Angels prevent mid-air collisions.

[bindeweede]

There must be a lot of them about.


FLYING WITH ANGELS

We had a wonderful two weeks holiday in Lanzarote. We were returning to the UK and our ‘plane was gradually descending to land at Birmingham Airport. It was early evening in late November and beneath us we could see the vast area of Birmingham lit up, stretching out into the distance, and rows and rows of car headlights on the roads and motorways.

The lights on the ‘plane dimmed and our ears popped again. I felt vaguely uneasy. I really do not like the taking off and landing. This is a good time to use my Reiki symbols. All about me I could feel a lot of tension.

I closed my eyes and began to meditate. Almost immediately I could see our ‘plane from the outside. To my great surprise, I could see many angels along each wing and around the cockpit. They looked as though they were concentrating and then conversing with one another. Their long light garments and flowing hair were blowing out behind them.

This must be my imagination, I thought. Right away a reply to my scepticism was firmly implanted in my mind.

“Have you never, ever wondered why there are so very few air traffic accidents? Just think of how many flights there are day and night, every day, every night, all the time, all over your world. Many are flying almost continually over hugely populated cities and towns. Look where many of your airports are situated! We are here to protect you. This is our element. You are enfolded in our love.”

I will never be worried about flying again!

Marcia Goffin

Nothing to do with Air-Traffic Control then??:cheesy:

[From www.healingangels.co.uk (http://www.healingangels.co.uk)]

[The Great Bymble]

There must be a lot of them about.


FLYING WITH ANGELS


“Have you never, ever wondered why there are so very few air traffic accidents? Just think of how many flights there are day and night, every day, every night, all the time, all over your world. Many are flying almost continually over hugely populated cities and towns. Look where many of your airports are situated! We are here to protect you. This is our element. You are enfolded in our love.”
I will never be worried about flying again!
Marcia Goffin
[From www.healingangels.co.uk (http://www.healingangels.co.uk)]
Using that line,what's the getout from the inescapable fact that fatal aircrashes aren't exactly unknown?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Just Where do you start with someone like that?

I guess the complexities of modern air travel are just too much for her medieval brain to comprehend. The enlightenment and age of science seems to have passed her by unfortunately. Can't her angels come down to Earth and maybe stop a few suicide bombings or car crashes?

There's an awful lot going on every time you catch a plane. Airport logistics, aircraft engineering, air traffic control, weather, human interaction - it's a hugely complex environment.

[vbloke]

So what happened on 9/11? Were the angels having a sadistic laugh?
In fact, where were the angels during all of these (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/worst100.htm)?

[brettdbass]

So what happened on 9/11? Were the angels having a sadistic laugh?
In fact, where were the angels during all of these (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/worst100.htm)?
You're just not thinking like a woo...


All of these incidents are the by-product of the angels work across the globe preventing other, much larger disasters.

All the negative forces conspire at times to bring death and destruction on a massive scale to our humble, mortal world. At such times of battle between the forces of good and evil, sometimes the good are simply outnumbered, resulting in the most unfortunate deaths we see here. Rest assured that the angels arrived on the scene immediately after the incidents to transport the souls of the victims safely into the arms of the Good Lord and banish the evil forces to their dark realm once more.
But also, praise be to the angels for having once again come to our aid and prevented a cataclysm the likes of which this planet has never witnessed.



Urgh, now I need to take two showers. >:-)

[chillzero]

brett,
Actually a lot of the 'woo' beliefs, as spoken by people like Sylvia Browne, is that these things are predetermined, and chosen by those who died there.

Sylvia claims that we all choose - before birth - the type of life we will lead, and a few points at which we may 'choose' to die. The death is as meaningful as the life. People who died on 9/11, or in the german camps, chose to do so, for some kind of greater good.

I think the reasoning is the return to faith for many in the wake of disasters, and also the impact that needs to be made on a global population in order to have some kind of spiritual shift occur.

Or something.

[bindeweede]

People who died on 9/11, or in the german camps, chose to do so, for some kind of greater good.

I wonder what sort of reaction you would get if you posted that comment on a Jewish website/forum.

[vbloke]

The one thing that really disturbs me about beliefs like this, is that, if there truly is a perfect life "after" this one, one that lasts for all eternity, where there is no suffering, we are perfect and your every whim is provided for, why would we choose to live here and now (or even, in the past, where disease and war were common)?

[chillzero]

People who died on 9/11, or in the german camps, chose to do so, for some kind of greater good.

I wonder what sort of reaction you would get if you posted that comment on a Jewish website/forum.

Can I just clarify that I do not endorse any of this - I am just passing on the info.



VBloke - it is all about the lessons the soul needs to take on to pass through the various levels of being until ultimate enlightenment. Apparently.

::)

[brettdbass]

To be more serious for a moment (I'm sure that won't last long though)...

The example put forward by Chillzero is a very good one, IMO. A very good example of why skepticisim is of vital importance in the world, now as much as ever.
See that in immediate contrast with my post, which was completely made up on the spot. Now, if you were in a position of vulnerability having just lost someone to a car/train/plane/whatever accident (ie. something beyond control or blame) it would be very easy to be taken in by either. Problem is, only one comes from a "media recognised, internationally acclaimed psychic", the other comes from a frustrated musician in Leicester who just happens to be a skeptic. And of course, earlier in the thread there was the other example provided by bindeweede.

If you asked a hundred different mediums you'd get a hundred different explanations, all covered with comforting platitudes of course. If you asked a hundred different religious leaders, the same would apply.
The massive problem here is that there are literally hundreds of thousands of self-professed psychics and mediums around the world now, many millions surely over the course of just the past few hundred years, never once with the exact same story - how can that be?
What about the religions then? Hmm, there are LOTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions) to choose from here as well, again all with a different explanation.

I see this as the maybe the closest we get to evidence against the superparanormanatural. Add in all the extra gumph like Tarot, crystal healing, homeopathy, candle magic, tea leaf reading, dowsing, blah-blah-blah... it's just getting silly now!

So, what's in it for these people? Why do they perpetuate their own chosen brand of waffle?
Altruism - it makes me feel nice to help people.
Power - it makes me feel awesome to have command over people's lives.
Fear - what if I don't worship this god and he comes and smites me into hell for all eternity?
Money - the almighty dollar.

Altruism is probably excusable, these people mostly genuinely believe within themselves that what they do brings good to other people, and sometimes they will be right, but it remains in part still a selfish act in all but the rarest of cases. Sadly, of course, even the genuine can be easily swayed by the temptations of power and money.

So, why is it vitally important to promote skepticisim and critical thinking? Because there are no other tools effective against the charlatans and their persuasive, opportunistic, sometimes life-destroying exploitation. If the good few are put out by it, well I'm a little bit sorry, but we cannot let the many thousands of crooks and criminals (the Sylvia Brownes of this world) continue unchallenged. Ok, perhaps this is a somewhat altruistic take on the reason for being a skeptic, but that's probably excusable too ;)

[bindeweede]

There's a little more on Sylvia Browne here -

http://www.stopsylvia.com/articles/contradiction_meetingfrancine.shtml

[bindeweede]

Sylvia says Jesus died aged 33. Or was it when he was 86 and living in France?

http://www.stopsylvia.com/articles/contradiction_jesusageatdeath.shtml

[bindeweede]

Sylvia Browne would like people to believe she has the psychic ability to communicate with the dead and to diagnose their ailments. She has broken three promises made on international television to take the JREF One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html). More than two years have passed since her first promise. I don't believe she ever intended to take the test. Do you think any talk-show hosts will care?

This quote comes from "Quackwatch."

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/browne.html

And more......
she and her estranged husband were subsequently indicted on several counts of investment fraud and grand theft

which comes from

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_6_28/ai_n6361823


Oh yes, and even more -

http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2003/01/08/psychic/index1.html

[brettdbass]

Ah, bindeweede, you've tapped into a rich vein there. Happy mining!

[Cuddles]

Sylvia Browne would like people to believe she has the psychic ability to communicate with the dead and to diagnose their ailments. She has broken three promises made on international television to take the JREF One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html). More than two years have passed since her first promise. I don't believe she ever intended to take the test. Do you think any talk-show hosts will care?

That quote seems a little out of date. According to the front page of Randi's site, it is now six years (and one day) since she agreed to a protocol, and even longer since she agreed to take the challenge.

[bindeweede]

That quote seems a little out of date. According to the front page of Randi's site, it is now six years (and one day) since she agreed to a protocol, and even longer since she agreed to take the challenge.

Yes, it was posted in July 2003. But as far as I know, she has not yet kept her word.

[bindeweede]

Ah, bindeweede, you've tapped into a rich vein there. Happy mining!

Indeed, it's great fun digging up stuff about this charlatan - and there's tons of it about. But she still seems to get money from US talk shows.

[bindeweede]

brett,
Actually a lot of the 'woo' beliefs, as spoken by people like Sylvia Browne, is that these things are predetermined, and chosen by those who died there.

Sylvia claims that we all choose - before birth - the type of life we will lead, and a few points at which we may 'choose' to die. The death is as meaningful as the life. People who died on 9/11, or in the german camps, chose to do so, for some kind of greater good.

I think the reasoning is the return to faith for many in the wake of disasters, and also the impact that needs to be made on a global population in order to have some kind of spiritual shift occur.

Or something.

Chillzero,

Your post has quite disturbed me over the last few days, regarding what Sylvia Browne said about prople choosing to die on 9/11, or the german camps. I wonder if she includes natural disasters - tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanoes. I've been driving around thinking this is insane - how on Earth could she get away with saying something so monstrous?

Do you have any links to articles, or quotes from her books? I've had a quick look on her site, but it's mostly about selling stuff.

I am not questioning your post, but I find comments like that incomprehensible.

[bindeweede]

Apparently, she is using hypnosis now to part the gullible from their money.


http://www.sylviabrownehypnosis.com/

[Allo Allo]

I am not questioning your post, but I find comments like that incomprehensible.

Hi Bindeweed

I'm not Chillzero, but come from the same background. Here's my explanation....

The idea here is that we are born being in control of our incarnation in so far as we have planned our lives before birth. We have made choices that lead to our further education (spiritually) in those challenges, problems, successes or joys that we experience when we are struggling (or enjoying) being human. We are considered primarily spiritual beings who use a physical, human life as our school. It would be accepted that we have been human many times before - and that there is no death, except of the physical body. Death is not seen as the end - only as a transition. It is not the terrible thing that is suggested by some - only a natural process where the consciouness withdraws from the physical body . After death, you (not "god"!) review your life and you decide where your failings might lie. After a rest and contemplation of your failures or successes, you decide whether you would like to try again, or not. In your life you have free will though, in that you might not actually do what you came to do - or help those you came to help - it is your choice.

Furthermore, some souls might contract to die a violent death, or with others doing so, or in whole groups for the greater good of the world. So no life lost is considered a waste....nor taken lightly. Some souls might come in to experience (or assist others) facing problems of disability, abuse etc.

This is the general idea. Of course it's incomprehensible if you don't believe it! ;)

It is not quite the same as the Hindu idea of Karma....

[bindeweede]

Hi Bindeweed

I'm not Chillzero, but come from the same background. Here's my explanation....

The idea here is that we are born being in control of our incarnation in so far as we have planned our lives before birth. We have made choices that lead to our further education (spiritually) in those challenges, problems, successes or joys that we experience when we are struggling (or enjoying) being human. We are considered primarily spiritual beings who use a physical, human life as our school. It would be accepted that we have been human many times before - and that there is no death, except of the physical body. Death is not seen as the end - only as a transition. It is not the terrible thing that is suggested by some - only a natural process where the consciouness withdraws from the physical body . After death, you (not "god"!) review your life and you decide where your failings might lie. After a rest and contemplation of your failures or successes, you decide whether you would like to try again, or not. In your life you have free will though, in that you might not actually do what you came to do - or help those you came to help - it is your choice.

Furthermore, some souls might contract to die a violent death, or with others doing so, or in whole groups for the greater good of the world. So no life lost is considered a waste....nor taken lightly. Some souls might come in to experience (or assist others) facing problems of disability, abuse etc.

This is the general idea. Of course it's incomprehensible if you don't believe it! ;)

It is not quite the same as the Hindu idea of Karma....

AA,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You have not actually said that you believe this. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you would like to, but you still have doubts. Unsure.

I do find it incomprehensible, and I don't believe it. Death is a natural process, but consciousness going here, there, or anywhere is a delusion, in my opinion. And if those people really had chosen to die, which I still believe is the most vile thing I have ever seen expressed, then they could have chosen not to burn to death in an aircraft, be crushed to death in a 110-storey building collapsing, or being tortured or gassed to death in the concentration camps.

The idea is little short of insanity.

[bindeweede]

The more I think about it, the more disturbing it becomes, and the more disturbed I feel.

Perhaps I am over-reacting, which I confess to be prone to doing, but this idea, if I have understood it correctly, and if it has been expressed correctly, is totally evil.

[Allo Allo]

AA,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You have not actually said that you believe this. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you would like to, but you still have doubts. Unsure. No - you asked for an explanation - and I know my stuff - this way of thinking gives much comfort to many people because it gives meaning to life without the god bit! It is a "belief" though, and all hinges on consciousness being inter-dimensional.....if it did work this way....it should be measurable....and testable - even by the subjective exploration of consciousness - but just like the gobbledegook produced by psychics, much of it is more gobbledegook!

The idea is little short of insanity. ;D

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hi Bindeweed

I'm not Chillzero, but come from the same background. Here's my explanation....

The idea here is that we are born being in control of our incarnation in so far as we have planned our lives before birth. We have made choices that lead to our further education (spiritually) in those challenges, problems, successes or joys that we experience when we are struggling (or enjoying) being human. We are considered primarily spiritual beings who use a physical, human life as our school. It would be accepted that we have been human many times before - and that there is no death, except of the physical body. Death is not seen as the end - only as a transition. It is not the terrible thing that is suggested by some - only a natural process where the consciouness withdraws from the physical body . After death, you (not "god"!) review your life and you decide where your failings might lie. After a rest and contemplation of your failures or successes, you decide whether you would like to try again, or not. In your life you have free will though, in that you might not actually do what you came to do - or help those you came to help - it is your choice.

Furthermore, some souls might contract to die a violent death, or with others doing so, or in whole groups for the greater good of the world. So no life lost is considered a waste....nor taken lightly. Some souls might come in to experience (or assist others) facing problems of disability, abuse etc.

This is the general idea. Of course it's incomprehensible if you don't believe it! ;)

It is not quite the same as the Hindu idea of Karma....

The problem with Sylvia Browne being that she has previous convictions for fraud, and has contradicted herself in her beliefs enough times to fill a book. She only really believes in the dollar. StopSylviaBrowne and the JREF are definately the best two places to find out what she is all about.

[chillzero]

Chillzero,

Your post has quite disturbed me over the last few days, regarding what Sylvia Browne said about prople choosing to die on 9/11, or the german camps. I wonder if she includes natural disasters - tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanoes. I've been driving around thinking this is insane - how on Earth could she get away with saying something so monstrous?

Do you have any links to articles, or quotes from her books? I've had a quick look on her site, but it's mostly about selling stuff.

I am not questioning your post, but I find comments like that incomprehensible.

Hi,
I'm sorry you feel so upset by this, but that is one of the reasons I will act against people like Sylvia Browne when possible. This kind of belief is illogical, and can be dangerous. Imagine the impact of this belief in a deluded person who thinks God talks to them? They have a famous person backing up delusions that they are predestined to undertake whatever retribution, or dangerous act they may choose. Additionally, I don't think I would take any comfort from believing a relative chose to leave me in such a manner.

Yes, she includes natural disasters, and Allo Allo has given a fair description of the beliefs. I will have a hunt about for you for more specific links, although I think much of it comes from Sylvia's books. She isn't the only person to espouse these beliefs, mind you, so a browse of the new age section of Waterstones will probably chuck up a few more similar things.

The StopSylviaBrowne site is one of the best resources for this kind of information as noted by FarSide, so I highly recommend it.

[bindeweede]

Chillzero

Thanks for that. I have already visited the "Stop Sylvia Browne" site, but only fairly briefly. I think I will do a little more digging.

[bindeweede]

Well, I have managed to find this, written by Claus Larsen from www.skepticreport.com (http://www.skepticreport.com)


Holocaust victims chose to be gassed
One of her most outrageous claims is that Holocaust victims have chosen their destiny - they are not victims, nobody should pity them. According to Browne, before we are reborn, we write a "chart" in which we determine how we will live our upcoming life. We have 44 different ways of living it, no more, no less. Apparently, millions of Jews decided to sacrifice themselves in order to make humanity aware of evil - as if we didn't know evil before. Your fate in this life is determined by yourself, no matter what happens to you. Unless, of course, you are a victim of the actions of people from the Dark Side...
<A name=charts>And as for the victims of 9-11...
Guess what? The victims who died in the World Trade Center attacks agreed to do so (before they were born) to make Americans more "cohesive and patriotic". But nobody suffered in the attacks! Not even the people who made heartbreaking phonecalls from underneath the rubble before they died a slow, agonizing death. And yet, Browne "didn't feel anyone suffered" when she visited Ground Zero...

She didn't see the attacks coming, either: "I really didn't see it, that's what all the skeptics have said, "Why didn't you see it?" And if it's supposed to happen, you can't see it. All I saw the whole week before was fire. I kept calling my son's house. When it hit I was like "Oh my God, that's the fire." But I don't know any psychic that got a bead on it. "

From the MSN chat session with Sylvia Browne, on October 30th, 2001</B>Not a single psychic saw this coming? If it is supposed to happen, then you can't see it? What is the use of psychic abilities then? Can you only see what isn't supposed to happen? Are all her predictions about what will not happen? Or can she only see the future after it has happened?
If your stomach churns, you are not alone...

[bindeweede]

The full article the above was pasted from is here, for anyone interested...

http://www.skepticreport.com/psychicpowers/sylviabrowne.htm

[bindeweede]

Can I just clarify that I do not endorse any of this - I am just passing on the info.



VBloke - it is all about the lessons the soul needs to take on to pass through the various levels of being until ultimate enlightenment. Apparently.

::)

Chillzero

I meant to apologise. I misunderstood that post. Having read a lot of your posts on other threads, I realise that I had jumped to a totally inaccurate conclusion.

[bindeweede]

This is worthy of PsychicSarah....

No - you asked for an explanation - and I know my stuff - this way of thinking gives much comfort to many people because it gives meaning to life without the god bit! It is a "belief" though, and all hinges on consciousness being inter-dimensional.....if it did work this way....it should be measurable....and testable - even by the subjective exploration of consciousness - but just like the gobbledegook produced by psychics, much of it is more gobbledegook!

The word is "junk".

[bindeweede]

Freedom rules.

This did not turn out as I wanted, which is probably just as well.