Psychics and missing people. [Archive]

John Jackson

26th February 2006, 06:10 PM

I noticed this thread on Randi's forum: Psychics and missing people (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52101)

Psychics love to claim that they are "helping" people like the police and families of missing persons. I've always found this claim to be somewhat sanctimonious, especially because they claim that the police or the families ask for their assistance.

What we've seen with the thread linked to above however, is that many of these psychics are acting in a predatory way; using an emotional appeal to guilt being particularly manipulative.

Psychics have never shown that they have any ability at all when it comes to finding missing people and have demonstrated (and tried to hide the fact) that they can give completely inaccurate and damaging information. See Claus Larsen's article on Skeptic Report: http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/psitechsmart.htm

I don't know the extent of this problem here in the UK, but it's worth looking into. These people are taking money, giving false hope, false information, and possibly damaging information, yet there's no proof that thay can do what they claim (other than with their retrospective claims).

Surely there's a case for the pathetically weak Fraudulent Mediums Act (1951) to be overhauled and expanded to deal with problems such as this?

Eddiesilence

27th February 2006, 03:40 PM

Hi,

It is often claimed by ‘psychics’ that their services are often used, and in high demand by the police. This claim is particularly topical at the moment, with the screening of Channel 5’s irresponsible game show: ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge.’

One of my friends recently tried to use this silly programme as an argument for the validity of ‘psychic’ ability, citing the ‘psychic’ Diane Lazarus as an example of someone whose services have been used often by police.

Firstly, here’s a quote about psychic detectives which I lifted from Robert Todd Carroll’s excellent ‘Skeptic’s Dictionary.’ (You can find the quote and the context here: http://www.skepdic.com/psychdet.html):

"These guys don't solve cases, and the media consistently gets it wrong," says Michael Corn, an investigative producer for "Inside Edition" who produced a story last May debunking psychic detectives. Moreover, the FBI and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children maintain that to their knowledge, psychic detectives have never helped solve a single missing-person case.

"Zero. They go on TV and I see how things go and what they claim but no, zero," says FBI agent Chris Whitcomb. "They may be remarkable in other ways, but the FBI does not use them" ("Prophet Motive," Brill's Content, November 27, 2000).

But while Chris Whitcomb provides us with the information that the FBI eschews psychic detectives, that doesn’t say much about whether UK police forces use such charlatans. So I thought I would ask them myself.

I sent the following letter to the forty five or so police forces in the United Kingdom who are contactable by email. Many of the responses I received acknowledged my letter, and promised to provide information under the Freedom of Information Act, for which there would be a charge (probably quite steep). But so far, I have received seven instructive personal replies from very helpful officers, which follow beneath my letter:

Here’s the letter I sent:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been intrigued by the recent television series on Channel Five, which is supposedly testing the claims of people who claim to possess psychic abilities. The television programme, entitled ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge’ has asserted that police forces routinely use such ‘psychics’ to assist in solving crimes.

I would like to discover where, when and to what public cost such ‘psychics’ have been deployed, and so to this end I have checked with Hansard. It appears that two questions have been asked of Hazel Blears in the House of Commons, by Lynne Featherstone and Simon Hughes. Ms. Blears responded, saying records are not kept centrally, and that the use of ‘psychics’ was a matter solely for the commissioners of respective police forces in the UK.

With this understanding in mind, would it be possible for you to provide details of where, when and at what cost such psychics have been used - if at all - within your force’s jurisdiction? If psychics have been used, might I ask whether their input was useful?

E. Silence

Here are the personal responses I have received so far; and I expect to receive several more (I can provide email addresses should anyone wish!). As you will see, it seems Mystic Meg is currently collecting her Jobseekers’ Allowance…

DEVON AND CORNWALL CONSTABULARY

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:28

Devon & Cornwall Constabulary do not use the "services" of psychics and any persons offering such services are routinely declined.

SURREY POLICE

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 07:52

We do not/have not used this method.

Jonathan Edwards, HQ Registry

CITY OF LONDON POLICE

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:11

Dear Sir or Madam, for your information, psychics have never been used by
the City of London Police to my knowledge.

Kieron Sharp, Detective Chief Superintendent

METROPOLITAN POLICE

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:16

Thank you for your email - I have passed this to the Freedom of Information Unit but as far as I know we have not and do not use psychics.

EMail Office, New Scotland Yard

DURHAM POLICE

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:53

Durham Police does not use and would not seek the use of a Psychic for
Investigations.

Ian Scott, D/Ch/Superintendent, CID

KENT POLICE

Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:45

I refer to your request for information on Psychics. We do not keep records of persons who contact police in such circumstances to offer information in a readily searchable form. It would be almost inconceivable for Kent Police to have paid a person purporting to have psychic powers for their assistance.

In my personal experience as a police officer with 30 years service, in the aftermath of a major crime many people offer information, as witnesses, psychics or experts. All information is evaluated and considered. Personally, I have never found a person claiming to have psychic abilities to have been of benefit to an investigation.

Kevin Turner, Detective Chief Superintendent

NORFOLK POLICE

Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:54

To my knowledge, there would be no way of keeping records on matters of this nature as they would be individual policy decisions made by individual Senior Investigating Officers. I have no knowledge of them being formally used in Norfolk, although many psychics often write in with their varying suggestions when a high profile incident takes place. The Psychic Challenge on Channel 5 has provoked a lot of people to call in with suggestions to unsolved cases and these are forwarded to the relevant investigating officers. This evidence has no credibility although it may point to a line of enquiry otherwise not thought of.

Sgt Ed Brown, Norfolk Police

John Jackson

27th February 2006, 04:41 PM

Great work there Eddie. O0

Psychics who claim to be "helping" or "working with" the police do exactly what some of your respondents have indicated: they contact the police with their information; it's not the other way round.

That's a good point too about using taxpayers' money. If a police force were to use psychics, they would have to justify spending our money on them. That would mean that the psychics would have to get positive results.

Eddiesilence

28th February 2006, 08:37 PM

Another sane copper speaks. I feel a pattern is developing...

WARWICKSHIRE POLICE

Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:10

To my knowledge, no psychic has been used to assist any serious crime within
Warwickshire. We do get correspondence or telephone calls from people
claiming to be mediums or psychic and offering their views or assistance in
relation to specific investigations that have appeared in the media, but I
would not advocate using them. The police deal in factual evidence
admissible in a Court of law and all such evidence must be credible and
tangible.

Ken Lawrence, Detective Superintendent

Muse

28th February 2006, 09:59 PM

Eddie - this topic is of particular interest to me and I applaud you for taking the initiative in pursuing it. :)

Diane Lazarus is only one of a long list of psychics claiming to have regularly worked with the police. Isn't it depressing how the claims always emanate from the psychic and not the police! Certainly the police do not actively seek it.

The psychic inevitably inveigles their way into the family first - with one eye on a media opportunity rather than give the 'information' direct to the police. If the information is so important why delay?

Understandably UK forces are cool towards psychics. The Association of Chief Police Officers in their 'Guidance to Missing Persons' urges great care saying, "Information from psychics will also be received and can create pressures for searches to be made of those areas. Such information be treated with extreme caution and evaluated against the prevailing circumstances".

While I'm not aware of any UK police force conducting research into the viability of using psychics, I do know that the Los Angeles Police Department did several years ago. They had hoped that psychics may be used to increase the Department's effectiveness, save time, manpower, and funds. A brief resume of the studies (they conducted two in all) can be found here. (http://www.totse.com/en/technology/science_technology/lapd.html) Its results confirm what I think we already know of the psychic's method, ie. that psychics throw a huge amount of information which when pared down may have some 'hits' yet no more than could be expected by chance. The public perception that psychics could provide useful help to police departments stemmed from the presentation of these claims by the psychics themselves seeping into the public consciousness. As a result LAPD abandoned the idea.

Recent conversations with Debra Glaser, Chief Psychologist LAPD have indicated that this position still stands contradicting local psychics who, as to be expected, persist in claiming otherwise.

Eddiesilence

28th February 2006, 11:32 PM

Thanks for that excellent link, Muse. I was unaware of those particular tests, so there’s some more data in my armoury…

This whole correspondence was inspired by one of my friends who really should know better, telling me that I must watch the ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge’ TV show, “because psychic detectives are *finally* being scientifically tested, at long last”.

I confess to a shrill response: “Science, my arse. It’s bloody Trisha ‘Jerry Springer’ Goddard, for crying out loud”.

She replied, no, I was mistaken: there *has* to be some truth to the abilities of psychic detectives; after all, why would the police use them if there wasn’t? Now, I know that some of my friends like to imagine that the wacky old US of A uses psychics to assist with police enquiries, but I suspect that’s not so much a real belief as a juvenile desire to ridicule Americans, encouraged by the X-Files, and compounded by the kind of Americans who spend their time doing their level best to make satirists redundant (e.g. George Bush, Pat Robertson, Charlton Heston, Ann Coulter, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jackie Stallone, etc., etc., ad nauseum...)

However, this particular friend of mine was being straight up, and moreover, she was talking about sensible, sober Britain. She was very sure that our police use psychics, even if the Yanks don’t. I looked at her long and hard for signs of irony or sarcasm, but no, she really thought this one was true. After all, Diane Lazarus was pretty convincing, wasn’t she?

Far from it, I thought. I immediately resolved to find out for myself which police forces used such people as delusionals, fraudsters or delusional fraudsters, and present the evidence to her. (I’ve got to say that it sure is a pain in the arse having to find out what I we already knew.)

Needless to say, my prediction was that I would receive a full complement of responses declaring 'psychic detection' to be either A) hogwash, B) tosh, C) nonsense, or D) bullshit. As we have seen, I was indeed a prophet in that I scored all four hits in every single case. I showed her the replies I have received so far, and her slippery response was an exercise in goalpost moving:

“Yeah, but we know that the police are liars. Look at the Birmingham Six. Besides, they wouldn’t want to admit it anyway, because then they’d look stupid and they have their image to think of.”

Unh? There’s no second guessing irrationality, eh? I couldn’t get my head around this. Illogic, if I ever heard it. I couldn’t get past these scenarios:

1. If psychic detectives are real, why would the cops think they’d look stupid for using a proven method of inquiry?

2. In order for police to think they might suffer PR fallout for using psychics, they’d have to believe that psychics are not credible, which means they would not use them.

Don’t people say silly things to save face?

By the way, with regard to the Fraudulent Mediums Act, I agree with you Admin. We need to firm up the law regarding such frauds, and at the very least we need to get the 1951 act enforced. Since we clamp down hard on people who practise medicine without the required education and licensing, by the same token we should treat ‘psychics’ with the same gravitas that we treat other fraudsters and quacks...

Eddiesilence

1st March 2006, 05:26 PM

Another response, this time from Scotland:

DUMFRIES & GALLOWAY

Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:04

Whilst it is not the policy of Dumfries & Galloway Constabulary to use 'psychics'in criminal investigations, information from ‘psychics’ could from time to time be volunteered.

I am not aware of any information having been provided by a 'psychic' which has contributed to the evidence chain of a police investigation, however, any information provided is carefully assessed and considered before being pursued.

Since these facilities have not been used there have been no related cost implications to the public of Dumfries and Galloway.

I trust that this is helpful

Jane Buckley, Executive Support

Muse

1st March 2006, 07:06 PM

I’ve always been intrigued by the contradiction occasionally encountered whereby an experienced officer praises the efforts of a psychic - inevitably produced with a flourish on some psychic’s web site (see Diane Lazarus (http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/invest_1.php) and Keith Charles (http://www.keithcharlesmedium.com/kcpolice.htm)) and other scenarios, already demonstrated, where other experienced officers flatly deny their use.

Jackie Malton, Britain’s Psychic Challenge and apparently the inspiration for the character Jane Tennison in Prime Suspect, was a very good example of how psychics can fool even the most experienced police officer. To this day I’m still not sure if she realises how illogical she appeared during her efforts to defend all manner of mystic nonsense against the sceptics in the show. She continued to champion Diane Lazarus’ ‘remarkable abilities’ to the end completely convinced of magical powers at work. How can this be?

There are several reasons;

- The psychic employs prior knowledge (hot reading) or cold reading techniques to garner verbal or non-verbal clues from the listener. This may seem impressive by confirming something of what is already known to officers but cannot yield anything new.
- Often psychic accuracy cannot be verified until after the investigation is concluded. Then it is an easy matter for the psychic to retrofit or match their own fragments of information into the real picture so forming copious ‘hits’. Psychic ‘information’ is remarkably vague; for example, a number or feature such as trees or water can be made to fit almost any interpretation of the events as they transpired.
- Social and psychological factors ie belief systems, which may predispose anyone including a police officer to accept the accuracy of this information. It has even been known for some police officers to unwittingly help the psychic convert a ‘miss’ into a ‘hit’!
- The fallibility of human memory - it only takes a little filling in of the blanks courtesy of subjective validation and even a police office can be completely taken in especially when combined with other factors mentioned above.

The hard facts are that a psychic has never provided any new information, which directly led the police to a crime scene, missing person or perpetrator– there is no credible scientific evidence to show that psychic ability has ever solved a crime. Success can only be achieved by hard work and due diligence making it the more galling when some psychic in need of having their ego massaged claims the credit for months or even years of leg work done by dedicated officers.

As for the Fraudulent Mediums Act – I’m not sure that it can be tightened up. Its very name suggests that there are genuine mediums out there when the ability itself has yet to be scientifically established. But that’s a whole new discussion for a bright shiny new thread. ;) :)

John Jackson

1st March 2006, 09:09 PM

I notice that on Diane Lazarus's site, the policewoman is thanking Diane for assistance, support, time, and concern; but there's no mention that Diane actually led the police to the body or indeed that she did anything of real use. It's a carefully worded piece.

This whole issue of psychics “helping the police” is simply a misleading Argument to Authority.

The psychics are using the police as an infallible authority to lend weight to their claims. The first point to note is that the police are human. Jackie Malton, a former detective chief inspector, certainly showed that she is far from infallible for example.

Even if a police inspector did call in a psychic, it would not logically follow that the psychic was therefore genuine. The more likely conclusion would be that the inspector was mistaken. The police are an authority on police work – not psychic ability.

That’s the claim dealt with. I must say though, that the responses that Eddie has received indicate that the claims are coming from the psychics and not the police who seem to be uninterested in using psychics’ dubious “services”.

Muse

1st March 2006, 09:33 PM

While the police and the skeptics know the truth, the question remains what can be done to counter psychic spin so everyone else knows too?

Education holds the key........ Any plans to write an article based on your findings Eddie? ;) :)

Eddiesilence

4th March 2006, 02:30 PM

Hi Muse,

No plans just yet, since I want to collect all the responses from the Police Forces which write back. There's a thirty-day time limit during which police must respond under the Freedom of Information Act, so I'll have a better picture by the end of March. I also need to immerse myself in some further study of specific cases of 'psychic detection' in order to find out what actually happened, rather than what was claimed...

Cheers!

Muse

4th March 2006, 03:24 PM

Eddie - I was hoping you'd say that* :)

Do you have any plans to look at Diane Lazarus?

If so, here’s a few articles that have appeared in the press about her claims since 2003. In addition to the usual clairvoyant stuff, she now runs a psychic detective agency describing herself as a 'psychic consultant'. She is assisted by former ex detective sergeant Peter Hall. I see she's even claimed to have helped the police with the Jill Dando murder.

Maybe worth looking into as she seems to be the new rising star of the psychic world and has been offered her own show on Five.

Psychic `sees' girl's murderer after more than 50 years
Apr 3 2003
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=12803154%26method=full%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

Psychic hears words of sex-shop killer
May 5 2004
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=14210464%26method=full%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

Lazarus returns to hear the dead
Jun 12 2004
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=14325567%26method=full%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

Things that go bonk in the night
Nov 6 2005
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16338938%26method=full%26siteid=50082-name_page.html

Eddiesilence

7th March 2006, 08:00 PM

Thanks for those Muse, I'll be checking out those links, as well as checking with Lazarus' website.

Meanwhile, I've just received a second, very interesting response from the Metropolitan Police. The Met has admitted to a psychic playing a major part in a murder inquiry, in the case of Thomas 'Ginger' Marks, who disappeared in 1965. According to the records in the National Archives, he was possibly shot in Bethnal Green, but the alleged murderers were acquitted.

The letter from the Met is below, in which they admit that the only case the Metropolitan Police can cite in which a psychic 'played a major part' remains unsolved after 41 years. What a surprise.

I have contacted the National Archives for further details of this case...

METROPOLITAN POLICE

Tue, 7 Mar 2006 16:30:32 +0000

Thank you for your recent enquiry concerning the use of psychics by the police. We have conducted a search of our indexes but have been unable to identify any relevant records relating to any official use of psychics. There is, however, a historical case where this played a major part. This case related to the disappearance of Thomas Alfred MARKS in 1965. The records relating to this case are now held by The National Archives at Kew under the references MEPO 2/10551 to MEPO 2/10558. The tape recording is under the last reference, MEPO 2/10558. This particular record is available but some parts of the record are closed as it remains an unsolved case. Enquiries regarding access to this record should be directed to The National Archives, whose catalogues can be accessed online at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

Yours sincerely

Andrew Brown, Assistant Departmental Record Officer

Muse

7th March 2006, 08:48 PM

How very interesting - good luck with your research.

Further to Diane Lazarus - IcWales (see link below) is also reporting today, that she is apparently about to fly to Ireland, at the invitation of an Irish TV company to help find missing County Down man Martin Kelly and hopes to get her own show on home of the befuddled and confused, Living TV.

It seems that since coming top of the heap in BPC, she has become inundated with TV and radio offers as well as requests from the familes of missing persons. Am I alone in finding this very sad and disturbing?

Anyway - the Martin Kelly case may be worth following up.

Source Article (http://tinyurl.com/m4n8f)

Eddiesilence

8th March 2006, 11:49 AM

Well, well, well.

It looks like the case of Thomas ‘Ginger’ Marks, which was unsolved despite the use of a psychic, was a gangland hit:

http://www.madfrankiefraser.co.uk/frankiefraser.htm?story/marks.htm~mainFrame

According to ‘Mad’ Frankie Fraser, Freddie Foreman killed Marks after abducting him outside Repton Boys Club. Apparently, Foreman now admits to killing Marks, assisted by the capable hands of Alfie Gerard.

Bearing in mind that the psychic interviewed by the police failed to solve the case, I shall tentatively conclude that the scoreline is as follows:

Psychics - 0

Eddie - 1

chillzero

10th March 2006, 11:30 PM

Muse, from your last link:

"And according to Diane her daughter, a part-time model who is this year's Miss Llanelli, drew partially on her contact with the spirit world to pass her GCSEs with some A stars."

I am so torn - I would love to advocate reporting this to exam authorities, but I don't want to give the claim any credibility!

Eddiesilence

11th March 2006, 12:28 PM

I'd report it - Psychic cheating is still cheating. There need be no investigation, since Diane has admitted it already!

Interesting how Diane said that her daughter gained 'some' A stars. Not a complete run of A's then? Wassup with that - did the spirit she channeled have a good knowledge of physics and chemistry, but knew sod all about English Lit.?

Eddiesilence

13th March 2006, 10:05 PM

Hey, I just thought I'd ask Diane a question. Feel free to get any of your missing-person questions answered by Diane, by emailing her at: dianelazarus1@hotmail.co.uk

Here's my request:

Dear Diane,

I was impressed with your success on Channel 5's Britain's Psychic Challenge.

In light of your ability, I feel that you could save many, many lives by answering just one question:

Where is Osama Bin Laden?

Please respond,

E Silence

Let's see what she says...

Meanwhile, perhaps some of you could also put her to work; I doubt if I am the only one here interested in learning the location of, say, Glen Miller, Lord Lucan, or even whether Elvis is alive and if so, where he might be found...

Muse

14th March 2006, 01:50 PM

I'd settle for her finding Ben Needham for a start.

Then what about Jimmy Hoffa missing 1975, Shandra Levy missing 2001 and Natalie Holloway missing 2005 - all huge US missing persons cases.

If psychics had any true ability they'd never be out of work. Instead they serve only to rub salt in the wounds of the families concerned.

Muse

14th March 2006, 04:11 PM

I now see that Diane is currently in the process of looking for missing Irishman Martin Kelly and is offering some pronouncements to his distraught mother.

Check this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803388.stm

I can't tell you how angry this makes me. >:(

chillzero

14th March 2006, 05:44 PM

I mailed the BBC about this one, as follows:

In your report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803686.stm

You state "Diane Lazarus has helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people.".

I feel this is misleading, and should require firmer journalistic handling. At the least, you should state that :"Diane Lazarus claims to have helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people."

There is no documented evidence, anywhere, that any missing person case has been solved by a psychic. When a psychic claims to have helped the police, this is usually in the form of providing "information" - often unverifiable, or vague. The implication is that the BBC supports the use of psychics in locating missing people, when the focus should be on the legitimate efforts of the police. This particular family claim the police have not done enough, and I feel a report on why they feel that - what the police have contributed, and what operational restrictions the police come under - would be much more informative and constructive to others in the same unfortunate position.

I wonder if you will follow this report up with information should Mr Kelly ever re-appear, with a view to verifying any information against what Diane Lazarus said - precise details only. I don't believe any information has been provided that could not have been guessed at by any reasonable person - that he fell in the water, being between a bar and the docks, on a celebratory holiday. I trust that if he turns up alive - and I sincerely hope he does - that you will revisit this report with another, giving the balancing case when the psychic was clearly wrong. People never seem to be given that kind of information - only vague anecdotes of when they were supposedly correct.

John Jackson

14th March 2006, 08:48 PM

Great letter chillzero.

I was just about to fire one off to channel5 too about Britain's Psychic Challenge but I think I'll wait until we get some further news on this matter.

It's quite clear that Lazarus is stating that Martin is dead so that gives me more than one reason that I'd like to see him found alive and well.

Although Lazarus's scenario is, sadly, the most likely, I'd like to hear some replies from the likes of her, Channel5, and the BBC who have both promoted and supported this woman's claims if/when they turn out to be wrong.

chillzero

14th March 2006, 09:25 PM

Well, more annoying is the fact that the area she took the mother to - in a boat - has just been covered by police divers for 2 weeks.

Now, if this is where he is found, she will claim success over a police failure. If he turns up elsewhere, she will claim he had been stuck there, but was clearly freed by the tides at a later date.

I come from Belfast, and the Lagan is pretty yucky - especially round the docks areas, where there is additional pollution from ... the docks!! It wouldn't surprise me if the search teams were unabel to search every single inch, and I don't know how much they allowed for tides, and the river flow.

John Jackson

15th March 2006, 01:22 AM

I won't claim to be 100% up in this area, but isn't it standard practice for "psychics" to go over ground that the police have already covered, especially with underwater searches?

i.e. if the police have been searching an area for a couple of weeks they must have a good reason for doing so. All the psychic has to do is to tell them to keep looking in the same place and any positive result is, naturally, down to the psychic's insight and not down to the difficulty of such searches.

Eddiesilence

15th March 2006, 03:43 AM

Bloomin' Nora, full marks to Diane for responding! In answer to my question about the location of Osama Bin Laden, her one-word reply was as follows:

"Hiding!"

John Jackson

15th March 2006, 12:32 PM

There's a 3-part article which gives a little more detail into Lazarus's claims: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/26587

As she approached the water, Mrs Lazarus broke it to emotional family members that she was sure Martin had "passed" and was now trapped below the water.

With images of a submerged archway recurring in her head, she and the Kelly family then boarded a boat and cruised round the docks looking for such a structure.

Their hour-long trip on the Laganside Company boat identified a number of areas that resembled her description, but, without the help of police divers, the water could not be searched.

[...]

"I am seeing Martin with no marks on him at all and I know his body's trapped and it can't come to the surface. It's in a sort of archway, behind concrete or near concrete with green moss, I sensed that straight away."

[...]

Police boats were on the water again over the weekend continuing the search for Mr Kelly.

That makes it clear that Diane Lazarus is claming that Martin is dead and that his body is trapped under water in a "sort of" archway.

Eddiesilence

15th March 2006, 03:37 PM

Diane emailed me again, after I acknowledged her gracious reply to my question. She informed me that the witty 'hiding' response was actually sent by her PA. Wow, get a load of that - her PA is psychic too! I mean, she must be connected to the world of the paranormal to know something as clear and specific as the notion that Bin Laden is currently 'hiding'.

Having said that, my detective work has thus far only enabled me to narrow down the search for Bin Laden to Waziristan (the most probable location by all accounts).

Hang on - isn't 'Waziristan' closer to a hit than 'hiding'? Of course it is - even had I guessed that Bin was in Surbiton it would actually be a closer answer than 'hiding'. Permit me to update the scoreline so far:

Psychics - 0
Eddie - 2

Meanwhile, Diane went on to say that she enjoyed her PA's reply, but that concerning the location of Bin, quote: "I just might look in to it !!!!!"

Imagine - if she were to spend even five seconds scrying for Bin, them true to form she'd probably claim that she 'helped' the US Military, the CIA, George W. Bush, etc. etc.

Eddiesilence

15th March 2006, 04:04 PM

Police use of Psychic Detectives

Okay, to get back to the main point...

With regard to more serious matters, you will recall that I emailed all the police forces in the UK which are contactable by email, requesting that they provide information with regard to their use of 'psychics' to help solve cases, and at what cost to the public purse.

Here are some more responses received from the respective forces during the past 24 hours. Predictably, we are still to receive any evidence that psychics have been of any use.

I must be quite explicit in saying that every single reponse I have received is right here on this message board; I assure you that there has been no cherry picking or other filtering to support either one view or another. So far, all the data confirms that psychics are not used and that their input is not helpful.

DERBYSHIRE CONSTABULARY

14th March 2006

I can confirm that Derbyshire Constabulary holds NO information in respect of psychics which is relevant to your request.

Stuart Barlow, Freedom of Information Manager

WEST MIDLANDS POLICE

14th March 2006

Extract from a recent letter from David Mirfield, Head of West Midlands Police Major Investigations Unit (MIU):

As head of the West Midlands Police Major Investigation Unit (MIU) we are the team commissioned to tackle the majority of murder investigations within our force area.

We use a variety of specialists to assist the Department during investigations; some are within the team itself while others are experts employed on a consultancy basis. The use of psychics is not a common practice and we do not have what you may call a regular contributor.

I have consulted with all of my senior investigating officers (SIO's), and none can recall using such a person. I have personally received letters on an unsolicited basis from individuals claiming to have information; often these are of little if any value and will not be acted upon.

They can often be misleading and inconsistent with the facts. The investigation of murder is, like all major crimes, merely a systematic approach using standard procedures in a methodical way. They are often complex processes using multiple and concurrent lines of enquiry but again like all crimes the police rely heavily on information it receives, most often from eyewitnesses, other witnesses, and technical and scientific support. We also work very closely with the families of the deceased, his is a sensitive area and often information given by well meaning individuals can cause hurt and often disappointment to the family.

I would never say never as far as the investigation of murder is concerned and of course all information received is treated in the same way and processed through the 'system'. I am not personally aware of any occasion where the use of a psychic has resulted in the detection of a murder.

GLOUCESTERSHIRE CONSTABULARY

Tue, 14 Mar 2006 12:51

My response is that we hold no records and therefore under S1 of the Freedom of Information Act, I have nothing to send you. I have made extensive enquiries of current and past Senior Investigating Officers and although we are aware that some enquiries have considered the use of psychics, there is no recorded evidence of their use here by the Gloucestershire Constabulary.

Richard W. Powell-Chandler, Chief Inspector

LOTHIAN AND BORDERS POLICE

Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:12

I contacted a number of departments and individuals within the Force that it was suggested may have used psychics during investigations. To the best of the officers' knowledge within these departments, many who have been with the Force for over 25 years, psychics have never been employed by Lothian and Borders Police to assist with investigations.

This type of assistance has been offered to the Force, but has never been accepted. The reason for this being that the Procurator Fiscal, who technically directs any investigation, would have to agree to the use of this type of assistance. To use a psychic would also require the police imparting details (evidence) to an individual outside the Force, something that we would only consider in exceptional / extreme circumstances. Lothian and Borders Police obviously look at all aspects of science which can assist, and call upon the services of the former National Crime and Operations Faculty, now the National Centre of Policing Excellence, who hold details of experts in all areas.

Stephanie Laing, Force Information Unit, Lothian and Borders Police

CAMBRIDESHIRE CONSTABULARY

Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:24

We would advise you that Cambridgeshire Constabulary holds no information relevant to your request.

Alison Hayward, Information Access Office, Cambridgeshire Constabulary

SUFFOLK CONSTABULARY

15th March 2006

This Constabulary has not used the services of a psychic in relation to crime investigation

Muse

15th March 2006, 05:17 PM

Great work Eddie.

I particularly like David Mirfield's response.

Eddiesilence

15th March 2006, 05:56 PM

Thanks Muse, and yes, Mirfield's commentary is rather enlightening. His paragraph below deserves to be repeated, since it deals with a central concern, which is that of creating false hope, and its obverse, claiming a family member is dead when in fact they are not. Emphasis has been added:

"[Psychics] can often be misleading and inconsistent with the facts. The investigation of murder is, like all major crimes, merely a systematic approach using standard procedures in a methodical way. They are often complex processes using multiple and concurrent lines of enquiry but again like all crimes the police rely heavily on information it receives, most often from eyewitnesses, other witnesses, and technical and scientific support. We also work very closely with the families of the deceased, this is a sensitive area and often information given by well meaning individuals can cause hurt and often disappointment to the family."

And of course, I may be concluding too early, but Mirfield's verdict below looks as if it is one we may share. Of course, I shan't be concluding until all the evidence is in, but we can see where this is leading:

"I am not personally aware of any occasion where the use of a psychic has resulted in the detection of a murder".

Of course, like my friend said, we must also consider that the police might be misleading us to save face, and indeed they might have legions of psychic detectives in darkened interview rooms staring into their standard police-issue crystal balls...

Muse

15th March 2006, 09:35 PM

At a time like this the Kelly family need to be wrapped in the care and support of their community while the authorities proceed with their enquiries. The disappearance of child at whatever age is every parent’s worst nightmare.

So it pains me greatly to see a self professed ‘psychic’ enter what is already a desperate situation for the family, especially one propelled and promoted by a TV company. Of course we’re told that Ms Lazarus is there to ‘help’ the police but in reality her presence amounts to little more than a cruel stunt designed to gain her maximum exposure at the expense of maximum pain for the Kelly family.

If she is so psychic then why has she not pointed the police directly to Mr. Kelly’s location instead of all the vague utterances we’ve had so far? Why was it necessary for Mrs. Kelly and her family to have to go through the whole harrowing process at all? Why couldn’t Ms Lazarus simply have told the police his whereabouts directly without all the media fuss? Simple. Because even in the darkest situations this mystical magical superstitious nonsense sells. And…..as even the BBC has demonstrated much to its discredit, the media is delighted to peddle this rubbish as fact.

I see that Mrs. Kelly is reported in the Belfast Post as saying, "Diane has given us some hope he will be found soon. At the moment I have no life - we need Martin to come home."

That says it all. How often have we seen a family tormented by unimaginable thoughts, desperate for some kind of hope becoming the foil to a ‘psychic’s’ ambition?

Of course the truth is that our society doesn't need their sort of 'help'. They have yet to provide any high quality information successfully leading to the whereabouts of a single missing person at any time in the past and there’s no reason for that to change some time soon.

Isn’t it about time that the police authorities and the media spoke out about this shocking business? Ever thought how police officers must feel to find their diligent efforts playing second fiddle to a celebrity psychic? This 'psychic detective' myth must be exploded and soon. Then we can all get on with devoting those precious resources where they’re needed most.

Eddiesilence

16th March 2006, 01:52 PM

You will recall from earlier in this thread, that the only case where police have said that the ‘services’ of a ‘psychic detective’ were involved, was that of the disappearance of Thomas ‘Ginger’ Marks back in 1965, which was primarily investigated by the Metropolitan Police of London.

I’ve just received some documents from the National Archives in Kew, and so I can clarify exactly how this transpired.

On Sunday, 10th January 1965, an article appeared in the British newspaper The Sunday Times, regarding the disappearance of Thomas ‘Ginger’ Marks.

In the case of missing people, people who purport to be ‘psychic’ offer their services. This article of 1965 inspired two such ‘psychics’ to volunteer their ‘abilities’. The first of these two offers was volunteered in a telephone call to Oxford police made by Mr John William Vaughan, a technical artist employed at the British Motor Corporation, and a member of the British Society of Dowsers. Vaughan was convinced of his ability to detect ‘radiations’ emanating from the deceased. On the evening of 21st January 1965, Detective Constable Lubbock paid him a visit and took a statement.

Vaughan states: “By the use of my power of divining I determined that Marks had fillings in his teeth. I have determined that he is dead and that he was transported down the River Thames and is at present in the area of Stanford le Hope, Essex. My powers are such that if I had an article of personal clothing, or any particular personal possession and maps of sufficient detail I would be able to trace his movements, and could pin-point his present whereabouts.”

Vaughan closed his statement with a wish that no publicity be afforded him should his offer to help be taken up. The interviewing officer then compiled his report, and sent a memo to the Chief Constable, in which he stated:

“Mr. Vaughan appeared to be a person of sound mind, and is completely rational. He demonstrated his abilities to me and he seems to possess a genuine psychic perception. It is impossible to determine his true ability but he seems convinced that with the correct material he could assist police enquiries.”

It is clear that Mr. Vaughan’s offer was not taken up, since the record of his involvement ends here.

The second offer came from one W. Price Jones, in the form of a letter sent on 1st February to the Metropolitan Police in which Price-Jones says he/she is “a good psychic medium who does psychometry…” Price-Jones clarifies: “the fact that Marks’ spectacle case is available makes this approach an ideal one as the medium could use that as the vital link, and any information thus obtained could, under your eagle scrutiny (sic), be perhaps of incalculable value to your enquiries.” Finally, Price Jones states “I have known cases of psychometry being absolutely correct.”

At this point, the record of psychic involvement in the Metropolitan Police comes to a halt. We can conclude that since 1965, the ‘eagle scrutiny’ of the Met was used for more traditional lines of enquiry.

We can conclude that rather than proving the involvement of a psychic detective in police work, this case appears to be just another case of psychic ‘involvement’ or ‘assistance,’ which in reality merely took the form of the offer of psychic services, which was declined, as is usual.

Eddiesilence

16th March 2006, 08:58 PM

Here are some more responses received today:

HAMPSHIRE CONSTABULARY

15 Mar 2006

I note you seek access to the following information:

Point 1 Where and when psychics have been used by Hampshire Constabulary
Point 2 The cost of psychics to Hampshire Constabulary

Point 1 Your request for information has now been considered and I am not obliged to supply the information you have requested.

Point 2 Hampshire Constabulary has no record of making any payment to psychics.

Rebecca Sheppard, Freedom of Information Officer

DYFED-POWYS POLICE

16 Mar 2006

I am informed that Dyfed Powys Police has never used psychics.

Debby Jones, Information Officer, Dyfed Powys Police Headquarters

HUMBERSIDE POLICE

16 Mar 2006

Humberside Police has no policy in place in relation to the use of 'Psychics' and the Detective Chief Superintendent, who is head of CID, is not aware of any occasion when Humberside Police has used a psychic.

Sarah Whitfield, Information Compliance Assistant

BEDFORDSHIRE POLICE

16th March 2006

Following your request, searches were conducted at Bedfordshire Police. These searches failed to locate any records relating to your request based on the information you provided. Accordingly I have determined that the information to which you seek access is not held by Bedfordshire Police.

Lisa Oliver, Freedom of Information and Policy Officer

DORSET POLICE

16 Mar 2006 17:17

The Director of Investigations informed me that Dorset Police do not keep a record of the use of psychics. Psychics often write to the police about cases that are publicised. ACPO national policy is not to use them. The Director of Investigations confirmed that he has never used them. I am therefore satisfied that Dorset Police hold no information in relation to your request for information.

Melissa Ashdown, Freedom of Information Officer

It is a matter for conjecture why Hampshire constabulary refuses to answer the question as to whether they have used 'psychics', although they deny making any payments to such people.

Eddiesilence

16th March 2006, 10:09 PM

This just in via the old-fashioned Royal Mail:

GREATER MANCHESTER POLICE

13 Mar 2006

I can report that, with regards to your enquiries, a command decision has been taken not to use the services of ‘Psychics’ although GMP will always take appropriate action in respect of any information supplied which may lead to the detection of any criminal offence.

Laura Davies, Information Management Team

I think this brings us to twenty-one police forces which haven't hired psychics. So far none have admitted using their services...

John Jackson

17th March 2006, 08:18 PM

I mailed the BBC about this one, as follows:

In your report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4803686.stm

You state "Diane Lazarus has helped the police in the Republic and in Britain find other missing people.".

Well chillzero,

I don't know if your mailing was directly responsible but the feature now reads: "Diane Lazarus has previously been involved in attempts to find missing people. "

Which is great in that it shows that the BBC will listen to appropriate criticism and amend their articles.

Bad news is that I was going to slag that article off in a commentary entry, and now I can't. :(

_________________________________________________

I first started this thread after seeing KellyJ posting on the JREF forum. She has started a blog about psychics and their involvement with families of missing persons here: http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

There's a contribution from chillzero too here: http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/31606-pmp-personal-journey-from.html

Again chillzero, I must congratulate you on an excellent piece of work. O0

chillzero

17th March 2006, 09:58 PM

Thank you.

And thanks for that info - I wonder if we should give the JREF that good news too. I still think you coud use it, in it's original wording as an example, with a disclaimer that the BBC saw sense and adjusted it correctly. It's a good example of irresponsible journalism re-edited.

I just don't get it. When I believed I had some ability, I would still never have approached one fo these familes. I had dreams that I thought were telling me about missing people, but until I could know with 100% absolute certainty that the information that I thought I had was 100% correct, I would never have risked making things worse for a family like that.

chillzero

17th March 2006, 10:11 PM

EddieSilence,
Have you asked the same qwuestions of any Irish police forces? There are a few listed on Diane Lazarus's site as testimonies. If you haven't I might make a few enquiries there myself

Muse

17th March 2006, 10:18 PM

Great news for all who were concerned enough to write in and complain. :)

I received a reply to my own complaint on the matter yesterday which is curiously marked 'Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way'.

Suffice to say that they realised their error and amended it as already stated. They have also indicated that any future involvement of the psychic will be reported carefully in future.

Skeptics 1
Psychics 0

;)

Eddiesilence

18th March 2006, 01:36 AM

Excellent work Muse! BBC needs to be checked sometimes. Well, more than sometimes, as it goes, particularly with regard to their routine misreporting of the UK's and the USA's lethal foreign policy adventures, but that's a political matter worthy of an entirely different topic...

Chillzero:

I haven't approached the Garda. I did write to the police in the north of Ireland, but they have yet to respond. I reckon it's worth you asking the police in both Northern Ireland and Eire, so we can find out what their policy is...

chillzero

19th March 2006, 04:58 PM

Chillzero:

I haven't approached the Garda. I did write to the police in the north of Ireland, but they have yet to respond. I reckon it's worth you asking the police in both Northern Ireland and Eire, so we can find out what their policy is...

Will do. Thanks.

Eddiesilence

21st March 2006, 03:54 PM

Update:

Here are the latest strikeouts which continue to stack up against so-called 'psychic detectives':

CLEVELAND POLICE

20 Mar 2006

I have made enquiries within Cleveland Police and have established that we have not used pychics in our investigations therefore I am unable to furnish you with any information as we do not hold any.

Judith Ord WPC 1061, FOI Decision Maker, Public Information Unit

HERTFORDSHIRE CONSTABULARY

20 Mar 2006

Extensive enquiries have been made in relation to your request and Hertfordshire Constabulary can confirm that it holds no information relating to the use of psychics.

Kieran Thorpe, Information Compliance Office

CUMBRIA CONSTABULARY

20 March 2006

I have been unable to trace any record of the Constabulary having used a psychic to assist with an investigation.
David Cherry, Data Protection & Freedom of Information Officer, Professional Standards Department

MERSEYSIDE POLICE

20 Mar 2006

Merseyside Police has not deployed psychics to assist in solving crimes.

However, psychics have contacted Merseyside Police in relation to two investigations. The unsolicited information they provided was of no evidential value.

Anna Hodgkinson

Eddiesilence

21st March 2006, 04:09 PM

At this juncture, I thought I would do a quick inventory to present the data in an easy format:

So, to recap: here is my original question, which I emailed to all the police forces in the UK who have email facilities:

"Do you use or have you used psychics, and if so at what public cost?"

And here are the responses arranged in the order they arrived:

THE FOLLOWING DON’T USE AND HAVEN’T USED PSYCHICS:

1. Devon and Cornwall
2. Surrey
3. City of London
4. Metropolitan Police
5. Durham
6. Kent
7. Norfolk
8. Warwickshire
9. Dumfries and Galloway
10. Derbyshire
11. West Midlands
12. Gloucestershire
13. Lothian and Borders
14. Cambridgeshire
15. Suffolk
16. Dyfed-Powys
17. Humberside
18. Bedfordshire
19. Dorset
20. Greater Manchester
21. Cleveland
22. Hertfordshire
23. Cumbria
24. Merseyside

Note: Hampshire opted not to answer the question ‘do you/have you used psychics’, but did assert that they have never given a psychic any money.

It does appear to me that psychics aren't on the winning team, but being fair minded, I shall only tentatively conclude this to be the case...

John Jackson

21st March 2006, 08:19 PM

Actually, what I will do is create a 'reference' section on here and place Eddie's email and the police's replies in it. Then it will be available as one item which can be linked to.

We can also do the same thing with other useful info we get.

I'll wait to see if a few more replies first though.

Mojo

22nd March 2006, 01:28 AM

LOTHIAN AND BORDERS POLICE

Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:12

...

To use a psychic would also require the police imparting details (evidence) to an individual outside the ForceI see that Lothian and Borders Police have a particularly clear understanding of the way "psychics" operate, and in particular the direction that information flows where "psychics" are involved!

John Jackson

22nd March 2006, 01:13 PM

I've set up a reference section and put all of the police replies in one place: http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=57.0

It keeps the info in one place, but also makes it easy to link to from elsewhere.

As more come in I'll update the reference section. O0

Mojo

22nd March 2006, 01:20 PM

chillzero

22nd March 2006, 04:06 PM

Eddiesilence

22nd March 2006, 07:43 PM

'Former policewoman'?

Perhaps she was sacked for using psychics...

John Jackson

22nd March 2006, 08:47 PM

I've just been looking up the Mark Green case that Diane solved. ::) (link (http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/intro_6.php))

It was actually featured on a BBC TV programme about a forensic pathologist. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4415346.stm

I saw the programme, and I don't know how the police were led to the body, but what I can say is: if they had claimed they were led to it by a psychic detective, I would have remembered that!

I have no such recollection.

Again, no Mention of Diane here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1193742,00.html

Although it does explain the remains were buried in the garden of the killer's younger brother. The killer was a BNP supporter, Nazi sympathiser, and a homophobe. As Mark Green was gay, I'm beginning to see how the police could have solved this case without psychic intervention. ;)

chillzero

22nd March 2006, 09:21 PM

Diane now has a regular slot on Chris Bloomers Late Night Lock In, Every Thursday from 10:30 - Late on 96.4FM The Wave. More Details - http://www.thewave.co.uk

Just in case anyone fancies listening in, to see how she does.
:D

Oleron

23rd March 2006, 09:19 AM

I have emailed the Garda Siochana regarding the scanned letter on Diane's website. I'll let you know about any results.

John Jackson

23rd March 2006, 01:10 PM

Thanks Oleron - and welcome. O0

Oleron

23rd March 2006, 01:16 PM

Cheers John.

BTW. Nice place you've got here!

:)

chillzero

23rd March 2006, 01:23 PM

I have emailed the Garda Siochana regarding the scanned letter on Diane's website. I'll let you know about any results.

So far I have a note back that my request is being considered and a member of staff will contact you as soon as possible.

I will post anything else I get from this.

Oleron

23rd March 2006, 04:11 PM

I got the same reply. We're probably causing a panic in the Garda press room!
;D

John Jackson

26th March 2006, 08:59 PM

Here's another article that shows up what and how these psychics work and the harm they can do to people: http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-hazards.htm

They use tabloid newspapers and talk shows to boast about their accomplishments and predict success.

Sadly, that's because the media allow themselves to be used by these predators.

In the end, and despite their protests, there is not even one case of a psychic truly assisting or solving a missing child case. It’s just smoke and mirrors. Their references do not support their claims and law enforcement cannot acknowledge their existence. Instead, their wishful thinking collides with your desperate hope and leaves you diminished.

I'm sure that distraught parents would do anything that increased the chances of their missing person being found. Sadly, many do not realise that these 'psychic detectives' offer absolutely nothing in the way of help, and much in the way of harm.

Muse

27th March 2006, 08:04 PM

Its good that the Klaas Kids Foundation has roundly identified the problem of psychic predators and take matters serious enough to include this in the 'hazards' section of parent resources.

Maybe the UK should take a leaf out of their book. I see The UK Missing Kids Website here (http://www.missingkids.co.uk/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_GB&PageId=123) aims to be 'the first port of call in the search for missing children' and is the only site of this kind 'approved by the Home Office, ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) and ACPO(S) (Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland)'.

While ACPO in their 'Manual of Guidance for the Management of Missing Persons' have made mention of the potential for psychics to create pressures in an investigation and the need to treat such information with extreme caution, there is no reference to any possible nuisance to the family.

Despite its official nature the site is woefully lacking in any real parental resources, support and advice let alone this very specific advice regarding the dangers of psychic parasites and media exploitation.

A quick look around other sites dealing with child abduction (Reunite), missing persons sites such as look4them , National Missing persons Helpline etc make some reference to the extent of parental support offered. However it's not clear whether it includes any advice on approaches from psychics.

Could it be that that psychics aren't seen as such a problem in this country or is it an area that's being overlooked?

John Jackson

28th March 2006, 10:00 PM

I haven't posted much today - working all day and I'm knackered. :'(

Anyway,

I emailed the Norfolk Constabulary today to ask them whether they have found the "information" given to them by former DCI Jackie Malton (given by 'psychic' Diane Lazarus) gained on Britain's Psychic Challenge has been of any help to them in finding Joanna Young's killer.

I'll keep you informed if and when I get a reply.

Eddiesilence

29th March 2006, 01:16 PM

And another, this time, a simple message from those heathen infidels in the wastes of pagan Scotland:

NORTHERN CONSTABULARY

29 Mar 2006

Northern Constabulary does not use psychics.

Duncan Pockett, Freedom of Information Officer

Muse

29th March 2006, 04:04 PM

Here's another self styled psychic detective trying to trace another missing person - that of Blake Hartley. Blake disappeared in August 2004 after a night out with friends in Chamonix.

Psychic Dennis McKenzie (psychic who gave 'information' to police regarding Soham murders) has told Blake's mother that he believes Blake was murdered. The full story is here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4853412.stm)

>:(

John Jackson

29th March 2006, 06:03 PM

It's bad enough that these parasites think nothing of telling people that their missing person is dead without a shred of evidence (even though statistically it is the most likely outcome), but 'murdered'?

When you realise that they make this stuff up, the potential for harm should be self-evident.

Here's a Randi Swift commentary that features 2 instances where these 'gifted' individuals got it wrong: http://www.randi.org/jr/032803.html

If Blake is found dead, and especially murdered, I'm sure Dennis McKenzie will be over that moon that he's confirmed his wonderful ability - oh yes, and 'helped' the family too. ::)

Muse

29th March 2006, 07:38 PM

Dear me, we seem to be on a bit of a roll today re. so called psychic detectives. This may be useful to Eddie.

Blind psychic Sharon Neill of the infamous Psychic Interactive channel etc. states amongst many other bizarre things that,

"I heard on the news that a girl had gone missing and I started getting pictures in my head. It was what became known as the Babe in the Wood case. I contacted a woman at Scotland Yard and told her what I had seen, along with the initials of the murderer. Amazingly, she listened to me. I thought she'd think I was a hoaxer or crazy.

"Two days later, an unmarked car drew up outside my college and detectives asked me to go with them and take a lie detector test. I told the detective that, since I had practised yoga, I could easily slow down my heartbeat.

"I'll never forget it - he said that with those words, I had confirmed my integrity to him."

It does not occur to Sharon that she could have been suspected of trying a 'double bluff' - and that the detective was merely playing along. There is nothing official to confirm her involvement in the case. Four-year-old Marie Payne's body was found two weeks after in Epping Forest and lorry driver Colin Evans later stood trial for her murder.

Since then, Sharon says she has been involved in up to 70 criminal cases all round the British Isles and Republic of Ireland. She also claims to have received an email from the family of missing Bangor girl Lisa Dorrian, asking for her help, but that she "hasn't had time to get around to it yet".

In fact, although it sounds slightly callous to my ears, Sharon says she is far too busy with her Sky and stage show work to become further involved in her 'spiritual detective agency'.

The full story is featured here (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/features/story.jsp?story=684437).

Have a read. Its worth it just to see what else is going on in this woman's head!! The words 'calculating' and 'grasping' come to mind. Bear in mind this woman claims to work closely with Bangor police according to this (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=642503).

btw it's the first time I've heard it stated that the dead take at least 8 weeks to 'come through' - obviously something which other mediums seem blissfully unaware of. ;D

John Jackson

29th March 2006, 08:59 PM

btw it's the first time I've heard it stated that the dead take at least 8 weeks to 'come through' - obviously something which other mediums seem blissfully unaware of. ;D

A friend of my sister went for a reading with a psychic soon after her husband died (34 :(). I had advised against it but she went ahead anyway. All the usual bunkum like they would soon be going on holiday etc. Anyway at the end of the reading she asked the medium about her husband who had just died. The medium asked how long since his passing. When it was explained that it had only been a few weeks the medium said that it was too soon, it usually takes 6-8 weeks before they come through.

Sounds like a ready made ad-hoc explanation for missing what should be blatantly obvious to me! ;)

Btw, Sharon Neill was featured on the BBC2 series "Psychics" a year or so back. She's a bloody awful woman. >:(

Eddiesilence

29th March 2006, 11:16 PM

Two days later, an unmarked car drew up outside my college and detectives asked me to go with them and take a lie detector test.

Sharon Neill just sounds like a lunatic; she must just be making this stuff up on the fly.

UK police forces do not use lie detectors. Much as we might like to believe otherwise, lie detectors are not even used extensively in the United States.

There have been pilot programmes here in Britain, and there was even a sketched governmental suggestion that they might institute polygraphs for sex offenders on the provision that they were reliable (which they are most definitely not). But to use a polygraph to test the veracity of the claims made by a psychic? How utterly absurd. Lie detectors are notoriously bad at detecting lies, and even worse at uncovering the delusions of nutters.

For the record, I have seen lie detectors used routinely in only two places in the UK:

1) On the Trisha Goddard show, where she subjects purportedly unfaithful husbands to a polygraph and stands by the result as if it is gospel truth. (Yeah, that's the same 'Trisha' who presented 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'.)

2) In your local branch of the Scientology cult.

Eddiesilence

29th March 2006, 11:24 PM

I just checked out Sharon Neill's silly website:

Welcome to the Contact section

Please email me at info@sharonneill.com

or phone me on (0044) 07802363398

One small question, and this goes for all the other 'psychics' online too:

Why would they need things like email addresses and telephone numbers?

Muse

30th March 2006, 07:35 PM

Yes it's a silly web site all right. However, a quick look around the web is all it needs to see that this so called connection between Neill and the police is parroted everywhere.

She's claiming to have an involvement in 70 high profile murder cases :-\

Here's another one that needs a little investigation. ;)

chillzero

3rd April 2006, 03:09 PM

I've resent my emails to try and prompt a response.

John Jackson

3rd April 2006, 03:16 PM

I've resent my emails to try and prompt a response.

It's not just me then. I must admit that I was impressed by people sending emails and getting responses and results. No one ever seems to respond to mine! :'(

I think they see the "skeptics" in the email address and it frightens them off. ;D

I'm still waiting for a response from Norfolk constabulary. >:(

Eddiesilence

3rd April 2006, 09:30 PM

I use the efficient method of issuing threats. Never fails to get a response...

Jocky

7th April 2006, 04:15 PM

Eddie, what do you threaten them with ?

The 1951 Fraudulent Mediums Act;
Private legal action;
Physical violence; or
Divine retribution in a future life

:D

chillzero

7th April 2006, 05:58 PM

Muse

7th April 2006, 07:04 PM

Congratulations chillzero on pursuing this little gem!! :)

How very extraordinary!

John Jackson

7th April 2006, 07:17 PM

It will be interesting to find out what the Major Investigations Unit have to say if it can be used.

I don't know why the police don't publish something and clear this issue up.

Zendal Darkman

9th April 2006, 01:11 AM

hope I am not sending this thread off on a tangent.
Today while tackling someone on another forum, I came across this awful statement from a police officer

PC Chris Horrocks said on the programme: “It’s very rare in these cases that there is no trail. It isn’t police policy to use mediums, but we’ll follow any line of enquiry. What she’s said has corroborated some things we’ve already investigated. We will keep in contact with her.”

from here (http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/11/11409_tv_psychics_claims_that_vinny_has_been_murde red_are_wrong_insists_devastated_wife.html")

I just hope that the police officer is using his own definition of "corroborated".

Sorry the link is not working. Do a search for "Horrocks" at the above site and the page will come up

chillzero

10th April 2006, 11:18 PM

Still no response from the garda, but Midlands police responded very much to Diane Lazarus's detriment.

The person who emailed me also copied me a letter from the Head of Major Investigations, and I have asked if it is ok for me to post that. I'm sure there shouldn't be a problem, so I'll stick that up when he confirms it. I am impressed with the effort this person has put into checking out a suitable response - much better than Selfridges managed.

As for the emails:
my request:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been intrigued by a recent UK television series on Channel Five, entitled ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge’ which has asserted that police forces routinely use such ‘psychics’ to assist in solving crimes. The winner, a lady called Diane Lazarus includes a letter on her website from the West Midlands' Detective Constable Marcella Daly (http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/invest_1.php).

In this letter D.C.Daly thanks Ms Lazarus for her assistance, and then states: "Personally I have learnt a great deal from you, and will take those new skills forward when dealing with other cases. I am most grateful for your time and I will always consider other methods in trying to find that piece of missing evidence."

I am very interested in finding out more details about the use of psychics in the police force, and what the success rates have been. If you could pass this email to anyone who could give me more information about this particular case I would be very appreciative. I am intrigued to find out how much information about the murderer, who has apprently been brought to justice, matched what Ms Lazarus detailed. Apparently Mark's body was found in Coventry on the 7th June 2002. Can you let me know if this was due to any information provided by Ms Lazarus?

Additionally, would it be possible for you to provide details of where, when and at what public cost other such psychics have been used - if at all - within your force’s jurisdiction? If psychics have been used, might I ask whether their input was useful?

I look forward to your response,

response
Your request for information, received 21 March 2006, concerning the
use of psychics in West Midlands Police has now been considered.

I am afraid that Marcella Daly no longer works for West Midlands
Police and so I cannot provide any further information regarding the
page on Diane Lazarus' website. Indeed I am unable to verify the
validity or provenance of that letter.

Unfortunately, the officer in charge of the case referred to on Diane
Lazarus' website has subsequently retired. I was, however, able to
speak to another officer who worked with the case quite closely. He
states without any doubt that no psychic was used to locate the body
(the method of discovery was much more mundane).

In respect of the use of psychics by West Midlands Police, please
find attached to this email an extract from a recent letter by the
Head of our Major Investigations Unit.

Again - still no response from the garda, but I have permission to publish the letter I was sent, because it is 'in the public domain'.

My questions from my original email:
Would it be possible for you to provide details of where, when and at what
public cost other such psychics have been used - if at all - within your force’s
jurisdiction? If psychics have been used, might I ask whether their input was
useful?

Response:
Extract from a recent letter from David Mirfield, Head of West Midlands Police Major
Investigations Unit (MIU):
As head of the West Midlands Police Major Investigation Unit (MIU) we are the
team commissioned to tackle the majority of murder investigations within our force
area.
We use a variety of specialists to assist the Department during investigations; some
are within the team itself while others are experts employed on a consultancy basis.
The use of psychics is not a common practice and we do not have what you may call
a regular contributor.
I have consulted with all of my senior investigating officers (SIO's), and none can
recall using such a person. I have personally received letters on an unsolicited basis
from individuals claiming to have information; often these are of little if any value and
will not be acted upon.
They can often be misleading and inconsistent with the facts. The investigation of
murder is, like all major crimes, merely a systematic approach using standard
procedures in a methodical way. They are often complex processes using multiple
and concurrent lines of enquiry but again like all crimes the police rely heavily on
information it receives, most often from eyewitnesses, other witnesses, and technical
and scientific support. We also work very closely with the families of the deceased,
this is a sensitive area and often information given by well meaning individuals can
cause hurt and often disappointment to the family.
I would never say never as far as the investigation of murder is concerned and of
course all information received is treated in the same way and processed through the
'system'. I am not personally aware of any occasion where the use of a psychic has
resulted in the detection of a murder.

Oleron

11th April 2006, 10:27 AM

OK, got a non-commital response from the Garda:

My (2nd) email to their press office:

I sent a request for information several weeks ago, concerning the claims
made by psychic Diane Lazarus on her website (link below).

http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/invest_3.php

I merely wish to know the Garda's response to her claims and their general
policy regarding the use of psychics in their investigations.

Their response:
Thank you for your email. We are not in a position to comment on individuals
correspondence with An
Garda Síochána.
In September 1999 a young female was murdered in Dunlaoighire Co Dublin.
This investigation remains open and no one has been made charged in relation
to this crime.
It is Garda policy to examine any information made available which may
assist us in any of our investigations.

Regards,

Noreen Harrison,Garda

Mojo

11th April 2006, 11:55 AM

Any news on whether "Eamon O'Reilly" is genuine?

Why would the Garda be sending out "to whom it may concern" testimonials about psychics anyway?

Oleron

11th April 2006, 12:42 PM

I wondered if Eamon O'Reilly was genuine also (the name was a bit too obvious 'Irish' to ring true). It seems he is a Detective Inspector in the Garda and was senior investigating officer on the murder of Raonaid Murray in September 1999. I am certain this is the murder case that Lazarus has alluded to in the letter.

See http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0901/murrayr.html for more info.

Sad case. The parents were devastated. Someone was arrested but later released. RTE released a LOT of information surrounding the case at the time so anyone with a bit of wit could learn a great deal about it in a short time. As such it would be difficult to separate real psychic info from smart guesswork.

There were several large appeals to the public for information, I'm guessing this is where Lazarus got in on the act.

chillzero

11th April 2006, 04:11 PM

Zendal Darkman

11th April 2006, 05:51 PM

I wonder if a request coming from someone from Ireland may get better results. There are Irish skeptic groups so it may be worthwhile asking them if they know of this case and if they could follow it up for us

There is another strategy ... but I may leave that suggestion for another time and place

chillzero

11th April 2006, 08:51 PM

Well, the shame tactic seems to have worked. I got a response within a few hours telling me that I will get a response once the appropriate person has gathered the info.

Plus a note about the validity of my queries never being in doubt. :D

So, we'll see what I get now.

Zendal Darkman

11th April 2006, 11:26 PM

great!
O0
Hopefully we can deal with 'Eamon O'Reilly' sooner rather than later,

Muse

20th April 2006, 04:35 PM

More psychic predators I see.

Spiritualist Ben Murphy and TV psychic Joe Power (chosen psychic for that dreadful Lennon seance to be screened in the US shortly) are both claiming to have divined information regarding Sally Anne's tragic death.

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/nightlife/viewarticle.aspx?id=322954

Power is another one who claims fame after the 'help' he says he's given to the police on this and other prominant cases, eg. Sarah Payne, Helen McCourt, Lynsey Quy. He describes himself as a 'psychic medium profiler' and has an interesting collection of newpaper cuttings on his web site located here (http://www.joe-power.com/articles.asp) which I suspect won't bear much informed scrutiny or investigation.

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/display.var.731425.0.spiritualist_has_visions_of_s ally_anne.php

Very recently spiritualist Ben Murphy has claimed that he has experienced visions of 18 year old model and murder victim Sally Anne Bowman in group sessions at the Spiritualist Church St Albans. The visions are said to have originated from looking into flames during group meditation sessions and lasted for up to an hour.

"I was also given the name Justin while in meditation. She gave me the actual experience of being covered in blood. I was lying at an angle as if my back was in arched position and the blood running up my face and into my hair. She also showed me a shoe print which had been left in blood."

Murphy believes he has been given vital clues as to the identity of the murderer and is frustrated that police will not take him seriously. A Met spokesman quite rightly said: "We get a lot of calls from spiritualists, but we deal in fact."

Its a pity they didn't lock him up as I saw a brief headline on the 'This is Local London' website today containing a plea to the police from Sally Anne's mum asking them to listen to Murphy's claims. Thank goodness someone must have thought better of it as the story was pulled around 4pm. :-\

Zendal Darkman

20th April 2006, 06:36 PM

Its a pity they didn't lock him up as I saw a brief headline on the 'This is Local London' website today containing a plea to the police from Sally Anne's mum asking them to listen to Murphy's claims. Thank goodness someone must have thought better of it as the story was pulled around 4pm. :-\

this the one?

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/display.var.738005.0.sally_annes_mum_begs_police_t o_listen_to_medium.php

Mr Power appears to have made repeated claims that police found a victims body (Lindsey Quy) exactly where he predicted. Does anyone know anything about this? It may be worthwhile chasing it up.

http://www.firstforfestivals.com/press_release/press_release_2005/press_release.2005-09-19.5760532337

Muse

20th April 2006, 07:22 PM

Yes Zendal it is, thanks. :)

The first version was timestamped for 2.16pm but disappeared leaving a blank page just before I could grab it. Sadly they've seen fit to reinstate it at 4.31 looking basically the same. :(

This poor mother is having her precious emotional and physical energy drained by clinging on to the vague utterances of psychic predators to the point where she feels that her only option is to plead on their behalf to the police. Just how a psychic's opinion - and that's all it is - can be deemed 'vital clues' is beyond me.

This is why I believe that the UK needs to develop expertise and resources in this area for families of missing loved ones similar to Kelly Jolkowski's excellent work in the States with Project Jason. In these desperate situations families need all sorts of information readily available and this is one area that the UK is badly neglecting.

Since I now have some unexpected time on my hands I don't mind having a look at Joe Power 'psychic medium profiler' if no-one objects :D

Zendal Darkman

20th April 2006, 08:05 PM

Since I now have some unexpected time on my hands I don't mind having a look at Joe Power 'psychic medium profiler' if no-one objects :D

Don't like the sound of 'unexpected time on my hands', hope things are okay for you. Thanks for looking into Mr Power.

John Jackson

20th April 2006, 08:22 PM

I don't object Phaedra.

Mr Power (real name?) really seems to be pushing his claim to help the police in these tragic cases.

I bet he can't provide a reference from a police force that endorses him.

We certainly do need to make a stand against people like him: psychic predators.

Muse

20th April 2006, 08:54 PM

[quote=phaedra ]

Don't like the sound of 'unexpected time on my hands', hope things are okay for you. Thanks for looking into Mr Power.

Thanks for your concern Zendal but it's nothing too drastic. :)

His 'abilities' centre around four main cases Lynsey Quy, Sarah Payne, Helen McCourt and to a lesser extent Sally Anne Bowman. Not surprisingly I've found nothing but his own claims so far.

chillzero

20th April 2006, 10:06 PM

From waaaaaaaay back ... I finally got a reply from the garda...
Very, very disappointing.

my email
Dear Sir or Madam,

I have been intrigued by a recent UK television series on Channel Five, entitled ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge’ which has asserted that police forces routinely use such ‘psychics’ to assist in solving crimes. The winner, a lady called Diane Lazarus includes a letter on her website from the Garda’s Detective Inspector Eamon O’Reilly (http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/invest_3.php).

In this letter D.I. O’Reilly states that the Garda: “employed the services of Diane Lloyd (Hughes) – Lazarus to assist us in the investigation of the murder of a young girl in Dun Laoghaire, which occurred in September 1999. We employed the assistance of Diane in March 2002. She was able to outline the details of the murderer, description etc. and her assistance greatly enhanced our investigation”.

I am very interested in finding out more details about the use of psychics in the police force, and what the success rates have been. If you could pass this email to anyone who could give me more information about this particular case I would be very appreciative. I am intrigued to find out if the murderer has since been brought to justice, and how much information matched what Ms Lazarus detailed. D.I. O’Reilly states a desire to work with Ms Lazarus again, and I wondered if he has done so, and if so, was her information specifically helpful?

Additionally, would it be possible for you to provide details of where, when and at what public cost other such psychics have been used - if at all - within your force’s jurisdiction? If psychics have been used, might I ask whether their input was useful?

I look forward to your response,

response from garda
Hi

Sorry for the delay in replying. An Garda Síochána does not have a police in place in relation to the use of Psychics in criminal investigations. When Psychics are employed, the decision is one for the investigating officer having regard to all the circumstances of the individual case.

Regards,

I have replied asking to be put in touch with DI O'reilly, or any other officers who have emploed psychics.

John Jackson

21st April 2006, 11:25 AM

Not much information either way in that response. ::)

We shouldn't forget though, that police officers are human too. Some of them individually might use psychics, or at least take them seriously, as they are just as prone to irrationalism as anyone else.

It's the systematic use of psychics that would be the real concern. Fortunately, police forces stick with reality.

Muse

21st April 2006, 11:54 AM

From what I've read it seems that the Garda may well have a different take on the information provided by psychics.

I came across an article recently on the disappearence of 11 year old Robert Holohan in Co. Cork last year in the Irish Examiner. In it a senior garda spokesman confirmed that they "had received calls from a number of psychics who had given them information, which they are checking on."
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/01/08/story98990731.asp

Perhaps this is a legacy of the situation with Northern Ireland, where psychics may have been used by rival factions as a means to pass on information on crimes committed?

Mojo

21st April 2006, 12:09 PM

People active on this thread who are in the South East might be interested in next week's Skeptics in the Pub (http://www.skeptic.org.uk/pub/) talk: Applying Science to the Paranormal: The Case of Psychic Detectives.

chillzero

21st April 2006, 12:12 PM

Perhaps this is a legacy of the situation with Northern Ireland, where psychics may have been used by rival factions as a means to pass on information on crimes committed?

what's that all about?

Muse

21st April 2006, 05:25 PM

Sorry chillzero - yes that does sound a bit cryptic.

It goes back to something I was reading some time ago which put forward an interesting idea on the role of psychics and the police on both sides of the border with regard to the high numbers of missing persons cases. It mentioned the possibility that psychics may have been used on occasion by terrorist groups as a clandestine means of passing information on the activities of a rival group to either police force without arousing undue attention. I have no idea if that is accurate although on practical grounds, given the circumstances, it would seem reasonable.

Certainly the Garda seem a little more prepared to give psychics a hearing whatever the cause – perhaps they’re all graduates of the Jackie Malton school of credulous policing? :D

Mojo - thanks for the heads up. It sounds great. Unfortunately, I'm another one from up north and am unable to make it. :(

I'll look forward to any reports though. :)

chillzero

15th May 2006, 12:41 PM

I'll let these emails speak for themselves:

From me, to South Wales Police:
Hello,

I hope you can help me gather some information. I am pulling together some information on two fronts :

I am looking into the use of psychics by police forces n the UK. I would like to know how often psychics are used by your police force. Can you give me any examples of verifiable information provided by them that helped solve a case? How much money is invested in using psychics?

The other information I would like to ask about concerns one psychic in particular. Diane Lazarus claims on her website that you reopened the case of Muriel Drinkwater based on information provided by her. She also claims that you were checking the DNA of a suspect based on her input. Can you verify any of these claims? Was anyone convicted for this murder, and if so wasa it based on what Diane had to tell you? Did she give you any specific information that was verified as the case was completed? I understand that she was working with detective sergeant Peter Hall. Would he be available to comment on this case at all?

I look forward to receiving your response,

Their response (finally)
Dear ****,
I write in connection with your request for
information dated 14th April
2006, concerning use of psychics. Your request for information has
now been considered and the response is
as follows :

I have spoken to the Senior Investigating Officer dealing with the Muriel
Drinkwater murder (1946). He has no recollection of South Wales Police
ever using a psychic on any murder enquiry over the last 30 years,
including that of Muriel Drinkwater. South Wales Police have had
no dealings with the named Diane Lazarus and
can confirm that the statements you allege she has made on her website are
untrue. Peter Hall was a Sergeant with South Wales Police and has
since retired.

chillzero

15th May 2006, 12:43 PM

I have replied to ask if they will take steps to have the incorrect information removed.

Muse

15th May 2006, 12:49 PM

Congratulations Chillzero - That's what I call a result. O0

John Jackson

15th May 2006, 04:30 PM

I have replied to ask if they will take steps to have the incorrect information removed.

Excellent. O0

I might use this for the commentary - hope yopu don't mind. It will get picked up by the search engines on there. ;)

Jocky

15th May 2006, 04:49 PM

Brilliant result, chilly O0 O0

If you tread carefully now, you have the power make Diane Lazarus look very silly indeed. Good luck!

Oleron

17th May 2006, 07:58 AM

Nice one Chilly! O0

Lazarus is arguably the highest profile psychic involved in missing person cases (apart from the Soham guy McKenzie?, perhaps). If we can show that her claims are not true then I think we have really achieved something and drawn a line in the sand.

chillzero

17th May 2006, 10:13 AM

Thanks guys. I feel terrible though, because I didn't save the webpage as it was, and it has since been altered slightly. I have had some trouble finding a cached version of what was there before.

I am still in communication with the police contact and will give any updates.

Dr B

17th May 2006, 11:40 AM

Excellent stuff - well done. ^-^

Muse

17th May 2006, 12:04 PM

Some of you may remember that I mentioned that I would try to look into Joe Power, earlier in this thread. He claims to having provided vital information to police which helped them find the dismembered remains of Lynsey Quy back in 2000. Power includes various sympathetic reports on this web site although no That this, if true, would represent the first ever instance of a psychic being responsible for providing information of such calibre and value as to lead police directly to the location of vital evidence.

- - That this, if true, would represent the first ever instance of a psychic being responsible for providing information of such calibre and value as to lead police directly to the location of vital evidence.

- That Power has based his career upon this claim ever since.

I contacted Merseyside Police to check the validity of Power's claim saying

Dear Sir,

I have been intrigued by the UK television series on Channel Five, entitled ‘Britain’s Psychic Challenge’ which asserted that police forces routinely use such ‘psychics’ to assist in solving crimes.

Recently, I came across the web site of psychic medium profiler Joe Power that includes several newspaper articles covering his assistance provided in various murder investigations.

From these articles it would appear, that Mr. Power has assisted Merseyside Police during their investigations into the murder of Lynsey Quy who apparently disappeared in 1998. The articles in question can be found at http://www.joe-power.com/articles.asp

In particular, I would be glad to know whether Mr. Power provided any information, which led directly to the discovery of Mrs. Quy’s body. Can you please tell me whether her discovery was due to information provided by Mr. Power?

Only to receive this emphatic response from Det. Supt. Geoff Sloan, senior investigating officer in the Lynsey Quy enquiry.

“I wish to state, categorically, that as the Senior Investigating Officer on the Lyndsey Quy murder, I made a policy decision not to use psychics on the investigation. Joe Power has allegedly made claims that he assisted the enquiry but this is not the case.”

To clarify matters further I wrote to Claudine Hope, Power's manager requesting the removal of material from his web site suggesting his involvement in the Lynsey Quy case which she replied

“Thank you for your email and concern about the Lynsey Quy case. Joe Power did how ever make a statement in the Southport Police station where he spoke with a women officer who gave Joe a receipt for the statement made.”

If true this confirms what we've already suspected for a long time - that an ambitious psychic has only to make some sort of statement to the police however vague (ensuring to collect a receipt for later PR use) to ensure that they can later claim, albeit in a technical sense, that they have assisted in the case.

???

I'll be posting an article on this over at The Skeptice Express (http://www.theskepticexpress.com/) very shortly.

Unfortunately still no news from Sussex police regarding his claims concerning the Sarah Payne case. Power's claims over recent years regarding the Helen McCourt case have come to nought either. Helen is still missing after 18 years.

vbloke

17th May 2006, 12:24 PM

Splendid work.

Psychic parasites like this deserve to be exposed and called on their blatant truth bending abilities to further their careers.

John Jackson

17th May 2006, 12:31 PM

Excellent work Phaedra.

It confirms the conclusion that it's the psychics who go to the police with their 'information' in the same way that anyone who thinks they may be able to assist in a case can. Only the psychics then make the claim that they have 'helped the police' on their cases.

I'll put it in my commentary too (if you don't mind) with links to the SE article. O0

Muse

17th May 2006, 12:53 PM

Thanks guys.

The article is on its way. John please feel free to use it in your commentary.

The more people that know about these tactics the better. :)

chillzero

17th May 2006, 01:11 PM

If true this confirms what we've already suspected for a long time - that an ambitious psychic has only to make some sort of statement to the police however vague (ensuring to collect a receipt for later PR use) to ensure that they can later claim, albeit in a technical sense, that they have assisted in the case.

What can we do about this? Any ideas?
It's kind of like me getting a ticket to Wimbledon final day, and claiming my presence was essential in the victory of the winner.
How depressing.

Have you responded back to try and reason with her that the information is still misleading and objectionable?

vbloke

17th May 2006, 02:19 PM

What can we do about this? Any ideas?

I think the best way would be to put up the responses from the police.

If we can get the police force in question to explicitly state they don't use psychics and for specific cases that are mentioned by the psychics that they didn't "aid" the investigation, then we have a powerful tool to use against them when they make these claims.

Muse

17th May 2006, 02:31 PM

Chillzero - yes I have and eagerly await her reply. :)

vbloke - Its a pity that an umbrella organisation like The Association of Chief Police officers in both England and Scotland don't issue a blanket policy statement on the matter.

Instead it's up to anyone whose interested enough to approach each force for each case individually - time consuming for them and us - meanwhile the psychics continue to claim and distort the truth however they like. At the moment the best policy is naming and shaming until something changes.

btw the article is now up at
http://www.theskepticexpress.com/Joe_Power_the_Lynsey_Quy_case.php

:)

vbloke

17th May 2006, 03:08 PM

all it would take is one high-profile missing person's family to sue one of these psychics for emotional trauma and manipulation for the whole thing to start coming under closer scrutiny.

John Jackson

24th July 2006, 08:14 AM

Here's the latest on Diane Lazarus. (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=17435236&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=psychic-sleuth-lazarus-sets-up-agency-to-track-down-love-cheats--missing-relatives-and-lost-pets--name_page.html)

"She once helped West Midlands police find the killers of college lecturer Mark Green, after claiming he contacted her from beyond the grave and led her to the identity of his killers.

She sad, "A lady came to me for a reading after her nephew had gone missing and suddenly this guy called Mark came through.

"He told me he'd been murdered," said Diane, who also helped police in the case of murdered TV presenter Jill Dando."

From: ICWales - "the national website of Wales".

Yes, that pile of tripe gives a great impression of the Welsh, doesn't it? ::)

I notice that the 'psychic sleuth' has employed a couple of former policemen. Call me a cynic but... I wonder who does the real leg work, who traces the missing people and who takes the credit? :ponder:

It's blatantly obvious what's going on but I expect people will still fall for it all.

chillzero

24th July 2006, 10:03 AM

Ack!
That's one of the ones I covered, and she never led anyone to the identity of his killers. She took a few guesses at where he might have been murdered, and fed the family some claptrap about how appearing on tv would help solve the case. The murderer's brother went to the police and confessed, and I have a statement from the police denying that she assisted at all.

I notice that she has altered her version of it on her website, to add a few more relevant juicy details. (I'll really have to get the hang of this web page archiving thing!)
http://www.dianelloyd-hughes.co.uk/intro_6.php

Why has this been resurrected just now?

Oh my goodness!! I just read your link. I bet I can stab a guess at who one of those police officers is, actually. Oh, I am really annoyed now:

"After winning <"Britain's Psychic Challenge">, she has been inundated with offers from TV, radio and from people hoping to harness her psychic ability to find missing relatives, partners having a fling, or worried parents asking if she can help trace their missing children."

Please - anyone readign this, and considering a psychic as an option for locating a missing person... PLEASE read this blog of a mother with a missing son first:
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/
This shows the real damage done by these charalatans who do nothing but distract law enforcement from proper investigation, and exploit families already in distress.

Nobody has ever solved a case using a psychic - this site and several others have the information from many many police forces to prove this. The only way anyone can give accurate information about a case, that has not already been put in the public domain, is if they are a witness - or a perpetrator.

You are not letting down your loved one if you do not pursue this route - no matter what the psychics and your well-meaning friends/family may tell you. Save your emotional energy, your physical energy, and potentially a lot of your money. Hang in there as best you can - trust and assist your police liaison staff.

Edit to addd: http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/index.php/board,25.0.html
I knew John had collected all these police confirmation letters somewhere.