hypocrisy -or it may all be bunkum - but its a nice little earner

[bruno.j]

hi all - as one who takes a wide ranging view of the paranormal - both for and against - i never ceases to amaze me just how many people both sceptic ( hence the title ) and pro woo - use their interest ( and i use the word advisedly here ) to make money out of it

on the "woo " side we have the fake mediums - magazine publishers - clairvoyants et al ( note here i am NOT condemning any one with genuine talents - just the fact they exploit them for gain ) - and of course the numerous "paranormal groups " who either charge "membership fees" or charge to attend "investigations - oh and of course all the "supposedly " ( may be i should use the word allegedly ??) haunted locations that just happen to also be businesses and have jumped on the bandwagon of the paranormal

on the sceptic side - we have those who poo poo the whole thing - but then are involved in running courses on how to hunt ghosts in a properly scientific manner ( er rather a contradiction in terms methinks ) - and probably there are a few other "nice little earners " that i have not latched on to so far such as the odd research grant here and there ??

to me this all smacks of hypocrisy !! - if one GENUINLY researches the paranormal - then it should be for the pure interest and hope of finding answers - not to make money out of it >:-) - there are thank god ( usual disclaimer as to if he /she exists O0) DO conduct research - be this in an amateur or professional sense - for the love of it - for no hope or wish for personal or financial gain - or of course fame/kudos - TO THEM MY DEEP RESPECT !! O0

this is just a personal view - some may agree - some my disagree - i would be interested in your comments - but PLEASE - lets not have purely emotive arguments - if you have a stand point - try and justify it ??

mine is simple - the paranormal is not an area for personal exploitation - it is an area for research ....

bruno.j

[chillzero]

Can you do research, pay your mortgage and feed your family?

[John Jackson]

Research and providing services costs money.

So what about groups who set up charities and not-for-profit organisations who do take in money but are restricted to spending it on their stated aims?

I think in your post, bruno, you're making the fallacy of 'guilt by association' ;) - yes phony psychics and mediums make money by ripping people off but to try and equate what they do with skeptics or other research organisations is fallacious.

Having said that, what if someone does provide training courses etc. and they make money from it?

Surely if they're providing a quality service that people want then there's nothing wrong with that!

[bruno.j]

Can you do research, pay your mortgage and feed your family?

er yes - mortgage is all paid - and yes O0

[MRT]

I've never made a penny out of the paranormal though I've spent a fortune on it over the years! As a result, this is a sensitive subject for me!

I could write a book, I suppose, but there would only be a tiny market for it. Not enough people are interested in a neutral, scientific study of the subject. What the public wants is anecdotes, unreproducible research results, theories based on a misunderstanding of quantum physics and name calling. I'm afraid none of these are my specialities.

[chillzero]

er yes - mortgage is all paid - and yes O0

I didn't mean you specifically - John made my point much better than I did.

[bruno.j]

Research and providing services costs money.

So what about groups who set up charities and not-for-profit organisations who do take in money but are restricted to spending it on their stated aims?

I think in your post, bruno, you're making the fallacy of 'guilt by association' ;) - yes phony psychics and mediums make money by ripping people off but to try and equate what they do with skeptics or other research organisations is fallacious.

Having said that, what if someone does provide training courses etc. and they make money from it?

Surely if they're providing a quality service that people want then there's nothing wrong with that!


like i said JJ - i am stating a personal opinion - i have provided a service to others at my own expense - in my own time - and charged them nothing for the privilege - research costs me and others money which we fund from our own pockets - OK a purist way of doing things

i think you have missed the point here - what i am saying is that you can not have your cake and eat it - if one genunily believes that the paranormal is a load of bunkum - then how can any one who holds this view ( really holds it that is - not just saying it to curry any perceived advantage ) - then be involved with ANY thing that makes money from it ??? surly any one doing so should have the guts to say "it is all bunk - there fore i can not in all good faith use the subject i don't believe in to make money " - that in my book is an honest response

now i know this is not an ideal world - and most people will, if they can find an angle - cash in on it - some may try and justify this - some ( not all ) on BOTH sides of the divide are guilty

i don't expect any one will take a blind bit of notice of my views anyway - but i like to hear opinions - so thanks for yours O0

bruno.j

[Cuddles]

mine is simple - the paranormal is not an area for personal exploitation - it is an area for research ....

And obvsiouly no-one makes money from scientific research.::)

[chillzero]

bruno,
Do you think that someone who believes the repression of an authoritarian state is wrong should not make money from writing articles and books to raise awareness of the subject?

I see this as something similar. Skeptics are not making money by playing on people's grief or beliefs or lack of scientific knowledge. They are checking facts, providing information, educating people in scientific protocol, etc. Is that really a bad thing?

[bruno.j]

And obviously no-one makes money from scientific research.::)

well as most paranormal research is regarded as "unscientific " ( by some )......... i don't see your point - we are talking paranormal here not main stream science - which makes loads of money no doubt - but then science is a business - not an interest or if we take the view of those who practice mediumship or clairvoyance a gift

though i always thought that it was believed abuse of said "gift" for personal gain would result in it being taken away :ponder:

[chillzero]

well as most paranormal research is regarded as "unscientific " ( by some )......... i don't see your point - we are talking paranormal here not main stream science - which makes loads of money no doubt - but then science is a business - not an interest or if we take the view of those who practice mediumship or clairvoyance a gift

though i always thought that it was believed abuse of said "gift" for personal gain would result in it being taken away :ponder:

But science isn't a business or an interest or a gift. It is a collection of processes for investigation. It is a way to confirm or refute claims and identify what is factual and what is bunk.

It is completely different from making money from vapid unsupported claims and abuse of science.

[bruno.j]

bruno,

Do you think that someone who believes the repression of an authoritarian state is wrong should not make money from writing articles and books to raise awareness of the subject?


er whats that got to do with any thing ?? yes i would support that person - and even send a donation


I see this as something similar. Skeptics are not making money by playing on people's grief or beliefs or lack of scientific knowledge. They are checking facts, providing information, educating people in scientific protocol, etc. Is that really a bad thing?

they are propagating an opinion or series of opinions - NOT facts always - as if they had all the facts and the proof to support them there would be no need for this forum - as everyone would be a sceptic - so are you saying sceptics are ALWAYS correct and everyone else is wrong ??

as to playing on peoples grief - i heartily condemn any one that prays on the grief of others !!- however there are some genuine people out there who can and do help the bereaved - they are far and few between - but they do exist - usually THEY are the ones who DONT charge

and as to your point about sceptics not making money from their scepticism ?? so no sceptics write books eh ?? - which is odd when sceptical books are openly advertised on this site - or are they all free ?? - if so i have a copy of each one available for my collection - every book i have on sceptical views ( and i have one or two ) has cost me money - so unless the authors are into "vanity " publishing - then the intent was to make a few bob from writing the book ( regardless if they did in fact make any money or not )

bruno.j

[bruno.j]

CZ - agreed not ALL science is a business - but there is a heck of a lot of science based business - science is a tool USED to make money in various ways - i don't think any one can dispute that ??

if that where the case all research labs would be run as "non profit " making organisations - all universities that teach science like wise ??

come on - get real - science is primarily about making money - if it where not then science would still be the preserve of the amateur experimenter - if i wanted to "employ " a top scientist to help me with a project - do you think they would do it for the love of the job ???

[MRT]

I do paranormal research and publish results freely on the web. The reasons I do this are: (a) no one would pay for it and (b) there is so much nonsense about this subject on the web, I feel it my duty to contribute at least a little sanity.

The main problem with being paid is that it compromises independence. If someone sponsors research, they set the parameters. Even if you write a book, you find that the editor will insist on changes to make it more saleable.

Would I do this for money? It would depend on how much indepence I could retain.

Do I blame people for taking money when they think the subject is nonsense? No, not really. If writing such books is their main income then not getting paid would mean the information would never get out.

[chillzero]

they are propagating an opinion or series of opinions - NOT facts always - as if they had all the facts and the proof to support them there would be no need for this forum - as everyone would be a sceptic - so are you saying sceptics are ALWAYS correct and everyone else is wrong ??

I don't think I even hinted at that. I am trying to show the difference between what 'psychics' do for money, and what skeptics do.


and as to your point about sceptics not making money from their scepticism ?? so no sceptics write books eh ?? - which is odd when sceptical books are openly advertised on this site - or are they all free ?? - if so i have a copy of each one available for my collection - every book i have on sceptical views ( and i have one or two ) has cost me money - so unless the authors are into "vanity " publishing - then the intent was to make a few bob from writing the book ( regardless if they did in fact make any money or not )

bruno.j

I never said that they didn't make money. Are you keeping track of this conversation at all? You were claiming that it is wrong for skeptics to make money off the back of the paranormal, and have bundled that together with psychics and mediums and so on. I have no issue with skeptics and scientists making money from research or whatever - I see it as similar to the journalism I mentioned, which you have no issue with.

So, why is it ok for someone to make money off the back of an authoritatian regime that murders and represses people, but not off the back of paranormal?

[fruitfly]

Is an investigative journalist who gets paid to expose corruption, fraud and deceit just as guilty as those who make money through perpetrating such acts? Moral equivalence, anybody?

[bruno.j]

CZ - OK let me spell this out to you

1. this is a question of ethics and morals

- the question was, is it right to express a view that the paranormal is bunk - but then make money from something that you consider bunk ? - surly if you consider something to be bunk - then you should not then exploit the very thing you don't believe in ?

example : i don't believe in the existence of the lock ness monster - so therefore would it not be wrong of me to set up boat trips on lock ness taking people out to look for the said monster i don't personally believe in ?? - by my standards that is hypocritical and personally i could not do such a thing - as it would - given my disbelief in the aforementioned monster be tantamount to a scam

2. this is nothing to do with repressive regimes - that is not the issue here and never was - any one who can do anything - paid or otherwise to ease the suffering of a people suppressed by such a regime has my support - as i am sure they would by the majority of right thinking people -

stop chucking in red herrings to the discussion ( and please no monsters either ;D -that was just an example )

hopefully that has made the context of my original question clearer ?? - we are not all as eliquent with words as some - so if my meaning was confusing - my appologies :smiley:

bruno.j

[fruitfly]

I wasn't making the above point in relation to repressive regimes. If, for example, a psychic was making money out of a missing child case (see http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1300 ), would you say a journalist or writer who exposed this is as guilty as the psychic predator because he or she was paid for the exposé?

[fruitfly]

And yes, I agree, it is a question of ethics and morals.

[chillzero]

CZ - OK let me spell this out to you

<snip>

hopefully that has made the context of my original question clearer ?? - we are not all as eliquent with words as some - so if my meaning was confusing - my appologies :smiley:

bruno.j


Well, that's clearer now, thank you. I re-read your OP in the light of this, and don't think I was too badly mistaken in my reading.

Anyway, I guess it depends on how you are making money. The example of the Loch Ness tours is a good one, and I would agree with that being inappropriate.

However, your OP gave the example of giving lectures on how to do ghost hunts to a scientific standard, and research into the paranormal.

There are 2 things I draw from that.

1 - Working to a scientific standard is a good thing, regardless. By doing that, further ghost hunters can use proper methodology, or at least know when they are going wrong as far as mysterious sounds or drafts go. It may result in more people drawing the conclusion that ghosts do not exist - or it may add up to gathering goos scientific data, should they actually exist.

2 - Related to that last sentence is the definition of 'skeptic'. Skeptics should have an openness to having new scientific evidence correct the current belief. So I don't see any hypocrisy in saying I don't believe in ghosts according to the current level of evidence, but I am happy to continue to look into the possibility.

[fruitfly]

Bruno, I thought the original question was about believers making money from believer philosophy and sceptics from scepticism. I have re-read the thread and now see the distinction you are making. I would, however, rather see proper paid scientific research into these matters than have paranormal beliefs foisted on a credible public by a self seeking media whose main interest is making money.

[bruno.j]

hi both - glad we got that sorted - it is not always easy to express ones views on this medium - and i apologise if my first post was not clear

i agree with both of you on your points - i too would like to see some proper scientific research done - there are some of us "woo's ";D;D who do try and do it "scientifically " ( well at least use common sense - which is a good place to start ) - but we are stymied trough lack of funds etc - and having the cooperation of say a university department would be a dream - BUT only if due respect was shown on both sides - and no rancor was present

but alas this is but a dream i fear - which is a pity as i think both science and the paranormal could learn a lot from each other if there was not this divide that exists - and each was prepared to accept that each side has valid knowledge to contribute

ah well dream on ..............................

regards to you both O0

bruno.j

[fruitfly]

...paranormal beliefs foisted on a credible public by a self seeking media whose main interest is making money.

Credible? I did, of course, mean "credulous".