So what frequency is a spirit?

[MRT]

We are often told that spirits are on a different frequency or wavelength that only some people can see/hear. Can someone with experience in communicating with spirits please tell me what this frequency is?

Also, given that there is a frequency, it implies there is something vibrating. What exactly is this, please? Is it electromagnetism / sound or something else completely? If so, what?

Thanks in advance for the info.

[bruno.j]

We are often told that spirits are on a different frequency or wavelength that only some people can see/hear. Can someone with experience in communicating with spirits please tell me what this frequency is?

Also, given that there is a frequency, it implies there is something vibrating. What exactly is this, please? Is it electromagnetism / sound or something else completely? If so, what?

Thanks in advance for the info.

i will be interested in answers to this one too O0- as i have been pondering this very question for some time - of course there are not many in either the paranormal or sceptic world - that make serious attempts to answer such a question -( science may eventually provide some clues with quantum physics ????? ) - but of course any one who has got any real information is highly unlikely to post it here as they will only get poo pooed for any ideas ( i may be wrong of course )

- i will say one thing for (some of ) the so called woo sites - they are more open to discussion on such things - and there are one or two people who ,whilst their work is generally derided - ARE making genuine attempts to answer this question - given that they have limited resources - no financial backing - and would probably kill for the facilities even a first year student has access to in the average university

so if any one DOES stick their head above the parapet - lets at least give them a fair hearing eh ??

bruno.j

[bobdezon]

We are often told that spirits are on a different frequency or wavelength that only some people can see/hear. Can someone with experience in communicating with spirits please tell me what this frequency is?

Also, given that there is a frequency, it implies there is something vibrating. What exactly is this, please? Is it electromagnetism / sound or something else completely? If so, what?

Thanks in advance for the info.


I cannot commune with the dead, but I shall try to answer the concept as best as I undertand it.

They operate (it would appear) on a purely imaginary frequency. Frequency, wavelength, planes, vibrations are just psuedo scientific explanations on how they are thought to operate in a logical sounding fashion. Believers are very good at mixing known science with ridiculous concepts in a frankenstian attempt to meld the two diametrically opossed concepts into a single unified theory. This lends a common knowlege creedance to their explanation for how such impossible things are not only possible but probable.

Psychics and mediums are said to be like a natural "tuning fork", they are said to be born with a "gift" possibly a biological mutation, or altered brian chemistry which allows them to "attune" to the "vibrations" the rest of us peons are unaware of. This makes them "special". They dont always see the deceased, some hear them, some recieve "impressions", they all have different names like clairvoyance,clairsentience, clairaudience, claircognizance,clairalience, and clairgustance. But in over 130 years of research non has been proven to be true or even possible.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

They operate (it would appear) on a purely imaginary frequency.


Love it :cheesy:

You only have to look at all the different explanations from mediums as to how 'it works' to see that they each have their own version. So basically the illusion is all man-made (or woman-made mostly 8))

[MRT]

There are a few people who post here who have had messages from the dead so I'm hoping they can supply the information.

PS: It's not often you hear the word 'peon' used - are you Spanish or has it just become fashionable (fashions pass me by so I wouldn't know)?

[dalriada]

Possibly as skeptics we should be thinking of spirits in terms of "proof" ?


"Spirits shall be deemed to be at proof if the volume of the ethyl alcohol contained therein made up to the volume of the spirits with distilled water has a weight equal to that of twelve-thirteenths of a volume of distilled water equal to the volume of the spirits, the volume of each liquid being computed as at fifty-one degrees Fahrenheit."


Customs and Excise Act of 1952 ;)

[bobdezon]

Love it :cheesy:

You only have to look at all the different explanations from mediums as to how 'it works' to see that they each have their own version. So basically the illusion is all man-made (or woman-made mostly 8))

Well women have always been deemed mysterious and strange by men, its only natural that mysticism is usually atrributed mainly to women practitioners, like the oracles of delphi or witches etc.



There are a few people who post here who have had messages from the dead so I'm hoping they can supply the information.

PS: It's not often you hear the word 'peon' used - are you Spanish or has it just become fashionable (fashions pass me by so I wouldn't know)?

I would assume given the nature of the forum that should be "allegedly" recieved messages from the dead, but I understand what you mean O0

No I am not spanish, I am english. I chose the word peon because it seems nicer than "the great unwashed" and incidentally Im also a warcraft fan. I dont think its a fashionable word, just a rarely used word that breaks the monotony of normal descriptions.
.

[Cuddles]

Possibly as skeptics we should be thinking of spirits in terms of "proof" ?


"Spirits shall be deemed to be at proof if the volume of the ethyl alcohol contained therein made up to the volume of the spirits with distilled water has a weight equal to that of twelve-thirteenths of a volume of distilled water equal to the volume of the spirits, the volume of each liquid being computed as at fifty-one degrees Fahrenheit."


Customs and Excise Act of 1952 ;)

And people try to claim that imperial units make sense.:tongue:

[MRT]

I am genuinely interested in a serious answer to this thread. I would like just a few details from the 'other side' I can get my teeth into. I find what I've come across so far too vague to be of any use.

[Tin Lizzie]

MRT,

My own knowledge on this precise matter comes from messages received by others from particular guides. There is also written material which refers to spirits existing on higher vibrational levels and higher frequencies; the difficulty in communication between us and them arises from our different wavelengths, like radio communication.

There is a lot of material available showing how meditation increases the frequency of our 'brain waves' by as much as 200% on top of the natural level. Obviously this would make it easier to 'receive' as we become more aligned with the spirit plane. As an initial probe into this, please read

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/EEGmeditation.htm (http://quantumconsciuosness.org/EEGmeditation.htm)

This research is also interesting, although it is more related to quantum formulae


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR

Thanks for at least allowing some exploration, MRT

[Admin]

Tim, I've only had a cursory glance at those links but they do not address the original question: they're to do with theories of the production of consciousness.

I think the original question is an excellent one and an answer to what these vibrations, frequencies and energies actually are would go a long way to fostering an understanding of why psychics claim they exist.

[Tin Lizzie]

John

Perhaps I should have stressed that I can only speculate. The frequencies and vibrations referred to on 'our side' may well not have anything in common with the same terms in conventional physics.

My wikipedia link - okay, not wholly relevant and I apologise.

The first link is actually relevant in that it highlights the raising of brain-wave amplitudes at higher frequencies. This may be a pure coincidence in termionology here - I am no neuroscientist - but the fact that meditation has this effect opens up the possibility that this kind of 'frequency' may be linked to spirit communication.

[MRT]

So the frequency we are referring to is in brain waves - is that correct? If that is so, are we talking about using electromagnetic waves to communicate from the dead to the brain of a receiver (given that brain waves, or rythms, are electromagnetic)?

[SimonC]

Perhaps I should have stressed that I can only speculate. The frequencies and vibrations referred to on 'our side' may well not have anything in common with the same terms in conventional physics.

This seems to be very similar to the get-out clause offered by many religious people, when they try to answer the question - 'If God created the universe, and there was nothingness before he did so, then where did he ( she/it ) come from?'.

The typical response seems to be that 'God' exists, and always existed, somehow beyond the physical universe, and thus didn't need to 'come from' anywhere.

Basically, it just seems to mean - "I don't know, so it must be magic ". That's really not an answer to anything.

[Tin Lizzie]

This seems to be very similar to the get-out clause offered by many religious people, when they try to answer the question - 'If God created the universe, and there was nothingness before he did so, then where did he ( she/it ) come from?'.

The typical response seems to be that 'God' exists, and always existed, somehow beyond the physical universe, and thus didn't need to 'come from' anywhere.

Basically, it just seems to mean - "I don't know, so it must be magic ". That's really not an answer to anything.

If you have nothing to contribute other than serious discussion without referring to mockery, stay out of this thread please.

[Tin Lizzie]

So the frequency we are referring to is in brain waves - is that correct? If that is so, are we talking about using electromagnetic waves to communicate from the dead to the brain of a receiver (given that brain waves, or rythms, are electromagnetic)?

As I say I have no deep knowledge on this matter of brainwaves. My own speculation on the involvement of brainwaves is based on what I have mentioned regarding the effects of meditation. there are no doubt mediums more knowledgable than myself who do not know of this forum; maybe they could expound further.

So, maybe electromagnetic waves are a possible medium?

[Admin]

If you have nothing to contribute other than serious discussion without referring to mockery, stay out of this thread please.

Simon's point was both valid and relevant. It's the 'God of the Gaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps)' argument. This is where people assign things they do not understand to God.

[Admin]

So, maybe electromagnetic waves are a possible medium?

That would make them detectable and measurable!!

I suspect that you'll have to abandon this theory rather sharpish.

[Tin Lizzie]

That would make them detectable and measurable!!

I suspect that you'll have to abandon this theory rather sharpish.

Why, exactly - i suspect this has been analysed before? Reliably?

[Tin Lizzie]

Simon's point was both valid and relevant. It's the 'God of the Gaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps)' argument. This is where people assign things they do not understand to God.

i haven't even mentioned my big boss yet, why bring him up if, as you stressed to me earlier, this is about frequencies?

[Admin]

i haven't even mentioned my big boss yet, why bring him up if, as you stressed to me earlier, this is about frequencies?

Simon used an analogy between people who use the God of the Gaps argument and people like you who use the same type of argument to keep your beliefs essentially unknowable.

Which is why you'll have to abandon your electromagnetic hypothesis. If it's testable it will be found wanting so you'll just end up abandoning it in favour of something untestable.

[SimonC]

If you have nothing to contribute other than serious discussion without referring to mockery, stay out of this thread please.

My post was not intended as 'mockery', and I'm sorry that you took it as such.

The point of the analogy that I was drawing, is that all paranormal beliefs reach a point where 'magical thinking' is required, and this,definitively, is where we choose ( or as skeptics choose not ) to make a leap-of-faith.

A few posts ago, you posited that an 'increase in the frequency of brain waves' makes it easier to 'receive' from the spirit plane. Indeed, you suggested that this was "obvious".

For this hypothesis to have any validity, wouldn't it be absolutely necessary to define your terms precisely, when referring to 'energy', 'vibrations', etc, in the context of the spirit plane? Simply suggesting that these phenomena are 'different' to our concepts of such really is magical-thinking. Again, I really see this in the same category ( and the same fundamental flaw in the argument ) as the theological point.

Again, sorry if you felt that I was mocking - that was not my intention. I will, however, politely decline to comply with your request that I should not participate further in this thread.

Cheers,

S

[Tin Lizzie]

My post was not intended as 'mockery', and I'm sorry that you took it as such.

The point of the analogy that I was drawing, is that all paranormal beliefs reach a point where 'magical thinking' is required, and this,definitively, is where we choose ( or as skeptics choose not ) to make a leap-of-faith.

A few posts ago, you posited that an 'increase in the frequency of brain waves' makes it easier to 'receive' from the spirit plane. Indeed, you suggested that this was "obvious".

For this hypothesis to have any validity, wouldn't it be absolutely necessary to define your terms precisely, when referring to 'energy', 'vibrations', etc, in the context of the spirit plane? Simply suggesting that these phenomena are 'different' to our concepts of such really is magical-thinking. Again, I really see this in the same category ( and the same fundamental flaw in the argument ) as the theological point.

Again, sorry if you felt that I was mocking - that was not my intention. I will, however, politely decline to comply with your request that I should not participate further in this thread.

Cheers,

S

No worries, just another example of how the two sides interpret things differently.

The thing for me is that I am trying to solve this backwards - I know the spirits are there and I would love to be able to prove this scientifically and not just because it would make me more famous than Britney Spears, probably.
Sadly I don't think it's possible yet. I am going to plough along all avenues though - I mean, it wasn't until too recently that it was discovered that the natural 'homing' mechanism of many animals is actually dependent on the magnetic fields (often referred to as 'ley lines' in mystical legend).

[Tin Lizzie]

Simon used an analogy between people who use the God of the Gaps argument and people like you who use the same type of argument to keep your beliefs essentially unknowable.

Which is why you'll have to abandon your electromagnetic hypothesis. If it's testable it will be found wanting so you'll just end up abandoning it in favour of something untestable.

Oh now there's logic for you.

So, I am putting forward an idea with a mind to progress.

You are putting forward.....what are you bringing to this discussion?

If it can be tested - great! I doubt it will prove or disprove anything though...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Oh now there's logic for you.

So, I am putting forward an idea with a mind to progress.

You are putting forward.....what are you bringing to this discussion?

If it can be tested - great! I doubt it will prove or disprove anything though...

I don't think you understand the concept of testing.

[Tin Lizzie]

I don't think you understand the concept of testing.

I don't think you have bothered even trying to understand what I have put forward.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I don't think you have bothered even trying to understand what I have put forward.

I don't really understand what you are saying. Electromagnetic waves. Ok, what next though.

[Zaira]

Children! Stop the fighting!

Here. Check this out.

And don't shoot the messenger! ;)

http://www.peterussell.com/SP/PsychicEnergy.php

[chillzero]

Sadly I don't think it's possible yet. I am going to plough along all avenues though - I mean, it wasn't until too recently that it was discovered that the natural 'homing' mechanism of many animals is actually dependent on the magnetic fields (often referred to as 'ley lines' in mystical legend).

Actually, I think this is incorrect. I'll try and find the article I read about how this has been disproven, and it seems to rely heavily on scent, rather than magnetic north. Even when it was believed it was due to magentic fields - this was still not related to ley lines.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Children! Stop the fighting!



Here. Check this out.



And don't shoot the messenger! ;)



http://www.peterussell.com/SP/PsychicEnergy.php

I've had a read. I still wouldn't say I am any closer to understanding psychic energy though. It sounds like a 'feeling' rather than anything else. If that feeling of warmth or whatever is empirical then it should be possible to measure. e.g. increase in heat being radiated from the body. If that feeling is just in the mind - then that probably tells me all I need to know about psychic energy.

[chillzero]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1838480,00.html




In the Pisa experiments, Gagliardo, working with Martin Wild of the University of Auckland , followed up experiments done in 2004, which showed that pigeons could detect magnetic fields. She argued that this did not mean they actually did.
So in 24 young homing pigeons she cut the nerves that carried olfactory signals to their brains. In another 24 pigeons she cut the trigeminal nerve, which is linked to the part of the brain involved in detecting magnetic fields. The 48 birds were released 30 miles from their loft. All but one of those deprived of their ability to detect magnetic fields were home within 24 hours, indicating that it was not an ability that helped them to navigate. But those who had been deprived of their sense of smell fluttered all over the skies of northern Italy. Only four made it home.

[Admin]

Children! Stop the fighting!

Please refrain from referring to other posters as children. Insulting comments help no-one.


Here. Check this out.

And don't shoot the messenger! ;)http://www.peterussell.com/SP/PsychicEnergy.php

Well this is interesting:

In physics, energy has a clear mathematical definition, and can be precisely quantified in established units. Psychic energy, on the other hand, has no formal definition, and cannot be measured in the same precise way. On the contrary, it is detected and assessed personally. It is a felt experience. And the nature and intensity are subjective evaluations rather than objective measurements.

That's tantamount to saying that psychic energy isn't actually real - it's simply metaphorical and it subjectively means whatever you want it to mean.

So when believers talk about "energies", "frequencies", "vibrations" etc., they're not using them in their scientific sense; they're hijacking scientific terms and using them as metaphors to make their belief system sound a little more valid.

Sounds about right. ;)

[MRT]

I could never be a biologist - such nasty experiments they have to do! :smiley:

Anyway, back to the thread. I read that interesting link, the basic thrust of which was that 'psychic energy' was essentially a subjective experience that cannot be measured. I'm not sure all psychics would agree with that. However, let's move on.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that spirits are undetectable by scientific instruments, whatever their frequency. They can still, however, communicate with living people (insert 'allegedly' anywhere you like here, I can't be bothered).

So, if thoughts appear in someone's mind from a spirit, that is a definite change to our physical universe. Indeed, more generally, if you think that paranormal experiences originate with something unmeasurable, they nevertheless have measurable effects on the real world. These changes CAN be measured. This is why I reject the argument that science cannot measure the paranormal. At some point there is an interface to the real world - when that happens we can measure it. If these measurements reveal nothing out of the ordinary (normal cause and effect) then we can probably assume there is only a subjective paranormal effect. If, on the other hand, we get effect without cause, it might imply psychic energy.

Anyway, in the current scenario, talking about the frequency of a spirit makes perfect sense. The spirit must produce a physical effect, triggering specific synapses in a particular order and timing to produce a thought that is not simply memory retrieval. So, is there any way to differentiate between 'psychic derived thoughts' and ordinary thoughts and, in particular, various normal brain states where thoughts or memories might appear spontaneously as if from an external source.

[Zaira]

Farside,

"I've had a read. I still wouldn't say I am any closer to understanding psychic energy though. It sounds like a 'feeling' rather than anything else. If that feeling of warmth or whatever is empirical then it should be possible to measure. e.g. increase in heat being radiated from the body. If that feeling is just in the mind - then that probably tells me all I need to know about psychic energy."

I have read it a few times and it is the closest I have come to it being described. Please don't dismiss it just because you have never experienced it. I can feel pretty uncomfortable in a room full of people because this 'energy reading' occasionally overwhelms me. It's like having everyone in the room talking to you at the same time - you can't make sense of what you are getting. It's easier in a room with half a dozen or so people but, even then, the 'energy' from just one person can make you want to leave the room.

Have you ever experienced anything like that even in a physical sense? There is just a chance that we experience the same thing but refer to it differently.

[Zaira]

"Please refrain from referring to other posters as children. Insulting comments help no-one."

It was a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[Tin Lizzie]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1838480,00.html

The Following is from http://www.sciencedaily.com based on a 2004 study at The University of North Carolina

"This is a fascinating study in which Cordula managed to train homing pigeons to respond to magnetic fields," said Dr. Kenneth J. Lohmann, Hoggard Distinguished professor of biology at UNC. "It is important news in biology because more than a dozen attempts by others to do this over the years have all failed. Cordula is the first to find a way to make it work."
In the experiments, if the pigeons chose correctly between two platforms located in a tunnel-like chamber, they were rewarded with food, Mora said. Under normal conditions, they would climb onto either of the two platforms randomly in their search for something to eat. But when a magnetic field was present -- induced by coils above and below their chamber -- the birds could be conditioned to climb the correct platform up to 75 percent of the time, which is significantly more often than they would by chance alone.
Once the pigeons were trained to respond to magnetic field stimuli, Mora learned more about the animals' magnetic sense, such as where their likely magnetic receptors are located, Lohmann said.
One set of experiments showed that a small but strong magnet attached to the top of the pigeons' beaks prevented them from going to the correct platform more than half the time. A small, non-magnetic brass weight similarly attached had no such effect, Mora said. Other experiments showed that both local anesthesia in the upper beak area and severing the ophthalmic branch of the trigeminal nerve impaired the birds' ability to detect magnetic fields, while cutting the olfactory nerve, which transfers information about smells, did not.

[Tin Lizzie]

In physics, energy has a clear mathematical definition, and can be precisely quantified in established units. Psychic energy, on the other hand, has no formal definition, and cannot be measured in the same precise way. On the contrary, it is detected and assessed personally. It is a felt experience. And the nature and intensity are subjective evaluations rather than objective measurements.

That's tantamount to saying that psychic energy isn't actually real - it's simply metaphorical and it subjectively means whatever you want it to mean.
[quote]

Perhaps also it indicates that the 'ability' is only present in certain people, just as some people are more athletically talented than others.

[quote]
So when believers talk about "energies", "frequencies", "vibrations" etc., they're not using them in their scientific sense; they're hijacking scientific terms and using them as metaphors to make their belief system sound a little more valid.

Given that spirit exists there must be a scientific explanation - even if we aren't aware of the means yet. I would still like to see this test which will address what I have suggested earlier.

[Cuddles]

The Following is from http://www.sciencedaily.com based on a 2004 study at The University of North Carolina

Basically, some animals can probably use magnetic fields as a compass, and nothing more. It can help point you in the right direction, but doesn't actually tell you where you are. Give someone a compass and a map and they can find their way. Take away either the compass or the map and they will be screwed. Birds, and probably other animals, can almost certainly use the Earth's magnetic field as a compass, but their "magnetic sense" is far from the universal navigational tool it was first thought to be.

In any case, as Chill said, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with ley lines. Ley lines have never been thought to be the Earth's magnetic field, which is close enough to constant over the whole surface of the Earth. Ley lines are supposed to be concentrated lines of "energy" running through the Earth, which bear no relation to anything that actually exists. Dowers and various other woos still make silly claims about ley lines, and their claims have nothing in common with either the Earth's, or any other, magnetic fields.

[Tin Lizzie]

I could never be a biologist - such nasty experiments they have to do! :smiley:

Anyway, back to the thread. I read that interesting link, the basic thrust of which was that 'psychic energy' was essentially a subjective experience that cannot be measured. I'm not sure all psychics would agree with that. However, let's move on.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that spirits are undetectable by scientific instruments, whatever their frequency. They can still, however, communicate with living people (insert 'allegedly' anywhere you like here, I can't be bothered).

So, if thoughts appear in someone's mind from a spirit, that is a definite change to our physical universe. Indeed, more generally, if you think that paranormal experiences originate with something unmeasurable, they nevertheless have measurable effects on the real world. These changes CAN be measured. This is why I reject the argument that science cannot measure the paranormal. At some point there is an interface to the real world - when that happens we can measure it. If these measurements reveal nothing out of the ordinary (normal cause and effect) then we can probably assume there is only a subjective paranormal effect. If, on the other hand, we get effect without cause, it might imply psychic energy.

Anyway, in the current scenario, talking about the frequency of a spirit makes perfect sense. The spirit must produce a physical effect, triggering specific synapses in a particular order and timing to produce a thought that is not simply memory retrieval. So, is there any way to differentiate between 'psychic derived thoughts' and ordinary thoughts and, in particular, various normal brain states where thoughts or memories might appear spontaneously as if from an external source.

I am wondering if this is possibly the same mechanism buy which telepathy between the living might occur.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Farside,



"I've had a read. I still wouldn't say I am any closer to understanding psychic energy though. It sounds like a 'feeling' rather than anything else. If that feeling of warmth or whatever is empirical then it should be possible to measure. e.g. increase in heat being radiated from the body. If that feeling is just in the mind - then that probably tells me all I need to know about psychic energy."



I have read it a few times and it is the closest I have come to it being described. Please don't dismiss it just because you have never experienced it. I can feel pretty uncomfortable in a room full of people because this 'energy reading' occasionally overwhelms me. It's like having everyone in the room talking to you at the same time - you can't make sense of what you are getting. It's easier in a room with half a dozen or so people but, even then, the 'energy' from just one person can make you want to leave the room.



Have you ever experienced anything like that even in a physical sense? There is just a chance that we experience the same thing but refer to it differently.

I have been in situations where I've really not wanted to be there. And because you don't want to be there, you feel on edge. Also, sometimes if I'm really tired or am stressed, I don't enjoy being in situations as much as if I was feeling ok.

I can remember times when I've left bars or nights out because I've been feeling a bit down or stressed. You can work yourself up into a state sometimes, if you let your brain go into overdrive - your body is knackered but your brain keeps on going.

I work in a large office, so I'm quite often faced with situations where I might be in a room with someone I really don't like >:D

You are correct that it is hard to put your finger on exactly why you don't like someone or a situation, but thats just a part of how the mind/brain/body works. I don't think ther eis anything paranormal about it.

This psychic energy idea, I wonder if anyone ever considers physiological explanations such as adrenalin and endorphines. And a less scientific term, but something everyone feels - 'butterflies' in the stomach.

If you are sitting in the audience at a large show and you think the spotlight is going to be on you, there is a large adrenalin rush. Plus if you are with a medium and you are taken by surprise by something you weren't expecting, you probably get an adrenalin rush.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Given that spirit exists there must be a scientific explanation - even if we aren't aware of the means yet. I would still like to see this test which will address what I have suggested earlier.

This is an assumption too far.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I am wondering if this is possibly the same mechanism buy which telepathy between the living might occur.

Again, take a step back. We don't have any proof that telepathy is a real effect.

[Tin Lizzie]

Again, take a step back. We don't have any proof that telepathy is a real effect.

Of course we have no proof, but there are indications that it is possible. I have a feeling that we may kill two birds with one stone.

[Zaira]

This isn't very nice, but nevertheless. My mum had to go into elderly accommodation and couldn't take her dog with her so we took it. It was not a very well trained dog. While in the garden it attacked and killed a pet rabbit belonging to one of my young children. We were all very upset and there was a lot going on at the time. I couldn't find anyone to take the dog so I drove a couple of towns away and left the dog where I hoped it could be found and cared for by someone else. The afternoon of the next day the dog turned up at the door! How? Why? My mother lives in Scotland and we live down south, we hadn't had the dog a week!! Why did it make it's way back to us? And how did it do it? We found it a good home by the way.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This isn't very nice, but nevertheless. My mum had to go into elderly accommodation and couldn't take her dog with her so we took it. It was not a very well trained dog. While in the garden it attacked and killed a pet rabbit belonging to one of my young children. We were all very upset and there was a lot going on at the time. I couldn't find anyone to take the dog so I drove a couple of towns away and left the dog where I hoped it could be found and cared for by someone else. The afternoon of the next day the dog turned up at the door! How? Why? My mother lives in Scotland and we live down south, we hadn't had the dog a week!! Why did it make it's way back to us? And how did it do it? We found it a good home by the way.

I don't know, but we still have so much to learn from animal behaviour.

If I was speculating, I'd say it got a scent. Maybe it got lucky and headed in the correct direction first, and then caught a scent. But really, I couldn't say.

You could ask this lady though.

http://www1.yourbeautifulmind.com/petpsychic.htm

[Zaira]

Farside,

I know what you are saying and I guess there are plausible reasons for these things. And I’m willing to accept, being curious about it, I could have read and been influence by other people’s take on that particular aspect of things. I’m not good in crowds. Maybe that is all there is to it.

[Tin Lizzie]

I think scent certainly does have much to do with this. Animals have such a powerful sense of smell, and they are also known to behave strangely when they sense a 'presence' which us human are unaware of.

If anyone could explain to me the mechanism by which scent is carried from the source to our senses I would be eternally and forever grateful because this may also have a link to how we communicate with spirit.

[MRT]

Surely no one is seriously suggesting that animal navigation is psychic or even mysterious? In birds, for instance, it is has been established for some time that they use multiple cues to navigate (eg stars, magnetism, scent, landmarks, etc). The idea that they use 'only one thing' is what slowed down earlier research but that's all in the past.

Anyway, can anyone suggest how we can detect whether a thought arrives in someone's mind from psychic sources or mundane ones, please? Ideas welcome.

It's an important question because, if there is no sensible answer, then scientists cannot ever take the idea of psychic energy seriously.

[filippo lippi]

If anyone could explain to me the mechanism by which scent is carried from the source to our senses I would be eternally and forever grateful because this may also have a link to how we communicate with spirit.


I've been away for a while and have read a lot of things that I admit that I may have become confused, but didn't you claim to be a science teacher?

[Zaira]

FarSide,

It was over twenty years ago the animal/pigeon discussion brought it back and just made me wonder. I'll check that site just to see if there's an explanation.

[MRT]

Re scent: Oh please! Smells are molecules with particular shapes that fit into corresponding receptor sites to trigger the appropriate brain response. The molecules move through air by a process of diffusion though this can obviously be disrupted by air currents, wind, etc. Lighter molecules diffuse faster etc etc all exactly as you'd expect.

Any chance of returning to the thread topic please? I'm genuinely interested in this problem. How can we distinguish psychicly derived thoughts from ordinary ones?

[Zaira]

MRT,


"Any chane of returning to the subject please? I'm genuinely interested in this problem."

Well I've been checking this stuff out for a long time and that link I posted comes the closest. I'm sorry if it isn't what you were looking for.

[MRT]

That article ignores the fact that 'psychic energy' has to be transformed into real energy at some point, otherwise it could have no effect on our world.

Question: does such an energy conversion obey the rules of our universe like conservation of energy? If not, any such conversion should stick out like a sore thumb. Indeed, it could even have highly unpredictable effects. Imagine an effect with no cause!

[wooo_oops]

I think scent certainly does have much to do with this. Animals have such a powerful sense of smell, and they are also known to behave strangely when they sense a 'presence' which us human are unaware of.

Dogs can apparently detect the 'presence' (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8549.html) of cancer in humans...

and maybe, possibly earthquakes... (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/11/1111_031111_earthquakeanimals.html)

MRT>To go back OT though, if I'm thinking along the right lines, are you talking about external causes for apparently psychic thoughts? Like with weak - but - measurable EM fields affecting the brain? Because a brain lesion can also precipitate apparently psychic thoughts, but it would be beyond me to suggest how to differentiate cos I'm not a neuro. ??? I'd be interested all the same...

[MRT]

What I'm saying is that, even if 'psychic energy' is undetectable in our universe (as some psychics claim) it still MUST have an effect IN our universe, otherwise no communication would be possible. So, at some point a thought must appear in a psychic's brain which originates from outside our reality. When that thought appears, it is in our universe, obeying the rules we are familiar with. It also becomes accessible to scientific measurement at that point.

So, how does the thought appear? It must cause an energy (real energy!) change to produce the thought. Does this action obey the conservation rules of our universe? If it DOES then there must be an apparent cause in OUR universe. If it DOES NOT then it could cause all sorts of weird, unpredictable things to happen. This could be a way of detecting such an event OR it might rule the possibility of such communication.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

FarSide,



It was over twenty years ago the animal/pigeon discussion brought it back and just made me wonder. I'll check that site just to see if there's an explanation.

I posted that link in humour - I suspect she might not actually be able to psychically communicate with the animals.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

What I'm saying is that, even if 'psychic energy' is undetectable in our universe (as some psychics claim) it still MUST have an effect IN our universe, otherwise no communication would be possible. So, at some point a thought must appear in a psychic's brain which originates from outside our reality. When that thought appears, it is in our universe, obeying the rules we are familiar with. It also becomes accessible to scientific measurement at that point.


This is exactly what I need answered as well.

I've never seen an answer that doesn't contain a contradiction.

[Cuddles]

This is exactly what I need answered as well.

I've never seen an answer that doesn't contain a contradiction.

I think it's caused by vibrating quantums loving each other's spirits.

[wooo_oops]

What I'm saying is that, even if 'psychic energy' is undetectable in our universe (as some psychics claim) it still MUST have an effect IN our universe, otherwise no communication would be possible. So, at some point a thought must appear in a psychic's brain which originates from outside our reality. When that thought appears, it is in our universe, obeying the rules we are familiar with. It also becomes accessible to scientific measurement at that point.

So, how does the thought appear? It must cause an energy (real energy!) change to produce the thought. Does this action obey the conservation rules of our universe? If it DOES then there must be an apparent cause in OUR universe. If it DOES NOT then it could cause all sorts of weird, unpredictable things to happen. This could be a way of detecting such an event OR it might rule the possibility of such communication.

NOW look what you've made me read: http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/dimensions.pdf

:cheesy: O0

[MRT]

He very neatly sidesteps the problem of how a thought moves from a cascade of neurons to 'energy' in higher dimensions. I like the bit about signals decaying at a lesser rate than in three dimensions. But is that true? Surely, the inverse square law derives from the area of a sphere. So with a 3-sphere (sphere in 4 dimensions) wouldn't the inverse square law become the inverse cube law ie. the signal actually vanishing more rapidly, not less?

[Tin Lizzie]

Surely no one is seriously suggesting that animal navigation is psychic or even mysterious? In birds, for instance, it is has been established for some time that they use multiple cues to navigate (eg stars, magnetism, scent, landmarks, etc). The idea that they use 'only one thing' is what slowed down earlier research but that's all in the past.

Anyway, can anyone suggest how we can detect whether a thought arrives in someone's mind from psychic sources or mundane ones, please? Ideas welcome.

It's an important question because, if there is no sensible answer, then scientists cannot ever take the idea of psychic energy seriously.

Lordy. Did I suggest that this was 'mystic'? Quotes please

[Tin Lizzie]

Anyway, can anyone suggest how we can detect whether a thought arrives in someone's mind from psychic sources or mundane ones, please? Ideas welcome.

It's an important question because, if there is no sensible answer, then scientists cannot ever take the idea of psychic energy seriously.

On the contrary it must be considered that we just don't know the medium (no pun) by which thoughts are carried. How is scent carried/ Is it really to do with the diffusion of particles?

Is it not possible that thought transmission occurs at a sub-atomic level? Using perhaps a medium of which scientists are unaware?

Mediums can see spirits; they can hear them, they can smell them, sometimes they just sense them. Basically spirit can transmit is presence into any of these forms. As for receiving thoughts, I really don't think science is qulified enough to judge spirit on this one.

MRT what do you think about the fact that meditation raises the frequency of brain waves, and that meditation incidentally makes a medium more disposed to receiving spirit?

[MRT]

Not accusing anyone of anything, I was just trying to get back to main thread topic. I'm afraid I get frustrated sometimes by the way threads meander off down blind alleys.

Incidentally, in the animal navigation bit I forgot to mention that birds form internal maps in their heads compiled using magnetism and landmarks and even smell. They also use the stars and the sun. They can use magnetism not just to point north to get a unique position using also the dip and inclination of the field.

Anyway, fascinating though this is ... any more thoughts on the thought / psychic interface?

[wooo_oops]

He very neatly sidesteps the problem of how a thought moves from a cascade of neurons to 'energy' in higher dimensions. I like the bit about signals decaying at a lesser rate than in three dimensions. But is that true? Surely, the inverse square law derives from the area of a sphere. So with a 3-sphere (sphere in 4 dimensions) wouldn't the inverse square law become the inverse cube law ie. the signal actually vanishing more rapidly, not less?

So you're talking magnetism...? My brain hurts.

Actually, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I never studied physics...but it was fun trying to get my head around it.

[SimonC]

How is scent carried/ Is it really to do with the diffusion of particles?



Yes. It really is.

[MRT]

On the contrary it must be considered that we just don't know the medium (no pun) by which thoughts are carried. How is scent carried/ Is it really to do with the diffusion of particles?

Yes, I think we do know what medium carries thoughts - firing neurons. And yes, it's diffusion of molecules that carries smell. This much science knows!


Is it not possible that thought transmission occurs at a sub-atomic level? Using perhaps a medium of which scientists are unaware?

People have speculated along these lines but neuroscience experiments suggest that you need a brain to think. No one has ever come across thought outside one, as far as I'm aware. DrB could elaborate on this at length, I'm sure.


Mediums can see spirits; they can hear them, they can smell them, sometimes they just sense them. Basically spirit can transmit is presence into any of these forms. As for receiving thoughts, I really don't think science is qulified enough to judge spirit on this one.

Although sensory impressions obviously arrive at our brain through our sensory organs, they also appear from other sources. Just consider optical illusions, for instance, not to mention visions caused by drugs, epilepsy and many other things. Also, the senses are very easy to fool but that's a whole other subject (see http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Mind.html).


MRT what do you think about the fact that meditation raises the frequency of brain waves, and that meditation incidentally makes a medium more disposed to receiving spirit?

When you talk about brain waves, I think you mean brain rhythms. These are the overall electrical rhythms measured by EEGs. Research has shown that these rhythms are, as you might expect, caused by the overall sum of the chatter of millions of neurons firing. It is thought that the rhythms may snychronise neuron firing, in a similar way to the clock pulse in a computer. However, just as measuring the clock pulse in a computer won't tell you anything about what the processor chip is actually calculating, so brain rhythms tell you nothing about what thoughts are going on. However, just as changing the clock frequency of a computer can speed it up, slow it down or just make it go wrong, altering brain rhythms may affect the brains overall state but it would be difficult to predict what would happen at the individual neuron level. I don't think you can alter a rhythm to make someone think a particular thought, for instance. Raising rhythm frequency may make the brain more susceptible to hallucination, however (remembering the computer going wrong analogy).

[MRT]

So you're talking magnetism...? My brain hurts.

Actually, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I never studied physics...but it was fun trying to get my head around it.

The author was implying that 'thoughts' could somehow be carried independently of brains and that they would obey electromagnetic laws. I don't think he specified if they were actually electromagnetic as such.

[Tin Lizzie]

Yes. It really is.

Lordy. I know this. It's called 'testing' ;o)

[Zaira]

FarSide,

"I posted that link in humour - I suspect she might not actually be able to psychically communicate with the animals."

I know. And I don't think so either. I just wondered if there might be a little snippet in there somewhere about how dogs find their way home. :smiley:

[Tin Lizzie]

I don't think you can alter a rhythm to make someone think a particular thought, for instance. Raising rhythm frequency may make the brain more susceptible to hallucination, however (remembering the computer going wrong analogy).

I am glad you mentioned this, because research on meditation has shown that it causes certain changes in the rates of metabolic & physiological activity. This includes a decrease in the hormone seratonin, which is linked to hallucinations. Given that meditation reduces the rate of serotonin secretion the likelihood of hallucinations occuring is much reduced. Particularly when yo consider the regular contact that mediums have with spirit, I would say hallucination is very unlikely. Links to follow....

[Dr B]

cough.......:ponder:...ahem.....

[Tin Lizzie]

This is the one - the meaty info is nearer the bottom, of course.

http://www.1stholistic.com/Meditation/hol_meditation_neurophysiology-of-meditation.htm

I have a bad feeling that I totally misinterpreted just what is increased and what is decreased.

[Zaira]

FarSide,

"I've never seen an answer that doesn't contain a contradiction."

Matthew 7:7-8 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Then stop seeking the contradictions! :smiley:


Note: So as not to offend this was intended as a joke.

[MRT]

I am glad you mentioned this, because research on meditation has shown that it causes certain changes in the rates of metabolic & physiological activity. This includes a decrease in the hormone seratonin, which is linked to hallucinations. Given that meditation reduces the rate of serotonin secretion the likelihood of hallucinations occuring is much reduced. Particularly when yo consider the regular contact that mediums have with spirit, I would say hallucination is very unlikely. Links to follow....

There are a great many different causes of hallucination.

[MRT]

Note: So as not to offend this was intended as a joke.


I'm glad about that - there's another place for bible stuff.

DrB - do feel free to join in! :smiley:

[Zaira]

Yeah, and it keeps me warm in the winter. ;)

[Tin Lizzie]

MRT

I have a feeling that EEG activity during spirit communication may already have been tested. If this is the case a link would be lovely, as it would save me barking up the wrong tree.

I see the point you are making; because we are receiving information and 'thinking' about it, there should be a change in brain activity which is measurable. Forgive my laymans terminology.

[MRT]

I've had some more thoughts on this (insert 'alleged' as required). This theoretical ramble starts by assuming that there is a psychic universe that we cannot contact or detect by any conventional means.

Firstly, if messages from the psychic world (which is effectively a different universe with no physical connection to ours) just appear in our universe they will, of course, break various conservation laws. However, there is another example of this situation - the event horizon around a black hole. The event horizon effectively 'screens' our universe from the singularity inside which has infinite density (which would otherwise be impossible in our universe). So, should we be looking for some kind of event horizon when a psychic message appears?

Secondly, only certain people get psychic messages. They also seem to be able to set up two way contact. However, I've never heard of two psychics getting an identical message at the same time when they are physically close (anyone know of any such cases?). This seems to imply that it is not a wave transmission, available to everyone with a suitable brain in the vicinity. So, this implies that people who get psychic messages are making 'point to point' contact (like a wire) with the psychic world. The connection must be initiated by something in their brain. This further implies that any 'event horizon' that may exist would be in their brains! Now that's a scary thought!

[Zaira]

What about that part of the brain that is said to be dormant? What about my theory that something like a bang to the head may be responsible for triggering something in the brain? What about the stories of people performing great feats of strength in dangerous situation - like raising a car up off of someone? What is going on in the brain?

[Cuddles]

What about that part of the brain that is said to be dormant?

There isn't one. The idea about us only using 5% of our brains is a myth. The idea that we could evolve a large, incredibly energy intensive organ and then fail to use most of it is just silly.


What about my theory that something like a bang to the head may be responsible for triggering something in the brain?

You mean triggering something other than a haemorrhage? Do you happen to have any evidence?


What about the stories of people performing great feats of strength in dangerous situation - like raising a car up off of someone? What is going on in the brain?

When a person is electrocuted, their muscles can contract so hard that they snap their own bones. People don't get thrown across rooms by the electricity, it is their own muscles that do it. Our muscles are much, much stronger than is usually apparent, but using them like this isn't generally a good idea because it causes a lot of damage to them and the rest of your body. Unusual feats of strength are impressive, but certainly not paranormal and have absolutely nothing to do with the brain. It is all about hormones and the fight-or-flight response.

[MRT]

There are no dormant parts of the brain - we use it all, unless it is damaged.

I'm afraid I don't have any answers. I'm hoping others will join in with their ideas.

[chillzero]

What about that part of the brain that is said to be dormant? What about my theory that something like a bang to the head may be responsible for triggering something in the brain? What about the stories of people performing great feats of strength in dangerous situation - like raising a car up off of someone? What is going on in the brain?

Cars aren't lifted by the brain. They are lifted by the muscles, temporarily boosted by adrenaline, generated by fear and/or pain.

[Zaira]

Cuddles,

I didn't know that was a myth. Must be reading the wrong type of books. Thanks. Back to the drawing board for me.

"You mean triggering something other than a haemorrhage? Do you happen to have any evidence?"

No. It was just one of the many things I considered.

"When a person is electrocuted, their muscles can contract so hard that they snap their own bones. People don't get thrown across rooms by the electricity, it is their own muscles that do it. Our muscles are much, much stronger than is usually apparent, but using them like this isn't generally a good idea because it causes a lot of damage to them and the rest of your body. Unusual feats of strength are impressive, but certainly not paranormal and have absolutely nothing to do with the brain. It is all about hormones and the fight-or-flight response."

I didn't know that. Thanks for explaining. I was thrown across the room, young and stupid I stuck a screwdriver into an appliance that was still plugged in - that might explain a lot. :smiley:

[Zaira]

chillzero,

"Cars aren't lifted by the brain. They are lifted by the muscles, temporarily boosted by adrenaline, generated by fear and/or pain."

But don't the muscles need a message from the brain?

[MRT]

When you say 'dormant' are you referring to 'unconscious'? The vast majority of functions carried out by our brains happen without conscious awareness. When we move a leg we don't have to think about moving every muscle required, we just 'issue a command' to move it. Indeed, for a lot things, like blinking and breathing, we don't even issue commands. This unconscious area does its own thing much of the time. Indeed, research has shown that we consciously think about moving a leg AFTER the action has already been initiated in our nervous system.

The unconscious area bit of the brain is also where sensory input is filtered and weaved together into a 'world view' for the conscious mind to see. This world view is only approximate, which includes lots of guesswork (based on experience) by your brain! You can fool the system with various sensory illusions some of which may well explain apparent paranormal experiences.

Here's an example: look at a clock with a second hand or digital second display. It will often seem to take longer for the first 'second' to elapse than subsequent ones. This is caused by saccades - tiny movements of your eye lasting microseconds which flick around to get a good view of the world. Saccades are needed because only the fovea - the central part of your retina - has the necessary density of photoreceptors to produce the 'normal' detailed view of the world we're used to. The 'long second' you see in the clock is caused by your brain filling in retrospectively for the but it missed during saccades.

When people say 'believe your eyes', they obviously know nothing about how the brain works!

[Zaira]

MRT,

Hope I'm right in assuming this question was for me.

"When you say 'dormant' are you referring to 'unconscious'?"

Not really sure. Is the unconscious the same as the subconscious?

[MRT]

The unconscious mind is the bit excluding consciousness. I don't use the word 'subconscious' because it is sometimes used in a pseudoscientific way. We're talking real science here.

[wooo_oops]

Well, gone a bit OT but,


What about my theory that something like a bang to the head may be responsible for triggering something in the brain?

Well, ok. It can be the cause of epilepsy in people who have a low seizure threshold, for instance.

Basic: http://www.epilepsynse.org.uk/pages/info/leaflets/explaini.cfm

And, look at this:
http://musicnews.virginmedia.com/news/?news_id=32827

:cheesy: It's not funny, no.

[Zaira]

MRT,

Okay. Thanks. Going to take another look at your other post using 'unconscious'. That always confused me when reading about it - both terms being used but seeming to mean the same thing.

[chillzero]

chillzero,



"Cars aren't lifted by the brain. They are lifted by the muscles, temporarily boosted by adrenaline, generated by fear and/or pain."



But don't the muscles need a message from the brain?

I think the other posts above cover this better than I could, but you may conciously think you need to lift the car, but you won't be conciously thinking about sending adrenaline from the glands to the required areas.

[Zaira]

MRT,

My guy was involved in a bombing in Northern Ireland. He suffered a very serious head injury - losing a piece of his skull about the size of a fifty pence piece. After spending about three month in a hospital, he was transferred to Chessington Army Rehabilitation Centre where he spent almost a year - coming home on weekends in a wheelchair - learning to walk and talk again. I sat in on quite a few sessions while the doctors painstakingly explained to us what was going on and what needed to be done for my guy to walk again. Something about other parts of the brain learning and taking over from the damaged parts, and about how the left side of the brain controls the right side of the body etc. I read some books to help me understand what he was going through and why he often got very frustrated with himself. This is a smart guy, a very logical thinking type of guy. He would explain how he thought about doing something like picking up a cup and thought he had only to realise that he hadn't, he just thought he had. I don't claim to understand it but I tried. It was all very confusing and often the books didn't help much at all.

I share that little anecdote to let you know the extent of my knowledge about the brain. Not much I'm afraid. But this doesn't stop me from being curious about it. Or about what the little blighter has got me believing. Or why it let me feed it all that crap!!!

[Zaira]

wooo_oops,

I'm still checking those links.

Meantime here's a little anecdote of how I got my bang to the head. It might explain a lot. ;)

I was six or seven, playing tag in the school play ground. Some guys had been working on a drain in the play ground and had gone off leaving the cover off. I fell down it banging my head on the sides. Then next thing I remember, I'm up to my ankles in water and a teacher is reaching down to lift me out. I had nightmares that no one noticed, the cover was replaced and the drain filled up with water.

Anyway, going to get back to those links.