Campaign for Secular State Schooling

[MoralAtheist]

Should state funded schools in the UK be entirely secular, IE the removal of praying, grace, preaching etc?

If you agree with this there's a petition here http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Secular-Schools/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Secular-Schools/) and a Facebook group called Campaign for Secular State Schooling http://mwillett.org/Debate/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

If you do or if you don't agree, let's hear the arguments

MA

[Matt]

Should state funded schools in the UK be entirely secular, IE the removal of praying, grace, preaching etc?

If you agree with this there's a petition here http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Secular-Schools/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Secular-Schools/) and a Facebook group called Campaign for Secular State Schooling http://mwillett.org/Debate/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

If you do or if you don't agree, let's hear the arguments

MA

Not another bleeding petition in this subject. Oh well now I've signed this one too. I might as well pray to the flying spaghetti monster for all the good it's likely to do.

[Jocky]

You might be better off seeking for state funding for Pastafarian schools ... :fsm:

I'll join the Facebook group, just to show solidarity.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Anyone else in the National Secular Society?

[bindeweede]

Anyone else in the National Secular Society?
No. BHA member.

Years ago, I became Head of Year at my school. That involved taking Morning Assemblies. I made it clear to the Head, an active Christian (I might have used the word "rampant"), that I would not, under any circumstances, lead an "act of collective worship", as dictated by the Conservative Government, at that time. I tried to present moral, thoughtful Assemblies.

In my opinion, religious worship should be kept to churches, synagogues, temples and mosques.

And while I have a chance to edit this, any teaching of religious beliefs should include the opt-out options - atheism, humanism etc.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

No. BHA member.

Years ago, I became Head of Year at my school. That involved taking Morning Assemblies. I made it clear to the Head, an active Christian (I might have used the word "rampant"), that I would not, under any circumstances, lead an "act of collective worship", as dictated by the Conservative Government, at that time. I tried to present moral, thoughtful Assemblies.

In my opinion, religious worship should be kept to churches, synagogues, temples and mosques.

And while I have a chance to edit this, any teaching of religious beliefs should include the opt-out options - atheism, humanism etc.

We all need more people like you, sir!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Way back when I was a prefect at school 8), you had to do readings at assembly. I remember not reading out a couple of lines at the end of the text which was always the religious morality bit. It would have rendered it meaningless, but no one noticed or mentioned it. That proved to me that absolutely no one was listening or interested in religious morality tales at morning assembly!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

No. BHA member.

Years ago, I became Head of Year at my school. That involved taking Morning Assemblies. I made it clear to the Head, an active Christian (I might have used the word "rampant"), that I would not, under any circumstances, lead an "act of collective worship", as dictated by the Conservative Government, at that time. I tried to present moral, thoughtful Assemblies.

In my opinion, religious worship should be kept to churches, synagogues, temples and mosques.

And while I have a chance to edit this, any teaching of religious beliefs should include the opt-out options - atheism, humanism etc.

FIGHT !!! >:D

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=NSS&word2=BHA

You lose... O0

[Zaira]

In my humble opinion religion is or should be a personal thing and either practiced at home like meditation or with groups of like-minded people in churches, chapels and temples. I don’t sign petitions, but I agree that religion doesn’t belong in schools today.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

In my humble opinion religion is or should be a personal thing and either practiced at home like meditation or with groups of like-minded people in churches, chapels and temples. I don’t sign petitions, but I agree that religion doesn’t belong in schools today.

Thats really what secularists aim for - if people want to be religious, they are entitled to believe in what they want. However there isn't a place for religion in public establishments and there shouldn't be any religious privilege, and there should be a clear separation between state and church.

The NSS do a very good weekly email every Friday which I think you can sign up for even if you aren't a member. Some of the stuff they expose is frightening - the amount of privilege that religion gets in this country.

[Zaira]

"Some of the stuff they expose is frightening - the amount of privilege that religion gets in this country."

Think I just might go check that out. Not into religion and especially not into some getting special privileges over others.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I can't access the site at work as paradoxically it is barred as it is in the category 'Religion' >:-) , but if you find the site for National Secular Society, and then look for Newsline I think, that lets you access it online. And I think you can also register to get it emailed each week.

The stuff that bugs me the most, is how much taxpayers money goes to the church, the amount spent on chaplins in the NHS, the bishops in the House of Lords, the BA cruxifix and the schoolgirl chastity ring, faith schools, in fact quite a lot of things .....

In my mind, the NSS is very good at highlighting the real issue in these sorts of cases without prejudice.

[Cuddles]

the amount spent on chaplins in the NHS

I'm all for a secular country, but chaplains in the NHS are a little different. They are not exclusively from one religion and no matter what religion any chaplain happens to be, they are there for everyone. More importantly, people of all religions actually meet with them and appreciate them being there.

I see chaplains as similar to old coutry vicars. Although they belong to a certain religion, everyone is free to talk to them for advice, whether spiritual, moral, personal or whatever, and people from all religions do so. One of the big complaints people have against the NHS is that doctors don't have time to just talk with patients. That is what the chaplain does, and I think it would be a shame to get rid of them just because of religious issues in other areas.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I (http://www.secularism.org.uk/atlasthospitalchaplainsintheline.html) think you do have a point, but personally I would rather they paid for a couple of extra nurses or other medical resources as opposed to a chaplain. If the church(es) think it is worthwhile, I would rather they paid to maintain chaplains. I think the salaries quoted below are rather high for the service they provide.

I think a valid secular viewpoint is to let the service continue - but not from public funds. They are representives of the church, and that is who should pay for them.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/atlasthospitalchaplainsintheline.html

[quote] At Last – Hospital Chaplains in the Line for the Chop


Hospital chaplains – who are paid out of scarce NHS resources – are being threatened with cuts in hours, according the trades union Amicus.
The union, which represented The Professional College of Health Care Chaplains believes that out-of-hours chaplaincy services are under threat as new job evaluation and pay schemes left several local health trusts with budgetary deficits. The rules are being changed so that chaplains will be paid when they are on call, but Amicus says some trusts are trying to circumvent this by keeping them off duty.
Carol English, Amicus’ officer for health sector clergy, said the situation was “serious” and some NHS trusts had identified chaplains as a soft target for cuts.
As NHS employees, chaplains have always been paid. An average chaplain’s salary ranges from £26,000 to £35,000. When on call, chaplains are paid 9% of their salary and if called out are paid time and a half.
Keith Porteous Wood of the National Secular Society said: “It is about time this waste of NHS resources was looked at. The number of people wanting the services of chaplains in hospital must be tiny, but they gobble up millions of pounds every year. Chaplains – if they are paid at all, and we don’t see why they should be – should be paid on an hourly basis and only sent for when patients specifically request them. While hospitals struggle to find the money for essential equipment like scanners and when wards are closed because of cost-cutting, there can be no excuse to continue pouring money into the pocket of the church in this way.”
</H1>

[Jocky]

I (http://www.secularism.org.uk/atlasthospitalchaplainsintheline.html) think you do have a point, but personally I would rather they paid for a couple of extra nurses or other medical resources as opposed to a chaplain. If the church(es) think it is worthwhile, I would rather they paid to maintain chaplains. I think the salaries quoted below are rather high for the service they provide.

I think a valid secular viewpoint is to let the service continue - but not from public funds. They are representives of the church, and that is who should pay for them.

I disagree. My father was a hospital chaplain for many years, and I know a bit about the work they do.

Basically, their role is to help all patients and their relatives (of any religion, or of none at all) come to terms with the personal challenges which may arise out of medical treatment. Obviously, these challenges often involve life-changing decisions, and/or dealing with death.

I think that this type of support is a necessary part of what the NHS does. It is not appropriate simply to treat the condition while ignoring the impact on the person. Nurses are too busy, and not appropriately trained, to deliver this kind of support.

One could reasonably argue that this type of work could be done just as effectively by secular counsellors, but I don't think it would be good simply to reallocate the money to medical care and ignore the patient's need for personal support completely.

Because chaplaincy support is offered to all patients regardless of their religion, I don't think you can consider the chaplain to be operating in his/her capacity as a "representative of the church" while carrying out this work. In my opinion, they are representatives of the NHS carrying out a necessary aspect of NHS care - and consequently it is appropriate for them to be paid by the NHS.

[Jocky]

The stuff that bugs me the most, is how much taxpayers money goes to the church, the amount spent on chaplins in the NHS, the bishops in the House of Lords, the BA cruxifix and the schoolgirl chastity ring, faith schools, in fact quite a lot of things

BTW, FarSide - I certainly agree that in general state money should not be spent of religious matters. However, I think it's important to keep one's eye on the ball. Faith schools cost the taxpayer far, far more than all of the other things you list here put together. I concur that this is a bad thing and that it should end - but IMO that argument does not necessarily apply by extension to absolutely everything which is in any way related to religion.

[Cuddles]

Because chaplaincy support is offered to all patients regardless of their religion, I don't think you can consider the chaplain to be operating in his/her capacity as a "representative of the church" while carrying out this work. In my opinion, they are representatives of the NHS carrying out a necessary aspect of NHS care - and consequently it is appropriate for them to be paid by the NHS.

Since you obviously know more about this than me, do you know if chaplains are necessarily Christian? Since the work they do caters to people of all religions, or none, there doesn't seem any reason they would all be christian, and it would therefore seem that allowing them to continue but having them paid for by one church would actually make the role more religious since the variety would be gone.

[Jocky]

do you know if chaplains are necessarily Christian? Since the work they do caters to people of all religions, or none, there doesn't seem any reason they would all be christian, and it would therefore seem that allowing them to continue but having them paid for by one church would actually make the role more religious since the variety would be gone.

AFAIK there is no bar on Hospital Trusts appointing chaplains from any denomination or religion (or indeed appointing secular counsellors). Chaplains are drawn from several different different christian denominations, and I know that there are some muslim chaplains too. A quick google revealed this example (http://www.royalmarsden.nhs.uk/RMH/info/aboutus/equalitydiversity/faithbeliefs.htm).

I suppose that trusts would seek to reflect the faiths found in the communities they serve when appointing chaplains. I will ask my Dad for more info on this.

I'd agree that there is no reason for chaplains all to come from any one particular faith group - IMO the important point is the quality of the service they provide, not the faith they personally hold. Of course, religiously-minded patients will often prefer to talk to a chaplain of their own stripe, whereas a person of no particular religious faith might just need a bit of peace and quiet, and a sympathetic listening ear.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

There was something about a pagan chaplain being laid off that caused a bit of a fuss recently I think. I should Google to check, but might do later.

I understand what you are saying about the role played by the chaplain, and no doubt they do their best and do fulfill a role for many. Personally, if I was going through a hard time in hospital, the last person I would want to see would be anyone religious, but I know a large proportion of the population feel very differently from that.

To me though, I still have issues with the NHS spending money on non-core services. One of the arguments for the benefits of complementary medicine in the NHS, is that the patient gets a much more personal and pleasant experience, in that they have someone who is probably spending longer with them in a consultation, and are likely to be more 'customer' focused that a rushed-off-her-feet nurse. So the patient feels better, and placebo is more likely. But I'm wouldn't like to see the NHS wasting any more money on this area because I don't think the benefits are there.

I'm not going to try to equate this with the role of the chaplain, but I do see some parallels.

Although you are right they perform a valuable role for some people, I'd prefer that they weren't being paid for from NHS funds.

There is a personal element to this for me too - I've had to pay for something which I would have received free in other trust areas.

[brianp]

Should state funded schools in the UK be entirely secular, IE the removal of praying, grace, preaching etc?

I do agree, but I must say that some state schools are already virtually secular. I taught for 15 years in a state comprehensive in Newcastle and in all that time I didn't encounter any praying, grace or preaching, not even in assemblies.

I also support the campaigns against faith schools, but I must say that there have been and are some excellent faith schools. Prior to my time teaching in Newcastle, I taught maths for six years at an RC secondary modern in Sunderland. We had prayers at the beginning and end of every session - I was a Methodist at the time, so I didn't mind that - and we had grace at meals and a weekly service at a nearby church. But it was a great school with an excellent head, excellent discipline, excellent relationships with parents, and good exam results - better than many comprehensives today. The parish priest had a very strong influence on the school, the children and the parents, but it was definitely a positive and helpful influence. A good friend of mine, an atheist even then, taught science there and was given complete freedom to teach the subject as he thought fit. We both enjoyed our time at that school and had the school not closed - a victim of socialist "comprehensive" dogma - I suspect we'd both have stayed there until we retired.

Yes I would like to see faith schools abolished because they indocrinate the young, they can be a divisive influence between communities and, in some cases, are postively anti-science. But we should also remember that some of the best schools are faith schools, so we should perhaps see what lessons can be learnt from the way they operate with a view to improving state schools.

[Jocky]

There was something about a pagan chaplain being laid off that caused a bit of a fuss recently

Ooh, that's interesting. Let me know if you find it ...


if I was going through a hard time in hospital, the last person I would want to see would be anyone religious

Up to you, of course. If it was me, I think I'd settle for talking to whoever had the time and the inclination to talk to me, regardless of their affiliation.


I still have issues with the NHS spending money on non-core services. One of the arguments for the benefits of complementary medicine [is that] the patient feels better, and placebo is more likely. But I'm wouldn't like to see the NHS wasting any more money on this area because I don't think the benefits are there.

In general, I agree. One shouldn't have to pay for placebos.


I'm not going to try to equate this with the role of the chaplain, but I do see some parallels ... Although you are right they perform a valuable role for some people, I'd prefer that they weren't being paid for from NHS funds

As you say, counselling services (in practice often delivered by chaplaincies) cannot be directly equated to a placebo. They exist for other reasons - providing advice and support which is of considerable value to people forced to make difficult decisions, to bereaved families and so on. If this service was not provided, there could be significant consequences for clinical staff, who could be forced to spend more time dealing with these issues themselves.

IMO you can't deliver medical care without making some allowance for the human factor - not because you expect to get a placebo from it, but because humans behave unpredictably under stress. Where you have lots of people under stress at the same place and time as you do in a hospital, it is wise to have something in place to cope with the fallout from that.

One could argue about whether chaplaincies are the best way of providing this service - but I don't think there is a good argument for getting rid of it altogether. As I said above, I do not see their basic function as religious, and that's why I can see a benefit to the NHS from funding the service in one way or another.


There is a personal element to this for me too - I've had to pay for something which I would have received free in other trust areas.

The so-called "postcode lottery" is a political issue for NHS funding as a whole. I sympathise with your misfortune, but you can't blame that on one small part of the overall funding picture about which you happen to have some reservations.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Well, pagans seem welcome in Tayside, although it isn't specific as to the funding.

http://paganwiccan.about.com/b/a/000021.htm

Here's the bit I remember seeing about the pagain chaplain being made redundant - although it was prison, not hospital, but same difference I guess!

http://www.secularism.org.uk/paganchaplainisbannedfromwavingh.html



Britain’s first pagan “chaplain” has been relieved of his duties at Portsmouth’s Kingston Prison after he was suspended by the Pagan Federation for speaking to the press about his activities.
In a meeting with the prison’s governor, John Robinson, Mr Edwards was told that until he was reinstated by the Federation, he could not continue working at the prison. Mr Edwards, who is allowed to take the title reverend because of his role as a chaplain, is confident that once an investigation has been carried out by his religious chiefs he will be reinstated and the wand-waving and spell-casting (white magic only) will resume.


Regarding the postcode lottery - in true Daily Mail style I actually get angrier about the amount of money wasted through benefit fraud, the fact you can earn more on benefits than working, PFI, stuff like that...so in reality the chaplin issue is insignificant when you look at the wider picture of wastage

[Cuddles]

AFAIK there is no bar on Hospital Trusts appointing chaplains from any denomination or religion (or indeed appointing secular counsellors). Chaplains are drawn from several different different christian denominations, and I know that there are some muslim chaplains too. A quick google revealed this example (http://www.royalmarsden.nhs.uk/RMH/info/aboutus/equalitydiversity/faithbeliefs.htm).

Thanks, I thought this might be the case since it is true for many universities, but I wasn't sure if the NHS was the same.


I do agree, but I must say that some state schools are already virtually secular. I taught for 15 years in a state comprehensive in Newcastle and in all that time I didn't encounter any praying, grace or preaching, not even in assemblies.

I found the same was true when I was in school. We were told that the law says that you must have an act of religious worship every morning, but there was never anything even in the weekly assemblies. The only relgion I ever encountered was in RE lessons, and there was far more time spent on other religions than on Christianity.

[Zaira]

"The only religion I ever encountered was in RE lessons, and there was far more time spent on other religions than on Christianity." - Cuddles

We called it RI - Religious Instruction. I loved it, but that was because I loved art and I got to draw Joseph in his coat of many colours. lol

God was a swear word in my house while I was growing up. However, always the curious little bugger, I sneaked out to Sunday school with a friend of mine and loved every minuet of it.

One day there was a May Day procession from the chapel, all the little girls in their white dresses and their veils on their way to take holy communion. I ran home and put a net curtain on my head and went back to join the procession. A neighbour told my mum who promptly came and dragged me out of there and took me home. All the time I was yelling, "But I want to be a nun!"
My mum yelled back, "You can't be a nun, your a protestant!"
"I don't want to be a protestant! I want to be a nun!"
I didn't even know what a protestant was. I was eight years old.
I hate to tell you how long that story followed me.
"Zaira, remember when you wanted to be a nun?"

[bindeweede]

I do agree, but I must say that some state schools are already virtually secular. I taught for 15 years in a state comprehensive in Newcastle and in all that time I didn't encounter any praying, grace or preaching, not even in assemblies.

I also support the campaigns against faith schools, but I must say that there have been and are some excellent faith schools. Prior to my time teaching in Newcastle, I taught maths for six years at an RC secondary modern in Sunderland. We had prayers at the beginning and end of every session - I was a Methodist at the time, so I didn't mind that - and we had grace at meals and a weekly service at a nearby church. But it was a great school with an excellent head, excellent discipline, excellent relationships with parents, and good exam results - better than many comprehensives today. The parish priest had a very strong influence on the school, the children and the parents, but it was definitely a positive and helpful influence. A good friend of mine, an atheist even then, taught science there and was given complete freedom to teach the subject as he thought fit. We both enjoyed our time at that school and had the school not closed - a victim of socialist "comprehensive" dogma - I suspect we'd both have stayed there until we retired.

Yes I would like to see faith schools abolished because they indocrinate the young, they can be a divisive influence between communities and, in some cases, are postively anti-science. But we should also remember that some of the best schools are faith schools, so we should perhaps see what lessons can be learnt from the way they operate with a view to improving state schools.

I hope you don't mind me chipping in. My best friend has taught at an RC school in Washington for over 20 years. He is an "Independent Methodist" and has had no problems in that school. Until recently, it has been over-subscribed, with non-Catholics choosing it as it had a good reputation for academic results, pastoral care, and parental support.

I do think state schools have something to learn from faith schools. And like independent education and private health care, in a free society, there should be a choice, even though there will be a lot of people who will not be able to afford it. Whether what you get is any better is a different issue.

[brianp]

I hope you don't mind me chipping in. My best friend has taught at an RC school in Washington for over 20 years. He is an "Independent Methodist" and has had no problems in that school.

I certainly had no problems as a methodist in an RC school.


Until recently, it has been over-subscribed, with non-Catholics choosing it as it had a good reputation for academic results, pastoral care, and parental support.One of the best achieving schools in Gateshead Borough at the present time is Thomas More RC School and it too is in great demand by non-catholics. Unfortunately another high-achieving, high-demand school in the Borough is the infamous Emmanuel College!

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,664515,00.html

[bindeweede]

Thats really what secularists aim for - if people want to be religious, they are entitled to believe in what they want. However there isn't a place for religion in public establishments and there shouldn't be any religious privilege, and there should be a clear separation between state and church.

The NSS do a very good weekly email every Friday which I think you can sign up for even if you aren't a member. Some of the stuff they expose is frightening - the amount of privilege that religion gets in this country.

Just been doing a bit of looking back. I signed up to the NSS weekly email a few weeks ago. Very good. I'm thinking about joining the NSS, even though currrently a member of the BHA. I went to a local BHA meeting in the area last January. I'm really sorry to say it scared me off. OK, prejudices coming out here, but - grey pony-tails, sandals, aged hippies. Humanism/secularism needs an up-to-date image to appeal to the young and intelligent. Don't know if the NSS can do that better than the BHA, but I seem to be leaning in that direction. A spokesperson for BHA suggested that the NSS is rather more "confrontational" than the BHA. Well, I'm not sure that is such a bad idea.

FWIW.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Just been doing a bit of looking back. I signed up to the NSS weekly email a few weeks ago. Very good. I'm thinking about joining the NSS, even though currrently a member of the BHA. I went to a local BHA meeting in the area last January. I'm really sorry to say it scared me off. OK, prejudices coming out here, but - grey pony-tails, sandals, aged hippies. Humanism/secularism needs an up-to-date image to appeal to the young and intelligent. Don't know if the NSS can do that better than the BHA, but I seem to be leaning in that direction. A spokesperson for BHA suggested that the NSS is rather more "confrontational" than the BHA. Well, I'm not sure that is such a bad idea.

FWIW.

I think that is possibly what steered me towards NSS rather than BHA as well. I hate prejudice and stereotypes, but there wouldn't be stereotypes if they weren't true at least sometimes 8)

I would probably agree that the NSS is more confrontational in that it's remit is to oppose privilege for religion. On the whole I find the behaviour of the NSS to be acceptable. On a few occasions they do seem to get a bee in their bonnet about stuff I maybe find a bit petty (like trying to fix Easter holidays to a set time every year...), and some of the members may come from extreme ends of the spectrum, however overall I feel it has noble aims. You don't even have to be an atheist to agree with it's constituion.

I do find the weekly email an interesting read, particularly the links to other articles from the previous week on the web.