counsellor.

Who the F mentioned counseling? Apart from your professed qualification.

If Hayley's private emails contain untruths about you then as the emails are private, they are not legally defamation. You do know the legal definition of defamation don't you? Surely you wouldn't bandy about legal terms without knowledge?

Glad your taxes are in order. Bit of a bug bear of mine because I hate filling out the blooming forms.

As for nothing to fear, you do realise the burden after April will be on you to prove your claims don't you? Of course you have theat old catch all that you can't guarantee success, but surely you can offer percentages?

I have mentioned in another thread my vet. She could not guarantee success treating my eldest cat. But she could back up her claim of 98% surviving the surgery he had (which he survived) and over 80% surviving 2 weeks+ post operatively (which he didn't). In addition to her own statistics, there were comparable and verifiable statistics from other vets and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. What independently verifiable statistics can you provide to back up your claims?

And why exactly have you removed from your website your claim to successfully treat cancer?

[fallible]

Sadly anyone at all can call themselves a counsellor, although hopefully that will change in the future. I sincerely hope that Nina does not operate in this area, because it is a real danger that those who are under-qualified can cause an awful lot of damage. Even if the intentions are good, the whole area of looking into another's anxieties, worries and distress is a minefield unless you've been properly trained.

[meercat]

There are other issues here that you obviously are not aware of as it is a local matter, the case is being dealt with by the local police, I will be passing on the information I now have thanks to your site. I cannot make any more comment's, I have been advised not to do so.

In case you are wondering it has nothing to do with my Healing.
Its a shame you didn't receive that advice until now....

[DrS]

Pls delete ... posted in error.

[Julia]

Julia you are using the excuse that people like Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion who I know of both are out to take money off people with no result.


Nina, you obviously wrote this when you were under the false impression that nobody knew your real identity. Does it really mean what it appears to mean or is it an example of your poor grammatical skills? I want to be perfectly sure about this because you've never made yourself clear. Were you trying to say - through your sock puppet 'Spiritual Surgeon' -

'Julia, I know Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion and they are both out to take money off people with no result, but don't tar us all with the same brush'.

Did you really think we have such short memories that we've already forgotten your fulsome support for Gary Mannion? Were you really reduced to libelling YOURSELF in a pathetic effort to hide your true identity?

And in reply to some of the points raised in your nauseatingly sanctimonious post, I DO have a lot of time of my hands at the moment and I'm delighted to spend as much of it as possible exposing people like you. There's nothing 'negative' about it. Do you think the police are being 'negative' when they go after people who steal from pensioners and the mentally disabled? Because that's the level of society where you belong, Nina. You make your living - if that's the correct term - by preying on people who are sick, poorly educated or plain gullible.

I hope I make myself clear.

[tkingdoll]

Er, Hayley's email address is in her profile, it's hardly posting personal information for SS to repeat it here.

Well, let's let Hayley have control over where her email address and name appears. It's the polite thing to do.

[Hayley]

The email/s i sent to Nina challenged what she was advertising in the Wiltshire Times (i.e asking parents of children with cystic fibrosis to step forwards to let her try her healing on their ill children.)

I don't have a copy as it is sent via an online form on a website, but i definetely do not remember writing anything that could be classed as defamation.

[seren]

Who the F mentioned counseling? Apart from your professed qualification.

To be fair Spindlegreede did post the below quote:


If you are in private practice you will be aware of the unsatisfactory situation of completely unqualified ‘practitioners' offering counselling and psychotherapy, perfectly legally. Much of the public is unaware of this. Even if people are aware of the need to ask for qualifications they, understandably, find them extremely confusing. Many health professionals wishing to refer are also confused.

And there was a short discussion on whether Nina does this. She says she doesn't. Her website doesn't say that she does. Which just makes me wonder why she mentions having counselling qualifications at all?

[DrS]

And even then, I'm not convinced that a couple of modules (which, as fallible said in post 87 above, are likely just to be a foundation course) equate to a "qualification".

[Matt]

Such hypocrisy, love and light, yeah right. What a bottom feeder.>:-)

Just googled the Fraudulent Mediums Act, it seems applicable in this case.
Is it under utilized?

Under the existing Fraudulent Mediums Act prosecutions can only be made by the DPP. You'll have seen in this thread mention of changes in trading Standards laws. These are intededd to repeal and replace the Fraudulent Mediums Act. The following is a response to a petition demanding greater use of the Fraudulent Mediums Act...

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page13563.asp

A thread discussing this is here...

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=880

The most important difference here is that procesuction can now be brought in the Civil courts. It should hopefully be easier to reprort and force a procesution.

I do note that this si an Implementation of Europe Wide legislation and wonder if it could extend to the selling of indulgences at Lourdes...

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=21164&postcount=8

[ZERO]

Under the existing Fraudulent Mediums Act prosecutions can only be made by the DPP. You'll have seen in this thread mention of changes in trading Standards laws. These are intededd to repeal and replace the Fraudulent Mediums Act. The following is a response to a petition demanding greater use of the Fraudulent Mediums Act...

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page13563.asp

A thread discussing this is here...

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=880

The most important difference here is that procesuction can now be brought in the Civil courts. It should hopefully be easier to reprort and force a procesution.

I do note that this si an Implementation of Europe Wide legislation and wonder if it could extend to the selling of indulgences at Lourdes...

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=21164&postcount=8

Thank you Matt.
Let's hope the new legislation is used to its fullest.

As for indulgences, ;D what a court case that would be.

[Julia]

Nina, you obviously wrote this when you were under the false impression that nobody knew your real identity. Does it really mean what it appears to mean or is it an example of your poor grammatical skills? I want to be perfectly sure about this because you've never made yourself clear. Were you trying to say - through your sock puppet 'Spiritual Surgeon' -

'Julia, I know Nina Knowland and Gary Mannion and they are both out to take money off people with no result, but don't tar us all with the same brush'.

Did you really think we have such short memories that we've already forgotten your fulsome support for Gary Mannion? Were you really reduced to libelling YOURSELF in a pathetic effort to hide your true identity?

And in reply to some of the points raised in your nauseatingly sanctimonious post, I DO have a lot of time of my hands at the moment and I'm delighted to spend as much of it as possible exposing people like you. There's nothing 'negative' about it. Do you think the police are being 'negative' when they go after people who steal from pensioners and the mentally disabled? Because that's the level of society where you belong, Nina. You make your living - if that's the correct term - by preying on people who are sick, poorly educated or plain gullible.

I hope I make myself clear.

I've just re-read Nina's post and must apologise for misunderstanding the bolded quote, although in my own defence I have to say that she isn't the clearest of writers. Not that pretending to be someone else isn't deceitful and cowardly, of course, and my reply to the witless and patronising comments she made elsewhere in that same post still stand.

And you'd better make the most of that apology from an a nasty old sceptic, Nina, because I doubt if you'll be getting another one. ;)

[MischiefMonkey]

To be fair Spindlegreede did post the below quote:



And there was a short discussion on whether Nina does this. She says she doesn't. Her website doesn't say that she does. Which just makes me wonder why she mentions having counselling qualifications at all?

In the mist of my rant-a-thon I missed that:-[ Sorry.

[fallible]

And even then, I'm not convinced that a couple of modules (which, as fallible said in post 87 above, are likely just to be a foundation course) equate to a "qualification".


In order to pass ABC Level II in Counselling Concepts - I'm guessing that's what she's talking about - one must write a very brief (roughly 800 words, if my memory serves me correctly) essay on how the course has made you think. You get a certificate, which by itself it is worth precisely nothing. You can even go straight onto the first proper (year-long) counselling course without having done this module.

[DrS]

Then it's roughly equivalent to the first two Access modules that form part of the pre-foundation course for humanities. They're "how to study" and "how to use a keyboard" pretty much. ;)

[fallible]

That would appear to be the size of it. ::)

[Julia]

This sounds very much like the counselling course my late upstairs neighbour claimed he was doing. At least that's what he told the judge shortly before being evicted after a decade of violent and threatening behaviour. ::)

[fallible]

;D It's very easy to get on. You have to send in an application form stating your reasons for wanting to do the course and why you think you should be given a place. You must give one reference. The pre-acceptance interview goes something like this -

Q. Are you currently depressed?

A. No.

Q Are you currently taking anti depressant medication?

A. No.

Q. Do you have a criminal record? You might still be OK to do the course but we need to check what kind of conviction you have.

A. No.

'Welcome aboard!'

[Julia]

Well, if we're talking about the same 'qualification' my neighbour must have lied about his criminal record (at least three prison sentences). He was also taking umpteen kinds of prescription drugs plus heroin, which eventually shuffled him off this mortal coil.

[fallible]

Oopsie.

[seren]

Oooh- can we get a medium to call him up (or whatever they do) and tell us what the course involved?

[Julia]

Actually I'd prefer to leave him where he is. The last thing he said to me before I got a restraining order against him was 'I'm gonna smash your f****** face in'.

He would have made a lovely counsellor. :cheesy:

[fallible]

A perfect example of how 'Counselling Skills Module II' means absolutely feck all.

[seren]

Julia that must have been awful but I'm afraid I laughed, because I can just imagine the medium saying "He says he's happy...that he's at peace, and he wishes you a lot of love. He's saying something about your face...?"

Sorry. :-[

[Julia]

Julia that must have been awful but I'm afraid I laughed, because I can just imagine the medium saying "He says he's happy...that he's at peace, and he wishes you a lot of love. He's saying something about your face...?"

Sorry. :-[

;D ;D

'I sense something about flowers...'

Incredible! He did pour bleach in my window-box and smash up my sweetpea trellis! :shocked:

[Mongrel]

;D ;D

'I sense something about flowers...'

Incredible! He did pour bleach in my window-box and smash up my sweetpea trellis! :shocked:
Not very bright then :tongue: Salt works better and doesn't smell

[Julia]

Bright enough to be accepted as a mature student at the local university...to study psychology! >:-)

[Janot]

Bright enough to be accepted as a mature student at the local university...to study psychology! >:-)But he had a vocabulary of at least 7 words, had a vague concept of a future tense, and could distinguish between himself and his environment. This more than enough to be accepted as a mature student, isn't it?

[Hayley]

But he had a vocabulary of at least 7 words, had a vague concept of a future tense, and could distinguish between himself and his environment. This more than enough to be accepted as a mature student, isn't it?

;D

[Julia]

Yes, this sort of thing makes me proud to have non-graduated from the University of Life. :smiley:

[Julia]

I'm all agog to hear more about Nina's latest response to her exposure here and on BadPsychics - apparently she has claimed that there has been some mysterious 'police involvement at a local level' not connected to her healing abilities or lack thereof. What CAN she be referring to? :cheesy:

It could of course be an excuse to explain her disappearance from the forums or maybe it was just a childish threat.

[Hayley]

http://www.odyssey.moonfruit.com/skepticssites/4526534120

Could have used a half decent picture of me Nina ;D

[bindeweede]

This is a screenshot of her website (thanks to forum member Dippy) prior to being ‘found out’
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2306/nina1kl8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)


But, as you know, she DID claim she had successfully treated cancer, as this, from BadPsychics indicates.

It suggests she has a problem with the truth. Although "successfully treated" isn't the same as "cured", I suppose. The let-out for tricksters.

From http://moh2005.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=homeo&action=display&thread=1195785406

[Hayley]

Well that proves even further how untruthful she is. Not that we needed further proof

[Pebble]

Hayley, congratulations you clearly are irritating the woos

Your link to Odssey Healing Centre, contains an interesting challenge from Nina:

'Unless you can PROVE and have EVIDENCE to confirm what you are saying, kindly keep your opinions to yourself...'

Presumably this means that in her world she can prove what she does works and that the articles where she is alleged to have claimed to treat cancer have been modified by others to create this impression.

This parallel universe is clearly one where REAL PROOF is found in testimonials, and where objective evidence is mere hearsay.

[bindeweede]

Wouldn't it be a benefit to the world if the claims of this woman could be genuinely tested, and everyone could find out what she can or cannot do?

[Julia]

Someone should explain to Nina - in words of one syllable and with pictures, if necessary - that she is the one making extraordinary claims, therefore she should be able to produce extraordinary evidence. By toning down the claims made on her website she has admitted that they were, to put it mildly, misleading. It's interesting to note that Gary Mannion has also altered the wording on his sites after getting some unwelcome publicity here and on BadPsychics, proof that sceptics can made a dent in the edifice of woo. I'm sure both Nina and Gary must be aware that we will be keeping an eye on everything they do from now on.

And I still smile when I think of Nina's hilarious attempt at sock puppetry! :smiley:

[dalriada]

It suggests she has a problem with the truth. Although "successfully treated" isn't the same as "cured", I suppose. The let-out for tricksters.
[/URL]

It's not really a let-out though..Section 4 of the Cancer Act 1939 provides that with some exceptions (such as publishing in technical journals, providing info to registered medical practitioners, pharmacists etc ) it is an offence for a person to take part in the publication of any advertisement containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, to prescribe a remedy for it or to give any advice in connection with the treatment of it.

Sooo...publishing advertising claims (and I think Nina’s website arguably comes under that definition) to ‘treat’ cancer, ‘prescribe remedy’ or give ‘any advice in connection with the treatment of it’ is just as illegal as claiming to ‘cure' it. Also, even if someone (an oncologist or surgeon) can cure cancer, they are still not allowed to advertise it in a way which contravenes the Act.

Nina's not out of the woods yet.

Does anybody have any info on how often prosecutions are made under the Cancer Act? I know it doesn't happen often, but could anything be done to change this? Woo-merchants get to make wild claims unchallenged and yet the very real work that medical professionals do to fight cancer must be so much more restrained in what can publicised....

[bindeweede]

Dalriada,

Thanks for that. Nina has removed "cancer" from the list of conditions she can treat. Actually, her site now merely list conditions she has "successfully alleviated", according to BadPsychics.

http://moh2005.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=homeo&action=display&thread=1200781200&page=2

[bindeweede]

Nina: No doctor will tell you everyone can be cured, there are no guarantee's, I can't do this either, I can say I have a high success rate when I have been able to.

From Nina's site. Does this make sense?

Also from Nina's site...
As well as Spiritual Healing I am also able to practise as a Spiritual Surgery Practitioner. This started in 1999 during my Helaing work at the Odyssey Healing Centre in Burnham-on-Sea.

I'm wondering if this is the same as "Psychic Surgery" as performed by Gary Mannion.

More...
I trained under Tony and Margaret Payne, Glastonbury at the N.F.S.H (National Federation of Spiritual Healers) the largest healing organisation in the UK.

I wonder where that leaves the NHS.

[bindeweede]

I wonder if Nina offers "Etheric Spiritual Surgery", as described here..

http://www.centre-of-serenity.com/Etheric_Spiritual_Surgery.htm


"Techniques conventionally used in a hospital by surgeons can also be used by Spirit Surgeons. But they also make full use of colour energy, lasers & "hi tech" equipment, which we have yet to discover".

I don't think I'd let one of these people anywhere near me with a laser, or anything else, really.

[Julia]

You can now hear Nina doing her thing on a Podcast:

http://www.thisiswesterndailypress.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=229793&command=newPage

First it was the Wiltshire Times, then then the Wiltshire Guardian, now the Western Daily Press is whoring after woo-woos. It must be lovely having the local media queue up to give you free publicity, but it's funny how a psychic's ludicrous claims are newsworthy but exposure of that same psychic's lies generally isn't. >:-)

[filippo lippi]

Exposure = work for a journalist and a one-time story

Far easier to have the woo write the story for you over and over again.

[Cuddles]

I don't think I'd let one of these people anywhere near me with a laser, or anything else, really.

How exactly do they use equipment, hi-tech or otherwise, that they haven't discovered yet?

[Julia]

Bump for this thread, since Nina is up to her old tricks of a)lying about the people who are "studying" her abilities, and b)using testimonials from cancer patients.

[bindeweede]

Well, as Nina is one of the founders of the "UUPS", whose membership has rocketed from the original 3 to, erm 2, I hope I am not duplicating anything by quoting...


We have a list of Psychic Healer's/Surgeon's who are taking part in research by Professor Archie E Roy and Tricia Robertson carrying out Psychical Research Study of Paranormal Healing but for reasons of negative attack from Sceptics preserve anonymity.I think I get the message......

http://www.ukpsychicsurgeons.org.uk/?Find_A_Psychic_Surgeon

[Trinoc]

Clearly the answer is that in future we should always attack positively ...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I've said before, but the best way to refute an attack is to come back with a winning argument or proof of what you can do.

What they are really saying, is leave us alone to go and indulge in our little fantasy world with not interference. And don't keep reminding us of that thing called reality.