Tunbridge Wells homeopathic hospital to close.

[Admin]

http://dcscience.net/?p=167

It's rather pleasing to see rationality winning out over pseudoscience for a change.

Homeopathy is a completely untenable system of healthcare from a scientific point of view: what is homeopathy? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php)

As with all irrational beliefs it can be argued that people gain from it (placebo effects etc.) which is fair enough but to do so on the NHS, at taxpayers' expense, using money that could be spent on things that are proven to work, is an indulgence and a waste.

This is not a question of whether homeopathy works (it doesn't even though many believe in it) but a question of whether the small placebo benefits people gain are worth the cost.

I certainly have never thought so; especially when one considers the alternative treatments the money could be spent on.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for these anachronistic 'homeopathic hospitals' and a sign that we're at last leaving this 19th century psedoscience behind us.

[bindeweede]

http://dcscience.net/?p=167

It's rather pleasing to see rationality winning out over pseudoscience for a change.

Homeopathy is a completely untenable system of healthcare from a scientific point of view: what is homeopathy? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php)

As with all irrational beliefs it can be argued that people gain from it (placebo effects etc.) which is fair enough but to do so on the NHS, at taxpayers' expense, using money that could be spent on things that are proven to work, is an indulgence and a waste.

This is not a question of whether homeopathy works (it doesn't even though many believe in it) but a question of whether the small placebo benefits people gain are worth the cost.

I certainly have never thought so; especially when one considers the alternative treatments the money could be spent on.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for these anachronistic 'homeopathic hospitals' and a sign that we're at last leaving this 19th century psedoscience behind us.

John,

Shortly after I joined this forum, I printed off your analysis of homeopathy, read and absorbed it. I'm sure you will tell if I'm wrong, but if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

[Mojo]

So closing the hospital will make it more effective?

[Lord Muck oGentry]

So closing the hospital will make it more effective?


Good one!

[bindeweede]

Good one!

I am SSSSOOOO slow, but I get there in the end.:smiley:

[wooo_oops]

John,

Shortly after I joined this forum, I printed off your analysis of homeopathy, read and absorbed it. I'm sure you will tell if I'm wrong, but if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

I'm not going to answer for John, but I did hear that Rajan Sankaran (http://uk.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=Rajan+Sankaran&kgs=1&kls=0[/URL) proposed that only the idea of taking a remedy would suffice.

I heard that from my partner, who studied homeopathy years ago.O0

[Lord Muck oGentry]

I am SSSSOOOO slow, but I get there in the end.:smiley:

Well, that'll larn me. :-)

[bindeweede]

Well, that'll larn me. :-)
Sorry. I do not understand.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Sorry. I do not understand.

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.

[bindeweede]

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.
Hey, am I bovvered? Do I look.....? What's it all about?
Dunno.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

[bindeweede]

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.

Look, you are so brainy, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. This place intimidates me - so many brainy folks. I am simply so pleased that people like Cuddles and Araneus, and others, too many to mention, have not destroyed me. I just feel I have been tolerated, nothing more.

[bindeweede]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

www.avatrsdb.com (http://www.avatrsdb.com)

[bindeweede]

www.avatrsdb.com (http://www.avatrsdb.com)

What's the point of a link that doesn't work>:-)

www.avatarsdb.com (http://www.avatarsdb.com)

Sorry about that.

[Mojo]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

Strangely enough, I've seen it on a thread about homoeopathy before: it used to appear here (http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathyforums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2557&PN=1), but the person who started it has since changed her avatar.

[Muttley]

....if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

Or taking it to its (il)logical conclusion, everybody who hasn't taken the remedy should be suffering massive overdose symptoms.:cheesy:

M.

[mahakala]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

[Admin]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

Do you have any links or further information?


To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

No it isn't because homeopathy is a placebo treatment. To believe that it's anything different is plain dumb.

See: Homeopathy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php). 'Remedies' that don't have any ingredients cannot possibly work.

[bobdezon]

Psssssst....John.....theres a clue in the name......... :nurse:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakala

[Admin]

Thanks Bob.

That read is almost as mad as the theory of homeopathy. ;D

[mahakala]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

Good luck with that.

[Admin]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

Have you heard of the Avogadro limit to dilution (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67)? ;)

If homeopaths could tell the difference between a plain sugar pill and a homeopathic sugar pill they would be able to claim James Randi's $1,000,000 prize (http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=31).


But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

No it isn't. It's how stupid mystical and magical thinking wrongly states that reality works.

Reality is that which remains when you stop believing it.

[bobdezon]

It should be noted that spectometry or electron microscopes cannot detect even a single molecule of the original substance in any homeopathic solution (once past a certain dilution ofcourse) This is a mathmatical fact. It has been theorised that to find a single molecule of the original solution in the substance would require a globe of water as large as our solar system. Incase you cannot do the math, there simply is not that volume of water available. Subsequently it is a myth that homeopathy has any other effect than a placebo one.

you are always welcome to accept this information or completely ignore it. You are even welcome to try and commit suicide by ingesting dangerous amounts of any homeopathic remedy if you so choose. ;)

[Mojo]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.


They have? Can you provide citations to where the results have been published?

And how do you square that with this recent statement made by Kate Chatfield of the Research Ethics Committee of the Society of Homeopaths in evidence (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/lduncorr/s&ti210207.pdf) given to the House of Lords select committee on science and technology:
Q538 Lord Broers: I have a simple, technical question about homeopathy and drugs. Is it possible to distinguish between homeopathic drugs after they have been diluted? Is there any means of distinguishing one from the other?

Ms Chatfield: Only by the label.

[Muttley]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.


Well, the BBC "Horizon" programme took the James Randi $1M challenge with a controlled, randomised double-blind trial of a homeopathic preparation of histamine tested against plain water, with the detection system consisting of mammalian tissue culture cells. Cytotoxic effect was measured using flow cytometry - a laser-based technique where results are assessed by a computer system rather than any kind of subjective human analysis.

Within statistical limits of experimental error, the homeopathic preparation and the plain water gave exactly the same results, just as any rational person would expect them to.

Do you have any irrefutable, scientifically-valid evidence that homeopathic preparations have any measurable effect over that of the solvent system in which they are prepared? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

M.

[brianp]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.
Well for a start they aren't solutions because solutions have two parts, a solvent and a solute, and there's none of the latter. Consequently the make-up is very simple, it's that of water.

And as for laser spectrometry and electron microscopy - you're quite wrong when you suggest that we've never heard of them. In fact I'm certain that many here will have a good understanding of both their theoretical basis and the practical aspects of their use. So when you point us to detailed descriptions of these studies you refer to where those techniques were used to analyze homeopathic "solutions", you can be sure that many here will be able to fully appreciate them and judge their worth.

Meanwhile I make no apology for fully concurring with the views that the terms "homeopathic solution" and "water" are synonymous and that homeopathy has no curative or palliative action beyond that of a placebo.

[mahakala]

In the end none of these whys and why nots really mean anything. As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating and over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.

[filippo lippi]

Of course, hearsay and conjecture are types of evidence.::)

[Mojo]

In the end none of these whys and why nots really mean anything. As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating and over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.


Can you provide references for any of the the studies you claim have been carried out on homoeopathic solutions using "laser spectometry [sic] or electron microscopes"?

[vbloke]

I assume they're referring to this paper:
Quality Assessment of Physical Research in Homeopathy,
Claudia Becker-Witt, Thorolf E.R. Wei[ss]huhn, Rainer Ludtke, Stefan N. Willich. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 2003, 9(1): 113-132. doi:10.1089/107555303321222991.

Conclusions: Most physical experiments of homeopathic preparations were performed with inadequate controls or had other serious flaws that prevented any meaningful conclusion. Except for those of high quality, all experiments should be repeated using stricter methodology and standardization before they are accepted as indications of special features of homeopathic potencies.

Hardly conclusive.

[Muttley]

.....over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Sorry, but what you have seen is people using homeopathic remedies, and getting better. That's not the same thing, and it proves nothing - they might have got better anyway, without the remedy, or some other factors may have been involved.


Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.

Not necessarily. You may lack understanding of some scientific subjects. Do you have some understanding of the nature of solutions? Do you understand the concept of Avogadro's number, whereby you can calculate the number of molecules in a solution, given the volume, the concentration, and the molecular weight of the solute? Do you understand serial dilution? Can you do a bit of arithmetic using powers of 10?

It's all explained in the link John posted in post #22. Here it is again (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67). If you read and understand that, and then still believe that a remedy with no active ingredient can work (except as a placebo), then yes, you may be delusional.


As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating.....

But in this case, the analogy would be to hand someone an empty plate, and then ask their opinion of the pudding. You can't eat a pudding that contains no pudding. So nothing is proved.O0

M.

[bobdezon]

Hmmmmm, you might be onto a money spinner there. The "pudding-no pudding diet plan". You can eat/not eat as much as you like and are guaranteed to only lose weight.

I see no downside to this, unless you count starvation and malnutrition to be a downside.

[Muttley]

Hmmmmm, you might be onto a money spinner there. The "pudding-no pudding diet plan". You can eat/not eat as much as you like and are guaranteed to only lose weight.

Yes, I can feel my palms starting to itch. 8)


I see no downside to this, unless you count starvation and malnutrition to be a downside.

No, no, no. We'll just refer to them in the small print as "Minor side-effects which may be experienced by a small number of users. If symptoms persist, consult your doctor". After all, we don't want anybody to die - they'd stop buying the non-puddings then.O0

M.

[bobdezon]

Well thinking about this, there is also the possibility of death (eventually) so we would have to include that "side effect". So just incase of impending death (for serious followers of the diet) We would also have to ammend the warning to:


Potential risk of death, If symptoms persist consult a medium

[vbloke]

In the end none of these whys and why nots really mean anything. As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating and over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.As a qualified homeopath myself, I can honestly say that during my classes, there was never any mention of any pathways in which homeopathy "works". It was all conjecture, hypothesis and "we believe". How scientific.

I have no formal medical training, no real knowledge about human anatomy, or bacterial or viral infections, nor do I really understand the ways in which the body fights infections, yet I am now qualified to prescribe "medicine" to "cure" a range of illnesses (that the SoH would have you believe includes HIV and malaria) - I find that both morally and ethically bankrupt, in light of the fact that there has never been a properly controlled study that has found any efficacy in a homeopathic remedy beyond that of placebo.

Homeopaths have had almost 200 years to provide definitive proof of the effectiveness of homeopathy - this evidence has never been obtained. After 200 years, it should be time to put aside the anecdotes, lay down the hypothesis and conduct a properly controlled test that would say once and for all whether or not homeopathy actually works. Based on my own experience, I can say that no such trial will ever take place as fear of failure prevents it.

Homeopathy is no a multi-million dollar business - surely it is not beyond your reach to actually fund a test (or series of tests) that would shut the skeptics up once and for all.

Until you've done this and proved that homeopathy works above and beyond placebo, you have no credibility and no evidence to back up your assertions, so you might as well be preaching your make-believe to a wall, for all the good it will do.

I, for one, am glad that the NHS is reviewing the use of homeopathy in this country, as it is diverting funds from genuine medical treatments that have shown themselves to be effective at treating diseases. Until homeopathy can show that it is the equal of these treatments, it does not belong in a medical environment.

[bobdezon]

I seriously thought you were joking when you said you were a homeopath vbloke :-[.

Wonders never cease to amaze, an "anti homeopathic homeopath". Who needs woo when you live in a universe as wonderful as this? O0

Vbloke we should have babies >:D

[vbloke]

I seriously thought you were joking when you said you were a homeopath vbloke :-[.

Wonders never cease to amaze, an "anti homeopathic homeopath". Who needs woo when you live in a universe as wonderful as this? O0

Vbloke we should have babies >:DIt's only step one in my wooducation.

Next up is astrology and then maybe psychic school.

[bobdezon]

The planets are not yet in alignment for you so I would suggest giving astrology a miss for at least two months. Also the psychic school already knows your interested and are mailing you a prospectus at some undefinable point in the future. If you hear nothing from them, ask around your family, they will know whats going on. ;)

[Mojo]

We'll just refer to them in the small print as "Minor side-effects which may be experienced by a small number of users.

No, you need to call them "aggravations". That way you can claim they show that the non-puddings are working.

[Blue Wode]

I, for one, am glad that the NHS is reviewing the use of homeopathy in this country, as it is diverting funds from genuine medical treatments that have shown themselves to be effective at treating diseases. Until homeopathy can show that it is the equal of these treatments, it does not belong in a medical environment.

Hear, hear! And no doubt many here will be pleased to learn that the wheels might be falling off the ‘Homeopathy worked for me’ campaign which has been attempting to retain provision for homeopathy on the NHS.

The campaign’s Chair, Michelle Shine, who was working to get 250,000 signatures to take to parliament in June 2008 for Homeopathy Awareness Week, has just resigned:
http://www.hmc21.org/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/2555?opendocument&part=8 (http://www.hmc21.org/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/2555?opendocument&part=8)

Perhaps the paltry 6,527 signatures collected to date had something to do with it.

The responsibility for finding 17,391 new signatures every week until June appears to have passed to ‘classical homeopath’ Ursula Kraus-Harper. You can read more about her here:
http://www.homeopathymiltonkeynes.co.uk/ (http://www.homeopathymiltonkeynes.co.uk/)

[exile]

To the original point:-

Build a VERY VERY SMALL hospital - a couple of lego bricks perhaps - and that should work as well as the hospital that's being closed......

[Janot]

To the original point:-

Build a VERY VERY SMALL hospital - a couple of lego bricks perhaps - and that should work as well as the hospital that's being closed......;D;D;D;D

[SkepticReport]

What did Tunbridge Wells do with their "medicine"?

Flush it down the toilet?

[Blue Wode]

According to this report from the BBC today…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm) (1 min 38secs)
the Bristol Homoeopathic Hospital is in trouble as well because not enough patients are using it.

[bindeweede]

According to this report from the BBC today…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm) (1 min 38secs)
the Bristol Homoeopathic Hospital is in trouble as well because not enough patients are using it.



At the end of the clip, the commentator uses the word "fear". I think I would have used "hope".

[bobdezon]

According to this report from the BBC today…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7437962.stm) (1 min 38secs)
the Bristol Homoeopathic Hospital is in trouble as well because not enough patients are using it.




Maybe they could dilute their patient list a bit? O0

[bindeweede]

Campaigners look to have lost their fight to save a leading homeopathic hospital, in a landmark case that accelerates the treatment’s deepening crisis over NHS funding.


West Kent PCT decided there was ‘not enough evidence of clinical effectiveness’ to justify funding routine homeopathic consultations and treatments at the Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital, a decision which may force its closure.




http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=23&storycode=4120260&c=2

[Blue Wode]

And rather than conceding that there’s not enough evidence of clinical effectiveness for homeopathy, John Cook, Chairman of the British Homeopathic Association, is blaming “managers with no experience of homeopathy” for the closure…
http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/csArticles/articles/000001/000165.htm (http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/csArticles/articles/000001/000165.htm)


Meanwhile, the Society of Homeopaths doesn’t seem to have caught up with the news – it still seems to be busy "celebrating 60 years of homeopathy on the NHS":

The Society of Homeopaths supports the provision of homeopathy on the National Health Service which has been available since its creation on July 5 1948.

And The Society welcomes the latest Government review of the NHS which sets out a future with more patient choice, more community-led services…..(etc.)

http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/whats-new/press-releases.aspx (http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/whats-new/press-releases.aspx)

[Mojo]

Meanwhile, the Society of Homeopaths doesn’t seem to have caught up with the news – it still seems to be busy "celebrating 60 years of homeopathy on the NHS"


Well, they are celebrating "patient choice" there, so they must be delighted that the PCT has respected the wishes of the 66% of patients who didn't support funding of homoeopathy.