Another trial of homoeopathy

[Blue Bubble]

Our dear Mojo has posted this at:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1617170


Another trial of homoeopathy

The Bristol Homeopathic Hospital is carrying out another trial of homoeopathy. This time they're looking at children with severe asthma. I wonder what sort of blinding they'll be using.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=385082&in_page_id=1774

By the way, does anyone want to vote on the poll on that page? At the moment "yes" has 57%.

Get voting !

[Admin]

<blockquote>"Your comment will be reviewed shortly. Comments may be edited and not all will be published."</blockquote>

We'll see - my comments never seem to get displayed. >:(

At least I've tried. :angel:

My vote seems to have helped the "no" side too.

[vbloke]

I've commented as well, but I doubt one coming from "The Bad Homeopath" is likely to get published either.

[Admin]

I've commented as well, but I doubt one coming from "The Bad Homeopath" is likely to get published either.


;D ;D ;D

I use my 'skeptics.org.uk' email address and I suspect that that's why nothing of mine ever gets published.

I used to comment a lot but these days I don't bother for that reason.

[vbloke]

Hmm...
Is homeopathy an effective treatment?

1 Yes
30%

2 No
70%

[Admin]

Ahem!...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=385082&in_page_id=1774

:jd:

There has to be a first for eveything. :D

[vbloke]

I notice mine hasn't appeared...

[Aardvark]

Ahem!...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=385082&in_page_id=1774

:jd:

There has to be a first for eveything. :D


Top marks John, erudite and educated.
I wonder if they will post my comments??

[Admin]

Thanks.

I made it up fairly quickly as I wanted to be the first one in there ;D I thought that I should have taken more time but it reads OK.


I wonder if they will post my comments??

Well if they posted mine I don't see why not. I used to write loads of comments on such pages but never got quoted. >:(

[Admin]

There's 7 comments up now.

Looks like the WooWoos didn't like my comments. :'(

All they can ever come out with are anecdotes and special pleading. ::)

And, of course, a load of rubbish about there being tons of properly controlled trials that show Homeopathy works.

I think Prof. Edzard Ernst must have missed those ones. ;)

[vbloke]

They even posted mine!

[Zendal Darkman]

Well they didn't print mine ;D ;D

John,
"Linus Wilson from Exeter" (Daily Mail Reader Comments) suggests you should see a homeopath, may I suggest you book with ‘vbloke’ right now, if your lucky you might get a discount.

[Mojo]

They haven't posted mine yet (submitted about 9am today).

And there's one on there now suggesting that a reason they don't get good results with chronic asthma is "years of prescription medication". >:(

Oddly, he than points out what he sees as flaws in the proposed study (I suspect that he doesn't realise that it will be using individualised homoeopathy):
It must also be realized that asthma has several causations, ie. emotional, allergy, genetic, exercise induced, immune system deficiency, nutritional factors and not forgetting the many cases that are wrongly diagnosed as asthma. You must also understand that every individual is different and responds differently to a certain therapy or approach to treatment.

So, before the trial even begins, it is flawed if we wish to take all the above into account.

And then finishing with a suggestion of cherry-picking:
The best results are always achieved if we select cases that will respond to a certain therapy.

About the suggestion that homeopathy is apparently more effective in asthma in young children: what sort of rate of spontaneous remission is seen in young children with asthma? Does anyone know? The press release (http://www.ubht.nhs.uk/press/view.asp?257) announcing the current study said that the most marked improvements in the earlier uncontrolled study were in children with asthma.

[Aardvark]

My first comments have been posted but not my strip down of the trial that was thrown as John as 'proof'

[Mojo]

Well, let's face it, the proposed study has already to some extent achieved what it set out to do: a story in a national newspaper headlined "Asthmatic children treated with homeopathy".

In fact, the Mail has put an even more positive spin on it than the press release the story was based on. A more accurate headline might have been, for example, "homeopathy to be tested on asthmatic children". Note also that the story says that it "will compare children receiving standard medication to those receiving the complementary therapy", missing out the fact stated in the press release that the homoeopathy will be used as an ajunct to the standard medication, not as an alternative.

While the press release is headed "Bristol study aims to find out if homeopathy can help children with severe asthma", this is not really the case. Like the study they published last year, the new study seems designed to demonstrate positive results for homoeopathy, not to test whether it is any better than placebo.

[Aardvark]

Yes I agree

At least the trila thrown at John was a Placebo control in ADHD, published last year in the Eur J Ped. Some scores hit stat sig but they screend out over half the patients before evn starting the trial. The Authors concluded that they needed to repeat the trial with a larger multi centre scheme in order to see if they could replicate the results

[Mojo]

How is something like ADHD measured? Is there some sort of subjective component to it?

Why do we not see tests of homoeopathy for conditions that are objectively measurable, such as, for example, reducing blood urate levels in patients with gout? This is an easily measurable condition which homoeopathy certainly claims to be able to treat:
homeopathy has some remedies which are particularly effective in the treatment of gout

(source (http://www.haleclinic.com/ailments/gout/))

I have quoted that particular page because they define gout as an accumulation of excessive uric acid in the blood, rather than just the symptoms, by the way.

[Zendal Darkman]

How is something like ADHD measured? Is there some sort of subjective component to it?


The actual report is here:-
http://www.doktor-quak.de/pdf/frei_adhs_2005_e.pdf
(on the homepage of Dr Quak)


The parents measured their child's behavior on a ten item scale of symptoms (CGI scale). There were many tests, such as being able to sit still, memorize numbers etc). The parents were unaware if the child was on placebo or 'verum' and so the scoring method can be scientifically sound.

The results do support the fact homeopathy appears to be better than a placebo, however there are two extremely puzzling aspects of the results (which the authors seems to have dismissed in a wave of the hand), which I would like addressed. I am planning to e-mail the author (her contact details are in the the report) to seek clarification. Please do not interpret this as me spotting a flaw in the test, I haven't.