Creationism in Education

[bindeweede]

There is an interesting statement from the Council of Europe.

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta07/ERES1580.htm

[bobdezon]

Yeah, they have a list of valid concerns. Its a good listing of the errors in allowing it to become mainstream.

[SKIRRID5]

Didn't Tony Blair (remember him?) defend the setting up of a school teaching creationism on the usual weaselly grounds of "diversity"? We're constantly told this country isn't turning out enough science-educated people. The universities must know about these schools. Would a university want to accept someone to read for a geology degree if they knew that person was educated at a school which taught the world is a few thousand years old, and geology is a lie?
Actually, of course, the world was made by Slartibartfast.

[filippo lippi]

TB said he'd be concerned about creationism if it were to become believed by the majority, but then he needed religious businessmen to bankroll his "academies."

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Ah, this Tony Blair? From the far too recent Benightedment?
http://newhumanist.org.uk/605

' One senior member of staff explained that "a Christian teacher of biology will not or should not regard the theory of evolution as axiomatic, but will oppose it." Blair is determined to build more 'faith-based schools', of course, and the news strengthened the misgivings of those who suspect that such academies proselytise rather than educate.

He had his chance to allay their fears in the House of Commons on 13 March last year, when Jenny Tonge MP asked if the prime minister was "happy to allow the teaching of creationism alongside Darwin's theory of evolution in state schools." A simple 'no' was surely the only possible answer; but it was not the answer he gave. Blair told Jenny Tonge that the creationists at Emmanuel College were doing a splendid job. "In the end," he said, "a more diverse school system will deliver better results for our children."

A few Labour backbenchers gawped in amazement as the significance of his remark sank in. Here was the leader of a supposedly secular, progressive government who, on being invited to assert that probable truth is preferable to palpable falsehood, pointedly refused to seize the opportunity —and indeed justified the teaching of bad science in the name of "diversity".'

[ZERO]

What a great document. Every policy maker in the world should be presented with something similar.

People talk about human rights.
Shouldn't children have the right to learn the truth.
Let them choose to be creationists when they are old enough to decide for themselves, knowing all the facts.

Creationism is the thin edge of the wedge. Those who have the power to affect change can allow no appeasement.

[MischiefMonkey]

Going on in an infant school near you.

Rather than teaching Creationism/ID along side evolution in a science lesson, or all creation stories as myth/RE, at my son's school they teach only the classic creation story. After my complaints the huge mural of the creation story covering one wall of the classroom now has the caption "Christians believe...."

This is a non-faith state school.

At this time of year the 'de-programming' is almost nightly. School's shouldn't be allowed to brainwash four/five/six year olds.

[JJM]

In the USA, there is a creationist movie (Expelled) that is being "screened" before general release. The producers interviewed Richard Dawkins, and our own PZ Myers, under false pretenses. Last night it was shown near Myers' home and he was singled out and banned from seeing it. However, his guest (one R. Dawkins) was unrecognized and allowed in. Dawkins report on the movie will be interesting, as will the producers' response to the double gaffe (expelling one, but not the other).

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php

[Fiona]

Yay for Europe!!

[Pebble]

Going on in an infant school near you.

Rather than teaching Creationism/ID along side evolution in a science lesson, or all creation stories as myth/RE, at my son's school they teach only the classic creation story. After my complaints the huge mural of the creation story covering one wall of the classroom now has the caption "Christians believe...."

This is a non-faith state school.

At this time of year the 'de-programming' is almost nightly. School's shouldn't be allowed to brainwash four/five/six year olds.

Does anyone know if ERES1580 has been signed up to by the UK gov? If so the teaching of creationism could be contestable!

[Mongrel]

In the USA, there is a creationist movie (Expelled) that is being "screened" before general release. The producers interviewed Richard Dawkins, and our own PZ Myers, under false pretenses. Last night it was shown near Myers' home and he was singled out and banned from seeing it. However, his guest (one R. Dawkins) was unrecognized and allowed in. Dawkins report on the movie will be interesting, as will the producers' response to the double gaffe (expelling one, but not the other).

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php

Bwahahahahahaha
Rofl

[JJM]

There are quite a few links to the issue of Dawkins seeing the creationist movie Expelled at this forum:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=109409

Just now, it stands at 38 posts. It includes information on the disinformation campaign begun, immediately, on the night of the incident, and a video of Dawkins and Myers discussing it.

[MischiefMonkey]

Does anyone know if ERES1580 has been signed up to by the UK gov? If so the teaching of creationism could be contestable!

When I questioned the head, she said it was part of a RE lesson. I would assume that considering their concession - the 'this is what Christians believe' label - this would be an acceptable defense? Though it did cover an entire bliddy wall and they didn't teach any other creation myth.

And I have to be honest and admit my 'moral high ground' isn't that high as Son told his teacher that the FSM created the world:-[ First the mountains, trees and midgets.:-[ (Long story, not the outcome I'd hoped for and an example in how not to reason with a five/six year old. Give them several different options to think about and they always choose the one with the best pictures)

We are currently dealing with Jesus's 40 days & 40 nights. Again accepted as literal by my six year old::) Better than last easter I suppose when he lectured me that Jesus died for us, and got quite upset about the whole thing.

Would it be very wrong to let a six year old watch Life of Brian?

[Pebble]

Would it be very wrong to let a six year old watch Life of Brian?

I wouldn't think so, I weaned my kids on this sort of thing, and they survived. Has led to more than a little discord with some of their classmates, so need to have a degree of confidence in their ability to be 'outsiders'. Seems unkind at such a tender age at first glance, but in reality the playground is full of such discord, given how firmly entrenched opinions are on all sorts of things (best pokemon etc) at that age.

[SimonC]

And I have to be honest and admit my 'moral high ground' isn't that high as Son told his teacher that the FSM created the world:-[ First the mountains, trees and midgets.:-[ (Long story, not the outcome I'd hoped for and an example in how not to reason with a five/six year old. Give them several different options to think about and they always choose the one with the best pictures)



Heh! My girlfriend's 12 year old lad happily dismisses the bible as a load of rubbish, but he also believes passionately in the Loch Ness Monster "because plesiosaurs are, like, really, really 'wikkid'...".

Argumentum ad Wikkidum, I reckon. ;D

[MischiefMonkey]

Heh! My girlfriend's 12 year old lad happily dismisses the bible as a load of rubbish, but he also believes passionately in the Loch Ness Monster "because plesiosaurs are, like, really, really 'wikkid'...".

Argumentum ad Wikkidum, I reckon. ;D

I thought big bang theory, planetary formation and Darwin would be 'wikkid'. Even drew my own graphics and took Son to the Space centre in Leicester. But no, pasta based religions are way more kewl::);D;D;D

As a bonus, he now eats Spaghetti Bolognaise:smiley:

[SimonC]

I thought big bang theory, planetary formation and Darwin would be 'wikkid'. Even drew my own graphics and took Son to the Space centre in Leicester. But no, pasta based religions are way more kewl::);D;D;D



;D ;D ;D

Well, science is brilliant, of course, but pasta and pirates!!?? - takes a lot to beat the appeal of that!! ;D ;D

[Tomolac]

Would it be very wrong to let a six year old watch Life of Brian?

hell I would say its essential :tongue:
it would be a far better idea to show this in class rooms rather than 'An Inconvenient Truth' :undecided:

[brodski]

Does anyone know if ERES1580 has been signed up to by the UK gov? If so the teaching of creationism could be contestable!

The draft resolution Doc. 11375: The dangers of creationism in education was



adopted unanimously by the Committee on 14 September 2007

Members of the Committee: Mr Jacques Legendre (Chairman), Baroness Hooper, (Alternate: Lord Russell-Johnston), Mr Wolfgang Wodarg, Mrs Anne Brasseur, (Vice-Chairpersons), Mr Hans Ager, Mr Kornél Almássy, Mrs Donka Banović, Mr Lars Barfoed, Mr Rony Bargetze, Mr Lars Bartos, Mrs Marie-Louise Bemelmans-Videc, Mr Radu Mircea Berceanu, Mr Levan Berdzenishvili, Mrs Oksana Bilozir, Mrs Guofinna Bjarnadóttir, Mrs Maria Luisia Boccia, Mrs Margherita Boniver, Mr Ioannis Bougas, Mr Osman Coşkunoğlu, Mr Vlad Cubreacov, Mr Ivica Dačić, Mrs Maria Damanaki, Mr Joseph Debono Grech, Mr Stepan Demirchyan, Mr Ferdinand Devinski, Mrs Åse Gunhild Woie Duesund, Mr Detlef Dzembritzki, Mrs Anke Eymer, Mr Relu Fenechiu, Mrs Blanca Fernández-Capel, Mrs Maria Emelina Fernández-Soriano, Mr Axel Fischer, Mr José Freire Antunes, (Alternate; Mr José Luis Arnaut), Mr Eamon Gilmore, Mr Stefan Glǎvan, Mr Luc Goutry, Mr Vladimir Grachev, Mr Andreas Gross, Mr Jean-Pol Henry, Mr Rafael Huseynov, Mr Fazail Ibrahimli, Mrs Halide İncekara, Mrs Evguenia Jivkova, Mr Morgan Johansson, Mr Ali Rashid Khalil, Mr József Kozma, Mr Jean-Pierre Kucheida, (Alternate; Mr Jean-Marie Geveaux), Mr Markku Laukkanen, Mr Guy Lengagne, Mrs Jagoda Majska-Martinčević, Mrs Milica Marković, Mr Tomasz Markowski, Mr Andrew McIntosh, Mr Ivan Melnikov, Mrs Maria Manuela Melo, Mrs Assunta Meloni, Mr Paskal Milo, Mrs Christine Muttonen, Mrs Miroslava Nĕmcová, Mr Edward O’Hara, Mr Kent Olsson, Mr Andrey Pantev, Mrs Antigoni Pericleous Papadopoulos, Mr Azis Pollozhani, Mrs Majda Potrata, Mr Lluis Maria de Puig, Mr Zbigniew Rau, Mrs Anta Rugāte, Mr Indrek Saar, Mr André Schneider, Mr Urs Schweitzer, Mr Vitaliy Shybko, Mrs Geraldine Smith, Mrs Albertina Soliani, Mr Yury Solonin, Mr Christophe Spiliotis-Saquet, Mr Valeriy Sudarenkov, Mr Petro Symonenko, Mr Mehmet Tekelioğlu, Mr Ed van Thijn, Mr Piotr Wach, Mr Emanuelis Zingeris


Lord Russell-Johnston appears to be the most prominent UK representative (Baroness Hooper- a Tory- didn't attend eth meeting), however Lord Russell-Johnston is a Lib Dem so I'm not sure what the status of the resolution is.

More info here.

[seren]

Where?


I shouldn't worry about kids. I was sent to a roman catholic primary school for reasons of logistics, but despite the regular church-goings and religious indoctrination, and one or two serious attempts to believe, I never did. I have atheist parents who never pushed me one way or the other, they just quietly get on with the business of life and that had much more effect than 7 years of bullcrap from nuns.

Carry On Secularists probably wouldn't make a great movie, but it's good advice I think!

[SimonC]

I'm not sure where else to post this, but this thread seems like as good a place as any.

My girlfriend's lad is impressively intelligent, and I have great, enjoyable conversations with him. Tonight, however, he told me he has learned that "dragons were real", based on a documentary dvd that he watched.

I borrowed the movie, and I am watching it now. It's a 'mockumentary' called "The Last Dragon", published by Discovery Communications Inc. From what I gather, this is part of the Discovery Channel.

The film starts with a cgi scene of fire-breathing dragons squaring-up to a T-Rex, then there is an understated, passing comment in the intro about 'the most amazing species that never existed', before cutting to a scene of a supposed paleontologist in the 'London Museum of Natural Sciences' "noticing scorch marks on the fossilised skull of a T Rex". And so it continues...

The whole thing is narrated and filmed like a real documentary, very much in the style of 'Walking With Dinosaurs'.

So now I have the thankless task of explaining to an imaginative 12 year old lad that this is fiction, not factual documentary. And branding myself a miserable killjoy, by doing so. I hope the idiots that made this piece of crap enjoyed every f*****g penny they gained from their idiocy. >:-)

[bobdezon]

I enjoyed the last dragon tbh (if its the same one Im thinking of, last breeding pair in the mountains etc, killed by vikings or something) Its an entertaining work of "what if" fiction. I dont think It was meant to be taken as a literal account of historical mythological animals.

[SimonC]

I expect it's just me being a grumpy old skeptic then. ;D

[bobdezon]

If it was used as a teaching aid, or presented as factual then I would have to agree with you. Its not like a sceptic to be grumpy now is it? ;D

[ILOVEJESUS]

there seems to be a worrying pusch by the fundamenatlists to force learn ( and in turn indoctrinate into their superstitions) our children who should be taught facts .. not fiction when it comes to science. creative writing is part of the english syllabus. without trying to radicalise i would suggest that anyone that finds out about any of this intellectual poison seeping into their childrens education should fight it with some ferocity and perhaps ( as were all mostly from the uk) use sites like this to drum up in valuable support

[Amaris]

Would it be very wrong to let a six year old watch Life of Brian?

;D Absolutely not...if our schools can't educate the children then we MUST!;) I love that film .... feeling the need to watch it again ..

[Tony Williams]

It appears that US creationists have changed tack again (since their attempt to get "Intelligent Design" accepted as a scientific theory was blocked a couple of years ago) and are now trying to push consideration of creationism using the slogan "teach the controversy!". As the New Scientist put it (9 July):


Instead of trying to prove that ID is science, they have sought to bestow on teachers the right to introduce non-scientific alternatives to evolution under the banner of "academic freedom".

So far, six US states have passed laws allowing the teaching of alternative views in "controversies" such as evolution and climate change.

The creationists are persistent and determined, and not likely to give up - they believe they have God on their side, after all...

It's depressing, but creationists are well-funded and have been sending glossy teaching aids to UK schools as well. Given that only 75% of British people accept the theory of evolution, there is still much work to be done (although admittedly not so much as in the USA, where the figures are roughly 40% each for accept/don't accept evolution, with 20% undecided).

[Matt]

It appears that US creationists have changed tack again (since their attempt to get "Intelligent Design" accepted as a scientific theory was blocked a couple of years ago) and are now trying to push consideration of creationism using the slogan "teach the controversy!".

The phrase I keep hearing is "Strengths and Weaknesses"