searching for an acupuncture clinic...

[caroleb123]

Hello, my name is Carole. I live in London but I don't know well the city because I have been living here since few month. I have painful joints and one of my friends told me that acupuncture could be a solution. He told me about the Hampstead Chiropractic Clinic. Have you ever heard about it?
thanks for your help
Carole

[Matt]

We do know that a recent study showed that "real" acupunture was little or no more effective than sham acupuncture. So really it doesn't matter how well trained they are in the mystical arts of pin cushioning just so long as they're well trained in terms of sterilising needles.

This effect when compared to sham treatment seem reproducable time and again with every complaint for which acupuncture claims to be effective.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504101520.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/26979.php
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/alternat/AT008.html
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/070924/even-sham-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain.htm

The suprising thing is how ineffective conventional treatments are for some complaints.

I wonder if behaviour modification is responsible..

e.g.

Do you have pain?
Yes
OK I'll stick needles in you
Ouch
Do you need me to stick more needles in you
Erm nope I'm all better now.

vs

Do you have pain
Yes
OK I'll give you psychotropic pain killers
Yummy
Do you need more pills
Erm damn right I do!

[bindeweede]

A little while ago, Brianp posted this link. Might be worth a look.....

http://dcscience.net/?p=45

[Mongrel]

Or the OP could just be spam.....

[bobdezon]

Hello carole, I myself have quite painful joints as I was born with arthritis. I do not know eactly what medical condition you have but I would highly recommend anti inflammatories. Your Gp will be able to asses exactly which type is suitable for you (if at all) I can recommend Voltarol (diclofenac sodium).

Accupuncture is based on the psuedoscientific notion that you have channels of energy traversing your body called medians. By placing pins in certain locations you can alter the course of this energy and send it to where it actually needs to be (it is diverted by illness etc)

There is no proof these medians exist, I personally believe that a long time ago some chinese pin maker was made bankrupt and decided to start a new career using his old stock.

The people who swear accupuncture works are either convinced it will work before they try it (based on the idea of how it works) or feel later it has some benefit because of the placebo effect.

[Admin]

Hello, my name is Carole. I live in London but I don't know well the city because I have been living here since few month. I have painful joints and one of my friends told me that acupuncture could be a solution. He told me about the Hampstead Chiropractic Clinic. Have you ever heard about it?
thanks for your help
Carole

I don't know about that particular clinic but acupuncture is acupuncture and if they're offering it they won't be any better than anyone else offering acupuncture.

We often hear of miraculous recovery and amazing cures being attributed to acupuncture but the reality is that acupuncture, at best, only offers mild pain relief (about the same level as taking a couple of ibuprofen) and this is most likely because it's an elaborate placebo intervention than it doing anything real.

So, if you hear of amazing stories about acupuncture they are highly exaggerated or even made up by those with a vested interest. Take them with a pinch of salt.

Personally, I would say that trying acupuncture won't do you any harm but the best you'll get from it is mild pain relief due to placebo effects - it certainly won't cure anything.

I wouldn't waste my money to be honest - especially at a clinic that is likely to have exorbitant prices.

[caroleb123]

Hello everybody! Thanks a lot for your answers! You really helped me because you answered to so much questions I had! :-)
Actually, I think I will try the acupuncture because I don't like to take to much medicines. Of course, I know about the placebo effect but let's try one time! I will contact this clinic in order to know the prices, I hope it won't be to expensive ;) I'll give you news.

Thanks a lot

Carole

[Admin]

It's £50 for the initial consultation and then £45 per treatment thereafter. :shocked:

Sometimes people plant queries on forums pretending to look for help, only to come back later stating how wonderful the treatment was etc., in order to advertise and promote their own ideas or businesses.

I look forward to an honest appraisal from you Carole. O0

[bobdezon]

I once accidentally stabbed someone in school with a needle, I was sent to the headmasters office and recieved detention. I should have charged that bastard £45 ;D

[mahakala]

Hello carole, I myself have quite painful joints as I was born with arthritis. I do not know eactly what medical condition you have but I would highly recommend anti inflammatories. Your Gp will be able to asses exactly which type is suitable for you (if at all) I can recommend Voltarol (diclofenac sodium).

Accupuncture is based on the psuedoscientific notion that you have channels of energy traversing your body called medians. By placing pins in certain locations you can alter the course of this energy and send it to where it actually needs to be (it is diverted by illness etc)

There is no proof these medians exist, I personally believe that a long time ago some chinese pin maker was made bankrupt and decided to start a new career using his old stock.

The people who swear accupuncture works are either convinced it will work before they try it (based on the idea of how it works) or feel later it has some benefit because of the placebo effect.

Actually you are right out of touch with modern theories of accupuncture, as taught in China and elsewhere. While some practitioners still swear by five elements theory or meridian theory, many see accupuncture as a way of invoking a a neuro-chemical response in the body that helps the body repair itself or produce its own set of painkillers.

It appears that what underlies your uninformed view of complimentary medicine is a basic lack of knowledge of theory, that is that the body has an ability to repair itself and complimentary medicine views itself as a catalyst or aid in this process. Obviously that has limitations, but millions of people use it accordingly.

Don't let your arthritis go to your head manjit.

[bobdezon]

Actually you are right out of touch with modern theories of accupuncture, as taught in China and elsewhere. While some practitioners still swear by five elements theory or meridian theory,

This would be your first contradiction of the post then?


many see accupuncture as a way of invoking a a neuro-chemical response in the body that helps the body repair itself or produce its own set of painkillers.

Ah the old Argumentum ad Populum, many people believe it to be true so it must be correct. Honestly why do you even bother waking up in the morning?


It appears that what underlies your uninformed view of complimentary medicine is a basic lack of knowledge of theory,

Again an assumption as to my current level of understanding on a subject, that is the beauty of complimentary medicine. It rarely changes the "science" behind its operation.


that is that the body has an ability to repair itself and complimentary medicine views itself as a catalyst or aid in this process. Obviously that has limitations, but millions of people use it accordingly.

I have no doubt that the body can heal itself to a degree, infact its a biological necessity. Everyone knows a cut will heal if keep clean, its not magic. It matters not what complimentary medicine views itself as, it still doesnt work. A racist may see themselves as a defender of their genetic inhertance, they are still a racist though.


Don't let your arthritis go to your head manjit.

I dont have arthritis of the brain, however it would appear your intellect is somewhat crippled.

[Julia]

Mahakala, I see that you are also defending Christopher Hansard. Is there any type of woo in which you don't believe?

[Admin]

Actually you are right out of touch with modern theories of accupuncture, as taught in China and elsewhere. While some practitioners still swear by five elements theory or meridian theory, many see accupuncture as a way of invoking a a neuro-chemical response in the body that helps the body repair itself or produce its own set of painkillers.

You mean endorphin theory?

That's actually one theory as to how the placebo effect works. It's consistent with the view that acupuncture is a placebo treatment.


It appears that what underlies your uninformed view of complimentary medicine is a basic lack of knowledge of theory, that is that the body has an ability to repair itself and complimentary medicine views itself as a catalyst or aid in this process. Obviously that has limitations, but millions of people use it accordingly.

It's the fact that the body does indeed repair itself that gives rise to one mechanism by which so-called complementary treatments can appear to work.

Of course, there are many more: How ineffective treatments appear to work. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=how_ineffective_treatments_appear_to_work. php)

It's easy to misattribute the cause of healing to a useless treatment when you would get better just as quickly without it.

[mahakala]

This would be your first contradiction of the post then?



Ah the old Argumentum ad Populum, many people believe it to be true so it must be correct. Honestly why do you even bother waking up in the morning?



Again an assumption as to my current level of understanding on a subject, that is the beauty of complimentary medicine. It rarely changes the "science" behind its operation.



I have no doubt that the body can heal itself to a degree, infact its a biological necessity. Everyone knows a cut will heal if keep clean, its not magic. It matters not what complimentary medicine views itself as, it still doesnt work. A racist may see themselves as a defender of their genetic inhertance, they are still a racist though.



I dont have arthritis of the brain, however it would appear your intellect is somewhat crippled.

Hardening of your humanity is more than evident.

[bobdezon]

Hardening of your humanity is more than evident.


If you expect me to understand your reference you would have to define and explain what you mean. How exactly is my "humanity hardened" and in what respect? Or is that yet another off the cuff glib remark that makes sense, only to yourself?

[Cuddles]

Hardening of your humanity is more than evident.

I didn't think this was that kind of forum.^-^

[bobdezon]

I didn't think this was that kind of forum.^-^


Is that a hardening of humanity in your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me? :-\

[mahakala]

If you expect me to understand your reference you would have to define and explain what you mean. How exactly is my "humanity hardened" and in what respect? Or is that yet another off the cuff glib remark that makes sense, only to yourself?

Your ability to belittle others is obviously extremely well honed and flies off the keyboard with ease and intent. That together with your absolute certainty on subjects that are in fact far from certain, i.e., everyone else is wrong and are obviously complete idiots.

[bobdezon]

If you choose to go back over your posts, you will see that you decided to attack my posting, not the other way around because you disagreed with me. You then proceeded to drag up old threads of mine so you could argue in those too. You are a pointless little troll who has no apparant worth or use except perhaps as an organ donor.

[Julia]

I doubt if Mahakala carries an organ donor card. He probably thinks those horrid doctors wouldn't make quite sure he was dead before removing any recyclable bits. ;)

[mahakala]

I doubt if Mahakala carries an organ donor card. He probably thinks those horrid doctors wouldn't make quite sure he was dead before removing any recyclable bits. ;)

Yeah I heard that happens a lot around your neck of the woods.

[siestatime]

I doubt if Mahakala carries an organ donor card. He probably thinks those horrid doctors wouldn't make quite sure he was dead before removing any recyclable bits. ;)


Yeah I heard that happens a lot around your neck of the woods.

-which conjures up a picture of Hannibal Lecter running amok in the fair city of York. :smiley:

[median]

You mean endorphin theory?

That's actually one theory as to how the placebo effect works. It's consistent with the view that acupuncture is a placebo treatment.



I believe there was also some talk of linking the 'supposed' action of acupuncture on endorphins within the spinal cord. This had something to do with the Gate Control theory of pain. Whilst an interesting subject in itself, suggesting localised pain could be reduced by stimulation of mechanoreceptor fibres, I think it is important to establish whether or not acupuncture has an actual effect (beyond the realms of placebo).

Just because hundreds of people have reported favourable results there might be a plethora of reasons why this may be (aside from it actually doing what it says on the tin)

Whilst eastern therapies have seemingly gained a greater foothold in the west, it would be interesting to see whether it's use in Eastern countries has declined at all, in favour of conventional analgesics.

Regards

Median

[Julia]

-which conjures up a picture of Hannibal Lecter running amok in the fair city of York. :smiley:

Why was I not informed of this? I thought the biggest worries York has to face these days are the loss of jobs and the risk of flood damage! :scared:

[Yang]

Whilst eastern therapies have seemingly gained a greater foothold in the west, it would be interesting to see whether it's use in Eastern countries has declined at all, in favour of conventional analgesics.

Regards

Median

Well, let's see here. Median the decline of TCM in China for instance is well documented. But it may be necessary to point out a few facts. "Traditional" Chinese Medicine (TCM) as we know it was effectively born in the 1950's and was endorsed as part of a wider healthcare system. Of course TCM has existed much longer but in a formalised manner, many would contend that the 1950's were when what we now regard as TCM came into being. You can find more out regarding the historic perspectives here at a very high-level http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?ID=1819

Additionally, you can draw comparisons that China is moving to a "Balanced" system of treatment incorporating Western and Easter treatment styles but you could always revisit the argument that this also seemed to take hold around the time that the economy in China improved.

It is interesting to hear so much in the way of "Well read criticism" on this site but we could always remind ourselves that Chinese Medicine and many other forms of treatment have been available predating what is now Western Medicine and these therapies even pre-date Hippocrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates. By the way much of the Western and Eastern Medicine Philosophies do also seem to cross and you could read through the Neijing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing if you really want to prove this to yourselves.

I think there is a place for eastern and western medicine and there are good and bad points to each, it just depends on your take. I have been treated through both eastern and western methods / philosophies and have seen good and bad things happen in both. One thing that I would say however is that there seems to be an increased number of people who proport to being qualified to do Acupuncture or Tui Na for instance without the necessary qualification and this is partly due to the lack of current regulation.

Cheers

[siestatime]

Why was I not informed of this? I thought the biggest worries York has to face these days are the loss of jobs and the risk of flood damage! :scared:

You´ll have to ask mahakala the reason for the comment about doctors removing recyclable bits from not-dead people "in your neck of the woods."