Completely inexplicable freaky incident

[Tin Lizzie]

Hello you skeptic lot :smiley:

Thought i would put this on a fresh thread, so any misunderstandings from other threads can hopefully remain in those threads.

I want to share with you a very spooky thing that happened to a friend and myself. As you know i am a 'believer', that is i practice communication with the spirit world (but i am not a medium) and know (okay, for an easy life...'believe') the spirit world exists. I have seen ghosts but i know and agree with some of the scientific explanations for this phenomena and don't wish to elaborate on this here.

I would love to know of any serious explanations for what i am about to describe. That is, explanations without debatably humorous reference to my mental state :cheesy:, and definitely without reference to my chosen profession <IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">


My friend and i were driving along a country road when i had to stop for a 'comfort break'. i walked a good 50 metres away from the lay-by and stopped next to a row of small trees. as i looked up i saw 5 dead rabbits impaled on a tree. the branches of the tree were thin, with many sub-branches of twig-like proportions. these rabbits were impaled on sparate sub-branches, high enough to be well out of human reach but low enough so that they would have had to be slid along and down several sub-branches to get where they were. basically, i can not see how this could have happened - through human hands or through heavy wind, or through other animals.

My friend was as frightened as i was and we did a sharp exit, not talking for some time. i was a 'non-believer at the time, as was my friend. to this day i can not explain how it was that those dead rabbits had been positioned where they were.

Has anyone seen/heard of anything similar, or can anyone end my years of contemplation on this with a single paragraph?

Serious explanations only please O0

[Cuddles]

People did it. Gosh, that was terribly hard to explain.

[Tin Lizzie]

People did it. Gosh, that was terribly hard to explain.

;D this is where you have to see it. it was completely impossible for people to do - not only were the rabbits far too high for even a pro basketball player to reach, they were also impaled so far down, and past several sub-branches, that it would have required sliding different parts of each rabbit down different branches and assembling them together again. sorry! O0

[chillzero]

People with ladders did it.

[Araneus]

;D this is where you have to see it. it was completely impossible for people to do - not only were the rabbits far too high for even a pro basketball player to reach,

So it is completely impossible for any human being to access part of a tree that is out of their reach from the ground? I suppose professional tree surgeons must all be 100 feet tall?

they were also impaled so far down, and past several sub-branches, that it would have required sliding different parts of each rabbit down different branches and assembling them together again.Or cutting the rabbit in half, wrapping it around the branch and sewing/sticking/tying it back together to look like it was impaled. Totally impossible. ::)

[vbloke]

This is a common thing for poachers to do.

They're high up enough so that passing animals can't get at them and difficult to remove, so others can't easily get at them without destroying the carcass.

Animals like Rabbits (and most game animals) need to be "hung" for several days in order for the meat to soften, otherwise they're too tough to eat.

[Tin Lizzie]

This does sound like the most feasible option to me, but my friend and i noted that they weren't 'hung', and yes i have seen examples of this. They were impaled on branches of twig-like proportions, imagine a horizontal Y branch leading down to another branch. how can something be moved from one of the 'forks' of the Y down to another branch, and so on several times, without snapping these branches?

[John Jackson]

My thoughts are that it's likely to be a baiting technique for birds.

A farmer may want to get rid of crows etc. or perhaps a photographer or a researcher may want to see certain birds of prey.

I would think that placing bait in a tree is an ideal way of baiting birds, whether you want to shoot them with a gun or a camera, whilst ensuring that foxes etc. don't take the bait instead.

I don't know; but I'd be looking to discount an explanation like this one before turning to more spooky ones.

But that's skeptics for you! ;)

[Tin Lizzie]

:smiley: i'm not jumping to any conclusions whatsoever. I've seen some of the poachers' techniques - some are pretty grisly - 'twas just the whole mechanics of getting the reabbits to where they were.

I'll go with the poachers theory...for an easy life ::)

[Legaleagle]

Ah, the same old believer logic I have seen on so many other forums. The old "If I don't know who did it/how it was done it then it must have been Caspar" syndrome. Good to know some things don't change.

As an old buddy of mine used to put it:

1) I have seen something I can't explain
2) I believe in ghosts
3) This thing I have seen must be a ghost

Why the hell would Caspar want to kill bunnies and attach them to trees anyway?::)

[Tin Lizzie]

er.....i never ever thought or said that it was a ghost.

There was a nearby derelict farmhouse which had been used by satanists - pentacles & suchlike everywhere.

My only thoughts were that they could have had something to do with this

It was poachers. Case closed, so no need to imply i'm thinking of caspar, is there? O0

[Melanie]

Pentacles and suchlike could just as easily - and more likely - be remnants from a pagan gathering and they most definitely wouldn't have been responsible for anything connected to animal murder.

[Tin Lizzie]

I understand that pentacles aren't unique to devil-worship. It was the inscribed '666' etc.... anyway....:cheesy:

[Legaleagle]

I understand that pentacles aren't unique to devil-worship. It was the inscribed '666' etc.... anyway....:cheesy:

Why in your original post did you state that "i can not see how this could have happened - through human hands or through heavy wind, or through other animal" if you thought it was the satanists all along. Clearly, satanists are humans.

[Matt]

Regarding the getting the bodies past the Y shaped branches:

If this would have required a stepladder to reproduce (discounting climbing the tree) then it's a fair guess that you didn't get to examine too closely.

Were I to want to reproduce this (and I spent too many years with the nickname "rabbit" to even eat rabbit pie, so it's unlikely that I would) I'd cut branches and sharpen the base. I might leave the extra offshoots to help the stake hang amongst the other branches.

Were my motivation simply to produce an inexplicable effect I might even graft the branch back onto the tree.

More likely is that the rabbits were hung on wire. Somehow it might be possible at a distance to mistake the wire for thin branches.

[Tin Lizzie]

Regarding the getting the bodies past the Y shaped branches:

If this would have required a stepladder to reproduce (discounting climbing the tree) then it's a fair guess that you didn't get to examine too closely.

Were I to want to reproduce this (and I spent too many years with the nickname "rabbit" to even eat rabbit pie, so it's unlikely that I would) I'd cut branches and sharpen the base. I might leave the extra offshoots to help the stake hang amongst the other branches.

Were my motivation simply to produce an inexplicable effect I might even graft the branch back onto the tree.

More likely is that the rabbits were hung on wire. Somehow it might be possible at a distance to mistake the wire for thin branches.

thanks for the input matt, i appreciate tis is a tad bizarre, but i assure you that i did get a close enough look to see that the bunnies were impaled. my mate vouched for this (ooh! a double anecdote!) :smiley: it's a tough one to describe.

[Tin Lizzie]

People with ladders did it.

:ponder:

possible - rather them than me, and their motivation? :cheesy:

[Matt]

thanks for the input matt, i appreciate tis is a tad bizarre, but i assure you that i did get a close enough look to see that the bunnies were impaled. my mate vouched for this (ooh! a double anecdote!) :smiley: it's a tough one to describe.

Don't suppose you had a camera on you?

How close did you get and by what method? How fresh were the rabbits?

[Tin Lizzie]

Don't suppose you had a camera on you?

How close did you get and by what method? How fresh were the rabbits?

sadly no camrea - this was about 12-13 year ago, if that makes any diff.

right this comes down to memory.....the trees were on a slope. i was stood at the very bottom of the slope, about a metre - no more than 2 metres - from the outermost branches on my side. 'as the crow flies' the fluffy ones were about 5 metres, probably less, from me. they were fresh, no sign of bones etc & still looking nicely meaty although i couldn't accurately discern the condition of their eye sockets

[Matt]

sadly no camrea - this was about 12-13 year ago, if that makes any diff.

right this comes down to memory.....the trees were on a slope. i was stood at the very bottom of the slope, about a metre - no more than 2 metres - from the outermost branches on my side. 'as the crow flies' the fluffy ones were about 5 metres, probably less, from me. they were fresh, no sign of bones etc & still looking nicely meaty although i couldn't accurately discern the condition of their eye sockets

Ok then, I've just propped a cuddly toy on a sick and walked five metres away to get an idea of how accurately you'd be able to see the bunnies. I'm prepared to accept that they were more likely hung on branches than wires. I wouldn't accept that you could be certain that the branches were still attached to the rest of the tree. Especially when looking through three metres of other branches. I know you haven't explicitly said that and have even accepted poachers as a reasonable explanation but I felt the need to make the point.

The freshness of the rabbits is consistent with rabbit being hung (perhaps by a technique your unfamilar with) or being placed as bait/lures.

Obviously the time since the event affects the accuracy of your memories though a certian amount of doubt can be placed even on fresh memories.

[Tin Lizzie]

this may sound sad, but i stood there and traced the path of the branches; i wanted to make absolutely certain of it.

anyway, it's relieving to know i'm not the only fella with cuddly toys in his possession O0

[Matt]

this may sound sad, but i stood there and traced the path of the branches; i wanted to make absolutely certain of it.

Well I do have to quesiton how certain you can be from a distance of 5 metres looking through at least 3 metres of other branches.

anyway, it's relieving to know i'm not the only fella with cuddly toys in his possession O0

It was my son's toy - mine is much larger than a rabbit and she doens't like being called a toy ^-^

[Tin Lizzie]

Well I do have to quesiton how certain you can be from a distance of 5 metres looking through at least 3 metres of other branches.

Okay i'll come clean: i'm made from balsa wood and my nose is about 15 feet long

It was my son's toy - mine is much larger than a rabbit and she doens't like being called a toy ^-^

Damn.

[Tin Lizzie]

...still haven't mastered this editing / quoting thing...

[tkingdoll]

Tin Lizzie - why did your opening post have the preamble about your paranormal beliefs? It read to me like you were/are looking for a paranormal explanation for the rabbits rather than the less exciting mundane one it most likely was.

[Tin Lizzie]

The preamble was there so people know which side of the fence i stand on.
If that's the way you wish to read it, it serves me no purpose to attempt to alter your perception. I do actually wish to hear what sceptics have to say - that way, i may learn something.

[John Jackson]

The preamble was there so people know which side of the fence i stand on.
If that's the way you wish to read it, it serves me no purpose to attempt to alter your perception. I do actually wish to hear what sceptics have to say - that way, i may learn something.

That's interesting as it illustrates the difference in approach between skeptics and believers.

What I see in many of your posts (and this also goes for believers' position in general) is that you approach something unusual from the stance that it is paranormal in nature unless it can be proven otherwise. (Basically the fallacy: Argument to Ignorance (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=argumentum_ad_ignorantiam.php)).

Whereas skeptics (many of whom do not rule out paranormal explanations as a possibility) adopt the stance that we will look for normal explanations and will not contemplate the paranormal explanations until the normal explanations have been ruled out.

Believers have an a priori stance on issues: they believe it's all true and it's only a matter of acquiring evidence/proof to confirm this.

Skeptics take an a posteriori stance on issues: they will not accept that something is true unless evidence/proof exists to confirm it.

Of course, the skeptics' position is the logically sound one. ;)


Then there's the issue of what constitutes evidence.

Skeptics want to see tangible or empirical evidence: evidence that can be checked by 3rd parties and which stands up to independent scrutiny. They are aware of the unreliable nature of personal testimony due to the undoubted fallibility of the human senses and perception and so will not accept personal anecdote as quality evidence no matter how honestly the claimant is making their claim.

Believers only need to 'see it for themselves'. This, of course, makes the invalid assumption that human perception is infallible. If they've seen it or experienced it for themselves then it must be true! Naturally, this is powerful 'evidence' on a personal level but that doesn't mean that whatever they experienced is objectively real.


And so to motivation.

Skeptics are looking to acquire knowledge: are these things real or not? If not, why do people believe them? Etc.

Believers want to believe (surprisingly)! They're constructing a belief system, often for emotional reasons, and all they're doing is looking to confirm their beliefs - not test them or question them in any serious way.

I guess the last paragraphs there explain why believers and skeptics can argue/debate all day and no-one really learns much from the opposing camp. We may be looking at the same issues but we do so for completely different reasons.

Anyway, that's how it looks to me from my skeptical position. O0

[Tin Lizzie]

That's interesting as it illustrates the difference in approach between skeptics and believers.

What I see in many of your posts (and this also goes for believers' position in general) is that you approach something unusual from the stance that it is paranormal in nature unless it can be proven otherwise. (Basically the fallacy: Argument to Ignorance (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=argumentum_ad_ignorantiam.php)).


Thanks for setting up the sceptical side of things.

You are right (although I have on several occasions already stated that I find it difficult to be objective on matters of spirit) that I approach things which I suspect may have spiritual influence to the end of proving them as such, however this does not mean, as can surely see, that by default I intend to rubbish any alternative explanations. 'Argument to ignorance' does work both ways.

I see parallels here in the differences between certain religions; some believe in one god, and they have their own beliefs and ways of respecting their god, yet these days there are people from christianity, judaism and islam who believe that we all ultimately worship the same god.

It was a scientist who said 'science is as much about a study of what we cannot see as it is a study of what we can see'. Communicating with the spirit world involves senses that are difficult to describe let alone measure. How do you devise a scale for measuring love? How could you record the frequency at which a spirit's energy vibrates? Given the vast range in our own senses, how can two people ever possibly share exactly the same experience?

If you ask any true medium whether they know of or believe in the spirit world, the answer will be the former. This is hard to grasp for those who have not shared their experiences, pleasant or otherwise, and this will always be the root of the sceptics lack of 'evidence'. There are many fair logical questions, but as I have seen on this forum a person's logic may lead them to miss opportunities and discard potential knowledge on the assumption that it must be imaginary.

Being sensitive to spirit does not mean you have no sense of judgement. When communicating with my own guides, I am often all too aware of sensations, inner voices and thoughts which may easily be taken as 'spirit' talk. If I was to act on every sensation and listen to every voice, I would never have time to live my own life and my behaviour would be at odds with itself; my actions and thoughts would contradict each other.

You seem to think, as several others do, that 'believers' in some way look down on the sceptical community. Whilst I personally do pity those who can not at least acknowledge the possibility of spirit, I actually have respect for people who do not take things for granted and prefer to question things. Those are qualities which, believe it or not, I share with such people.

[chillzero]

Well I do have to quesiton how certain you can be from a distance of 5 metres looking through at least 3 metres of other branches.


I reckon they could have been draped over branches, or cut into and 'slotted' on, which would make them appear to be impaled from a distance.

[Tin Lizzie]

I reckon they could have been draped over branches, or cut into and 'slotted' on, which would make them appear to be impaled from a distance.

Quite honestly, and i appreciate youor response to what probably seems like a comical request for info, I really don't know what to think!

Who would do such a thing? Someone with fine sewing skills and far too much spare time no doubt

[Araneus]

Quite possibly it was the satanists; draping dead rabbits over tree branches would not seem that unusual for some teenage Goths who think that writing 666 in pentagrams is going to change the world.

[Tin Lizzie]

:smiley: I don't know...

[chillzero]

Quite honestly, and i appreciate youor response to what probably seems like a comical request for info, I really don't know what to think!

Who would do such a thing? Someone with fine sewing skills and far too much spare time no doubt

Why sewing?

I don't think you were close enough to see in detail whether the animals were impaled, draped, or hacked up and shoved haphazzardly onto the branches. My point is that they may have appeared to be impaled, but possibly were not.

[Tin Lizzie]

Why sewing?

I don't think you were close enough to see in detail whether the animals were impaled, draped, or hacked up and shoved haphazzardly onto the branches. My point is that they may have appeared to be impaled, but possibly were not.

Well there were piercings in the flesh with small pieces of blood. Of course this was just how it appeared, but I may as well have been standing on titan for all the good it did me :smiley: