Split from psychicsarah thread.

[Zaira]

PsychicSarahFan,

I'm with you. Not that I believe everything Sarah said but people like her don't stand a chance around here.

Sorry, folks. I love you guys and you have been very sweet towards me but you will never find the answers you seek. You poo-poo anyone who sees the world differently from you.

I'm not psychic but I would like to warn some of you of being so stuck in so called ‘reality’ that you miss the point and are left with nothing in your old age but your Skeptic views which may translate as being bitter and cynical old men and women.

We all need a little fantasy in our lives. And I think Skeptics need it more than most.

[Zaira]

John,

I love you (as a forum buddy) but you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

Loosen up.

I can’t help wondering what your life is like from day to day. You can’t be that serious all the time. Surely?

When - I’m serious - was the last time you walked barefoot in the park eating an ice cream?

Fuck the doggy-doo. Try it!!

Life, in whatever form it comes, is wonderful!

Enjoy!!

The net, this forum, psychics, and all the rest will be here long after you have gone. FACT NOT FICTON!

[John Jackson]

OK Zaira.

Can you give us, or me, any reason to take psychicsarah seriously?

What has she done or said that is worthy of respect?

She's had every opportunity to work with us but has refused every attempt to do so.

Sorry, but I'm not going to take a light-hearted look at people who can and do do serious harm to victims of crime and misfortune for the sake of frivolity or fantasy.

Yes there's fun things to be had in life; however, losing a child isn't one of them and neither is being targeted by psychic predators.

We can have fun and we can be serious and I would say that doing both is fine - we just need to pick the appropriate situation for either. And this topic is not an appropriate one for having laughs.

[bindeweede]

Zaira,

Quote

I'm not psychic but I would like to warn some of you of being so stuck in so called ‘reality’ that you miss the point and are left with nothing in your old age but your Skeptic views which may translate as being bitter and cynical old men and women.

Not sure whether I am one of the "some" you refer to, and no personal attack intended here, but what point am I missing? And if I'm honest, I'd rather be stuck in "so called 'reality'", than a fantasy world of angels, fairies, psychics, ghosts, crystals, reiki, psychic surgery, and all the other bollocks. [I'm not suggesting you are, but some of the sites I've come across suggest some people are.] I wouldn't usually use a word like that in a public post, but you don't seem to have a problem, so I shouldn't either, really.

Of course, I can't see into the future, but I do not, at present, at least, see why my skeptical views "may" translate into me becoming bitter and cynical.
I suppose it's possible, but who can say?

[Zaira]

Ok, John.

I'm not saying take her seriously. She has been a very naughty girl, getting involved in serious media stuff. Disagree with her by all means, and then move on.

She hasn't said much worthy of our respect, but I don't recall her asking for our respect. She is very misguided and I hope she sees where she went wrong sooner rather than later.

She's had every opportunity to work with you all and has refused every attempt to do so. So why keep pushing? See it for what it is and move on.

I don't take a light-hearted view of people who do serious harm to victims of crime and misfortune either. But isn't it up to the people involved to tell her where to get off?

I know about losing a child. One of the very worst things anyone should have to live through in my opinion. But what has that got to do with having fun? The sun comes up and the sun goes down. And we get on with living or we get on with dying. I don't know about you but whether I believe in an afterlife or not, I don't want my loved ones looking down and seeing me miserable. Do you?

You're right! This topic is not an appropriate one for having laughs. Just what I have been saying all along.

I also suggested way back that perhaps it should be knocked on the head, and you appeared to agree with me. You mentioned breaking the thread up. Separating bits of it. But that never happened. Why?

[Allo Allo]

Reading through all of your attacks on Sarah, you are not very different........the olden days brits are not so different from the so callled modern brits......:-\ I'm just nit picking - the Brits burnt a lot of people (but less witches than were burned in Europe though) - but I don't think they burnt Joan of Arc......

Witch hunting is possibly a mental illness - the desire to persecute those of unlike mind.....mmm... I'll research it

[Zaira]

bindeweede,

No personal attack intended on anyone here.

It just all seems so....... predictable.

I'm not saying you should be stuck in either. You can live in both, it's all to do with balance.

I wasn't referring so much to fantasy, angels, fairies, psychics, ghosts, crystals, reiki, psychic surgery, and all the other "bollocks". What I am saying is that everyone is perhaps being too serious and one track minded on this thread at least.

You're not suggesting I am. Thank you for that. I don't see myself like that now but I have been down that road in the past. I know what these people are going through. And if they are lucky they will realise the truth before it's too late.

I have come across those sites too. I am involved with psychic forums for my own research and I'm doing quite well. Which only goes to confirm a lot of my beliefs that some of them are so easily lead and that they will believe anything.

I apologise for my use of that word. Sometimes I just need emphases.

I hope you're right and that your skeptical views don't leave you over cynical and bitter. But in my experience, people who only see the 'reality' of this world become overwhelmed by it and may even decide to turn their back on it all together.

[John Jackson]

The Brits used to hang witches not burn them. I believe (I did read up on it a long time ago) that the burnings were mostly in continental Europe and the USA.

The witch-hunts were a prime example of irrational thinking based on the belief in paranormal/supernatural powers and entities. Corruption too later on of course.

This is exactly the sort of thinking, mirrored in modern society by the belief in psychics/mediums/mystics/etc., that skeptics aim to highlight and expose for the irrational, and potentially harmful, thing that it is.

Which shows that it wasn't exactly the best analogy to use against us! ;D

[Zaira]

Allo Allo,

Joan of Arc - She then set out to relieve Compiègne, but was captured and sold to the English by John of Luxembourg. Put on trial (1431) for heresy and sorcery, she was found guilty by an English-constituted court, and burned. She was canonized in 1920.

[Zaira]

John,

This is a great example of what I was getting at.

The witch-hunts were a prime example of irrational thinking on the side of the Witch Hunters. They didn't understand people healing themselves and each other because they couldn't afford to see doctors. And what they didn't understand they were afraid of, and what they were afraid of they tried to destroy.

Those people were not witches they were today’s 'psychics'!

Are Skeptics modern day Witch Hunters?


"Which shows that it wasn't exactly the best analogy to use against us!"

Are you sure about that?

[John Jackson]

I hope you're right and that your skeptical views don't leave you over cynical and bitter. But in my experience, people who only see the 'reality' of this world become overwhelmed by it and may even decide to turn their back on it all together.

There is no other reality - only fabricated reality.

There's more than enough in the real world that is truly fascinating than people may imagine. Do an astronomy course and you'll be amazed at what's out there. Do a biology course, look through microscopes at cells dividing, life in action!, and be amazed at how it all works. Look at Earth Science, discover what earthquakes tell us about the Earth's interior, how the continents drift across the surface of the globe, see how landmasses collide, like India driving into Asia, raising the Himalayas, and creating the monsoons which dried out Africa - this may have led to the conditions forcing apes to leave the dwindling forest and make a living on the Savannahs - on two legs.....

Then after discovering the true wonder of the real world, try presenting the argument for believing in psychics etc. All this is just intellectual bankruptcy.

The real world is far, far more fascinating and interesting than the imaginary world of the paranormal.

And as we seem to be in 'mocking mode' tonight, let me say that I think that those who escape reality to live in the imaginary world of magical powers and special people are the really sad ones. It's THEY who ought to open their eyes and minds to the fascination of reality - not waste their time believing in a fantasy.

[John Jackson]

The witch-hunts were a prime example of irrational thinking on the side of the Witch Hunters.

I know. They're who I was talking about. ::)

[Zaira]

John,

I get it. This is a wonderful world.

I am not trying to present an argument for believing in psychics etc.

"The real world is far, far more fascinating and interesting than the imaginary world of the paranormal."

How would you ever know that unless you had taken a journey into the world of the paranormal?

You deal in facts. Right? How can you compare both when you have only ever experienced one?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I hope you're right and that your skeptical views don't leave you over cynical and bitter. But in my experience, people who only see the 'reality' of this world become overwhelmed by it and may even decide to turn their back on it all together.


Zaira,

I can't speak for everyone here, but if there was such a thing as a skeptic rite of passage, it would almost be classifed as a spiritual experience.

Casting aside the faith based nonsense and being able to live in a world where you just know you don't know it all but you don't need some supernatural god or teapot to fill in the blanks is just so uplifting.

When it all clicks into place, it is amazing. You do see things with a lot of clarity - and I think you are misinterpreting that for cynicism and pedantry. The people on here can spot BS at a thousand miles :smiley:.


It isn't for everyone - I know that - but I don't need fairy tales or make-believe to get me through life.

If you aren't familiar with the concept, I'd recommend reading up on humanism. I'm not an active humanist, but the stance is certainly something I support.

Personally, I hate the psychics trying to make a name for themselves out of missing children. However it goes much wider for me - I see vulnerable people being lied to and ripped off constantly by them. Sure, people bring it on themselves, but I absolutely detest the whole concept that lying to people is acceptable. We all hate it if we feel we have been conned or ripped off, and that is how I feel when I see psychics doing it to other people.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

.....

How would you ever know that unless you had taken a journey into the world of the paranormal?
You deal in facts. Right? How can you compare both when you have only ever experienced one?


We're still waiting for evidence that there is something to experience other than fraud and delusion.

[John Jackson]

How would you ever know that unless you had taken a journey into the world of the paranormal?

You deal in facts. Right? How can you compare both when you have only ever experienced one?

This thread, and the other psychics we've looked at, are an insight into the 'reality' of the 'paranormal world'. ;)

You may not be able to, but I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. And I know which is the more intellectually stimulating and fulfilling. HINT: it's not the make-believe one.

[The Great Bymble]

John,

I get it. This is a wonderful world.

I am not trying to present an argument for believing in psychics etc.

"The real world is far, far more fascinating and interesting than the imaginary world of the paranormal."

How would you ever know that unless you had taken a journey into the world of the paranormal?

You deal in facts. Right? How can you compare both when you have only ever experienced one?
Zaira
Reminds me of the spiritualist medium who was constantly warning from the stage that Black and White Witchcraft were no different and both 'evil'-how could she make a valid comparison unless she'd tried both?

[Allo Allo]

I agree with John's summing up of the mental illness of the medieval witch hunters - one of the shameful acts of the Catholic Church...

But I found this in my research, which is more modern...

Pathological skeptic

The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
Double standards in the application of criticism
The making of judgments without full inquiry
Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
Use of ridicule or ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attacks in lieu of arguments
Pejorative labeling of proponents as 'promoters', 'pseudoscientists' or practitioners of 'pathological science.'
Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it
........"Skeptic" labels someone whose mental processes are continually and rigidly out of balance, in the direction of disbelief."

(wiki of course)

and an interesting bit here which had only just occurred to me too...

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof."

From all my reading over the last year - which is tons! - the jury is still out about a lot of peri-natural stuff - there is really interesting work being done in Europe, China and USA - oops UK too - especially in the North! If you are a skeptic and observe without layering it all with a pre-decided personal position, it could be exciting stuff. The world truly is an amazing place! Psychic Sarah is sooo unimportant in the bigger picture......

Oops about Joan of Arc!

[bindeweede]

John
I hope I'm not being sycophantic, or even psychophantic, but this impressed me greatly....

There's more than enough in the real world that is truly fascinating than people may imagine. Do an astronomy course and you'll be amazed at what's out there. Do a biology course, look through microscopes at cells dividing, life in action!, and be amazed at how it all works. Look at Earth Science, discover what earthquakes tell us about the Earth's interior, how the continents drift across the surface of the globe, see how landmasses collide, like India driving into Asia, raising the Himalayas, and creating the monsoons which dried out Africa - this may have led to the conditions forcing apes to leave the dwindling forest and make a living on the Savannahs - on two legs.....

Brill.

Sorry, but this sems to have ended up in the wrong thread.

[John Jackson]

No, BW - I've split these few postings from the main thread as they're just based on Ad Hominem points that are really unrelated to the main thread.

If we want to criticise skepticism then all good and well - I'm sure we can counter it. ;)


Oh, and thanks BTW. O0

[bindeweede]

Zaira

You suggested that there was a point I was missing. We don't need to fall out about this, and I really hope we won't, but you still haven't said what the point was that I am missing.

I am trying, in more ways than one:smiley:.

[Zaira]

I want to apologise, folks.

Been a busy and worrying weekend. One of my grandson’s is in hospital after pulling a hot kettle over himself.

No excuse I know but I’m not feeling myself right now.

I am truly sorry for letting myself get carried away and hijacking that thread.

I’m going to take a break.

And if it’s okay with all of you I will come back in a few days and try to put things right.

[John Jackson]

I'm not sure what your point in quoting that is AA. If there's any criticism then it will have to be more specific.

I'm not sure what someone's idea of a 'pathological skeptic' (?) is meant to convey unless it's a Straw Man Argument put forward by someone like Marcello Truzzi (a one time skeptic turned believer) who call themselves 'Real Skeptics' because they believe in the paranormal.

Personally, I wonder why these people who believe things despite the lack of evidence feel the need to class themselves as skeptics.

Perhaps they really know that skepticism is the correct way to investigate claims but as it doesn't lead to the results they want, they move the goalposts to suit their beliefs.

You see, skeptics can deny things exist (!) It's a perfectly sound position to take as long as the statement is scientifically phrased (i.e. falsifiable).

'Psychic powers are not real' is such a sound statement. It's rock solid - based on (lack of) evidence - and can be falsified should one psychic ever prove their ability.

We're just waiting, I think the systematic search has been 125 years long now, for that one psychic.

[bindeweede]

I want to apologise, folks. Been a busy and worrying weekend. One of my grandson’s is in hospital after pulling a hot kettle over himself. No excuse I know but I’m not feeling myself right now. I am truly sorry for letting myself get carried away and hijacking that thread. I’m going to take a break. And if it’s okay with all of you I will come back in a few days and try to put things right.

Zaira,

I'm a Humanist. I care. Look after yourself. Rest. Recover. You DO have friends here. Please come back when you are ready.
Tom.

And I absolutely know this will mean something to you.

[brianp]

Been a busy and worrying weekend. One of my grandson’s is in hospital after pulling a hot kettle over himself.

Sorry to hear this - I trust he'll make a full and speedy recovery.

[chillzero]

I'm not saying take her seriously. She has been a very naughty girl, getting involved in serious media stuff. Disagree with her by all means, and then move on.

Why? Why move one when something wrong is being done? Why should we turn a blind eye to deceit?

She hasn't said much worthy of our respect, but I don't recall her asking for our respect. She is very misguided and I hope she sees where she went wrong sooner rather than later.

She may not have said the exact words "I would like your respect", however, she has published her beliefs and lies as fact, and expecst people to believe her. Asking for belief is asking for respect.


I don't take a light-hearted view of people who do serious harm to victims of crime and misfortune either. But isn't it up to the people involved to tell her where to get off?

I am involved. I volunteer for a missing persons project ina minor capacity. I can tell you right now that the people directly involved in these situations do not have the time to get bogged down in ridiculous games with these predators. They need to get on with the serious business of getting information out, of holding themselves and their families together, of liaising with police authorities and media. They do not need to have these people come and involve themselves in their lives for self promotion/gratification.


I know about losing a child. One of the very worst things anyone should have to live through in my opinion. But what has that got to do with having fun? The sun comes up and the sun goes down. And we get on with living or we get on with dying. I don't know about you but whether I believe in an afterlife or not, I don't want my loved ones looking down and seeing me miserable. Do you?

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. There is a difference, however when a loved one goes missing. Families don't 'get on with living' for a LONG time - if ever again. And this is the situation under discussion as regards these psychic predators. I do not mean to diminish your experience in any way at all - please believe that. However, if you believe your loved ones watch over you, how would you feel about a 'psychic' pretending to speak for them? Do you think your loved ones would endorse you getting ripped off and preyed upon?

[chillzero]

Can I also take another opportunity to remind people that not every skeptic sees only just 'one side of the coin'. Some of us come from a background of believing in all kinds of things, but have learned through examination of evidence, and through personal observation and experience, that these things are wrong.

[brettdbass]

One of my grandson’s is in hospital after pulling a hot kettle over himself.
I'd like to add my voice in wishing him all the best for a speedy recovery.

Can I also take another opportunity to remind people that not every skeptic sees only just 'one side of the coin'. Some of us come from a background of believing in all kinds of things, but have learned through examination of evidence, and through personal observation and experience, that these things are wrong.
I'd also like to agree with this point in it's entirety, being (as you know, Zaira) pretty much an exact description of my life.

Chillzero - what are you, psychic or something? ;D

[Allo Allo]

I'm not sure what someone's idea of a 'pathological skeptic' (?) is meant to convey unless it's a Straw Man Argument put forward by someone like Marcello Truzzi (a one time skeptic turned believer) who call themselves 'Real Skeptics' because they believe in the paranormal.

I found it very comforting when I began to understand that there are skeptics and skeptics and that even skeptics criticise each other! Carl Sagan really understood that skepticism used badly is not a tool of progress. It simply alienates and divides.

Personally, I wonder why these people who believe things despite the lack of evidence feel the need to class themselves as skeptics.
I think because, just like you, they do NOT believe in the Psychic Sarahs of this world or any of the other "bollocks".

Perhaps they really know that skepticism is the correct way to investigate claims but as it doesn't lead to the results they want, they move the goalposts to suit their beliefs.
Mmm - I don't know about this - don't you think methods of testing nowadays are helping the goalposts stay in the same place?

You see, skeptics can deny things exist (!) It's a perfectly sound position to take as long as the statement is scientifically phrased (i.e. falsifiable).
But they can deny things exist even in the face of experiment results that show a result - for example Wiseman versus Sheldrake recently.

'Psychic powers are not real' is such a sound statement. It's rock solid - based on (lack of) evidence - and can be falsified should one psychic ever prove their ability. We're just waiting, I think the systematic search has been 125 years long now, for that one psychic.

This is the one fact that makes me really question WHY the question of whether there is something or not NEVER seems to go away! There is an arm of scientists that DO feel that there is something to test - even though you might think of them as psudoscientists. Why do they go on and on plodding through thousands of experiments covering all sorts of peri-natural phenomena - and reporting results which mainstream scientists simply shred as being non-scientific?

These are simply aspects of how the human mind works. WHY are skeptics so bound up in trying to debunk it as a super - natural thing? Nothing is super-natural. Its just natural! Therefor "and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded." is really bollocks! The Principle of Laplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Quotes) which says, "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." seems fairer.

There are some things that happen which seem, as yet, to have no known mechanism. I think to deny that is not skepticism - it's stupidity.

[Allo Allo]

Zaira,I can't speak for everyone here, but if there was such a thing as a skeptic rite of passage, it would almost be classifed as a spiritual experience. (what's wrong with these damn quote tags! >:-))

Well, here is a quote from me at the time I was having my skeptical "epiphany" - and being less touchy about spiritual experiences than a lot of people here - that's exactly how it seemed to me!

"Emotionally I feel like I do when I find myself on a bleak and lonely fell where the silence thunders and I feel supercharged with inspiration..."

Bleak, Inspirational Science (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=520)

[John Jackson]

AA, it's all about the philosophy of science and skepticism.

The likes of Sheldrake are not skeptics they're Pyrrhonists. They basically take the stance that nothing can be proved absolutely and therefore nothing can be disproved absolutely.

This allows them to take the stance that despite 125 years' of systematic testing of psychic abilities, for example, and there's no positive evidence for them, that they simply remain unproven (not disproved).

You see, it means if you believe in psychic powers then this stance allows people to keep on believing and keep on looking despite the contrary evidence....

This stance is based on the 'problem of induction' which was solved by Karl Popper with his idea of scientific statements being falsifiable.

What we can now say, with perfectly sound reasoning, is that if something has been tested for 125 years and no proof of it has come to light then we can say it doesn't exist (the scientific statement) with the proviso that we will change our stance should new evidence come to light (the falsifiability criterion). That is the stance taken by modern skepticism.

Modern skepticism makes a lot more sense to me. ;)

With Pyrrhonism we could say that flying carpets do not have any supporting evidence so they remain unproven, but we can't dismiss the idea as they're not disproven (thus allowing the belief in flying carpets).

With skepticism we would say they do not exist unless anyone can show that they do.

So these criticisms of skeptics are not coming from other skeptics, they're coming from pyrrhonists: a philosophy they hold as it is conducive to their paranormal world view (!)

[Allo Allo]

The likes of Sheldrake are not skeptics they're Pyrrhonists. They basically take the stance that nothing can be proved absolutely and therefore nothing can be disproved absolutely.

With Pyrrhonism we could say that flying carpets do not have any supporting evidence so they remain unproven, but we can't dismiss the idea as they're not disproven (thus allowing the belief in flying carpets).

With skepticism we would say they do not exist unless anyone can show that they do.

So these criticisms of skeptics are not coming from other skeptics, they're coming from pyrrhonists: a philosophy they hold as it is conducive to their paranormal world view (!)

Ok - sounds good to me - and might unconfuse my confusion - I'll look into pyrrhonists....(Thanks for fixing my quotes!)

[The Great Bymble]

I want to apologise, folks.

Been a busy and worrying weekend. One of my grandson’s is in hospital after pulling a hot kettle over himself.

No excuse I know but I’m not feeling myself right now.

I am truly sorry for letting myself get carried away and hijacking that thread.

I’m going to take a break.

And if it’s okay with all of you I will come back in a few days and try to put things right.
Zaira
I hope that your grandson isn't scalded too badly,and that you're back soon with recharged batteries.

[bindeweede]

AA, it's all about the philosophy of science and skepticism.

The likes of Sheldrake are not skeptics they're Pyrrhonists. They basically take the stance that nothing can be proved absolutely and therefore nothing can be disproved absolutely.

This allows them to take the stance that despite 125 years' of systematic testing of psychic abilities, for example, and there's no positive evidence for them, that they simply remain unproven (not disproved).

You see, it means if you believe in psychic powers then this stance allows people to keep on believing and keep on looking despite the contrary evidence....

This stance is based on the 'problem of induction' which was solved by Karl Popper with his idea of scientific statements being falsifiable.

What we can now say, with perfectly sound reasoning, is that if something has been tested for 125 years and no proof of it has come to light then we can say it doesn't exist (the scientific statement) with the proviso that we will change our stance should new evidence come to light (the falsifiability criterion). That is the stance taken by modern skepticism.

Modern skepticism makes a lot more sense to me. ;)

With Pyrrhonism we could say that flying carpets do not have any supporting evidence so they remain unproven, but we can't dismiss the idea as they're not disproven (thus allowing the belief in flying carpets).

With skepticism we would say they do not exist unless anyone can show that they do.

So these criticisms of skeptics are not coming from other skeptics, they're coming from pyrrhonists: a philosophy they hold as it is conducive to their paranormal world view (!)

Another stunner! Lucid, even lyrical.

[bindeweede]

Ok - sounds good to me - and might unconfuse my confusion - I'll look into pyrrhonists....(Thanks for fixing my quotes!)

AA,

You will probably have found this.....

http://www.philosophy.leeds.ac.uk/GMR/hmp/texts/ancient/sextus/outlines.html

At this time of night, it is a little on the heavy side for me. I'll leave a more thorough reading until tomorrow.

[psychicsarah]

Zaire

I have NOT been a naughty girl getting involved in serious media stuff...

This is my WORK... I have many good contacts in the media and I was just TRYING To help Madeline get some JUSTICE...unfortunately it has turned out to be a pointless attempt....


I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word) ...I am simply someone who listens to her INTUITION...

:cheesy:

[chillzero]

I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word)

:cheesy:

Odd username to pick then - isn't it?

I completely agree with you though - you are not psychic.

[vbloke]

Zaire

I have NOT been a naughty girl getting involved in serious media stuff...You have made several high profile claims both on news forums (and here), as well as in newspapers, yet have nothing to show for it. Your claims in the Sunday Mirror (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20070715/ai_n19371306) have not borne fruit. At this level of failure, most other "professionals" would judge their skills to be in dire need of training.

This is my WORK... I have many good contacts in the media and I was just TRYING To help Madeline get some JUSTICE...unfortunately it has turned out to be a pointless attempt....It has indeed been pointless. Despite all your protestations, Madeline has not been found in the area you claim she is/was and none of your other predictions (which were made on the same day that the same information was conveniently published in national and international newspapers) have come true either.

I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word) ...I am simply someone who listens to her INTUITION...I think we can all agree on your first part (you have displayed no psychic ability), although you do regularly claim to be psychic (your username, for example, or the article I have linked to above). There is a big difference between what you do and intuition though; you are claiming to know where she is and how to find her.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Zaire

I have NOT been a naughty girl getting involved in serious media stuff...

This is my WORK... I have many good contacts in the media and I was just TRYING To help Madeline get some JUSTICE...unfortunately it has turned out to be a pointless attempt....


I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word) ...I am simply someone who listens to her INTUITION...

:cheesy:

So why should anyone listen to your intuition as opposed to someone else's?

Do you believe that your intuition is somehow special?

If so, what makes it special?

[Allo Allo]

AA,

You will probably have found this.....

http://www.philosophy.leeds.ac.uk/GMR/hmp/texts/ancient/sextus/outlines.html

At this time of night, it is a little on the heavy side for me. I'll leave a more thorough reading until tomorrow.

No I hadn't - nice link - bit philosophical - still digesting it...mmmmm:-\ Dunno - >:-) I can see it fitting Sheldrake and others....didn't even know you got that kind of skeptic.....Thanks John and Bindeweede

[Zaira]

Update: Little grandson on holiday in Weymouth with his other grandparents, got burned on the legs with cup of tea not a kettle. Not as bad as first thought. Confusion down to a few hasty phone calls. Kept in hospital over weekend came home Sunday evening. Saw him yesterday. He’s doing much better, dressings coming off in a couple of days. He’s fine, just upset cause he was supposed to return to school today.

Sorry once again for the tude.

[bindeweede]

Update: Little grandson on holiday in Weymouth with his other grandparents, got burned on the legs with cup of tea not a kettle. Not as bad as first thought. Confusion down to a few hasty phone calls. Kept in hospital over weekend came home Sunday evening. Saw him yesterday. He’s doing much better, dressings coming off in a couple of days. He’s fine, just upset cause he was supposed to return to school today.




Sorry once again for the tude.
Encouraging news. Take care.

[bindeweede]

So why should anyone listen to your intuition as opposed to someone else's?

Do you believe that your intuition is somehow special?

If so, what makes it special?

I thought PS said she was leaving here and never coming back:cheesy:. Might have got that wrong, though but.

[bindeweede]

No I hadn't - nice link - bit philosophical - still digesting it...mmmmm:-\ Dunno - >:-) I can see it fitting Sheldrake and others....didn't even know you got that kind of skeptic.....Thanks John and Bindeweede

Allo Allo
"A bit philosophical"? Yes, too much for me:-[. At about point 7, me eyes started to go all funny.....................???

[brianp]

Update: Little grandson on holiday in Weymouth with his other grandparents, got burned on the legs with cup of tea not a kettle. Not as bad as first thought. Confusion down to a few hasty phone calls. Kept in hospital over weekend came home Sunday evening. Saw him yesterday. He’s doing much better, dressings coming off in a couple of days. He’s fine, just upset cause he was supposed to return to school today.

Good news!

[tolman]

This is my WORK... I have many good contacts in the media and I was just TRYING To help Madeline get some JUSTICE...unfortunately it has turned out to be a pointless attempt....

I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word) ...I am simply someone who listens to her INTUITION...
Unfortunately, you aren't someone who listens to even gentle criticism from other people, and you aren't someone with a large enough capacity to recognise and respect the truth for you to ever acknowledge when you have said things which are patently untrue, and which like most (if not all) of your 'errors' seem designed to portray you as someone with particular powers.

You would rather repeat an untruth after it has been clearly shown to be untrue than actually face reality, and that's not just an occasional event, it seems to be your basic modus operandi.

I thought PS said she was leaving here and never coming back:cheesy:. Might have got that wrong, though but.
Oh, she says that a lot, but usually it's not true.

[tolman]

No personal attack intended on anyone here.

It just all seems so....... predictable.

The psychicsarah thing was deeply predictable, in the sense that someone with no apparent respect for the truth, or for describing events in other than a deeply self-serving way will get increasingly short shrift on a site where people do rather value honesty as a necessary starting point.

[Julia]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. WHY does Sarah feel compelled to spout her drivel on sites such as UK-Skeptics or Urban Legends? Isn't it screamingly obvious that people who frequent these sites are unlikely to be bowled over by her mystic powers? Does she think that we are too stupid to notice her innumerable lies, evasions and mistakes?

[Araneus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. WHY does Sarah feel compelled to spout her drivel on sites such as UK-Skeptics or Urban Legends? Isn't it screamingly obvious that people who frequent these sites are unlikely to be bowled over by her mystic powers? Does she think that we are too stupid to notice her innumerable lies, evasions and mistakes?

Amazing isn't it, that people who value their intuition so highly are totally unable to forsee the inevitable reception when they post their drivel on sites such as this. ;D

[Ardbeg]

and an interesting bit here which had only just occurred to me too...

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof."

[/quote]

Jocky, this is what I was trying to say to you in one of my emails....except that I wasnt half as clear!

[psychicsarah]

Julia I told you why...it was all to help re Madelline

and it still is....you will soon understand...

NO I didn't go off in a huh...I had to go quiet because of what was about to happen...

Some of what I had written was too close to the bone at that point...(re Cuddle Cat etc)...so I deleted it...and the purpose of me coming onto the internet re this had been served with finding that location and reporting it

As I said the police have the record that what is now happening I have said all along



Quote from sky...

Yes I came back because I felt the thread would be pulled up because of the events of this week

It would be quite possible if only the eyes of the world weren't on this case that it would now tail off.

BUt the reality is the eyes of the world are on this situation and it keeps getting stirred and will continue to be...

The Mc Canns too are not going to take this lying down....they have come this far

'9 and back' has a third meaning too....

ie) more work needs to be done on what happened between the hours of 6 and 9....ie 9 and then back...

Same with location...take the nine (of the Dutch Tip off) ...and look back...(towards P de Luz)

(The psychic clues have been a mixture of observation, prediction and description)


I just hope and pray that ultimately this all leads to Madeline being found....

The Mc Canns are right on that...the focus needs to be on finding HER. I always said things won't really be clear until then...which is why I placed such an emphasis on LOCATION from the off...

Has the perpetrator decided to move her and so get convicted....? The detective I spoke to said it was NOT usually the norm to go back and move a body....But in this case I felt it was a HIGH possibility

2 to 4 miles...and then '9 and back'....

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Julia I told you why...it was all to help re Madelline

and it still is....you will soon understand...

NO I didn't go off in a huh...I had to go quiet because of what was about to happen...

Some of what I had written was too close to the bone at that point...(re Cuddle Cat etc)...so I deleted it...and the purpose of me coming onto the internet re this had been served with finding that location and reporting it

As I said the police have the record that what is now happening I have said all along



Quote from sky...

Yes I came back because I felt the thread would be pulled up because of the events of this week

It would be quite possible if only the eyes of the world weren't on this case that it would now tail off.

BUt the reality is the eyes of the world are on this situation and it keeps getting stirred and will continue to be...

The Mc Canns too are not going to take this lying down....they have come this far

'9 and back' has a third meaning too....

ie) more work needs to be done on what happened between the hours of 6 and 9....ie 9 and then back...

Same with location...take the nine (of the Dutch Tip off) ...and look back...(towards P de Luz)

(The psychic clues have been a mixture of observation, prediction and description)


I just hope and pray that ultimately this all leads to Madeline being found....

The Mc Canns are right on that...the focus needs to be on finding HER. I always said things won't really be clear until then...which is why I placed such an emphasis on LOCATION from the off...

Has the perpetrator decided to move her and so get convicted....? The detective I spoke to said it was NOT usually the norm to go back and move a body....But in this case I felt it was a HIGH possibility

2 to 4 miles...and then '9 and back'....

How many UK Skeptic forum members had a psychic premonition this would happen?

[Dr B]

Psychics tend to suffer from a syndrome of self-importance - that their message is the only true one.

This is why they go around trolling everywhere. Now, where is my shovel.....?

[tolman]

Has the perpetrator decided to move her and so get convicted....? The detective I spoke to said it was NOT usually the norm to go back and move a body....But in this case I felt it was a HIGH possibility
You needed a detective to tell you that people don't usually go moving bodies around?
Excluding the take/do something/dump body scenario, how many cases outside of detective fiction have you ever heard of where bodies have been moved significantly after the event?

2 to 4 miles...and then '9 and back'....
Except you effectively disowned the 2 to 4 miles, which you claimed was a mapreading mistake.
You also predicted 9 miles, 10-20km, 7 to 9 km (or miles), 9 to 15 miles, and a 20 minute drive, and quite possibly other things as well.

You certainly didn't initially see the suggestion you took from someone else of '9 and back' as meaning '9km, less some distance'.
Your best guess was that it meant someone went 9 miles and then returned home. That was just about the time that 9 miles might have looked like a good bet.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

On 4th September, Sarah said this on UKSkeptics on this thread:

Zaire

I have NOT been a naughty girl getting involved in serious media stuff...

This is my WORK... I have many good contacts in the media and I was just TRYING To help Madeline get some JUSTICE...unfortunately it has turned out to be a pointless attempt....


I am not a psychic (I have always said I hate the word) ...I am simply someone who listens to her INTUITION...

:cheesy:

On Sky News forum, posted today at 11:56

https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News&P=121&NumItems=10 (https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News&P=121&NumItems=10)


Posted by sarahmystic 10 September 07 11:56


This is about MADELINE....so please focus on HER

'9 and back' is a crucial clue and psychic clues can INDEED have many layers of meaning...

Spirit is nothing if not economical in relaying messages


So Sarah, this is a direct contradiction. In fact you also expose your modus operandi for all to see.

We all know by now you refuse to make any kind of specific prediction so you can later extract any meaning you want from those 'many layers of meaning'.

If I can be so blunt - you are starting to take the appearance of a serial liar.

[vbloke]

One thing that has bothered me about psychics, precognition and the ability to foretell events is this:

If the ability to see into the future is real, and you are "seen" committing a crime in a vision, dream or whatever - are you really guilty of that crime?

Precognition implies that the future is already set in stone, therefore, you have no true free will and you cannot help but commit the crime.

The Channel 5 programme about Chris Robinson, the Dream Detective, last night, mentioned briefly the film "Minority Report" and precrime. The original story by Philip K. Dick wrestled strongly with this - can you be guilty of a crime if you can't have any say in whether you commit it, as your destiny is already set?

You certainly can't change an action once it is in motion (much like we can't change the past), so, as a result, the idea of free will and culpability vanishes.

Simultaneously, once an event has been "seen", it instantly becomes part of the natural flow of time and enters the past, so any attempt to change it would prove impossible, even with foreknowledge of the event - any attempt to do so would create a paradox and the precognition would be wrong, therefore, unreliable.

So we have a situation where the future can be seen, but not altered, rendering it useless as a predictive tool, as any attempt to alter the future would render the precognition incorrect and therefore untenable as a predictive medium.

[Cuddles]

The Channel 5 programme about Chris Robinson, the Dream Detective, last night, mentioned briefly the film "Minority Report" and precrime. The original story by Philip K. Dick wrestled strongly with this - can you be guilty of a crime if you can't have any say in whether you commit it, as your destiny is already set?

If you think about it, the answer is very obviously no. If the future is not fixed, any visions aren't guaranteed to come true and therefore there is no reason to arrest anyone for something that might not happen. On the other hand, if the future can't be changed then it isn't possible to arrest anyone because doing so would stop them commiting the crime, which would mean the future had actually changed after all.

[vbloke]

If you think about it, the answer is very obviously no. If the future is not fixed, any visions aren't guaranteed to come true and therefore there is no reason to arrest anyone for something that might not happen. On the other hand, if the future can't be changed then it isn't possible to arrest anyone because doing so would stop them commiting the crime, which would mean the future had actually changed after all.That's my point.

We have 2 situations:
1. the future is unfixed and any predictions might not come true - therefore, it is irresponsible to arrest someone for something they might not do, as the nature of free will means they may change their minds and not commit the crime.
2. the future is fixed and arresting them would mean you have arrested someone for not committing a crime, which would mean the prediction was wrong in the first place.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

However, I don't think that any of the people making these predictions have any capability of thinking things through to this degree. It does just show how absurd the whole concept is.

[psychicsarah]

Far side of the moon .. I am NOT a liar...are YOU?

V Bloke I WILL prove it ...but not yet

I can PROVE these things I have said are TRUE

The evidence is in various Police stations (Dublin, Portimao, and Leicester) and various of my media contacts have the record that I have predicted these events BEFORE they have happened and/or come into the public domain

I also now know the reason for these 'ramblings' on the internet as you call them (over and above the reporting of that site and location previously mentioned)

I will at least reveal this to you when the time is right and NO it won't be a case of 'something predicted after the event' it is a point that will just make sense once this is all laid to rest.

If it is APPROPRIATE (which of course it may not be) I will also tell you the name of the detective I worked with on this

[Cuddles]

I also now know the reason for these 'ramblings' on the internet as you call them

You mean you didn't used to know the reason for these ramblings? Why were you doing it then?

[tolman]

Far side of the moon .. I am NOT a liar...are YOU?

V Bloke I WILL prove it ...but not yet
Sarah, I can prove you've said things which aren't true.
In fact, I've already done so, more than once, and your response has been to entirely ignore me.

If it is APPROPRIATE (which of course it may not be) I will also tell you the name of the detective I worked with on this
By that I suppose you mean "If I guessed right, at least on something".

Predictions aren't worth anything unless they're available in their entirity with reliable date-stamps so the hits can be compared with the misses. You, Sarah, do your best to prevent that by deletion, and editing, and allegedly getting whole threads pulled by site admins.

[vbloke]

Far side of the moon .. I am NOT a liar...are YOU?

V Bloke I WILL prove it ...but not yetYou can prove it right now if you so chose; simply release the "secret" information you have and we can then objectively assess it to see if it matches future events.

Unfortunately, releasing said information after the event is much like saying "I told you!" with no evidence to back it up.

I can PROVE these things I have said are TRUEThen do so, this is getting tiresome.

The evidence is in various Police stations (Dublin, Portimao, and Leicester) and various of my media contacts have the record that I have predicted these events BEFORE they have happened and/or come into the public domainAs I have said, I have now drafted letters and emails to the forces you have mentioned. If I get replies, I will post them here for all to see.

I also now know the reason for these 'ramblings' on the internet as you call them (over and above the reporting of that site and location previously mentioned)Glad to hear it. Care to share the reasons?

I will at least reveal this to you when the time is right and NO it won't be a case of 'something predicted after the event' it is a point that will just make sense once this is all laid to rest.Translation: retrofitted information layered with multiple possible meanings that could apply to anything.

If it is APPROPRIATE (which of course it may not be) I will also tell you the name of the detective I worked with on thisIt is entirely appropriate - that way, we can ascertain what was done with your information and may even help to back up your claims.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Far side of the moon .. I am NOT a liar...are YOU?

V Bloke I WILL prove it ...but not yet

I can PROVE these things I have said are TRUE

The evidence is in various Police stations (Dublin, Portimao, and Leicester) and various of my media contacts have the record that I have predicted these events BEFORE they have happened and/or come into the public domain

I also now know the reason for these 'ramblings' on the internet as you call them (over and above the reporting of that site and location previously mentioned)

I will at least reveal this to you when the time is right and NO it won't be a case of 'something predicted after the event' it is a point that will just make sense once this is all laid to rest.

If it is APPROPRIATE (which of course it may not be) I will also tell you the name of the detective I worked with on this

No, I'm not a LIAR.

I was pointing out a CONTRADICTION in your POSTINGS. One minute you are psychic, the next you aren't. What's going on?

Do I have to write in CAPITALS for you to understand?

[fruitfly]

Far side of the moon .. I am NOT a liar...are YOU?



To say you have not lied when it has been proven to you that you have is, in itself, a lie!

And STOP shouting!

[tolman]

To say you have not lied when it has been proven to you that you have is, in itself, a lie!
Actually, I'd tend to say that sufficient evidence has been provided to satisfy any sane and rational observer of Sarah's unreliability.

Since effectively she's the one trying to get people to believe she's psychic, what she thinks of her own abilities doesn't matter.
Even the people here saying 'try and be nice to Sarah' don't seem to believe her.

What's the betting that if there are any 'sympathetic police officers', they're being sympathetic out of pity rather than any confidence that she's remotely useful?

[psychicsarah]

I have NOT been proven to be a liar...I have NOT lied ...I have told the truth as I have seen it ... and no wonder I am writing in CAPITALS to make a point some of the time

It is really pointless ...this interchange is ridiculous.

Many of you assume I am lying or have an alterior motive....I am NOT and I DON'T

For people with allegedly scientific minds you make some amazingly quick assumptions about people .... Just because you don't understand something or accept that it exits .... doesn't mean you are right

I am not trying to get anyone to believe I am psychic....I used the internet to get certain information out into the public domain in the hope that it would help find Madeline

THAT IS ALL....

Goodbye

[Matt]

I have NOT been proven to be a liar...I have NOT lied ...I have told the truth as I have seen it ... and no wonder I am writing in CAPITALS to make a point some of the time
There have been multiple examples where you have not been entirely accurate.

For example with regard to the lottery prediction you made here, you announced this with the false assertion that this was in response to a challenge I made. This was false. This was demonstrated to you to be false in post to which you responded. You continued to make this claim in the knowledge that I was upset by you telling lies about my role in your lottery prediction.

Now Sarah. Being wrong is understandable. None of us can know everything. You have been wrong, been corrected, acknowledged the correction, promised to check it, had had the opportunity to check the verification and then repeated the falsehood. It's more than reasonable to presume that you said something you knew to be false.

Do you have another word for knowingly repeating falsehoods?

Would you prefer us to mollycoddle you and call you a fibber? Or perhaps it would be of service to you in playing the downtrodden martyr if we called you a bullshitter. "Intentionally deceitful" is another phrase that springs to mind.

You were caught lying. Not just saying things that were wrong but saying things you knew were wrong.

You're a liar Sarah Delamere Hurding and when a liar shouts that they're not, nobody is impressed but this predictable addition to their catalogue of lies.

[Julia]

Strong words, Matt - Sarah has obviously exhausted even your ample reserves of patience and courtesy! The one good thing about her shenanigans on BadPsychics and elsewhere is that whenever people Google her name, they'll soon find themselves confronted with the truth about Sarah Delamere Hurding. She is a self-obsessed, lying, Grade Z "celebrity" with a Bono fetish and no conscience. O0

[tolman]

I have NOT been proven to be a liar...I have NOT lied ...I have told the truth as I have seen it ... and no wonder I am writing in CAPITALS to make a point some of the time
SHOUTING doesn't make you more credible.
You have said clearly untrue things, among which are:

a) claiming you never said Madeleine had been abducted when that's exactly what you had said

b) claiming you'd predicted '9 and back' before the Dutch letter when there's no evidence you did, and substantial evidence that you didn't

c) claiming you'd been thinking about Joanna from the start, when you seemingly only started mentioning her after her name came up after the Dutch tip

d) claiming Madeleine was buried, then claiming that she wasn't, then claiming those two things were basically the same

e) changing distance predictions on the fly, and sometimes keeping several incompatible distance estimates in the air at once, then claiming any contradictions were only 'apparent' ones

f) claiming you'd always said 'it was all over very quickly' (when the suggestions of an apartment-based death looked good), when that just wasn't what you'd always said

g) claiming you'd always said that there was a 'double event' linking Madeleine and Joanna when you hadn't always said that

h) claiming that you'd basically said 'you didn't know who was involved but it wasn't Murat', despite you originally saying you did have an idea who did it whilst making several clearly Murat-directed hints

i) claiming that from the off the 9 to 15 km prediction was linked to Joanna, when the first time you mentioned it you were linking it to Madeleine

j) the multiple occasions where your use of language to describe your lottery predictions was seriously misleading, and even after the misleadingness had been specifically pointed out, you seemed incapable of acknowledging the comments of shunning being misleading in future

k) when your recollection of the newspaper lottery prediction didn't square with the available information, including the quotes you put up on your own website, you still seemed to follow the line that the quotes weren't correct even though you must have read them when you put them up

For people with allegedly scientific minds you make some amazingly quick assumptions about people .... Just because you don't understand something or accept that it exits .... doesn't mean you are right
Quick assumptions?
Someone seems at best to have a consistently terribly rose-tinted memory, and it's a quick assumption to doubt their reliability?

I am not trying to get anyone to believe I am psychic....I used the internet to get certain information out into the public domain in the hope that it would help find Madeline
Doesn't seem to have worked yet.

[psychicsarah]

You are bullies and bitches...I have had enough

I am not a liar...I have had to underplay on the internet what I know re this case and you already know the reasons I came on here
..to help re Madeline


I am NOT obsessed with Bono...I worked with him for years and he is a friend of mine with links to my family through marriage


GET LOST

[tolman]

You are bullies and bitches...I have had enough
Don't forget to slam the door as you flounce out.

I am not a liar...I have had to underplay on the internet what I know re this case and you already know the reasons I came on here
Well, love, if you're not a liar, you're one of the least trustworthy non-liars I'm ever likely to come across.

PS
I noticed you failed to address any of my points.
Still, why change the habit of a lifetime?

[tolman]

Well, guys (and gals*), who's betting she has gone for good this time?

I guess it's a good job I didn't make a comprehensive list of her mis-claims, that might have really annoyed her.

*(private joke)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

You are bullies and bitches...I have had enough

I am not a liar...I have had to underplay on the internet what I know re this case and you already know the reasons I came on here
..to help re Madeline


I am NOT obsessed with Bono...I worked with him for years and he is a friend of mine with links to my family through marriage


GET LOST

We don't really understand why you need to underplay them, or why you came on to post the fact that you knew this information. If you gave the details to the police and you can't disclose the details to us - then what is the point of telling us? That seems to be a contradiction. The only conclusion I can logically draw from that is that you wanted publicity and to be associated with the case.

There really is no reason to be posting on the internet if the information you have is so sensitive and explosive.

We are all adults here, and I guess we should be able to handle anything you can throw at us.

So come on, just let us know what you know.

At the moment, you are acting like a child with this routine. If you don't want to be treated like one, please start explaining in detail what you know and why you can't tell us.

I'm sorry you are now feeling like this, but I really don't see what is so hard about answering a few direct questions. You have a chance to redeem yourself, are you willing to take it or will this thread drag on in this manner ad infinitum?

No more ad-hominems either please. It doesn't show you in a good light.

[vbloke]

You are bullies and bitches...I have had enoughfor asking genuine, honest questions and pointing out where you have contradicted yourself on multiple occasions? That is not bullying, that is called critical examination.

I am not a liar...I have had to underplay on the internet what I know re this case and you already know the reasons I came on here
..to help re MadelineYou may not be a liar, but you have, whether deliberately or accidentally, made some claims that were untruthful and misleading.

I would also like to ask how posting your claims on various websites has "helped" Madeleine, when you already say that you went direct to the police with your information.

I am NOT obsessed with Bono...I worked with him for years and he is a friend of mine with links to my family through marriage Again, I suppose you wouldn't then mind if someone did some fact checking on this?

GET LOSTSo now you've "helped" Madeleine, how is shouting going to win you any supporters?

[Cuddles]

GET LOST


Um, you do realise this isn't your site? Feel free to leave if you want, but you can't seriously expect us to go anywhere.

[Julia]

I wonder what will have disappeared from her site when it's been "refurbished"? I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't go into full martyr mode and whine about the treatment she endured at the hands of those nasty sceptics. ::)

[tolman]

I'm not sure how much good that would do her. Fundamentally, if she was nearly always right, as she seems to suggest, it'd be odd why anyone would bully her.

What she's done on this whole sorry crime-solving-psychic spree has ensured that her name is pretty closely associated in Google with failed predictions, evasion and untruth, some of it (like here) in places where she can't get it deleted by throwing a tantrum.

Mentioning 'bullying' without giving examples could cause people to start looking, and they might well find things she wouldn't want them to read.

[bindeweede]

I wonder what will have disappeared from her site when it's been "refurbished"? I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't go into full martyr mode and whine about the treatment she endured at the hands of those nasty sceptics. ::)

But she is supposed to be psychic, isn't she, so she would have known about how her drivel would be received?

Well, in her first post, (July 15th, I believe), she said...

I had not intended to get involved psychically in the search for Maddy, but shortly BEFORE the tip off from the Dutch newspaper I got a strong message that the authorities needed to search an area 2 to 4 miles from Pereira de Luz in a North Easterly direction.

Having searched the internet for the opinion of other psychics on this matter, I was probably as confused as anyone until this STRONG message happened upon me.

(My bolding)

I might be wrong, but hasn't she said several times, that she doesn't claim to be psychic? So why the name?

It is all getting so tedious. People here have been incredibly patient and tolerant with this sad, deluded woman, PhD or not. I believe she has said she makes no money from being a psychic/non-psychic/whatever, relying on her writing.

Well, PS, best of, if you think any credibility remains.

[Julia]

Re. Sarah's academic qualifications, this is what Stirling University had to say:

"I can confirm that Sarah Hurding obtained the following qualifications from StirlingUniversity:

BA honours in English Studies

M Phil in Publishing Studies

There is no such degree as the BA Honours in English, Philosophy and Religious Studies. However she studied Philosophy and Religious Studies as part of her degree course."

If her website is anything to go by Sarah's literary skills are abysmal, and her study of philosophy hasn't taught her much about critical thinking either. Which makes me wonder (not for the first time) exactly what academic qualifications are worth - one of my neighbours was a violent, drug-addicted psycopath who somehow managed to get himself a place at university studying psychology...:shocked:

[bindeweede]

Re. Sarah's academic qualifications, this is what Stirling University had to say:

"I can confirm that Sarah Hurding obtained the following qualifications from StirlingUniversity:

BA honours in English Studies

M Phil in Publishing Studies

There is no such degree as the BA Honours in English, Philosophy and Religious Studies. However she studied Philosophy and Religious Studies as part of her degree course."

If her website is anything to go by Sarah's literary skills are abysmal, and her study of philosophy hasn't taught her much about critical thinking either. Which makes me wonder (not for the first time) exactly what academic qualifications are worth - one of my neighbours was a violent, drug-addicted psycopath who somehow managed to get himself a place at university studying psychology...:shocked:
Julia,

So this is written by someone with a BA (Hons) in English Studies, and an M. Phil in Publishing Studies....

John...I know what people think re astrology ...it is there for your interest...Any way it helped me get more of a sense of Murat in particular....it is possible if you are intuitive to get quite a detailed profile from someone re their chart...(you can 'breathe them in if you like')

I will consider your suggestion John..though not sure if I should re the legal side of this case...

This is for your interest ...I do understand the skeptical point of view...(I am academically trained)

But I think we should all be more open minded

I think you will find there is something happening re this Maddy case...

As I said we already found stuff of significance...though I find it interesting cos I do not pick up that they then did a more extensive search. (makes you wonder!)


NB...

I do not want or need public acknowledgement re Maddy...I am trying to help find her...and I do appreciate it is controversial I have come on the net to try to do so...but this is because of the agendas at play in this case. (It has already led to someone going out there and finding something...)

This is semi-illiterate garbage written by a deluded member of the human race.

Edit Posted July 24th, here.
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/report.php?p=13675)

[psychicsarah]

Julia ....

you are a complete loser...you even had to check with my universities re my qualifications...?

I also have an MSC from Edinburgh university and an M PHil in publishing Studies from Stirling University..are you going to write to them about that too?

Have you not a life of your own that you find mine so fascinating??

I feel sorry for you ....

-----------------------------

Yes I DID know how my stuff re Madeline would be received ...but I had to do this to try to help


There won't be any changes re my web site if it goes back up...but someone has bought psychic sarah.com...so it will be mysticsarah.com going forward...This is NOT about my web site anyhow...that has nothing to do with this AT ALL

----------------


Re Madeline....

I never thought this was a planned abduction...EVER

I was always hugely suspicious of the campaign and aspects of it always struck me as very inapprorpriate...

I talked of a shadowy figure because It was not time to go into the detail of who did this....nor is it really yet time.

I am not sure if the truth will ever out re this...and again I did always say that no one would be done for the crime (unless they were framed)

Madeline needs to be found for this to happen..(for the truth to come out)

But it is possible that the fact she was moved will give enough evidence of what has happened to her...But it could be too late by then (you will have to wait and see what that means ...I can't go into that for legal reasons)

I always warned you that the many citings were red herrings and that the looking for Madeline all over the world was absolutely pointless...and hindering her being found rather than helping..it made me very angry at some points I have to say because my over riding feeling has always been that she must simply be FOUND...never mind who did this

I checked with the detective who filed my reports and he said on no account would police divulge information of particular individuals working with them nor what has been said....as I thought it is confiential information...so you will never know directly from the police if psychics are used or not unless they choose to divulge this info for some reason of their own..It is confidential info and as I have said all along...just another kind of evidence.


God moves in mysterious ways and who are you to judge what I have done?

I have done what I felt was right...what more can any of us do in this life?

If it makes the difference between her being found or not...I will take it....

If it turns out to have been no use whatso ever I will take that too...at least I will have tried...



GOODBYE

[vbloke]

Julia ....

you are a complete loser...you even had to check with my universities re my qualifications...?

I also have an MSC from Edinburgh university and an M PHil in publishing Studies from Stirling University..are you going to write to them about that too?

Have you not a life of your own that you find mine so fascinating??

I feel sorry for you ....

-----------------------------

Yes I DID know how my stuff re Madeline would be received ...but I had to do this to try to help


There won't be any changes re my web site if it goes back up...but someone has bought psychic sarah.com...so it will be mysticsarah.com going forward...This is NOT about my web site anyhow...that has nothing to do with this AT ALL

----------------


Re Madeline....

I never thought this was a planned abduction...EVER

I was always hugely suspicious of the campaign and aspects of it always struck me as very inapprorpriate...

I talked of a shadowy figure because It was not time to go into the detail of who did this....nor is it really yet time.

I am not sure if the truth will ever out re this...and again I did always say that no one would be done for the crime (unless they were framed)

Madeline needs to be found for this to happen..(for the truth to come out)

But it is possible that the fact she was moved will give enough evidence of what has happened to her...But it could be too late by then (you will have to wait and see what that means ...I can't go into that for legal reasons)

I always warned you that the many citings were red herrings and that the looking for Madeline all over the world was absolutely pointless...and hindering her being found rather than helping..it made me very angry at some points I have to say because my over riding feeling has always been that she must simply be FOUND...never mind who did this

I checked with the detective who filed my reports and he said on no account would police divulge information of particular individuals working with them nor what has been said....as I thought it is confiential information...so you will never know directly from the police if psychics are used or not unless they choose to divulge this info for some reason of their own..It is confidential info and as I have said all along...just another kind of evidence.


God moves in mysterious ways and who are you to judge what I have done?

I have done what I felt was right...what more can any of us do in this life?

If it makes the difference between her being found or not...I will take it....

If it turns out to have been no use whatso ever I will take that too...at least I will have tried...



GOODBYEWhy do you insist on posting the same thing on multiple threads? It's just spamming unnecessarily.

At least we are checking your credentials, unlike the people who take you at face value - it's called fact-checking. You might want to try it yourself sometime.

[filippo lippi]

...aspects of it always struck me as very inapprorpriate...





As inappropriate as you using this tragedy for ghoulish self-promotion across the internet?

[Elin]

Hi Sarah.
I really cant understand why posting on internet can help unless the abductor/murderer would post the excact truth. If the police and you are working on this together why post on several forums?
What do you expect us readers to do?
How can I help you dear Lady?
From my point of view, your predictions have been mostly from tabloids, this today and other tomorrow...but i do think you want to help the girl like most people.

And... well...calling people loosers, and telling them to get lost if they dont agree with you is not very mature.

[tolman]

I never thought this was a planned abduction...EVER
You originally said you didn't think it was a *well*-planned abduction, but that it was an abduction carried out by someone aware of the routines.
Later on, (when an apartment death seemed to be a hot theory) you claimed you'd never said she was abducted at all, even though you had said precisely that.

I am not sure if the truth will ever out re this...and again I did always say that no one would be done for the crime (unless they were framed)
Unfortunately, whenever you utter the phrase 'I have always said', the chances seem to be that you're having a selective memory incident.
I wonder at what point in an apparently dead-end investigation you actually started doubting if someone would be caught, compared to when all the non-psychics started wondering the same thing?

I always warned you that the many citings were red herrings and that the looking for Madeline all over the world was absolutely pointless
And, as skeptics pointed out again and again almost from the moment you opened your mouth, after even a day, the odds are hugely in favour of any abducted young child not being alive, and given that most sightings would be false ones even if a child was still alive, the odds of any particular sighting being correct are miniscule.
A non-psychic playing the odds would have said exactly the same as you.
You can't honestly expect people to think you're psychic because you predict the bleeding obvious

I checked with the detective who filed my reports and he said on no account would police divulge information of particular individuals working with them nor what has been said....as I thought it is confiential information...so you will never know directly from the police if psychics are used or not unless they choose to divulge this info for some reason of their own..It is confidential info and as I have said all along...just another kind of evidence.
So, as a well-known teller of untruths, you make a self-serving claim that you reckon people can't check up on, and expect people to take it seriously?

Still, when all is over, various police forces may well feel quite free to say that no useful help has been provided by any self-styled psychics, even if they may not want to be explicit about one or other publicity-seeker or disturbed individual who they may have been humouring.

[tolman]

I do sometimes wonder whether Sarah's string of fake stormings-out are done partly in the hope someone will get downright unpleasant in choice Anglo-Saxon asking her to go away once and fog all, and then she can pretend she was forced to leave?

[bindeweede]

I do sometimes wonder whether Sarah's string of fake stormings-out are done partly in the hope someone will get downright unpleasant in choice Anglo-Saxon asking her to go away once and fog all, and then she can pretend she was forced to leave?

I am surprised it didn't happen a few weeks ago, and all credit to posters who have kept their poise, considering Sarah's proven lying and retro-fitting.

[tolman]

I am surprised it didn't happen a few weeks ago, and all credit to posters who have kept their poise, considering Sarah's proven lying and retro-fitting.
Personally, I'd get more enjoyment from *not* giving her the pleasure, and I guess other people feel similarly.

It's much more fun pointing out all the times she's said untrue things, none of which she ever seriously addresses, except by distorting events or accusing people of unfairly thinking that 2-4miles is 'apparently' different from 10-20km.

[psychicsarah]

:-\ The police and members of the media have the evidence I haven't been retrofitting...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

We disagree ::)

[bindeweede]

Sarah, in the past, also claimed she could cure depression.....

The third issue addressed by Paul concerened an article published by Ms. Hurding in the Irish Times (http://www.ireland.com/) of September 10th 2001. She wrote in response to a patient query from a reader who was suffering from depression. She spoke of depression as an illness of the spirit which could be tackled from a different angle. She talked in terms of the transmutation of negative energy and said that one session of healing may shift a depression.

Of greater concern was her statement that “on a practical level, the crystal haematite is very grounding and helps us source the correct plan of action for survival. If your depression is caused by grief and loss, the crystal amethyst is indispensable.” She went on to say that many flower essences address the causes of depression energetically, nothing beats a good cry and that her approach was eminently preferable to pill popping.

This shows a total ignorance of the nature of depression (http://www.mentalhealth.com/) and is potentially dangerous should people with serious depression attempt to treat themselves as advised by Ms. Hurding.


http://www.irishskeptics.net/?p=23

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Crystals is one of the biggest scams going. I've just never understood why they have such appeal. Nice to look at I guess, but nothing else.

[Julia]

Sarah's comments about depression are beneath contempt. >:-)

My late mother suffered from manic depression (bi-polar disorder) and had to put up with stupid and insensitive remarks like this for years. By the way, one of Sarah's many sidelines used to be "distance healing" for people and animals, which she dispensed for a mere 60 Euros. I wonder if her cure for depression is typical of her medical skills? ::)

[HeyJupiter]

This shows a total ignorance of the nature of depression (http://www.mentalhealth.com/) and is potentially dangerous should people with serious depression attempt to treat themselves as advised by Ms. Hurding.

http://www.irishskeptics.net/?p=23


Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of complementary therapies, no therapist should ever suggest to a client that they should stop taking their medication or avoid conventional medical treatment. I believe that to take such a stand would be deeply irresponsible and contrary to the entire concept of complementary therapy - which is to COMPLEMENT medical treatment.

Complementary Therapists (unless they have received medical training) are not Doctors and cannot diagnose or give medical advice.

N.B: I am not suggesting that Sarah has been irresponsible in this way towards her clients, just adding this point for clarification O0

[fruitfly]

Complementary Therapists (unless they have received medical training) are not Doctors and cannot diagnose or give medical advice.

N.B: I am not suggesting that Sarah has been irresponsible in this way towards her clients, just adding this point for clarification O0

Well, this sounds pretty close to me:

She went on to say that many flower essences address the causes of depression energetically, nothing beats a good cry and that her approach was eminently preferable to pill popping.

[bindeweede]

Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of complementary therapies, no therapist should ever suggest to a client that they should stop taking their medication or avoid conventional medical treatment. I believe that to take such a stand would be deeply irresponsible and contrary to the entire concept of complementary therapy - which is to COMPLEMENT medical treatment.

Complementary Therapists (unless they have received medical training) are not Doctors and cannot diagnose or give medical advice.

N.B: I am not suggesting that Sarah has been irresponsible in this way towards her clients, just adding this point for clarification O0

And I am suggesting that she has been irresponsible towards her clients. Not only is she not able to diagnose, she is not able to give advice. She is a person with personal problems and delusions of competence.

[psychicsarah]

I don't have medical skills...I have healing skills

I think it is beneath contempt what some of you have said about me

I am sorry I am not going to continue to rise to your bait...bye bye

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I don't have medical skills...I have healing skills

I think it is beneath contempt what some of you have said about me

I am sorry I am not going to continue to rise to your bait...bye bye

How many depressed people have you healed then?

[psychicsarah]

I am not going to divulge clients details; but several have reported back with really good results (form the time when I had the practice)

someonewhere on a chat room too is a clien'ts account re me helping to heal their bad back... I don't have the link...but I am sure you clever people will be able to find it....

over and out

[Mongrel]

someonewhere on a chat room too is a clien'ts account re me helping to heal their bad back... I don't have the link...but I am sure you clever people will be able to find it....
So, your normal standards of 'evidence' then

[Elin]

nothing beats a good cry

Aha I remember reading one of Brians cures for alzheimer, it was to cry 2 times a day, if the tears wouldnt come then go cut onions...
These two collegues are just amazing dont you think. When will people start to believe? And give them what they deserve?
The Nobel price for great discoveries that benefits the whole human race!
What a world. People all over cutting onions in tears, scent of flower essence will fill the air and lovely crystals all over.
All so happy.
:party:

[bindeweede]

Sarah, in the past, also claimed she could cure depression.....

The third issue addressed by Paul concerened an article published by Ms. Hurding in the Irish Times (http://www.ireland.com/) of September 10th 2001. She wrote in response to a patient query from a reader who was suffering from depression. She spoke of depression as an illness of the spirit which could be tackled from a different angle. She talked in terms of the transmutation of negative energy and said that one session of healing may shift a depression.

Of greater concern was her statement that “on a practical level, the crystal haematite is very grounding and helps us source the correct plan of action for survival. If your depression is caused by grief and loss, the crystal amethyst is indispensable.” She went on to say that many flower essences address the causes of depression energetically, nothing beats a good cry and that her approach was eminently preferable to pill popping.

This shows a total ignorance of the nature of depression (http://www.mentalhealth.com/) and is potentially dangerous should people with serious depression attempt to treat themselves as advised by Ms. Hurding.


http://www.irishskeptics.net/?p=23

Haematite


Principal ore of iron, consisting mainly of iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3. It occurs as specular haematite (dark, metallic lustre), kidney ore (reddish radiating fibres terminating in smooth, rounded surfaces), and a red earthy deposit.



So you might as well have given her a bag of rusty nails to sit and contemplate - just as useless.

[tolman]

someonewhere on a chat room too is a clien'ts account re me helping to heal their bad back... I don't have the link...but I am sure you clever people will be able to find it...

I understood that most bad backs (excluding stuff like slipped discs and arthritis) were actually made better by people exercising, so they're eminently suitable for motivational/psychological 'cures' which get people moving again.

[Julia]

Originally Posted by psychicsarah http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=17400#post17400)
someonewhere on a chat room too is a clien'ts account re me helping to heal their bad back... I don't have the link...but I am sure you clever people will be able to find it...


Wouldn't it be funny if they've deleted or edited the post! ;D

[Zaira]

Oh dear! I thought this would be done and dusted by now. :smiley:

[psychicsarah]

Thankyou for locking other threads..appreciate it...

Goodbye

8)

[tolman]

Talk about making the best of a bad job.

It's like when you pretended to be happy that threads here wouldn't be deleted after you'd suggested they should be deleted, and your suggestion had not been accepted, at the time when you were involved in a deletion frenzy on Sky.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Dr. B - where are you! :-\

[Zaira]

Ouch!!

[vbloke]

Thankyou for locking other threads..appreciate it...

Goodbye

8)They've been locked as we're simply rehashing the same old tired rebuttals of your same old tired claims that have been shown to be wishful thinking at best.

They're not being deleted, so the records of your evasions are permanent.

[Dr B]

Absolutely true.

These threads are now all locked - but they remain for those to see what nonsense and deception certain people are all about. It's time to move on.