Psychic mentality

[chillzero]

I was interested in a question Zaira raised in another thread:


Sarah's prattle, tedious as it is, can't possibly provide any valuable insight into the mentality of all so-called psychics. She is one person. Are you telling me that when you figure her out you will never feel the need to examine the claims of the next 'psychic' that comes on the forum?
My interest comes from my background as a tarot reader and healer (now reformed). Zaira also asked about further reading on the matter of psychic psychology, and when I get time at home I think I have a few links that might be of interest.

For my own viewpoint, having been a part of that new-age psychic comunity in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, the psychology and approach is not unique to Sarah. There is often an inability to keep thoughts and information logically arranged. Thoughts are disorganised and planning is impulsive - altered regularly to suit changing circumstances. There's often a need to feel special, that people should view them as mysterious and gifted, and be in awe of their 'abilities'. This is what sits behind statements such as "I have given vital information to the police in case X, but I can't say anything about it just yet". If it was true, you wouldn't say anything at all - intrigue is a dramatic device.

I am happy to answer any questions about the transition from psychic healer to non-believer (I am not easily offended, so feel free to ask). I can't say "to skeptic", because even as a part of that community I always questioned what was happening, and how things 'worked', so I consider that I was a skeptic for all my life. I would like this thread to discuss aspects of that transition, or other aspects of the mindset of people who believe they have psychic abilities in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.

I can add that although I know other people who made the same transition as I did, these are aquaintances I have made on the internet since my belief was eroded. I had no companion through my journey and lost several friends. As far as I am aware, the people I left behind in that community are still involved in it, and they range from possibly mistaken as I was, through people with mental health issues, to those that clearly understand that these abilities are not real, but have made careers from ensuring they project a particular authority.

[random thoughts]

Hi Chillzero

I'm curious and you may have answered this on another posting so apologies in advance if you did. Was there a particular incident that "opened your eyes". I had always considered myself very open to psychics, psychic ability, etc. but there was a period of time when I consulted a number of different psychics and the numerous different readings i received finally convinced me that there was nothing out there other than con artists only too happy to part me from my money.

[chillzero]

I have posted bits and pieces of my story before, but never really pulled it all together for anything more than reference within some articles. I might do so in the future for a longer article or maybe a book. Not sure - I am currently being interviewed on this exact subject for someone else's book, so I shall see how that develops first. (I only mention this to explain that I may keep some of my responses less detailed in order not to compromise this situation.)

There wasn't really one specific event that 'opened my eyes' - as I say I was always quite inquisitive and open to information. However, there was one specific event that led to me refusing to do any further reading for people. I did a reading for a friend, and partway through the reading realised that she was disagreeing with what I said, and also that the reason she disagreed was down to a little piece of previously discussed personal information I had actually forgotten about until that moment.

Now, when reading cards, if I seemed to be headed in the wrong direction, I would always re-study the cards, and try to work out what sign I had missed, or what I could be misinterpreting. Very probably I would consider anything I already knew about the person also, but this was not done as a deliberate part of reviewing the cards.

This time I changed what I told her to relate better to that piece of information. I don't remember if I conciously thought it through as doing such at the time, but within a few hours I realised that I had done so, and felt terrible about myself. I actually had a little argument in my head where I confronted myself about being honest over what I had done, and not just dismissing it. I had been learning a little about cold reading, and how to test psychic abilities, and quickly understood that this was the technique I had employed - albeit 'subconciously'.

That was quite a shock, and I felt unable to carry on doing readings on such a dishonest basis. At first I didn't trust myself to use only my psychic skills and not employ this newly discovered method, however it wasn't too long before I understood that the method had been there all along, and there were no psychic abilities at all - just a very efficient intuition.

[random thoughts]

Thanks for that. I'm always curious to see what triggers other people. I dated a man for three years who said he was "psychic". At the beginning of the relationship I was in a place where I needed to believe in something. It was only after three years of the scales slowly falling away from my eyes that I realised that not one bit of information i'd been given was "new" or had been gained psychically. Since then thanks to this site and many others I've learned I was just a victim of cold and hot reading.
Good luck with your story.

[Ardbeg]

I have posted bits and pieces of my story before, but never really pulled it all together for anything more than reference within some articles. I might do so in the future for a longer article or maybe a book. Not sure - I am currently being interviewed on this exact subject for someone else's book, so I shall see how that develops first. (I only mention this to explain that I may keep some of my responses less detailed in order not to compromise this situation.)

There wasn't really one specific event that 'opened my eyes' - as I say I was always quite inquisitive and open to information. However, there was one specific event that led to me refusing to do any further reading for people. I did a reading for a friend, and partway through the reading realised that she was disagreeing with what I said, and also that the reason she disagreed was down to a little piece of previously discussed personal information I had actually forgotten about until that moment.

Now, when reading cards, if I seemed to be headed in the wrong direction, I would always re-study the cards, and try to work out what sign I had missed, or what I could be misinterpreting. Very probably I would consider anything I already knew about the person also, but this was not done as a deliberate part of reviewing the cards.

This time I changed what I told her to relate better to that piece of information. I don't remember if I conciously thought it through as doing such at the time, but within a few hours I realised that I had done so, and felt terrible about myself. I actually had a little argument in my head where I confronted myself about being honest over what I had done, and not just dismissing it. I had been learning a little about cold reading, and how to test psychic abilities, and quickly understood that this was the technique I had employed - albeit 'subconciously'.

That was quite a shock, and I felt unable to carry on doing readings on such a dishonest basis. At first I didn't trust myself to use only my psychic skills and not employ this newly discovered method, however it wasn't too long before I understood that the method had been there all along, and there were no psychic abilities at all - just a very efficient intuition.

Hi. Thanks for that. You've been really honest and that's always the most difficult thing!

I understand what you've said about an efficient intuition. And I must admit that I am at present, firmly sat on the fence. The reason is that I want proof of some sort to believe in the existence of psychic ability but havent been able to find any concrete evidence yet. Then why dont I just disbelieve? Because there are certain people I've met who have said stuff stuff that they couldnt have just got from anywhere.

I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.

This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.

Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).

Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!

[chillzero]

Hi. Thanks for that. You've been really honest and that's always the most difficult thing!

Knowing what I do about the process of 'reading', and the transition from belief to none, I feel it is important to be honest, and help people understand each side of the issue. That way people can learn firstly how to discuss and disagree on matters without resorting to insults about dishonesty straight off the line.

I understand what you've said about an efficient intuition. And I must admit that I am at present, firmly sat on the fence. The reason is that I want proof of some sort to believe in the existence of psychic ability but havent been able to find any concrete evidence yet. Then why dont I just disbelieve? Because there are certain people I've met who have said stuff stuff that they couldnt have just got from anywhere.

I find it interesting that you want to believe. That's possibly an important part of why evidence has not persuaded you entirely, as yet. I see you have given a specific event for discussion, so I don't need to ask my next question.

I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?

This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.

So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.

Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).

Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!

I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

[John Jackson]

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

Well Chilly's already alluded to this but did you leave a contact number when you made the call and was it your (then) current work number?

This is one trick they use. They'll take a contact number just in case they need to change the appointment etc. (unforseen circumstances and all that!!) but they will ring the number regardless.

If it's a home number they can pretend to be a marketing company or something and ask you a few questions or if you're out may even get a few details from your answering machine.

As for work, they may call and get the company name etc., and if it's not too far away, even go and do a fact-finding mission on you.

So, asking for a contact number (which seems fair enough) is a known method they use to discover background information on clients. Can you rule that out? ???

[John Jackson]

As far as I am aware, the people I left behind in that community are still involved in it, and they range from possibly mistaken as I was, through people with mental health issues, to those that clearly understand that these abilities are not real, but have made careers from ensuring they project a particular authority.

I don't want to shift the focus of this thread - and I hope people do ask questions of someone who's seen things from both sides - but I'm quite interested in a sort of 'taxonomy of beliefs'.

So, I'm just wondering if you could shed a little more light on certain 'categories' of the type of person who claims to have psychic ability.

I think it's useful as issues like this often get dichotomised so as people are either psychic or non-psychic and psychic is considered as simply one thing (they're all the same).

People will have different levels of belief, differing belief in their own ability and, of course, different motivations for doing what they do.

[chillzero]

I don't want to shift the focus of this thread - and I hope people do ask questions of someone who's seen things from both sides - but I'm quite interested in a sort of 'taxonomy of beliefs'.

So, I'm just wondering if you could shed a little more light on certain 'categories' of the type of person who claims to have psychic ability.

I think it's useful as issues like this often get dichotomised so as people are either psychic or non-psychic and psychic is considered as simply one thing (they're all the same).

People will have different levels of belief, differing belief in their own ability and, of course, different motivations for doing what they do.

Good question, John.

I think what I shall do is take more time to draw up a post that outlines some of the people I knew, without naming names. I'll describe my view of what they believed, and how they acted on it, and also how they reacted when challenged.

[Ardbeg]

Knowing what I do about the process of 'reading', and the transition from belief to none, I feel it is important to be honest, and help people understand each side of the issue. That way people can learn firstly how to discuss and disagree on matters without resorting to insults about dishonesty straight off the line.

I find it interesting that you want to believe. That's possibly an important part of why evidence has not persuaded you entirely, as yet. I see you have given a specific event for discussion, so I don't need to ask my next question.

At the time, I was willing to give anything a go. And I think I knew somewhere deep down that regardless of what people (psychic or otherwise) said to me, I'd have to find my own way.

Apart from that, I've always been a bit 'suspicious'. I dont know if that's the right word - the attitude was - let me give this a go because I have access to him and I dont want to regret it. Maybe he will help...its worth a shot. Or maybe wont and I'll have lost some money at worst. At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes?? >:D) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like. This reading has led me to understand about cold reading and hot reading and various other tricks psychic use and that's how I discount 99% of what has been said....if I can find some explanation of it (regardless of probablity) my mind will refuse to believe it (because I'm a bit silly that way - or maybe just sceptical...I dont know). But to be believed, its has to be beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?

Ok, this is a long story. I was practising as a lawyer in India and my boss arranged a 2 week placement at a firm in London while I was over on a holiday. I wasnt taking calls at work (didnt know what the work etiquette in this country was and anyway, I just one person in the whole of the UK then and she was out of the country). The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm (and anyway, it wasnt a well known firm) and certainly didnt know the name of Rustam Dubash. Rustam was just the contact point. He did litigation and although I was in the same department, I wasnt working with him directly, although its fair to say that he was 'in-charge' of me and my main point of contact for those 2 weeks.

I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible! :-[ Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).


So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

I've been to see many many psychics, astrologers and various loopy people in my lifetime. Partly because my superstitious family insists on dragging me along (and its easier to go rather than take a stand and say I dont care because of a weird cultural thing - will explain further if you want). Over the years, I've concluded that 99.9% of them are frauds and make stuff up as they go along. I havent found ONE PERSON who has made an accurate prediction about the future. But I have come across a couple of people who have said specific stuff they couldnt have known - and this is really specific - like the name and my relationship to Rustam Dubash.

I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself - Forget it, lets see how things turn out. I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking. :-[ But he HAD said Rustam Dubash which was SOO specific. So I took the easy way out and said, whatever is to be will be.

Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.

I dont mind in the least. I am happy to be put up for scrutiny as I am as keen on the truth as anyone else. I have, to my bestest possible ability, tried to look for reasons how Emile could have come up with a specific name. I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India. Also, he gave me both the first name and the surname. Unusual since we all know how psychics would work in this situation (hmmm, I see a male presence...his name begins with R....he's very important in your life...maybe someone you work with? Or a boyfriend / husband?)...Enile didnt do any of this. It wasnt even in context as we were discussing my personal situation and I had not problems at work and Rustam Dubash was really out of the blue.

I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

Maybe we can get to the bottom of it or maybe we wont be able to. But it would be interesting to see what explanations come up because at the end of the day, like you said, this incident exists only in my memory and if there's an explanation, the only one who can come up with it will be me. I am happy to be scrutnised. I am happy to admit that I may not have considered some angle or some way in which he could have got this information. The reason I can answer most of your questions is because I have asked them myself at some stage and discarded them since they havent provided a relevant explanation for me. I have gone through this a zillion times...I've tried my best not to embellish it with time or everytime its come up. I've tried to stick to what I remember. Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.

Sorry for the long post.

[Ardbeg]

Am I going to get booted out because of that extra long post???:-\

[Jocky]

Am I going to get booted out because of that extra long post???:-\

Absolutely - out you go! :cheesy:

Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing O0

[ I'm following this discussion with interest, BTW ;) ]

[Ardbeg]

[quote=Jocky;15709]

Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing O0


Like this??? I'm terrible at editing so I didnt know which portions of Chillzero's post to delete. And I didnt want to be rude. But thanks...O0 Appreciate not being given ze beeg shoe.

[Jocky]

quote=Jocky;15709

Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing O0


Like this??? I'm terrible at editing so I didnt know which portions of Chillzero's post to delete. And I didnt want to be rude. But thanks...O0 Appreciate not being given ze beeg shoe.

Like that O0 , except that you deleted the close quote tag /QUOTE - you probably inadvertantly overtyped it when you added your comment - that's why you don't get a grey box and you get the quote=Jocky tag as text.

[Ardbeg]

you probably inadvertantly overtyped it when you added your comment - that's why you don't get a grey box and you get the quote=Jocky tag as text.

Its not my day! I'm a little more competent than this usually!! Honest! :-[:-[:-[:-[

[chillzero]

I have moved the examination of specific reading details here:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=15726

[chillzero]

OK - types of people I knew. (Names changed)

Gerald.
This was my main influence, and the only person I knew in both Ulster and Scotland. He was interested in Native American Indian culture, and learned about spirit guides, guided meditations and so on. He was incredibly charismatic, and despite how well I knew him, I am unable to determine how much he believed what he told people, and how much he appreciated the income. People liked him quickly, and opened up to him easily, and he was very perceptive about how to direct a conversation where he wanted. He was one of those people who needs to make no effort to draw friends. People just want to be around him.

I do know that he had a major crisis of faith, and felt his guides and so on abandoned him near the end of the time I knew him. He told me then that he was moving away from that faith because he had been mistaken. However, he is still pushing this mysterious side of his personality, and portraying himself as a bit of a mystic, or shaman.

I feel that there is deception on his part now, even if there was not initially. He recognised that there was money to be made from people who were afraid that they had evil influences around them. He undertook house 'cleansing' with native american rituals, and on at least one occasion I was surprised at his attitude to how much he charged. He was always willing to reduce fees for healing for people who obviously needed the help, and just as obviously couldn't afford it. However, on the other hand, for example, a pair of elderly, but clearly wealthy ladies wanted help removing a dark force from their home, and he happily doubled the usual fee when he spoke to them. I checked with him about this, and he laughed, saying that he was in more need of it than they were, and it would not be begrudged him.

[chillzero]

Susan.
This woman made me uncomfortable from day one, and yet she was supposedly one of my closest friends in this community. She ran a new age shop selling candles, tarot cards, and did readings using crystals, cards and so on. She had perfected the look with hippy tie dye long fringed skirts and so on.

Susan played the part to the last, dictating on all the things we should and shouldn't do to reduce the harm done to Mother Earth. She spoke of the signs she saw that helped her determine every decision she made, from shapes in the clouds to songs on the radio at particular important moments. She was aggressively anti-science, and standard medicines, and encouraged a diabetic friend to stop taking insulin. Thankfully this friend didn't, but I don't know who else she may have influenced.

On the surface, she comes across as committed to this natural approach to life, and a carer for the world. However, there were many inconsistencies that I noticed, and conversations with her to clarify the basis for certain beliefs she pushed were incredibly difficult. Initially they would be fraught with confusion, and then as you tried to clarify matters she became aggressive and dismissive of your knowledge on the matter.

She would encourage recycling, and more attention to the environment and natural preparation of food, but used a car and a microwave, and laughed about this as she shrugged it off. She spoke about loving the earth, and all fellow humans, yet would dismiss certain people (usually who opposed her) as dark entities, and would 'curse' them. I became one of these dark entities after a time, despite her initial enthusiasm to have me as a kind of apprentice, and she made it her business to oust me from that community.

She was always looking for ways to make money from people who didn't understand the new-age stuff. She seemed to feel that if they didn't open their hearts and minds to the possibilities abundant in nature and the cosmos, then they deserved to be exploited, to assist us in our 'quest'. This covered selling craft items that weren't quite what she promised the buyer (magic charms that would do amazing things, for example), to encouraging people she read for to follow advice that would bring them back to her for further readings.

Years and years ago this woman may have had honest intent in her heart, but by the time I knew her, she was deceptive and aggressive in maintaining her business and promoting herself as a true psychic. She would speak for hours to customers about the evils of medicine, etc, but would tolerate no investigation into the truth of the claims she made. If it was good enough for the likes of Deepak Chopra, she was happy with it.

[chillzero]

Nigel.
Nigel ran a shop also, and was a wonderful man with a huge heart. He gave healing, and also advised people against medicine, etc - much as Susan had done. However, he spoke softly, and warmly, and never tried to impose his personality or beliefs onto anyone else. He had confidence that the truth would find them eventually. He was open to discussing the facts about things, but his knowledge about spirituality and the things he acepted as truth was much deeper and expansive than Susan's. He didn't just read the books - he absorbed all the information in them, and could hold up his side of the argument admirably. My knowledge of science and medicine was never good enough to tackle the things he claimed.

It was Nigel I turned to as my faith began to change, and he was kind with me. He talked through my experiences, and provided alternative explanations that sometimes brought me closer back to the community, but in the end didn't sit right with me.

I fully believe that Nigel was 100% honest in his beliefs and how he dealt with people. I know that he took care with the quality of his goods, and personally witnessed him undertake various meditiations and blessing ceremonies over items he sold. He was a kind and caring man who was sad to see me move away from the community.

However, he also "enjoyed his herbs". He got help for the shop so he could concentrate on a campaign for legalising marijuana. His main efforts for this campaign seem to have been isolating himself with a lot of it for meditating on the matter. I saw a drop in his ability to concentrate and converse in the last few times I met with him.

[John Jackson]

Thanks for those descriptions Chilly. O0

I've seen a few things I was expecting and one thing I wasn't but which does fit in with one of the ideas I have for looking into psychics in a different way to considering whether they're simply psychic or not.

I'll be away for a couple of days and probably won't get on a computer but if you have any more keep 'em coming :cheesy: even though I'm not responding.

[chillzero]

Thanks for that. I'm always curious to see what triggers other people. I dated a man for three years who said he was "psychic". At the beginning of the relationship I was in a place where I needed to believe in something. It was only after three years of the scales slowly falling away from my eyes that I realised that not one bit of information i'd been given was "new" or had been gained psychically. Since then thanks to this site and many others I've learned I was just a victim of cold and hot reading.
Good luck with your story.

Do you think he knew he was hot and cold reading? Do you think he honestly believed he had a gift and was deluding himself?

How did he present himself as having this ability?

If he was deluded, do you think he will ever come to realise the truth?

[chillzero]

I think it's useful as issues like this often get dichotomised so as people are either psychic or non-psychic and psychic is considered as simply one thing (they're all the same).

Indeed. I always try to avoid generalisations anyway, but 'psychic' people are just as diverse as non-psychics. The days of the RoseyLee gypsy stereotype are gone. Some of that is enhanced by the slick TV psychics we see so regularly, but then again, they are maybe just reflecting a trend.

People will have different levels of belief, differing belief in their own ability and, of course, different motivations for doing what they do.

Absolutely. I think that people who believe they have a gift, but whose primary concern is to help or heal others are often more open to the truth than those who like the feeling of being special, or the power that 'knowing' stuff others can't see gives them.

[Zaira]

You can examine me too, if you like. I have had many ‘strange’ experiences on and off all my life. And while looking for answers I ran the gauntlet of the Occult and religion and the paranormal. Even thought at one point I might simply be crazy. Kept a lot of it to myself when I was younger for just that reason.

But older, and having found the courage to talk to others about it, as well as reading a couple or three book stores on the subject - truth is, I don‘t care anymore what it is or what causes it.

I do not believe it to be a ‘psychic’ ability as in supernatural. Need to be careful here as that doesn’t leave many options. And one of them is that I might just be crazy after all.

[bindeweede]

I was interested in a question Zaira raised in another thread:

[/i]
[/indent]My interest comes from my background as a tarot reader and healer (now reformed). Zaira also asked about further reading on the matter of psychic psychology, and when I get time at home I think I have a few links that might be of interest.

For my own viewpoint, having been a part of that new-age psychic comunity in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, the psychology and approach is not unique to Sarah. There is often an inability to keep thoughts and information logically arranged. Thoughts are disorganised and planning is impulsive - altered regularly to suit changing circumstances. There's often a need to feel special, that people should view them as mysterious and gifted, and be in awe of their 'abilities'. This is what sits behind statements such as "I have given vital information to the police in case X, but I can't say anything about it just yet". If it was true, you wouldn't say anything at all - intrigue is a dramatic device.

I am happy to answer any questions about the transition from psychic healer to non-believer (I am not easily offended, so feel free to ask). I can't say "to skeptic", because even as a part of that community I always questioned what was happening, and how things 'worked', so I consider that I was a skeptic for all my life. I would like this thread to discuss aspects of that transition, or other aspects of the mindset of people who believe they have psychic abilities in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.

I can add that although I know other people who made the same transition as I did, these are aquaintances I have made on the internet since my belief was eroded. I had no companion through my journey and lost several friends. As far as I am aware, the people I left behind in that community are still involved in it, and they range from possibly mistaken as I was, through people with mental health issues, to those that clearly understand that these abilities are not real, but have made careers from ensuring they project a particular authority.

I have read some of your posts with interest. This might not be the best post to reply to, but..... can you explain to me the nature of the "spirit world" that psychics, mediums and others refer to. Who goes there? Do they retain any of their original identity? Is it the same as "paradise", or "heaven"? What happens if a soul doesn't like it? Are there entry qualifications?

I want to try to understand what some people believe.

[chillzero]

I have read some of your posts with interest. This might not be the best post to reply to, but..... can you explain to me the nature of the "spirit world" that psychics, mediums and others refer to. Who goes there? Do they retain any of their original identity? Is it the same as "paradise", or "heaven"? What happens if a soul doesn't like it? Are there entry qualifications?

I want to try to understand what some people believe.

There are as many different interpretations of 'Spirit', and th e'spirit world' as there are religions, unfortunately. It was another thing that set my skeptic nerves on edge as I was trying to learn all I could from this community. There is very little cohesion.

My preferred perception was that all living things have spirit and soul, and that everyone in the world was connected - that spirit was like the atmosphere surrounding the earth. It was everywhere, and we could all tap in to this surrounding environment for wisdom or inspiration as required. This scenario means that when we die, we all return to this same mix of knowledge and wait until we choose to be reborn - and not necessarily as humans. We can communicate with those who can hear us and carry all the knowledge from each life into the mix, and onward through the next life. I read a book once that suggested that this amazing mix of knowledge was responsible for people like Da Vinci and Einstein - people so far ahead of their times that they could only have acheived that through a connection, and an inspiration given to them from this mix.

Sylvia Browne has a complex system set up so that her church can use the idea of God and angels, set alongside the ability to speak to the dead. It still doesn't entirely make logical sense, because she defines a heaven scenario that people go to, where they all live as 30 year olds, and determine what they shall do in their next life scenario. It is in this heaven from which they are able to speak to the living. There's a heirarchy of how far you get between lives, until you reach enlightenment, and you may choose to be a spirit guide to someone like her on your journey as well.

(Slight derail for a moment. On a Montel Williams show, Sylvia spoke to a woman whose husband was killed, and she had used his frozen sperm to become pregnant. She was upset because she dreamt of him every night, and he seemed distressed and angry. Sylvia told her that she would have a healthy baby boy. She told her that he was frustrated because the dead actually think of us as the dead ones - they are in eternal life and we are the ones in transition. In a follow-up show, the woman had given birth to a girl that was born early and died in a few months. She intended to get pregnant again as she has 2 more embryos, and was still dreaming of her husband - but now he was happier. Sylvia told her that he was happy because she had given him a beautiful daughter to look after, and he was changing diapers and so on up in heaven. She seems to have forgotten her advice that we are all 30 in the afterlife.::) Presumably she will claim that the predicted healthy baby boy will be one of the other 2 embryos.)

Another scenario sets angels alongside people in the world, almost like a different species. They are here to guide and support us, to give strength in times of grief, and to whisper inspiration to us when we need wisdom. They are behind the natural remedy knowledge of the wise women of older generations, and the inspiration seen from people like Da Vinci.. etc.. They either pass us messages from our dead loved ones, or others believe that they guide our loved ones to heaven, where the soul stays forever, but can still communicate if they wish.

There are many more, but as you can see, the belief are quite diffuse and often incompatible.

[bindeweede]

Chillzero

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You said
"My preferred perception was that all living things have spirit and soul," so can I be impertinent and ask you what your preferred perception is now?

I don't believe in an after-life or the spirit world, but if I'm wrong, I don't want to end up, shoulder-to shoulder, so to speak, with mass-murderers, suicide-bombers, rapists, child-molesters and the criminally insane. And I don't really want to spend the rest of my life worrying about it.:-[

[chillzero]

Chillzero

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You said
"My preferred perception was that all living things have spirit and soul," so can I be impertinent and ask you what your preferred perception is now?

I don't believe in an after-life or the spirit world, but if I'm wrong, I don't want to end up, shoulder-to shoulder, so to speak, with mass-murderers, suicide-bombers, rapists, child-molesters and the criminally insane. And I don't really want to spend the rest of my life worrying about it.:-[

not impertinent at all, :)

Nowadays I no longer believe in an afterlife or that spiritual connection. I haven't decided on any philosophy other than living life to the best I can.

I am open to the option of being wrong about this, but as you said - I am not going to waste time worrying about it.

My life has never been particularly easy, but I cope better without the superstition and clutter.

[bindeweede]

Chillzero.

Quote

I haven't decided on any philosophy other than living life to the best I can.

That really does seem to me the most sensible way for everyone.

Edit. I haven't read all of your posts, but I get the impression your life has been quite a journey.

[psychicsarah]

259 Psychic mentality

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was interested in a question Zaira raised in another thread:

Quote:
Sarah's prattle, tedious as it is, can't possibly provide any valuable insight into the mentality of all so-called psychics. She is one person. Are you telling me that when you figure her out you will never feel the need to examine the claims of the next 'psychic' that comes on the forum?



QUOTE Chill Zero


My interest comes from my background as a tarot reader and healer (now reformed). Zaira also asked about further reading on the matter of psychic psychology, and when I get time at home I think I have a few links that might be of interest.

For my own viewpoint, having been a part of that new-age psychic comunity in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, the psychology and approach is not unique to Sarah. There is often an inability to keep thoughts and information logically arranged. Thoughts are disorganised and planning is impulsive - altered regularly to suit changing circumstances. There's often a need to feel special, that people should view them as mysterious and gifted, and be in awe of their 'abilities'. This is what sits behind statements such as "I have given vital information to the police in case X, but I can't say anything about it just yet". If it was true, you wouldn't say anything at all - intrigue is a dramatic device.

----------------------------------------------------

Excuse me????

I am a logical, practical Virgo with absolutely NO need to feel special
I am simply using my God given gift to help people

What I am saying IS true and I have been to the police....and they DID take what I had to say seriously

How dare you make such assumptions?

You are absolutely WRONG.....

(Am I making any money out of this? ...NO...it is COSTING me time and money....)

[vbloke]

Excuse me????

I am a logical, practical Virgo with absolutely NO need to feel special
I am simply using my God given gift to help people

What I am saying IS true and I have been to the police....and they DID take what I had to say seriously

How dare you make such assumptions?

You are absolutely WRONG.....

(Am I making any money out of this? ...NO...it is COSTING me time and money....)Actually, you're more than likely a Leo, but then, as an astrologer, you'd know that, right?

You have given no proof that you have any gift, god given or not. Especially as eminent officials in the church have decried the things you do.

As for your police claims, as we have said, we have put in FOI requests, so when the replies come in, we'll know what you told the police and how it was dealt with.

[psychicsarah]

Good cos you wil get a positive result from the police...

(though I actually don't undertand the law that allows you access to such confidential info??? Couldn't someone guilty of a crime pose as someone innocent or interested and get vital info on the progression of a case...it doesn't make any sense to me that the police would give you such info ? )

I may yet give you the name of the detective...(who was shocked at what I was predicting...but it IS all now happening...and they DO have the record of what I said)...

I guess you might get an admission that I had been into them...but not the details of the reports etc....unless I requested it and even then possibly not???

[vbloke]

Good cos you wil get a positive result from the police...

(though I actually don't undertand the law that allows you access to such confidential info??? Couldn't someone guilty of a crime pose as someone innocent or interested and get vital info on the progression of a case...it doesn't make any sense to me that the police would give you such info ? )

I may yet give you the name of the detective...(who was shocked at what I was predicting...but it IS all now happening...and they DO have the record of what I said)...

I guess you might get an admission that I had been into them...but not the details of the reports etc....unless I requested it and even then possibly not???The FOI Act creates a general right of access, on request, to information held by public authorities.

Any person can request information under the act; this includes legal entities such as companies.

This means that, unless the information is deemed "not in the public interest", they are legally obliged to provide the information.

[chillzero]

Now, just hang on a minute. >:-)



I am a logical, practical Virgo with absolutely NO need to feel special
I am simply using my God given gift to help people

What I am saying IS true and I have been to the police....and they DID take what I had to say seriously

How dare you make such assumptions?

You are absolutely WRONG.....

(Am I making any money out of this? ...NO...it is COSTING me time and money....)

That was not a personal attack. It was an interesting question which I thought would lead to an interesting discussion.

Sara - THIS thread is not about you.

[Zaira]

Sarah, I don't want to nit-pick but like chillzero, I too was into astrology and the rest for a while. And it's true what they say about it being like riding a bike, you never forget. I do not see Virgo as being logical and practical - if they are it's only in their own eyes. Capricorn is the most logical and practical sign of the zodiac with Taurus coming a close second. Libra appears to be but they spend so much time weighing up all the options that they often miss the boat. Pisces and Gemini are probably the most illogical and practical signs next to Aquarius. Leo and Virgo are performers who think the world is their stage. Scorpio? We simply do ourselves a huge favour by keeping out of their way, they feel so passionate about everything that it can become quite overwhelming. Is that everybody? Did I miss anyone out? Aaah Cancer, the crab that walks side ways, the people pleaser who skirts around awkward topics and events. Think that covers everyone.

No offence. Just reminiscing. :smiley:

[Zaira]

chillzero,

Hi! Here I am with some questions. ;)

To begin with, may I ask what changed your mind about everything?

[chillzero]

chillzero,

Hi! Here I am with some questions. ;)

To begin with, may I ask what changed your mind about everything?

Well, there's some info here:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=15688&postcount=3

It as never one thing that changed my mind - it was a long process, quite painful at times.

I had been uneasy about how the new-age community had treated me and responded to my questions for some time, and then was challenged to prove my own psychic abilities over at the James Randi forum, where I could win $1Million for the trouble. Seemed easy to me at first.

I joined the forum and learned how to test what I was doing to rule out various things, like cold reading, etc, and soon realised I was misinformed about many things.

[Zaira]

I read the whole thread again and I understand now.
I'd love to chat about it some more if you feel like it.
It couldn't have been easy walking away from that, it must have felt like you were starting over again from scratch.

[chillzero]

Well, the bonus in chipping away at those beliefs bit by bit, means that I was gaining new information bit by bit. So, because there was not one moment of 'revalation', I was able to transition quite well.

[Zaira]

chillzero,

"Well, the bonus in chipping away at those beliefs bit by bit, means that I was gaining new information bit by bit. So, because there was not one moment of 'revelation', I was able to transition quite well."

Now that is what I needed to know because I think part of my struggle was, "What would I fill the space with?" I have been into Zen and meditation and I seriously thought I was letting go of the 'Occult' stuff and doing quite well, then I got involved in a couple of forums that seriously juggled my brain bringing up all these old memories and experiences. I was curious and I was bored so I checked them out and practically relived the whole experience.

The curiosity grew and I followed more and more links. That's how I came to be here, a place I thought, I could ask questions and get no BS. Then on here I came across a link to that psychic forum and took part for a while then came back here feeling, in all honesty, really f***** up. I lost the plot, I know I did.

I threw away all my hard work over the last few years because I was on my own with a computer and I was bored. Someone on here (you know who you are) rattled my cage and forced me to take a look at what I had thrown away just for a bit of attention on a forum.

Anyway, I've been re-reading some posts that I found helpful, and that last post of yours answered that question, "What would I fill the space with?" These last few weeks everything suffered, I have hardly done any proper meditation, I've been stuck on the same two or three forum for the last month. I deleted them today and brought up one of my favourite Buddha sites for a read and a distraction, and to get a calm perspective.

I'm still on the fence not going one way or the other, think I'll just sit here and let the crap roll off me for a while. And, so long as I don't upset anyone else, I'll stick around for a bit.

[chillzero]

Zaira, I am glad to read that. I find meditation a wonderful tool for focussing on matters.

I look forward to more discussion with you.

Something to remember about the internet, that might help a little - we lose expression, tone of voice, and other signals that can't be replaced by smilies. It's easy to misunderstand a post that may not be as aggressive as first read. If something irritates me, I try to remind myself to stop, and reread it with a different tone of voice in my head - something calmer, and see if it is still a problem after that.

[Zaira]

Thanks. I’ll keep that in mind.

[havovee@yahoo.com]

Dear friend,
I am Havovee and I read about your experience with the pychic Emile in London you had a decade ago on a collegue you worked with Rustam Dubash. Well Rustam was my chold hood friend from Mumbai. Iknew him three decades back and like you who is sitting onthe fence I do not know why somethings just done get buried with time. I can still recollect his peronality as being a spiritually devout soul and at a very young age he use to consult seance for his personal queries time and again. What I probably fell that Emile was giving you a lead on the same.

Rustam is a deligent worker and would appreciate your work as you are from his country and as you said struggling in various spokes f life. He could have been of grat help for you.

God bless

Havovee


Hi. Thanks for that. You've been really honest and that's always the most difficult thing!

I understand what you've said about an efficient intuition. And I must admit that I am at present, firmly sat on the fence. The reason is that I want proof of some sort to believe in the existence of psychic ability but havent been able to find any concrete evidence yet. Then why dont I just disbelieve? Because there are certain people I've met who have said stuff stuff that they couldnt have just got from anywhere.

I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.

This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.

Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).

Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!