Electrosensitivity "All in the mind"

[vbloke]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm


Mobile phone masts are not responsible for the symptoms of ill health some blame them for, a major UK study says.

Dozens of people who believed the masts trigger symptoms such as anxiety, nausea and tiredness could not detect if signals were on or off in trials.
But when they thought the signal was on they reported more distress, suggesting the problem has a psychological basis.

[Araneus]

Well, duh.

Of course, the bleevers always have their excuse:


But Mast Sanity, a lobby group which believes masts are responsible for ill health said the results of the survey were skewed by the fact that 12 of the potentially most sensitive people had dropped out.

"History has shown that many now commonly accepted physical conditions were initially dismissed as psychological," said spokeswoman Yasmin Skelt.

"Isn't it time that the government woke up to the reality of electrosensitivity instead of attempting to persuade sufferers that it is all in their minds?"
In other words -- "damn the evidence, reality is how we say it is!".

[Dr B]

Great link......O0

[Cuddles]

Mast Sanity

I nominate this for most ironic name of the year.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Saw this on the news at lunchtime. They had a mad woman out on the street who had a copper mesh net thing over her head. The reporter wwas trying not to laugh as he interviewed her.

Complete madness - recommend trying to catch it on the news tonight, I think it was BBC.

[666]

... copper mesh net thing ...Saw that. The woman looked like a bee-keeper.

[Araneus]

Reading some of the comments on other news sites it appears that there is a certain amount of confusion regarding what this study shows.

Most importantly, it does not prove anything about whether mobile phone masts are dangerous, i.e. have a negative impact on human health in the short or long terms. This is not a result that could be proven in a double-blind test, which only measures the ability to detect something, not whether it affects the body in other ways.

What it does demonstrate is that a large number of people (possibly all of them) who claim to be suffering symptoms from phone masts are not actually being affected by the EM radiation itself, but by the psychological belief that the radiation is harmful.

[Admin]

I agree Araneus.

It shows that those who think their health is being severely affected electromagnetic waves are most likely somatizers as they can't actually tell whether EM waves are present.

It doesn't say anything about the long term effects of EM waves (although there's no good reason to believe they're harmful).

So, those running around with aluminium foil beanies on their heads are mistaken.

This doesn't mean they don't suffer symptoms, just that EM waves don't cause them (!)

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Here is a link to the Mast Sanity site

http://www.mastsanity.org/

which links in turn to the study itself.

Can someone help me understand what point Mast Sanity is making ( or thinks it is making) when it complains about the withdrawal of the volunteers who fell ill? I am, frankly, puzzled.

[Admin]

Well, it's clearly not a professionally produced website. Actually, it looks like a blog.

I've only read the first few sentences and already there are crass spelling mistakes and an abundance of logical fallacies.

I've downloaded the full study and will have a look tomorrow and compare what's in the study to what this, obviously impartial ;), group/person has to say about it.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

You're a glutton for punishment, John. :-) Many thanks.

[Dr B]

As a side point - even magentic fields that can have biological effects - only exert those effects under very specific circumstances.

You can take a magnetic field known to elicit neuronal responses in the brain (not necessarily detectable by the person though) and 'play' it for short durations or alter its temporal parameters a bit and hey-presto - no neuronal effect.

Effects that do exist in more scientific literature (for magnetic fields not phone masts) - appear to occur under very specific conditions.

I would be interested to see if anyone has measured the response biases of these electrosensitive people across a range of tasks to see how generic the effect of suggestion is - or whether it is specific to certain beliefs. :-\

[Araneus]

Can someone help me understand what point Mast Sanity is making ( or thinks it is making) when it complains about the withdrawal of the volunteers who fell ill? I am, frankly, puzzled.

Certainly, their point is "We know that radio waves from masts cause symptoms, and any scientific study that claims otherwise must be critically flawed. Obviously in this case the flaw was that 12 people dropped out of the study, and we Just Know that these 12 people would have detected the radio waves if they had remained in the experiment."

It's just the standard woo-woo technique of looking for something -- anything -- which would allow them to continue with their beliefs (which in this case is totally unnecessary anyway, since the study did not test 100% of the population and it is perfectly possible that everybody in the world apart from this sample is electrosensitive).

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Certainly, their point is "We know that radio waves from masts cause symptoms, and any scientific study that claims otherwise must be critically flawed. Obviously in this case the flaw was that 12 people dropped out of the study, and we Just Know that these 12 people would have detected the radio waves if they had remained in the experiment."


That was my impression too. But I thought I'd better ask, just in case someone had seen something to the point amid the ranting. Getting far too charitable in my dotage...

[dalriada]

http://standby.lbl.gov/pictures/AllOvertheHouse.gif

[bindeweede]

I have a copy of a poster from the Neasden Electricity company, I think it was, from the 1930's.......

"Don't kill your wife with work. Let electricity do it for you."

I'd have posted it, but it's on the other comp, and I'm not sure how to upload pics anyway.

[dalriada]

That's a good one!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/24755011_cb29acc1ad.jpg?v=0

[bindeweede]

That's a good one!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/24755011_cb29acc1ad.jpg?v=0

Well done! You found it. Willesden, not Neasden. Sorry for the error:-*.

[dalriada]

I love the way this whole "electrosensitivity" thing is now being used to sell face cream. So now sitting at this computer is not only ruining my eyes and my posture- it's also making me wrinkly! :-\

"Researchers from Clarins (cosmetics company) say that electromagnetic waves, are attacking our faces 24/7, sending free radicals on the rampage, slowing skin renewal and generally weakening our skin cells’ defences against premature ageing."

And it's not just Clarins. Glossy magazine junkie that I am, I've noticed quite a few other companies in the cosmetics industry are also promoting this idea. Psuedoscience and the "Psychic" industry do seem to have a habit of targeting the same demographic of women with insecurities (which is most of us) and it's fascinating the way the language used by both industries is so similar. Wooly, soothing, linguistic prozac. Buy our products & services and we'll save you...

" Psychics from Klarins (imaginary spiritual counsellors) say that electromagnetic waves, are attacking our auras 24/7, sending free radicals on the rampage, slowing energy renewal and generally weakening our auric defences against premature ageing."

Anyone want to buy a crystal for that? Might be cheaper than the face cream...!

[Admin]

I love the way this whole "electrosensitivity" thing is now being used to sell face cream.

It's rather ironic that, say, 100+ years ago things like electricity, magnetism, and even radioactive materials, were being sold as universal panaceas for all sorts of medical problems.

I guess times change, humans don't.

In fact it would be an interesting exercise to look at some of those old claims and compare and contrast them to modern claims of unlikely cures to non-existent ills.

[Zaira]

I believe it's all very simple. And it really is all in the mind. I'm not saying people are not becoming ill, I'm saying they are making themselves ill - Note: I’m not saying all people who are ill made themselves ill - they just don't realise it.

If someone was to take the people suffering from 'Mast insanity' to one side and explain, convincingly, that they are doing this to themselves, and carried out a few experiments to prove it, their symptoms would fade. Illness and disease are the result of ignorance due to the fact that we do not realise what we are doing to ourselves.

People just don't know enough about how the mind works. They don't realise what they are doing to themselves with every thought they have.

Unfortunately, even if they were to become aware of it, in most cases it's too late, the body has already suffered irreparable damage.

In my humble opinion, the fact that 'the quality of our lives depend on the quality of our thoughts' needs to be taught to our children. We are aware that we need to take care of our bodies in order to live longer, and we are teaching this to our children. It's time we also taught them about the power of the mind. The real power of the mind. Not this parapsychology mumble jumble.

And we could start by explaining why this worked……

"The Prince of Orange, at the siege of Breda, in 1625, cured all his soldiers who were dying of the scurvy, by a philanthropic piece of quackery, which he played upon them with the knowledge of the physicians, when all other means had failed. [See Van der Mye's account of the siege of Breda. The garrison, being afflicted with scurvy, the Prince of Orange sent the physicians two or three small phials, containing a decoction of camomile, wormwood, and camphor, telling them to pretend that it was a medicine of the greatest value and extremist rarity, which had been procured with very much danger and difficulty from the East; and so strong, that two or three drops would impart a healing virtue to a gallon of water. The soldiers had faith in their commander; they took the medicine with cheerful faces, and grew well rapidly. They afterwards thronged about the Prince in groups of twenty and thirty at a time, praising his skill, and loading him with protestations of gratitude."

[Araneus]

I believe it's all very simple. And it really is all in the mind. I'm not saying people are not becoming ill, I'm saying they are making themselves ill - Note: I’m not saying all people who are ill made themselves ill - they just don't realise it.

If someone was to take the people suffering from 'Mast insanity' to one side and explain, convincingly, that they are doing this to themselves, and carried out a few experiments to prove it, their symptoms would fade.

You are confusing illness with perceived symptoms. This experiment says nothing about whether or not EM waves have long-term effects on the body (although it is unlikely), it is purely concerned with the perceived, conscious "symptoms" experienced by the so-called "sensitive" people.


Illness and disease are the result of ignorance due to the fact that we do not realise what we are doing to ourselves.Most diseases are caused by pathogens -- bacteria, viruses, prions etc which have a physical effect on the human body. Ignorance may result in a greater chance of exposure to pathogens, but it does not cause illness in itself.


People just don't know enough about how the mind works. They don't realise what they are doing to themselves with every thought they have. Unfortunately, even if they were to become aware of it, in most cases it's too late, the body has already suffered irreparable damage.Care to give some examples of "irreparable damage" caused by thoughts alone? I know that psychological afflictions like depression can have a physical effect on the body, but it is not irreparable by any means.

Statements like this appear on first inspection to be just an incarnation of the "law of attraction" thought-influencing-the-universe woo which has no basis in reality.

[brianp]

It's rather ironic that, say, 100+ years ago things like electricity, magnetism, and even radioactive materials, were being sold as universal panaceas for all sorts of medical problems.

As recently as the 1930s they were marketing "Radium Water" as a universal panacea. There was a fantastic headline in the Wall Street Journal in 1932 about the death of a rich guy called Eben Byers who drank three bottle a day of "Radithor".


The Radium Water Worked Fine until His Jaw Came Off.See http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/PopularScience/2004/08/2/index.html

[bindeweede]

As recently as the 1930s they were marketing "Radium Water" as a universal panacea. There was a fantastic headline in the Wall Street Journal in 1932 about the death of a rich guy called Eben Byers who drank three bottle a day of "Radithor".

See http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/PopularScience/2004/08/2/index.html

Just wondering if "Nymphomax" will do anything for my tinnitus;D.
Loved the link.

[brianp]

Just wondering if "Nymphomax" will do anything for my tinnitus;D.

The name suggests that it's intended to have a quite different effect and on the female of the species rather than the male.:cheesy:

[wooo_oops]

It's expensive believing in this type of thing.

A friend of mine once tried to convince me that the £100+ she spent on a Lakhovsky coil (http://www.lifetechnology.co.uk/lakhovskyantenna.htm) prescribed for her house by a feng shui bloke was worth it. Did it work?


Did it f***. She's still an alcoholic.

[bindeweede]

It's expensive believing in this type of thing.

A friend of mine once tried to convince me that the £100+ she spent on a Lakhovsky coil (http://www.lifetechnology.co.uk/lakhovskyantenna.htm) prescribed for her house by a feng shui bloke was worth it. Did it work?


Did it f***. She's still an alcoholic.

It is expensive. Did you see the Psychotronic Wishing Machine on the same site?

The Psychotronic Wishing Machine ™ is priced at £399.95 and is supplied complete with instructions. This unique product is created and sold only by Life Technology™ and consequently is not available to buy at any other internet location.


Then, there is a "money magnet". I think we can guess in which direction most of the money will be going.

In 2007 we have introduced a new larger macro sized version of The Ultra Advanced Psychotronic Money Magnet™ which is priced at £199.95.

[Zaira]

Araneus,

What is the difference between illness and perceived symptoms?


Perhaps not by thought alone but it does start there. Your mind rules your body and your imagination does the rest. People have been known to make themselves ill with worry, stress etc.

[wooo_oops]

It is expensive. Did you see the Psychotronic Wishing Machine on the same site?

Yeh, and theAtlantean Power Crystal™.Harness the healing and magickal power of Atlantis...


Atlantis was a highly technologically developed civilization that came to a sudden cataclysmic end 12,000 years ago, due to the misuse of these powerful crystals...
The Atlantean Power Crystal™ is available in two sizes. The original version weighs 100grams and is priced at £199.95. The larger size version weighs approximately 250mg is priced at £399.95.

I wonder what Trading Standards would have to say.;)


Then, there is a "money magnet". I think we can guess in which direction most of the money will be going.

;D

[Cuddles]

Perhaps not by thought alone but it does start there. Your mind rules your body and your imagination does the rest.

No it doesn't. While there are some psychosomatic and psychological illnesses, the vast majority are caused by viruses and bacteria. If you get infected with Ebola, for example, it doesn't matter what your mind says.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

No it doesn't. While there are some psychosomatic and psychological illnesses, the vast majority are caused by viruses and bacteria. If you get infected with Ebola, for example, it doesn't matter what your mind says.

Certainly if you develop CJD, your mind isn't going to be able to help much.

[Woodchopper]

Araneus,



What is the difference between illness and perceived symptoms?




Perhaps not by thought alone but it does start there. Your mind rules your body and your imagination does the rest. People have been known to make themselves ill with worry, stress etc.

Well I wish that my mind ruled my body. Unfortunately it seems to be the other way round. All these inconvenient needs like sleep, food or liquid. Just so tiresome.

[median]

Zaira stated
Perhaps not by thought alone but it does start there. Your mind rules your body and your imagination does the rest. People have been known to make themselves ill with worry, stress etc.

One can rarely make themselves ill but I remember some research a few years ago about the effects of the nervous system as an immunosuppressive

see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011116064459.htm

This is a few years old though