How might it be done?

[chillzero]

I am starting this new thread to discuss specific experiences which have convinced people about psychic abilities. The first few posts are from the thread about psychic mentality - how psychics fool / cover for themselves.

I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.

This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.

Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).

Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!

[chillzero]

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?



So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.



I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

[chillzero]

At the time, I was willing to give anything a go. And I think I knew somewhere deep down that regardless of what people (psychic or otherwise) said to me, I'd have to find my own way.

Apart from that, I've always been a bit 'suspicious'. I dont know if that's the right word - the attitude was - let me give this a go because I have access to him and I dont want to regret it. Maybe he will help...its worth a shot. Or maybe wont and I'll have lost some money at worst. At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes?? <IMG class=inlineimg title="<IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0>) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like. This reading has led me to understand about cold reading and hot reading and various other tricks psychic use and that's how I discount 99% of what has been said....if I can find some explanation of it (regardless of probablity) my mind will refuse to believe it (because I'm a bit silly that way - or maybe just sceptical...I dont know). But to be believed, its has to be beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?

Ok, this is a long story. I was practising as a lawyer in India and my boss arranged a 2 week placement at a firm in London while I was over on a holiday. I wasnt taking calls at work (didnt know what the work etiquette in this country was and anyway, I just one person in the whole of the UK then and she was out of the country). The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm (and anyway, it wasnt a well known firm) and certainly didnt know the name of Rustam Dubash. Rustam was just the contact point. He did litigation and although I was in the same department, I wasnt working with him directly, although its fair to say that he was 'in-charge' of me and my main point of contact for those 2 weeks.

I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible! :-[ Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).


So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

I've been to see many many psychics, astrologers and various loopy people in my lifetime. Partly because my superstitious family insists on dragging me along (and its easier to go rather than take a stand and say I dont care because of a weird cultural thing - will explain further if you want). Over the years, I've concluded that 99.9% of them are frauds and make stuff up as they go along. I havent found ONE PERSON who has made an accurate prediction about the future. But I have come across a couple of people who have said specific stuff they couldnt have known - and this is really specific - like the name and my relationship to Rustam Dubash.

I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself - Forget it, lets see how things turn out. I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking. :-[ But he HAD said Rustam Dubash which was SOO specific. So I took the easy way out and said, whatever is to be will be.

Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.

I dont mind in the least. I am happy to be put up for scrutiny as I am as keen on the truth as anyone else. I have, to my bestest possible ability, tried to look for reasons how Emile could have come up with a specific name. I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India. Also, he gave me both the first name and the surname. Unusual since we all know how psychics would work in this situation (hmmm, I see a male presence...his name begins with R....he's very important in your life...maybe someone you work with? Or a boyfriend / husband?)...Enile didnt do any of this. It wasnt even in context as we were discussing my personal situation and I had not problems at work and Rustam Dubash was really out of the blue.

I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

Maybe we can get to the bottom of it or maybe we wont be able to. But it would be interesting to see what explanations come up because at the end of the day, like you said, this incident exists only in my memory and if there's an explanation, the only one who can come up with it will be me. I am happy to be scrutnised. I am happy to admit that I may not have considered some angle or some way in which he could have got this information. The reason I can answer most of your questions is because I have asked them myself at some stage and discarded them since they havent provided a relevant explanation for me. I have gone through this a zillion times...I've tried my best not to embellish it with time or everytime its come up. I've tried to stick to what I remember. Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.

Sorry for the long post.

[chillzero]

(missed one - sorry John)

Originally Posted by Ardbeg http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=15692#post15692)
However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

Well Chilly's already alluded to this but did you leave a contact number when you made the call and was it your (then) current work number?

This is one trick they use. They'll take a contact number just in case they need to change the appointment etc. (unforseen circumstances and all that!!) but they will ring the number regardless.

If it's a home number they can pretend to be a marketing company or something and ask you a few questions or if you're out may even get a few details from your answering machine.

As for work, they may call and get the company name etc., and if it's not too far away, even go and do a fact-finding mission on you.

So, asking for a contact number (which seems fair enough) is a known method they use to discover background information on clients. Can you rule that out? ???

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This isn't directly related to how he might do things, but why.

Anyone who provides a service needs to show that they are value for money. If you say he was expensive, then he has more of a need to make the big hit. He needs to do this to convince you that he is worth his fee, and also to maintain his reputation for future business. I guess a lot of business comes his way via word of mouth. He also needs to do this to create some sort of gap between his readings and those of the plethora of 'amateur' psychics such as tarot and tea leaf readers.

I believe that would provide a motive as to why he may be willing to go the extra mile to find out a bit more about you. In effect, he is putting in the work to justify his price.

Of course, this does put psychics in the seemingly damned-if-they-do-and-damned-if-they-dont't position. We'll criticise them when they come out with vague details obtained from cold-reading, and also when they produce a piece of specific data obtained through legitimate sources. But it is the fact that they do obtain information from legitimate sources occasionally which is the key to their con.

[chillzero]

At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes?? (<IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.

So, at the moment you have had 2 husbands. Statistically in the UK this is not much of a guess, and may become untrue in the future (although I wish you eternal matrimonial happiness, of course). However, at the time he told you this, it was too early to determine accuracy.

Many psychics work by making vague 'predictions' for the future, that you have to 'wait and see', because then you can't directly contradict them at the time. If you were quite young at the time of reading, instead of telling you you would have one husband, and risk the possibility that you have divorced from a teenage marriage already, adding another husband is a safe bet. If you were not married at all at the time, he can still convince you this will be correct in the future.

What is worrying is how some people would then approach their first marriage as if it was a predetermined waste of time; convinced that the prediction is true and that they will later find someone who treats them better than this first spouse.

I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like.

Well, memory is a funny thing - especially revisited memories. You may be shocked at how much the event has actually changed in your mind over the years. I am sure someone can provide excellent links on memory fallability.

The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm

Are you absolutely, 100% certain that this never came up? When arranging where to stay, did you never mention that you needed to be near the offices of Such-And-Such?

I could suggest that your friend, or your friend's friend may have known this person you worked with, or maybe even Emile knew people who worked with you, but it seems a lot like fishing. It can't be confirmed anyway, so is only a suggestion. People do not live in isoltaiton, after all.

I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible! :-[ Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).

So, she may have mentioned that you are interested in finding out about your place of work, and there exists the possibility that although you never mentioned where you worked directly to him (as far as you remember) you friend might have done.

I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself -

Surprisingly, this is a bit of a misunderstanding that is quite common. People claim that psychics don't just tell them what they wanted to hear, and this convinces them more about the ability. Whether you want to hear it or not does not affect the accuracy. Additionally, some people are really good at determining the 'right' thing to say, and this is not necessarily some nicety to make the client fele better - in fact often a psychic will confront a person with news they clearly do not want to hear. It surprises them; sets them on edge and throws them off guard for whatever is said next. Often it completely distracts people from watching their body language, or guarding a specific comment the intended to keep to themselves. Also, it creates a more visible reaction for the psychic to read.

I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking. :-[ But he HAD said Rustam Dubash which was SOO specific. So I took the easy way out and said, whatever is to be will be.

So, out of the entire reading, only this one little fact was correct. T his one fact that wasn't really relevant or important except in convincing you of the man's ability. Don't you find that suspicious in itself?

Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.

It's not the first time I have read what you have to say here, and wondered "why do you bother?". Really - if all you are doing is spending money to spend time with someone who's advice you will ignore anyway, what do you get out of it?

I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India.[quote]
Many non-Indian people would not know this. The ignorance of other cultures in the UK is quite shocking. However, I don't feel he was guessing about, if he really did give you the full name if you recall it correctly. The alternative is that you misremember exactly how accurate he was compared with how much feedback you gave him.

[quote=ardbeg;15723]Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.
I think this part says a lot - you may have missed something, but we can never really know without a time machine, or amazing memory extractor. I am glad you are open to examining the possibilities.

[Ardbeg]

[quote=chillzero;15726][/color]

So, at the moment you have had 2 husbands. Statistically in the UK this is not much of a guess, and may become untrue in the future

Except that at the time I was not resident in the UK but was here for a holiday and my short stint at the work placement. Ofcourse, having said this, there is no way that Emille could have known that and may have been using a 'British model' so to speak to make that guess. So I agree with you, which is one of the reasons why it doesnt stick out as a 'pure' piece of info in my mind.

Many psychics work by making vague 'predictions' for the future, that you have to 'wait and see', because then you can't directly contradict them at the time.

I agree and Emille did some of that.

What is worrying is how some people would then approach their first marriage as if it was a predetermined waste of time; convinced that the prediction is true and that they will later find someone who treats them better than this first spouse.

I can safely say that I didnt. This incident happened in 2000 and I tried very hard for another 5 years to keep my marriage together but had to call it a day because of the emotional and mental (and physical) toll it was taking. I decided that on a cost benefit analysis, the cost wasnt worth the benefit I was getting.



Well, memory is a funny thing - especially revisited memories.


I agree. I have tried my bestest not to embellish to change the memory in any way. Having said that, there is no guarantee that I have succeeded.

Are you absolutely, 100% certain that this never came up? When arranging where to stay, did you never mention that you needed to be near the offices of Such-And-Such?

I am 1000% sure. Like I said, I didnt want to mention the name of the firm because I didnt want to sound like I was in a crappy firm (Truth be told, it wasnt crappy, but I was being stupid because it wasnt a magic circle firm!). And anyway, as a young person from a third world (!) country, I couldnt afford to be choosy about acco. I was lucky that I was having use of someone's house in the first place. And the house was in Clapham and the office was near Cannon Street (again an area where there are lots of law firms so not really easy tp pick a speicific one - and then a specific person from that firm identified by both first name and surname).

I could suggest that your friend, or your friend's friend may have known this person you worked with, or maybe even Emile knew people who worked with you, but it seems a lot like fishing. It can't be confirmed anyway, so is only a suggestion.

Probably. Who knows?! Although there was nothing to suggest that any of them did. In fact, subsequently, the friend's husband was involved in a helicopter crash and wanted to make a personal injury claim. I recommended this firm and the friend didnt seem to have any familiarity with the firm. Circumstantial ofcourse, but revealing nonetheless. Like I said, its definitely a probablity but highly unlikely since the name of the firm wasnt ever revealed to the friend in the first place.

So, she may have mentioned that you are interested in finding out about your place of work, and there exists the possibility that although you never mentioned where you worked directly to him (as far as you remember) you friend might have done.

True. Although, I am sure I never revealed the name of the firm to her in the first place! Assuming I am wrong, it would still be very difficult to zero in on a specific name within the firm considering that there were around 150 partners and atleast 6-7 of them had strong Indian connections.

in fact often a psychic will confront a person with news they clearly do not want to hear. It surprises them; sets them on edge and throws them off guard for whatever is said next. Often it completely distracts people from watching their body language, or guarding a specific comment the intended to keep to themselves. Also, it creates a more visible reaction for the psychic to read.

I agree completely and this is the main reason why I discounted everything else Emille said, although some of it did come true. In my mind, even though some of these predictions turned out to be true, I cant believe it to be indicative of psychic ability because the evidence was tainted to begin with. Except with regard to the specific name - Rustam Dubash.

So, out of the entire reading, only this one little fact was correct. T his one fact that wasn't really relevant or important except in convincing you of the man's ability. Don't you find that suspicious in itself?

Its not true that it was only this one little fact that was correct in the entire reading. As mentioned above, some of his predictions came true but because the process was tainted I cant bring myself to place reliance upon them and treat them as indicative of psychic ability. The reason I am inclined not to treat the bit about Rustam Dubash the same way is that -1) he did not lead me to it; 2) I did not mention the work background because it wasnt relevant and since he was expensive (to me at the time) I wanted to focus on my problems (on the personal front); 3) I did not mention the name of the firm or my contact person in that firm to my friend because she was out of the country. Our phone calls were basically to ensure that I hadnt set the house on fire or allowed it to be burgled, with the exception of two occasions, one from my end to request her to set up a meeting if possible and second from her to confirm that one had been set up; 4) EVEN IF he led me to it, I cant bring myself to believe that someone can come up with a name like that - specific first and surname and an unusual one. Also, having had experience of 'psychics' in the past, I knew that the pattern would usually be "the name begins with R"!

Really - if all you are doing is spending money to spend time with someone who's advice you will ignore anyway, what do you get out of it?

I can assure you that I dont spend money on them any more. But its taken me time to come to this conclusion and I am sure you agree that we each have a right to figure our paths our own way and in our own time. :smiley: Apart from that, I thought I said in my earlier post that most of the time I would be dragged by my family and in Indian culture, its very rude to refuse elders (specially parents). So, if it isnt terribly important, I just go along to keep the peace. I'd rather save my energy to fight it out when the issue is really important and this one isnt to me. Its easier for me to turn up, nod my head politely and pretend to be accepting of it and then go my own way and do my own thing. My parents arent going to change their lifetime of habit even though I have tried to dissuade them. Some things just arent worth the fight. For me, this is one of them.

However, I don't feel he was guessing about, if he really did give you the full name if you recall it correctly. The alternative is that you misremember exactly how accurate he was compared with how much feedback you gave him.

Even at the time he mentioned it, I was SHOCKED. I quickly scanned my head to see if I had made any comment and can safely say that I hadnt. After I came away, I thought about it some more and tried to remember if I had mentioned to the friend. And then I tried to 'test' her to see if she knew where I worked and it turned out that she didnt. These are the reasons this has stuck in my mind. Honestly speaking, at the end of the day, it doesnt matter either way (but then, not much in life does at the end of the day!!;D). But it is the pursuit of truth and of knowledge. And I would like to think that in my life, I have done justice to that atleast in some measure.

I think this part says a lot.

That's true. I may have missed something and therefore, the info in my head may have been tainted to begin with, which allowed the mistake to continue all these years. If this was just one incident, I would have eventually forgotten about it. But it isnt. There are atleast a couple more which I find stick out in the same way. Once or twice can be put down to coincidence. Beyond that, I am forced to start looking at alternatives.

Thanks for your patience on this. It really helps to have a sounding board on this! Really appreciate your time and effort.

[Ardbeg]

I am happy to provide information on the other stuff I referred to above to anyone who wants to know. Like I said earlier, I am perfectly happy for my theories to be blown apart! ;D

[chillzero]

Please feel free to continue this discussion.

I didn't mean to imply that you specifically had tainted your first marriage from this reading. It was meant as a general comment about how often people will make decisions, or act on certain information based on what a psychic has told them. I think that's a sad thing, and one reason I now speak so strongly against them.

I appreciate your candour in discussing this, and look forward to debating any further information you may wish to investigate. I don't think we can go much further with this one as it now basically comes down to your memory of the reading, your knowledge of the events prior to the reading and how you have examined it since. It's all too subjective beyond what we have already discussed. I honestly can't determine how he knew this name, but I can't persuade myself that it was though any psychic means.

[Ardbeg]

Please feel free to continue this discussion.

I didn't mean to imply that you specifically had tainted your first marriage from this reading.

Thanks for that but to be honest, I wouldnt have been offended either way. I know what you mean about people sort of sitting back and expecting life to take its course because of a prediction. I do have an approach to this. Its summed up in the little story below (you may have come across it and apologies for boring you if you have) -

There was a priest in this little village which was flooded because of torrential rains. Many villagers gathered in the church seeking refuge from the floods, comforted by the priest's assertions that God would save them. Eventually, the water entered the church and some people left the church and went to higher ground. Some merely moved to the upper floor. The waters continued to rise. Eventually, a few rescuers managed to get to the people stranded in the church and many more made their escape. The priest tried to dissuade them saying that they didnt trust God to take care of them. He stayed on, convinced that his Lord would save him. The waters continued to rise and they moved to the roof. A helicopter came by the rescued all the remaining people but the priest refused to leave the roof convinced thaty God would save him. Eventually he was the only one left.

The waters continued to rise and and the priest was carried away by the waters. He came upon a branch and people around shouted at him to get hold of it and hang on and they would rescue him. He refused, convinced that his God would not abandon him. Ofcourse, he drowned.

In heaven, he met God and was really cross with Him. He said, "My Lord, you asked me to trust you and I did and you still let me drown. Why?" And the Lord said,"You drowned because of your own stupidity. I tried to send help three times but you did not accept it. Its your own fault not mine".

The above rings true for me (notwithstanding the actual existence or otherwise of the God in question!), because regardless of whether 'predictions' are true or otherwise, we need to continue what we were planning to anyway. If we fall sick we need to go to the doctor, not ignore medicines and expect the 'Universe' to step in magically and cure us! That really sums up my attitude to this. Its interesting, but it doesnt affect the way I live my life. (I dont know if its just entertainment value in my lilfe - will have to think about it)

I appreciate your candour in discussing this, and look forward to debating any further information you may wish to investigate. I honestly can't determine how he knew this name, but I can't persuade myself that it was though any psychic means.

I dont know if it was psychic or not. That's why I am on the fence and not ready to dismiss it fully. I suspect that there are some processes which we dont fully understand yet. At the same time, I am pretty sure that this 'ability' is not as common as its made out to be, nor as reliable. At best, someone may pick out one or two small inconsequential things and that's it. the rest is guesswork and intuition. But either way, I am not completely satisfied by the arguments on either side.

[Matt]

Interesting that the friend who made the appointment for your thought that the consultation was to be about your work life and the one tangible fact that Emile provided was from your work life.

I can't speculate on what detective work the Emile did to discover this name simply because there are so many options. If you hire a private detective they'll find out far more information about a person than the name of the person they report to and with just as little to go on.

[Allo Allo]

How it might be done? Hmmm….

I have known a few “psychics” in my time. I have not known any that desperately scrabble about looking to find information about their clients before a visit – though I’m not saying some don’t. It would seem a most difficult and time-consuming effort – especially if you have several clients a week – or even a day don’t you think? I really don’t think this happens much because it’s hardly physically practical. So for me, it’s not a good explanation.

I think Psychicism does exist. I think it only occurs under certain conditions. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up in a laboratory. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up on stage, nor by seeing clients and giving readings unless it just happens that the conditions are right. I think trying to suggest it doesn’t exist is about as silly as saying Dowsing doesn’t work when Dowsers are used by Corporations often in conjunction with Geophysicists because it is quick, cheap and accurate.

I think science itself will eventually come to find a mechanism to explain how some things happen in the brain without a seeming physical explanation. I do not believe psychism is supernatural in any way – peri-natural to coin Dawkins phrase. In this category would fall ESP, thought projection, deja vue, premonitions, intuitions, gut feelings, OBE, NDE, presences, ghosts? helpful voices, and other experiences. So far, they are given psychological explanations, or magnetic field explanations. If a suggestion is put forward that science has still to discover a mechanism such as this or that possible theory, it is howled out of hearing by the derision of mainstream scientists. So we might have to wait for a generation of scientists to snuff it before any “new” theories are accepted…which is a pity for me ‘cause I won’t be around to see it.

How it might be done explanations are valid in many cases. The psychics making asses out of themselves finding Madeleine are the type of psychic we could do without – that includes all who use it to generate fame, status etc. Maybe they once did have a genuine psychic experience and continued on from there thinking they were “psychic”.

But how it might be done followed too literally, excludes the possibility that certain things are inexplicable at the moment because science hasn’t discovered how it actually IS done!

Well that’s just me……

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

How it might be done? Hmmm….

I have known a few “psychics” in my time. I have not known any that desperately scrabble about looking to find information about their clients before a visit – though I’m not saying some don’t. It would seem a most difficult and time-consuming effort – especially if you have several clients a week – or even a day don’t you think? I really don’t think this happens much because it’s hardly physically practical. So for me, it’s not a good explanation.


It's might not be common, but it must happen sometimes. It's a viable explanation in many cases - certainly more probable than the fact that psychic abilities exist. It is practical where there is a need. Psychics live off their reputation so if they can pull of a big hit every now and then, it will enhance that and their earning power. Of course I agree that most psychics are just cold reading as that is enough for their clients most of the time.


I think Psychicism does exist. I think it only occurs under certain conditions. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up in a laboratory. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up on stage, nor by seeing clients and giving readings unless it just happens that the conditions are right. I think trying to suggest it doesn’t exist is about as silly as saying Dowsing doesn’t work when Dowsers are used by Corporations often in conjunction with Geophysicists because it is quick, cheap and accurate.


Just because dowsing appears to be used by corporations doesn't mean it works. Corporations are not always rational, or rather some of the people in them are not rational. This is similar to the psychics helping police myth. Frequently mentioned but lacking in evidence. There are many reasons why dowsing may appear to work - sometimes it isn't hard to find water if you drill - but no evidence to prove it does. I'm not aware of a double blind trial which has produced evidence that it does work.

I know what I think when I am told that something exists, but only if you don't try to test it or examine it critically. It screams out scam to me.


I think science itself will eventually come to find a mechanism to explain how some things happen in the brain without a seeming physical explanation. I do not believe psychism is supernatural in any way – peri-natural to coin Dawkins phrase. In this category would fall ESP, thought projection, deja vue, premonitions, intuitions, gut feelings, OBE, NDE, presences, ghosts? helpful voices, and other experiences. So far, they are given psychological explanations, or magnetic field explanations. If a suggestion is put forward that science has still to discover a mechanism such as this or that possible theory, it is howled out of hearing by the derision of mainstream scientists. So we might have to wait for a generation of scientists to snuff it before any “new” theories are accepted…which is a pity for me ‘cause I won’t be around to see it.


I'm sure we will continue to learn more and more about how the brain works, however I would disagree that there is a measurable effect for some of those you list, so I don't think there is anything to uncover. Just from a very basic knowledge I've obtained from listening to podcasts and reading blogs, I thought that neurology is already pretty far forward with respect to understanding how effects like deja vu and intuition works.


How it might be done explanations are valid in many cases. The psychics making asses out of themselves finding Madeleine are the type of psychic we could do without – that includes all who use it to generate fame, status etc. Maybe they once did have a genuine psychic experience and continued on from there thinking they were “psychic”.

But how it might be done followed too literally, excludes the possibility that certain things are inexplicable at the moment because science hasn’t discovered how it actually IS done!

Well that’s just me……

It's pushing it to suggest they have possibly had psychic experiences. If you mean that they have had experiences they don't quite understand and have attributed those to supernatural explanations, then I agree that that, along with a certain level of narcissism, is a contributing factor to the path they have followed.

I don't really follow which things you think science needs to understand in the future, because there needs to be an effect to prove that something exists in the first place. And that simply isn't there for ESP, psychics, remote viewing, thought projection etc.

[Ardbeg]

Interesting that the friend who made the appointment for your thought that the consultation was to be about your work life and the one tangible fact that Emile provided was from your work life.

I can't speculate on what detective work the Emile did to discover this name simply because there are so many options. If you hire a private detective they'll find out far more information about a person than the name of the person they report to and with just as little to go on.

Hmm...interesting. Never actually thought about that. Although, as said before, I wouldnt say that its just the one tangible thing he said, but rather, the one tangible thing that wasnt tainted, i.e, that he couldnt have found out.

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that I didnt mention the name of the firm I was with or give out numbers of the firm. To start with, I was there just two weeks. During that time, I often thought to myself that if I were to be run down by a bus in London. no one would know who I was, where I came from, what I was doing there, etc. without first looking at my overseas ID!

[Ardbeg]

How it might be done? Hmmm….


Well that’s just me……

And me.....what you said makes a lot of sense to me and what I have experienced.

[Ardbeg]

It's might not be common, but it must happen sometimes. Psychics live off their reputation so if they can pull of a big hit every now and then, it will enhance that and their earning power.

I am pretty convinced that this isnt what happened here. I wasnt from the country and to pick out that information about me in 48 hours would have been next to impossible in my view (I didnt exist on the internet then - I do now ofcourse! ;D) And neither would it have been financially viable for Emille to have done that. I paid him 50 quid and this was in 2000. For me, it was a lot of money then. Even assuming that he spent all that money hiring a detective, I dont think it would have churned out much. And neither was I influential enough to generate enough business to have been worth the while.

There are many reasons why dowsing may appear to work - sometimes it isn't hard to find water if you drill - but no evidence to prove it does.

My husband is an archaeologist and a full blooded sceptic if there was one. Having said that, he has seen several instances of dowsing working at sites which no one would have thought would churn out stuff. He has tried it himself and says it seems to work...but none of this has been under controlled conditions. I am happy to speak to him to see if he or someone he knows would be open to testing.

[Cuddles]

to pick out that information about me in 48 hours would have been next to impossible in my view

You might be surprised. As an example, on the JREF forum there was a conspiracy nut boasting about how successful and rich he was and generally being obnoxious and making rather doubtful claims. A couple of posters decided to look into him and managed to find, within a few hours, his full name, age, address, who he lives with, details of where he used to work and why he left and complete information about various court cases he had been in. This was with just a probable name and a hint at where he lived, for someone who had only been on the net for a few months at most.

Even if you think you don't have a presence online, you'd be amazed at just how easy it is to find out virtually everything about you. Now imagine what someone who's job depends no knowing as much about people as possible and has been doing so for years might be able to find. If an amature can find that much in a couple of hours, how much could a professional find given a couple of days?

[Zaira]

chillzero,

"I am starting this new thread to discuss specific experiences which have convinced people about psychic abilities."

Can't say this convinced me of 'psychic' abilities but it was fun.

A bunch of us who worked together decided to book a session with a 'psychic'. The minute we entered the hall and took a seat she asked us if it was a works outing and where we worked. Then she asked our first names and said that was all she would need. One by one we stepped forward and took a seat at her table. Afterwards we ended up in the pub sharing our stories. As it turned out, it looked like she had got us all mixed up. She said something to one of us that another one said happened to them. She mentioned gifts received by the one sitting in front of her that one of the other girls said was true for her. It was a very confusing experience all round but it was fun.

[Matt]

Hmm...interesting. Never actually thought about that. Although, as said before, I wouldnt say that its just the one tangible thing he said, but rather, the one tangible thing that wasnt tainted, i.e, that he couldnt have found out.

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that I didnt mention the name of the firm I was with or give out numbers of the firm. To start with, I was there just two weeks. During that time, I often thought to myself that if I were to be run down by a bus in London. no one would know who I was, where I came from, what I was doing there, etc. without first looking at my overseas ID!

OK just a suggestion but if you had a working visa then wouldn't you have informed various authorities of your employer. Perhaps Emile had a contact with UKvisas.

[Ardbeg]

OK just a suggestion but if you had a working visa then wouldn't you have informed various authorities of your employer. Perhaps Emile had a contact with UKvisas.

LOL! No, I had a tourist visa. A two week placement without pay does not contravene the work permit requirements so I didnt need a work permit. I got my visa myself in India (stood in the queue for HOURS >:-)).

[Zaira]

I think there is definitely something going on but I struggle something awful with the term 'psychic ability'. I truly feel it is more than the supernatural and the paranormal. I think something is going on in the brain. And the theory I enjoy the most is that it's down to a bang to the head perhaps, that awakens something... perhaps a part of the brain gets 'kick started' and provides this 'extra activity' that allows some people to be able to read or tune into other people. A genuine ability that is misinterpreted and misused by people who believe they have some special gift.

[Matt]

LOL! No, I had a tourist visa. A two week placement without pay does not contravene the work permit requirements so I didnt need a work permit. I got my visa myself in India (stood in the queue for HOURS >:-)).

Fair enough, like I say it was just a suggestion. Another might be that he followed you to work.

[Zaira]

The 'ability' is not the scam. The 'psychic' uses the 'ability' to scam people. Some are unaware of doing that and some are not. There are those who believe they have a gift and want to help people, there are those who believe they have a gift and want to make some money from it, there are those who believe they have a gift that makes them special and they want fame, and then there are people like me who believe there is some thing going on here, and that it can and will be explained once someone comes up with a way to give someone experiencing this 'extra brain activity' a really good brain scan with a neurologist standing by to interpret the results.

[Ardbeg]

Y
Even if you think you don't have a presence online, you'd be amazed at just how easy it is to find out virtually everything about you. Now imagine what someone who's job depends no knowing as much about people as possible and has been doing so for years might be able to find. If an amature can find that much in a couple of hours, how much could a professional find given a couple of days?

Very unlikey that he would have found out anything about me back in 2000. He asked me for my first name (specifically said, dont give me your last name). Anyway, I had married 15 months before and had changed my name. I wasnt from the country. On balance of probability, it seems very unlikely to me.

I know how easy it is to find people online. I've found friends from years ago, after they've changed their names, married about 4 times, changd countries, etc. But this is now. Not 7 years ago when things were quite different. And certainly not in a country like India, where the internet was a big deal in 2000. Only the really famous existed on the net at the time. Today, one has all sorts of info - from electoral lists to univ registrations and the like. This was not the case in 2000.

[Ardbeg]

I think there is definitely something going on but I struggle something awful with the term 'psychic ability'. I truly feel it is more than the supernatural and the paranormal. I think something is going on in the brain. And the theory I enjoy the most is that it's down to a bang to the head perhaps, that awakens something... perhaps a part of the brain gets 'kick started' and provides this 'extra activity' that allows some people to be able to read or tune into other people. A genuine ability that is misinterpreted and misused by people who believe they have some special gift.

I agree. I dont like the term psychic ability either. And neither do I think its magic or a special gift. But there's something going on that we dont understand yet. In time, I am sure we will and then we'll laugh at ourselves for our stupidity in thinking it was 'psychic ability'.

Sort of like when the microscope was invented and we were shown a whole new world of organisms that were invisible to the naked eye. Organisms that could sometimes cause horrible diseases. And we said...OOOHHH, and I thought it was the Gods being angry! How silly of me!!

[Ardbeg]

Ok boys and girls (and persons of unknown gender), here's another incident. Please feel free to tear apart.

This was when I was at University a few years ago. Out of curiosity, I decided to attend a talk on reincarnation. I had a friend who was going through a difficult time with her boyfriend and was on the verge of breaking up with him. I invited her along. At the end of the talk there were refreshments and I went to get us both some drinks. The speaker was standing close by. He walked up to me and said, "your friend....someone close to her died sometime back. This person is here now and is saying "I am with you always and love you dearly." I said, "ok?" (I should have said - tell her yourself but didnt have the presence of mind to do so).

Then he said, "She's going through a difficult time - she's very confused about a decision she needs to take, but she will soon come out of it and it will be alright".

The whole thing took less than a minute. I didnt want to either confirm or deny those pieces of information. Also, I didnt know if it was polite for me to comment on the details of her private life to a third person. So I said that I would pass on the message. He said thank you and went back to the group he was talking to.

This friend had lost her sister about a year before this incident and although she had told me, we didnt discuss it and when the speaker said what he did, for some reason it didnt strike me immediately. Its only after I conveyed this to the friend, she said...that's my sister and I remembered.

I can assure you that neither of us had ever met this person before, nor come across him in any way, shape or form. Both of us attended because we thought we'd be amused by number of famous people who would have been reincarnated as Fred Blogg! There was absolutely no way this guy could have known anything about this friend because we didnt know anyone else in the room apart from each other. I certainly didnt tell him.

And he didnt do it in a "look how accurate I am" sort of way. It was literally that he slid upto me as I was getting drinks and said these things and walked away without giving me a chance to react.

While he was saying this, the friend was stood at the back of the room (she was stood on some steps). She was making polite conversation with some people who had been sitting in the same row as us. She wasnt within earshot.

Neither did we (the friend and I) discuss this matter during our time in the room. I cant remember for sure but I think we may have been a little late.

Like I said, neither of us knew him or had met him. He didnt know our names and the friend was a last minute thing. (She was moping around and I invited her to come with me if she wanted). Anyway, it wasnt a special invitation event or anything...just a talk organised by one of the student societies.

One thing I find interesting is that he didnt reveal the gender of the person who was trying to communicate with my friend. Which is one of the reasons it didnt strike me immediately.

ok, any ideas?

[tolman]

... had a friend who was going through a difficult time with her boyfriend and was on the verge of breaking up with him. I invited her along.

He [the speaker] walked up to me and said, "your friend....someone close to her died sometime back. This person is here now and is saying "I am with you always and love you dearly." I said, "ok?" (I should have said - tell her yourself but didnt have the presence of mind to do so).

Then he said, "She's going through a difficult time - she's very confused about a decision she needs to take, but she will soon come out of it and it will be alright".

...

This friend had lost her sister about a year before this incident and although she had told me, we didnt discuss it and when the speaker said what he did, for some reason it didnt strike me immediately. Its only after I conveyed this to the friend, she said...that's my sister One thing I find interesting is that he didnt reveal the gender of the person who was trying to communicate with my friend. Which is one of the reasons it didnt strike me immediately.

ok, any ideas?
Someone close dying 'sometime back' could hit with a lot of people.
If not a sister or a parent, people have 4 grandparents, and university students, especially if often coming from better-off families, might well come from families with a fair gap between generations. I'd wonder what the chances were of someone at university having one or more recently-deceased grandparents.

Depending on the type of lecture, people going to a lecture on reincarnation may be more likely than the average person to be thinking about a death of someone close to them.

People at university are often making decisions of one sort or another

Did the speaker say "That friend over there", or was there enough flexibility for what he said to have applied to anyone else?

However genuine the guy seemed, if you're going to admit the possibility of even unconscious hot-reading, is it possible anyone else would have known about your friend's loss who might possibly have passed on the information.

How big was the lecture?
Is it possible that your friend might have visibly reacted to anything the lecturer said, and he could have picked up on that, consciously or not?
Did he ask for any audience participation, or was it a straight one-way talk?

[Matt]

ok, any ideas?

There are three people in the my house right now. What that person said could definitely apply to two of us. Probably the third. It's not a very specific statement.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Two of my grandparents died while I was at university.

[Cuddles]

Someone close dying 'sometime back' could hit with a lot of people.
If not a sister or a parent, people have 4 grandparents, and university students, especially if often coming from better-off families, might well come from families with a fair gap between generations. I'd wonder what the chances were of someone at university having one or more recently-deceased grandparents.

And why just limit it to family? I know many people who have lost a close friend while in school or university, surely that would count as well. Also, what counts as "sometime back"? This doesn't even have to be recent, "sometime" could be fitted to any time in the past. What are the chances that a person doesn't have at least one person who could be described as close who died at some point in the past?

[tolman]

Sure, there are other possible people, I'd just reckon family would be the bulk source for deceased and close people for a ~20 year old.

If someone was actually deliberately doing a cold reading, hitting close non-family deceased for a young adult might well be looked on as a bonus.

What are the chances that a person doesn't have at least one person who could be described as close who died at some point in the past?A decreasing number these days, possibly. I'd guess it would depend principally on family size and dynamics, and how people interpret 'close'.
If people lived away from their grandparents, they may not be emotionally close at all, but might still see 'close' as being a genealogical proximity thing, rather than an emotional one.

[Ardbeg]

Someone close dying 'sometime back' could hit with a lot of people.

You are right. Apart from that, he didnt mention the gender of the deceased to me. He didnt say 'sister' or 'father' or 'boyfriend'.

Depending on the type of lecture, people going to a lecture on reincarnation may be more likely than the average person to be thinking about a death of someone close to them.

True again. Although I hadnt had anyone close to me die around then so it wouldnt be applicable to me. It also seems a bit strange to me that he came upto me and said that about the friend! Something doesnt sit right there.

Did the speaker say "That friend over there", or was there enough flexibility for what he said to have applied to anyone else?

He was quite specific actually. He pointed to her specifically. She was stood at the end of a row of seats on some steps and was talking to some people who had been sat around us. They were still sitting but she had her back turned to me (and the speaker) and was talking to them. Incidentally, if anyone is familiar with UCL, this was in the Darwin Rooms (I think that's what they're called).

However genuine the guy seemed, if you're going to admit the possibility of even unconscious hot-reading, is it possible anyone else would have known about your friend's loss who might possibly have passed on the information.

No one in that room knew either of us and we didnt know anyone else in the room apart from each other. We didnt know the speaker and he didnt know us. We were mature students and as such, not really part of the undergrad crowd. There were ofcourse other people who may have known of the friend's loss but certainly, no one in that room knew. The friend claimed not to have ever met the speaker before and there is no reason in my mind to doubt that claim. She also claimed not to know anyone else and again, there is no reason in my mind to question that claim. She was invited at the last minute by me.

How big was the lecture? Is it possible that your friend might have visibly reacted to anything the lecturer said, and he could have picked up on that, consciously or not?

20-30 people, not very large but we were sat towards the back. It was interactive and he walked us through a task of allegedly going back to past lives. Neither the friend nor I said anything to him during the course of the talk (except sorry we're late, I think). The most interactive group was sat almost right in front and was comprised of about 4-5 people. They seemed to be really active and particpated in everything enthusiastically. Comparatively, Natasha and I were very quiet (bit strange for me).




Now the reason I personally find this incident strange -

1. Both the pieces of info he passed on were relevant to Natasha.

2. Neither of those pieces of information were relevant to me.

3. Yet he spoke to me about her rather than speaking to her directly. This is very strange because he would have been more effective speaking to her and if his guess was right she would have been all ears and probably paid to hear more. Nevertheless, I thought it a bit rude of him to tell me stuff about her.

4. He didnt make a big deal out of it - literally slid in and out and didnt pursue a further conversation - admittedly, a good marketing ploy if one is inclined to look at it that way...but there are two ways of looking at this.

5. I forgot to mention earlier that he said stuff about other people - a little cautiously. One girl was told that she had a problem with sleep and specifically a recurring dream. He seemed reluctant to discuss it in public and she was too so they decided to talk later. I dont know the authenticity of that information or whether he had access to it somehow (since she was part of the active group mentioned above).

6. Strangely, he seemed to cover the "difficult decision" bit as well as "death of someone close" bit. Both of those cover a substantial number of problems most people face. Maybe her face gave away her miserable state and the rest of good guesswork. But either way, doesnt add up in my head because the best bet in the situation would have been to tell her directly and use her to convince other people in the room.

[tolman]

That's good. Now the hot-reading possibility seems lessened, that does narrow options a bit.

Now, the small size of the audience interests me. If your friend was going through a difficult patch and you arrived as a pair, and interacted as a pair, it could be you looked like the supportive friend taking someone to the talk, so someone unconsciously hitting on that and talking to you about your friend is at least plausible. I guess we can't really know what kind of signals might have been given off.

Unless you think the guy psychically saw you had a friend, he must have seen in some other way, and it's hard to know what else he could have seen. Even getting the drinks could give subtle signals, depending how you did it.

[Matt]

Well I'm not psychic, I can't read his mind regarding why he chose to make the approach in the way that he did. If he was a concious fraud then perhaps he wanted you to think it was strange. After all the topic of the talk is strange.

If he was deluded then perhaps he feared a threat to his validation. If he'd come up with his guess straight out then he risked her saying "no you're talking rubbish" By using an indirect approach the hits are more likley to report back to hiom that he was correct (wide eyed and in search of more pearls of spiritual guidence such as it'll be "alright") than the misses are to confront him with his failure. In such a circumstance he might choose to believe that the non-responses were actually positives. I'm not saying that he deliberately deluded himself in this way, simply that someone who happened to fall into this habit would be more likley to preserve their self delusion and so a group of people who do have this delusion (that they are psychic) will be more likely than average to exhibit such strange traits.

Where he chose to speak to a different person in private that may have been for different reasons: a dodge, a lure or a fishing expedition. There's no reason to expect him to be consistent.

[tolman]

Though he did get two hits, many people might have been impressed even if he'd only got one.

Suggesting two things might lessen the chances of not getting anything wrong, but it can also lessen the chances of not getting anything right.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

5. I forgot to mention earlier that he said stuff about other people - a little cautiously. One girl was told that she had a problem with sleep and specifically a recurring dream. He seemed reluctant to discuss it in public and she was too so they decided to talk later. I dont know the authenticity of that information or whether he had access to it somehow (since she was part of the active group mentioned above).

This is a key point, you don't know overall how many (vague) predictions he made over the course of the night, and how many were totally meaningless, how many could be fitted to the person, and how many were luckily very accurate.

If it was possible to perform some sort of statistical analysis of all his conversations and the perceived accuracy of them, then you would get a picture of his hit rate. Without that, you are forced to make a judgement based on a single incident unfortunately.

[Zaira]

Was this an audience thing? Were the drinks got in an interval or at the end of the session? Or was the whole thing a social gathering and he simply wandered among the crowd?

For future reference be prepared to ask one or two specific questions. Ask for the name or a description of the person. It's too general to talk about someone having lost someone. We have all lost someone.

[Ardbeg]

Was this an audience thing? Were the drinks got in an interval or at the end of the session? Or was the whole thing a social gathering and he simply wandered among the crowd?
For future reference be prepared to ask one or two specific questions. Ask for the name or a description of the person. It's too general to talk about someone having lost someone. We have all lost someone.


Refreshments were at the end of the talk. A few people were hanging around - some near the food and some talking to the speaker. I ignored the speaker and went for the food / drinks (!)



I dont know at what point he broke away from the crowd and came upto me. There was no one else (immediately) next to me at the time.

Thanks. Although at the time, I didnt know if it was rude of me to discuss her problems with a third party, however well meaning that person may have been. And anyway, I didnt have the presence of mind to be honest (one of my weaknesses around food - my mind goes hazy and all I can see is the foooood)! :tongue:

[Ardbeg]

This is a key point, you don't know overall how many (vague) predictions he made over the course of the night, and how many were totally meaningless, how many could be fitted to the person, and how many were luckily very accurate.

If it was possible to perform some sort of statistical analysis of all his conversations and the perceived accuracy of them, then you would get a picture of his hit rate. Without that, you are forced to make a judgement based on a single incident unfortunately.

I am not commenting on his accuracy or otherwise. I am saying he freaked me out because at the time he mentioned the dead person it had totally slipped my mind that Natasha had lost a sister less than a year before.

I hadnt paid any attention to his comments to other people precisely for this reason. Even if he came across as accurate, he could have picked up this information in some other way.

I do find it strange that the two pieces of information he chose to convey were both relevant to the friend. May not be significant statistically. But then, statistically, they would have been equally relevant to me too I would imagine. So why single out the friend and not me? Especially since he chose, for whatever reason, to speak to me.

Again, I dont know if this is relevant or not, but I didnt tell Natasha about it till we left the place. We were stood outside the building while she had a smoke and that's when I told her. She wasnt suprised but overwhelmed. her reaction surprised me (because I thought she came from a strong Christian background and would have been averse to this sort of thing). But she surprised me by saying that just before she had left her home country, she had had a message from an acquaintence of her's that her sister was trying to get through to her. The sister wanted her to know that she was very happy about her plans to go abroad and wanted to say that she loved her very much and would always be with her.

I dont know the authenticity of that information. Its just hearsay so I havent focussed upon it too much.