Psychic Sarah: Madeleine McCann predictions.

[psychicsarah]

https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News (https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News)

Here is my take on it here below (with love!!!)


NB... Copy sent to Leicestershire police and info sent to Portugeuse Police through Dalkey Gardes in Dublin ....


I first got the psychic tip of Maddy being 2 to 4 miles North East from where she was taken before the Ducth tip off came in (a week before) ...so when I heard it on the news I KNEW is was NOT a hoax...it seems the approx distance of the place here decribed below is 7 to 9 KMS from P de LUZ


But the main point I wish to make is that the Dutch tip off was NOT a hoax...The search just has to move a little further to find the area described here below...


clues here below

Go 9 kms North East from P De Luz and work your way back towards P de LUz ......from the site of the tip off..to about 7 kms from P de Luz

There should be a site of the following description....just before you stop you drive down between two white inhabited houses...

Go through the village of the yellow houses and park up on the road when you can't go any further by car...get out and walk...there is a shrine on the road with red candles in it? then a concealed path...steep hill (One in 5 gradiient?)

There is a yellow derelict house and broken wall in this area...search along the wall....the key clue is the shrine on the side of the road with something in it....then there should be a pull in layby just after this....There should be fruit trees (not many ) one or two perhaps in the grounds of the house.

Also a gulley and steep hill...perhaps wooded at the top...very dense bushes and undergrowth in whole area

How many REMOTE outpost type places can there be within a 9 to 15 mile radius which fit this description???

With a bus stop...a petrol pump...old dilapidated thing...(Green?)

Two houses side by side ...that you drive through...'go between'

.....a broken wall... Pear trees growing


the yellow house? This house is PAINTED Yellow...possible Lemon coloured and faded ...but painted...(ie not simply that it is sandstone)...a broken wall beside it...derelict

Where is the isolated petrol pump? ...bus stop...and place where you can get food (small store...out post) ...it is isolated... a broken wall...off mud track of a road up in the hills...

She is not buried...area not yet searched...

San Miguel (name of a house?)...but this also links to 'LOOK FURTHER' .....the logo of the current San Miguel AD)

'pop or 'poppy' (Maddy's name for someone or something) ...'pippy'

63...number of a house....cork trees in the region have dates on the trunks...

A broken wall is IMPORTANT...I gather there is one beside the yellow house...

Search needs to continue....'9 and go back' is also significant....was she driven 9 miles out and then the man/woman came back...ie he/she is local...

It is a 20 minute drive when the roads are deserted


NB>>> Joanna is also missing in the area...she went missing 2004 and body has never been found...last seen coming out of a shop in the village of Figueira


Article re MAddy


Clearly the magnificently over-the-top international MADDY campaign has the appearance of being commendable; but in my opinion this is a futile search across the world which is leading to all sorts of bogus sightings and misleading stories that are wasting police time. Gypsies in airports, A blond lady collecting her blond child from the Gypsies in the hills, Numerous sightings in Africa, Amsterdam, Africa, and 101 sightings in Malta. This is one well-travelled child.

Of course all leads have to be investigated, and I do not mean to be irresponsible in what I am saying. It is just that I strongly believe that the elevated profile of Maddy’s parents and the ‘Find Maddy’ campaign has actually lengthened the duration of the search. Okay the Maddy hunt has raised the profile of missing kids everywhere, which can only be positive, and hopefully the Maddy fund will be put to good use in time to help others.

The Mc Cann’s are now making the search for Maddy their life’s work. Gerry Mc Cann has vowed to dedicate the rest of his time on earth to finding his daughter. As her father, this is exactly what you would expect him to say and do. I only hope it does not take that long. The guilt the Mc Cann’s must be feeling is immense; yet I really feel they are barking up the wrong tree. They are under the impression that Maddy has been abducted, and is still alive, waiting to be found or released. I certainly hope and pray this is true, but when Gerry and Kate were interviewed from their hill top villa last week sharing their myriad of ideas of ‘how to keep the profile high’ I found myself almost shouting at the TV...

WHY ARE YOU NOT SCOURING THE HILLS BEHIND YOU?

I know if I were Maddy’s mum I would be doing exactly that. Kate has said herself that she feels closest to Maddy in Portugal. Even though logically speaking Maddy could now be back in the UK, I believe a mother’s instinct is never wrong.

I am glad that the Mc Cann’s got to visit The Pope, and the butterfly which fluttered around Kate when she held The Pope’s hand can surely be taken as a sign of hope?

True, it could be, but butterflies often signal a passing from this world to the next and they are frequently seen at funerals. They represent transition, transformation and resurrection. I do believe this butterfly was a sign from Maddy, reassuring her mother, trying to bringing her some comfort…

I can not go into all the clues I have now passed onto the police but I believe that Maddy is not a stone’s throw from where she was taken. I believe she is in a place which is a 20 minute drive away when the roads are deserted.

I had not intended to get involved psychically in the search for Maddy, but shortly BEFORE the tip off from the Dutch newspaper I got a strong message that the authorities needed to search an area 2 to 4 miles from Pereira de Luz in a North Easterly direction.

Having searched the internet for the opinion of other psychics on this matter, I was probably as confused as anyone until this STRONG message happened upon me.

Many psychics on the net seemed to be linking Maddy’s abduction with boats, water, Northern Africa, remote farm buildings, out houses etc. Some were saying she was still alive in a family situation with her hair dyed black, possibly being kept in Spain or Northern Africa. None of it felt right to me. Okay, they may be right and I may be wrong; but I don’t get a whiff of a boat, water, or black wigs linking to this case. I believe she is inland in a remote desolate place…

In a way I hope I was just picking up on the Dutch related search; but that seems too obscure to me and most unlikely. It is not really born out by my experience of predicting stuff in the past. What would be the point in that? To me it confirmed that the Dutch tip off was NOT a hoax…This seemed to be the most specific lead thus far and I wish they would keep looking…

After the Dutch Tip off which linked the search directly to Oxadiere, it seemed that the ‘2 to 4’ message meant 2 to 4 cms on my map (Irish Indo’s recent Algarve booklet).

This area covers exactly the 9 to 15 kms from Pereira De Luz to Oxadiere and then on to Figueira. These two villages are exactly North East of Pereira De Luz. Oxadiere is 9 kms away (2cms) and Figueira (where a girl called Joanna was last seen in 2004) is 15 kms away (4 cms).

I am not suggesting these two crimes are linked, but I do believe the two girls are both out there waiting to be found. It could yet prove to be correct that she is in fact only 2 to 4 miles from Pereira De Luz. The overlap between the Dutch tip off and my info is interesting and to me validates the need to search MUCH more extensively in a 20 km radius North of Pereira.

When the tip off came in from Holland I just KNEW they had the right lead. I was so frustrated to hear that they had only given a cursory search because they had already covered the area. I do NOT think the tip off from the Dutch newspaper was a hoax. They found a towel when this area was searched…which may or may not be the towel in which she was carried out of the apartment. A similar tip off to the Dutch newspaper a couple of years ago exactly pin pointed where two kids were to be found in Belgian. Allegedly the tip off was from a psychic.

I do not believe it was…

Surely this should have seen the beginning of a massive search in the area…I feel strongly that they need to keep searching the mountainous region North of Pereira De Luz and I am particularly drawn to the road to Pereira which leads in a westerly direction off the northerly road to Monchique.

Joanna went missing in 2004, 7 miles from where Maddy was taken. She was last seen coming out of a shop in the village of Figueira. The Mother was put away for this crime after a confession was beaten out of her. She admitted to mutilating her daughter’s body under duress. The Policeman who recently got reprimanded by a magistrate for his unorthodox techniques is still in charge of the investigation to find Maddy. I am not saying these two missing girls are linked by the same crime or the same criminal, but they ARE both out there waiting to be found. I would be absolutely over the moon if Joanna were found as a result of the psychic tip offs, and that Maddy has simply been whisked away for a time to be doted on by someone feeling the void of a child in their lives…But…

Anyhow, I have passed this and other info onto Sky News and a couple of journalists in The Algarve. I had heard about the secretive system and unusual laws in Portugal so thought it best to try some other avenues to pass on the info I had received. I also emailed the Leicester Police just in case they could pass the message on. Unusually I went onto the message boards of sky news because I felt strongly that an enlightened journalist or the police would read it and get in touch. Normally I would keep such information totally private and go straight to the Gardes. But in this case I felt very strongly that it was right to try to get the info out in this way.

I knew I was setting myself up for criticism, but I felt it was the best way to try and help find Maddy. I know the Mc Cann’s are deeply religious and would never seek out a reputable psychic on this matter; even though I too have a strong faith. This was the only approach I could think of to take. It was a judgement call that looked all wrong, but which actually turned out okay. My posts on the message boards DID have the desired effect. An ex cop saw them and phoned me.

This officer ‘happened upon’ the lively discussion I was having with scathing skeptics and people generally ignorant on all things psychic. I now wish I had not taken this route to getting involved in the hunt for Maddy, as it seemed to be a pointless, negative discussion. Thankfully though, the right person DID see what I was trying to do and got in touch


The ex Police officer is now out in Portugal following up the leads and searching for further evidence (Maddy’s pyjamas). This person noticed that what I was saying coincided with what a reputable psychic in Wakefield had told her about Maddy. This lady is now out there with her father pursuing these leads privately. I hope they get somewhere…but of course they may not.

The info has also been passed on to the Portuguese Police through our own Garde system. A random call I made to RTE’s Crime Call after the Mc Cann’s appearance lead to two detectives on my doorstep last weekend. They had come looking for Irish holiday snaps, but at least their visit meant that the info would finally get through to the Mc cann’s and the Portuguese Police. I hope this all leads to a resolution for Maddy’s sake.

After my experience on the message boards I am painfully aware that some people just do not like psychics or their take on life, so let’s just be logical for a second.

IF Maddy is alive there is really only one scenario which fits with all the clues coming in across the ether. One thing IS for sure; to still be alive at this point Maddy would have to be VERY well looked after. Maddy is a bright but delicate child. The distinctive marking on her eye indicates a weak spleen and stomach. One kick and she would be gone. I am not saying this is what has happened to her because it is not. Suffice to say though, Maddy would NOT cope with anything physically difficult for too long.

Because of her physical weakness, if she is still alive Maddy must surely now be happily ensconced with a loving Northern African family who paid handsomely for the privilege of having a gorgeous blue eyed blond child in their midst. To escape the pressure this family recently escaped for a holiday on their private boat to the small civilized island of Malta where everybody knows everybody. A couple of nights ago because of all the attention, they returned under cover of darkness to their third home in Algeria where they will reside while they work out what to do next.

Hopefully soon they will get severe pangs of conscience and release Maddy into a crowded market place, or leave her in a church. At the worst, perhaps they will just keep her until she is a teenager when she will manage to escape by herself if she even wants to by then…

An unconvincing fairy tale or the truth?

[psychicsarah]

Here is my take on it here below (with love!!!)


NB... Copy sent to Leicestershire police and info sent to Portugeuse Police through Dalkey Gardes in Dublin ....


I first got the psychic tip of Maddy being 2 to 4 miles North East from where she was taken before the Ducth tip off came in (a week before) ...so when I heard it on the news I KNEW is was NOT a hoax...it seems the approx distance of the place here decribed below is 7 to 9 KMS from P de LUZ


But the main point I wish to make is that the Dutch tip off was NOT a hoax...The search just has to move a little further to find the area described here below...


clues here below

Go 9 kms North East from P De Luz and work your way back towards P de LUz ......from the site of the tip off..to about 7 kms from P de Luz

There should be a site of the following description....just before you stop you drive down between two white inhabited houses...

Go through the village of the yellow houses and park up on the road when you can't go any further by car...get out and walk...there is a shrine on the road with red candles in it? then a concealed path...steep hill (One in 5 gradiient?)

There is a yellow derelict house and broken wall in this area...search along the wall....the key clue is the shrine on the side of the road with something in it....then there should be a pull in layby just after this....There should be fruit trees (not many ) one or two perhaps in the grounds of the house.

Also a gulley and steep hill...perhaps wooded at the top...very dense bushes and undergrowth in whole area

How many REMOTE outpost type places can there be within a 9 to 15 mile radius which fit this description???

With a bus stop...a petrol pump...old dilapidated thing...(Green?)

Two houses side by side ...that you drive through...'go between'

.....a broken wall... Pear trees growing


the yellow house? This house is PAINTED Yellow...possible Lemon coloured and faded ...but painted...(ie not simply that it is sandstone)...a broken wall beside it...derelict

Where is the isolated petrol pump? ...bus stop...and place where you can get food (small store...out post) ...it is isolated... a broken wall...off mud track of a road up in the hills...

She is not buried...area not yet searched...

San Miguel (name of a house?)...but this also links to 'LOOK FURTHER' .....the logo of the current San Miguel AD)

'pop or 'poppy' (Maddy's name for someone or something) ...'pippy'

63...number of a house....cork trees in the region have dates on the trunks...

A broken wall is IMPORTANT...I gather there is one beside the yellow house...

Search needs to continue....'9 and go back' is also significant....was she driven 9 miles out and then the man/woman came back...ie he/she is local...

It is a 20 minute drive when the roads are deserted


NB>>> Joanna is also missing in the area...she went missing 2004 and body has never been found...last seen coming out of a shop in the village of Figueira


Article re MAddy


Clearly the magnificently over-the-top international MADDY campaign has the appearance of being commendable; but in my opinion this is a futile search across the world which is leading to all sorts of bogus sightings and misleading stories that are wasting police time. Gypsies in airports, A blond lady collecting her blond child from the Gypsies in the hills, Numerous sightings in Africa, Amsterdam, Africa, and 101 sightings in Malta. This is one well-travelled child.

Of course all leads have to be investigated, and I do not mean to be irresponsible in what I am saying. It is just that I strongly believe that the elevated profile of Maddy’s parents and the ‘Find Maddy’ campaign has actually lengthened the duration of the search. Okay the Maddy hunt has raised the profile of missing kids everywhere, which can only be positive, and hopefully the Maddy fund will be put to good use in time to help others.

The Mc Cann’s are now making the search for Maddy their life’s work. Gerry Mc Cann has vowed to dedicate the rest of his time on earth to finding his daughter. As her father, this is exactly what you would expect him to say and do. I only hope it does not take that long. The guilt the Mc Cann’s must be feeling is immense; yet I really feel they are barking up the wrong tree. They are under the impression that Maddy has been abducted, and is still alive, waiting to be found or released. I certainly hope and pray this is true, but when Gerry and Kate were interviewed from their hill top villa last week sharing their myriad of ideas of ‘how to keep the profile high’ I found myself almost shouting at the TV...

WHY ARE YOU NOT SCOURING THE HILLS BEHIND YOU?

I know if I were Maddy’s mum I would be doing exactly that. Kate has said herself that she feels closest to Maddy in Portugal. Even though logically speaking Maddy could now be back in the UK, I believe a mother’s instinct is never wrong.

I am glad that the Mc Cann’s got to visit The Pope, and the butterfly which fluttered around Kate when she held The Pope’s hand can surely be taken as a sign of hope?

True, it could be, but butterflies often signal a passing from this world to the next and they are frequently seen at funerals. They represent transition, transformation and resurrection. I do believe this butterfly was a sign from Maddy, reassuring her mother, trying to bringing her some comfort…

I can not go into all the clues I have now passed onto the police but I believe that Maddy is not a stone’s throw from where she was taken. I believe she is in a place which is a 20 minute drive away when the roads are deserted.

I had not intended to get involved psychically in the search for Maddy, but shortly BEFORE the tip off from the Dutch newspaper I got a strong message that the authorities needed to search an area 2 to 4 miles from Pereira de Luz in a North Easterly direction.

Having searched the internet for the opinion of other psychics on this matter, I was probably as confused as anyone until this STRONG message happened upon me.

Many psychics on the net seemed to be linking Maddy’s abduction with boats, water, Northern Africa, remote farm buildings, out houses etc. Some were saying she was still alive in a family situation with her hair dyed black, possibly being kept in Spain or Northern Africa. None of it felt right to me. Okay, they may be right and I may be wrong; but I don’t get a whiff of a boat, water, or black wigs linking to this case. I believe she is inland in a remote desolate place…

In a way I hope I was just picking up on the Dutch related search; but that seems too obscure to me and most unlikely. It is not really born out by my experience of predicting stuff in the past. What would be the point in that? To me it confirmed that the Dutch tip off was NOT a hoax…This seemed to be the most specific lead thus far and I wish they would keep looking…

After the Dutch Tip off which linked the search directly to Oxadiere, it seemed that the ‘2 to 4’ message meant 2 to 4 cms on my map (Irish Indo’s recent Algarve booklet).

This area covers exactly the 9 to 15 kms from Pereira De Luz to Oxadiere and then on to Figueira. These two villages are exactly North East of Pereira De Luz. Oxadiere is 9 kms away (2cms) and Figueira (where a girl called Joanna was last seen in 2004) is 15 kms away (4 cms).

I am not suggesting these two crimes are linked, but I do believe the two girls are both out there waiting to be found. It could yet prove to be correct that she is in fact only 2 to 4 miles from Pereira De Luz. The overlap between the Dutch tip off and my info is interesting and to me validates the need to search MUCH more extensively in a 20 km radius North of Pereira.

When the tip off came in from Holland I just KNEW they had the right lead. I was so frustrated to hear that they had only given a cursory search because they had already covered the area. I do NOT think the tip off from the Dutch newspaper was a hoax. They found a towel when this area was searched…which may or may not be the towel in which she was carried out of the apartment. A similar tip off to the Dutch newspaper a couple of years ago exactly pin pointed where two kids were to be found in Belgian. Allegedly the tip off was from a psychic.

I do not believe it was…

Surely this should have seen the beginning of a massive search in the area…I feel strongly that they need to keep searching the mountainous region North of Pereira De Luz and I am particularly drawn to the road to Pereira which leads in a westerly direction off the northerly road to Monchique.

Joanna went missing in 2004, 7 miles from where Maddy was taken. She was last seen coming out of a shop in the village of Figueira. The Mother was put away for this crime after a confession was beaten out of her. She admitted to mutilating her daughter’s body under duress. The Policeman who recently got reprimanded by a magistrate for his unorthodox techniques is still in charge of the investigation to find Maddy. I am not saying these two missing girls are linked by the same crime or the same criminal, but they ARE both out there waiting to be found. I would be absolutely over the moon if Joanna were found as a result of the psychic tip offs, and that Maddy has simply been whisked away for a time to be doted on by someone feeling the void of a child in their lives…But…

Anyhow, I have passed this and other info onto Sky News and a couple of journalists in The Algarve. I had heard about the secretive system and unusual laws in Portugal so thought it best to try some other avenues to pass on the info I had received. I also emailed the Leicester Police just in case they could pass the message on. Unusually I went onto the message boards of sky news because I felt strongly that an enlightened journalist or the police would read it and get in touch. Normally I would keep such information totally private and go straight to the Gardes. But in this case I felt very strongly that it was right to try to get the info out in this way.

I knew I was setting myself up for criticism, but I felt it was the best way to try and help find Maddy. I know the Mc Cann’s are deeply religious and would never seek out a reputable psychic on this matter; even though I too have a strong faith. This was the only approach I could think of to take. It was a judgement call that looked all wrong, but which actually turned out okay. My posts on the message boards DID have the desired effect. An ex cop saw them and phoned me.

This officer ‘happened upon’ the lively discussion I was having with scathing skeptics and people generally ignorant on all things psychic. I now wish I had not taken this route to getting involved in the hunt for Maddy, as it seemed to be a pointless, negative discussion. Thankfully though, the right person DID see what I was trying to do and got in touch


The ex Police officer is now out in Portugal following up the leads and searching for further evidence (Maddy’s pyjamas). This person noticed that what I was saying coincided with what a reputable psychic in Wakefield had told her about Maddy. This lady is now out there with her father pursuing these leads privately. I hope they get somewhere…but of course they may not.

The info has also been passed on to the Portuguese Police through our own Garde system. A random call I made to RTE’s Crime Call after the Mc Cann’s appearance lead to two detectives on my doorstep last weekend. They had come looking for Irish holiday snaps, but at least their visit meant that the info would finally get through to the Mc cann’s and the Portuguese Police. I hope this all leads to a resolution for Maddy’s sake.

After my experience on the message boards I am painfully aware that some people just do not like psychics or their take on life, so let’s just be logical for a second.

IF Maddy is alive there is really only one scenario which fits with all the clues coming in across the ether. One thing IS for sure; to still be alive at this point Maddy would have to be VERY well looked after. Maddy is a bright but delicate child. The distinctive marking on her eye indicates a weak spleen and stomach. One kick and she would be gone. I am not saying this is what has happened to her because it is not. Suffice to say though, Maddy would NOT cope with anything physically difficult for too long.

Because of her physical weakness, if she is still alive Maddy must surely now be happily ensconced with a loving Northern African family who paid handsomely for the privilege of having a gorgeous blue eyed blond child in their midst. To escape the pressure this family recently escaped for a holiday on their private boat to the small civilized island of Malta where everybody knows everybody. A couple of nights ago because of all the attention, they returned under cover of darkness to their third home in Algeria where they will reside while they work out what to do next.

Hopefully soon they will get severe pangs of conscience and release Maddy into a crowded market place, or leave her in a church. At the worst, perhaps they will just keep her until she is a teenager when she will manage to escape by herself if she even wants to by then…

An unconvincing fairy tale or the truth?


NB

More on sky news thread entitiled 'psychic help in the maddy case'

https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News (https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1243&Category=UK%20News)

More on Mirror forum...thread 'entitiled psychic update'

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2559&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[psychicsarah]

Someone posted the evidence thus far on sky...it is interesting

https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=2148&Category=UK%20News

I have never yet read about the case...so it was interesting to see it all laid out

what I find really odd are these two comments below....they read to me like they are very contrived...


quote

He (Gerry) starts by saying he first checked the children at 9.05. When he entered the apartment, he just thought it was starnge that the bedroom door was partly open. But he checked the window, which was closed, just like the shutters, and relaxed.

His friend Jane Tanner, Russell’s wife, says that ten minutes after he returned to the table, it was her turn to check the rooms. She crossed ways with a dark haired man who was walking in the opposite direction carrying a child, but she didn’t find it strange. But she memorized the individual from head to toes, so she could later describe him in great detail.


I picked up psychically that Maddy was taken at 9.10....(was the person in the apartment when Gerry checked.?)..

I actually feel he did not check at all at that time at all ...and it is nonsense that 10 minutes after he was back that Jane Tanner then went to check..I am sure .they did NOT check this regularly on the kids...

What I suspect is that Jane Tanner went to check....but only put her head inside the door of the apartment and on hearing nothing came back...(if she checked at all...in other words in a way she did NOT check at all...I do not believe she clapped eyes on the kids at all...if she had she would have seen Maddy was gone....I strongly pick up she was taken at 9.10pm)

I bet that Gerry did not go at that time of 9 05 he said...I suspect they were checked for the first (and only) time at quarter to 9 (if then) ...then Kate found her gone at 10pm

I actually think the first time they were checked properly was when Kate went up at 10pm

I do not believe that Gerry and Jane checked within 10 minutes of each other...


Jane's comment makes no sense because Maddy wasn't discovered missing until Kate went up to the depratment at 10 to collect something


IN which case Jane must be having a severe memory lapse...other wise she would have found Maddy gone sooner than 10


I strongly suspect that Jane may NOT have seen a man carrying Maddy at all.... or that if she did ...her statement of saying she checked him out very carefully is a complete lie...if she were THAT suspicious of him...she would have challenged him


I do not trust this evidence from Gerry and Jane...but it doesn't mean either of them did it...it simply shows their possible lack of memory on this matter .....

[Dr B]

I'm sorry - but this is not evidence. It is no more than rambling nonsense.

[Araneus]

It's simply incredible how many words somebody can use to say absolutely nothing.

[vbloke]

... snip...

rambling nonsense - either condense it down to something intelligible or just admit that that's a large pile of straws you're clutching at.

[psychicsarah]

It is called an article boys...


But will work on condensing it for you..

[Dr B]

It is called an article boys...

No it's not - its called rambling.



But will work on condensing it for you..

Much appreciated. During your revision try to be (i) as explicit as you can be, (ii) as logical as you can be (iii) provide as much refutable evidence as you can, and (iv) avoid open-ended statements and speculation. O0

[psychicsarah]

Hope this is concise enough

She will soon be found...

[vbloke]

Hope this is concise enough

She will soon be found...How soon is "soon"?
This week, next week, next month?

You'll have to do better than that.

[psychicsarah]

Forgot to update you...

The ex cop (mentioned in article...sorry 'waffle' ... above) found something of significance in a place which matched my description

I liased with her when she was over there by text and phone

We reported what was found to local police and now hope it leads to a more extensive search of the area...

It is a little further down the road from the Dutch Tip off

I am not convinced they will search further as the local police seem to be HOT re the leads regarding Murat and Malinka and the thought that she has been taken out by boat...(re the fairy tale version above)


Re 'when'....I always felt the 26th was very significant...it ends a Uranus cycle and is the 84th day...I would say if she is not found on this day there will be a significant break through on this day

She will be found by mid August any how ...I would say in the next 2 to 3 weeks..

My main psychic leads were re LOCATION as opposed to what happened to her and why (though I have those impressions to and went into these in more detail for the detectives...they are not for pubic consumption)

But I believe Maddy will be found by some one going about their daily business....'happened upon'

[vbloke]

OK then.

Give us a LOCATION to within 200 yards radius (not "in a wooded area" which is vague enough to be anywhere) or a place name or road name.

Time - you've said 2 - 3 weeks, by mid-august. We'll hold you to that.

[Dr B]

This is still rambling nonsense....move along everyone....there is nothing to see here....move along....

:angel:

[Dr B]

Hope this is concise enough

She will soon be found...

I noticed you failed to be...


(i) as explicit as you can be, (ii) as logical as you can be (iii) provide as much refutable evidence as you can, and (iv) avoid open-ended statements and speculation. O0

Try again or go away.

[Admin]

Does anyone know anything about the Revs on this forum?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/249341/thread/1183353426/last-1183410261/Where+is+Madeline-+++++++++THREAD++05

I think the postings are getting a bit scary and likely to upset some people so I wondered if you'd heard about him/her/they before?

Thanks in advance.

Someone emailed me about that forum and it's commented on here: http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary/2007/07/22/madeleine-mccann-psychic-predictions-and-insights/

I don't know who these guys are though.

I found it ironic that psychics, people who give out completely erroneous and uncorroborated information, should be so offended by someone else doing exactly the same thing!

Their proviso for being a 'genuine psychic' seems to be that you have to say nice things. ::)

To me, it shouldn't be about how nice the things they say are but how accurate they are.

It was quite revealing about how they think actually. They took it implicitly that the posting was a load of rubbish (i.e. not accurate) and were deeply shocked that someone could come out with such statements.

Perhaps they should apply the same level of insight to the complete crap they come out with themselves? Then they might just realise why non-psychics are equally as disgusted at the rubbish that they come out with.

[Admin]

Hope this is concise enough

She will soon be found...

In true psychic style even that little sentence is as vague and meaningless as you can get!! ;D

I've just been reading your posts (the ones you haven't deleted - you do a lot of that for some reason) on the Mirror forum. They've got you sussed haven't they?

Right...

You say that an ex-police woman went over to Portugal to locate the place that you predicted needs searching. You also say that this ex-policewoman didn't make a note of the location. Are we expected to believe that someone, an ex-professional, spent their time and money going to Portugal to investigate your claim, found the location and didn't make a note of where it was?

Guess what? I don't believe you.

You seem to be having trouble deciding whether Madeleine is buried or concealed, alive or dead, but you're sure that she will be found "soon" although if she's not, the time when she should have been found will be "significant" anyway.

Guess what? I don't believe you.

I think that you really do think that you're having some input on this case, but I suspect the police will have checked you out, labelled you as a time-wasting crank, and the 'information' you're giving them will be filed in the most appropriate container: a bin.

I'm sorry, but to me, you look like your living out a fantasy here much like Amanda Hart (whose psychic insights are nothing like yours).

And all this "I only want to help Madeleine" crap is just a fallacious Appeal to Virtue. The fact that you're sharing your psychic fantasy world on public forums suggests that it's all about one person: you.

[Admin]

I've split this posting to form a new topic as it had nothing to do with the Matthew James thread and there are some claims here, although rather vague at times and without context.

[Admin]

I first got the psychic tip of Maddy being 2 to 4 miles North East from where she was taken before the Ducth tip off came in (a week before) ...so when I heard it on the news I KNEW is was NOT a hoax...it seems the approx distance of the place here decribed below is 7 to 9 KMS from P de LUZ

But the main point I wish to make is that the Dutch tip off was NOT a hoax...The search just has to move a little further to find the area described here below...

The point is that you don't know that it wasn't a hoax. A 'psychic tip' cannot be considered as a reliable way of discerning truth.

The Dutch tip-off was investigated and nothing was found. From here (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007270810,00.html):
For several hours, more than 30 Guarda Nacional Repulicana, 20 Policia Judiciara (PJ) and four specialist dogs combed the scrubland.
But the search was called off later in the morning and the lead dismissed.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa from the PJ said: “The search has been carried out. This clue has been completely checked and the result was negative, so the investigation goes on.”
But you're claiming that the information was genuine and the police just didn't look hard enough?

Let's look at the clues:


Go 9 kms North East from P De Luz and work your way back towards P de LUz ......from the site of the tip off..to about 7 kms from P de Luz

There should be a site of the following description....just before you stop you drive down between two white inhabited houses...

Go through the village of the yellow houses and park up on the road when you can't go any further by car...get out and walk...there is a shrine on the road with red candles in it? then a concealed path...steep hill (One in 5 gradiient?)

There is a yellow derelict house and broken wall in this area...search along the wall....the key clue is the shrine on the side of the road with something in it....then there should be a pull in layby just after this....There should be fruit trees (not many ) one or two perhaps in the grounds of the house.

Also a gulley and steep hill...perhaps wooded at the top...very dense bushes and undergrowth in whole area

How many REMOTE outpost type places can there be within a 9 to 15 mile radius which fit this description???

With a bus stop...a petrol pump...old dilapidated thing...(Green?)

Two houses side by side ...that you drive through...'go between'

.....a broken wall... Pear trees growing

Is this the place that the ex-policewoman found but forgot to write down the location?

Well, it's so specific that I'm sure it could be found again.

So, we have:

the yellow house? This house is PAINTED Yellow...possible Lemon coloured and faded ...but painted...(ie not simply that it is sandstone)...a broken wall beside it...derelict

A house that is derelict with a broken wall (not too unlikely) but is also painted yellow.

Well, I don't know about how they paint their houses in Portugal but if your location is also right then it should be able to be located. That's if there aren't a lot of derelict houses in that area and that painting houses yellow is rather uncommon.


Where is the isolated petrol pump? ...bus stop...and place where you can get food (small store...out post) ...it is isolated... a broken wall...off mud track of a road up in the hills...

You're just asking questions - I can't see how this really helps. You're the psychic so why don't you tell us? Unless you reveal useful information, all you're doing is making statements and asking questions that have no value as they can only be verified/falsified after the crime has been solved (!)


She is not buried...area not yet searched...

OK, a claim; but it can't be verified until after she's found.


San Miguel (name of a house?)...but this also links to 'LOOK FURTHER' .....the logo of the current San Miguel AD)

Again a question and no indication of what it's meant to mean or signify. It can't be verified until after she's found.


'pop or 'poppy' (Maddy's name for someone or something) ...'pippy'

How does that help in any way? Again, it's just something that can only be made to fit after she's found. It's meaningless until it's retrofitted. I take it that "puppy" can be ruled out as it would be so obvious?


63...number of a house....cork trees in the region have dates on the trunks...

Is 63 the number of the house that's painted yellow or just the number of a house?

Cork trees in all regions will probably have dates on them. How does this help? How can this information help? It's set up to be retrofitted again.


A broken wall is IMPORTANT...I gather there is one beside the yellow house...

Important in what way? What actual significance does it have and how can its importance be used to help the case?


Search needs to continue....'9 and go back' is also significant....was she driven 9 miles out and then the man/woman came back...ie he/she is local...

This is another rhetorical question. Even if (s)he is local how does this help? In an area where perhaps tens of thousands of people live saying (s)he's local isn't of much use in predicting anything.


It is a 20 minute drive when the roads are deserted

What is?

And again, how can that be used to predict anything or help in any way? Not only do we not know where the starting point is we also don't know who is doing the travelling.

If you want to play at being a Psychic Detective then you're going to have to come up with information that can be used to solve the crime and not make statements that can only be evaluated after the crime has been solved by the police.

Anyone who looks into the the way self-proclaimed psychic detectives work will recognise the statements that have no predictive value but are sufficiently vague as to be retrofitted after the event.

Things that 'link in', 'have significance' or are given without context or meaning cannot be used in any useful or meaningful way. They can only be used by psychics after the event to claim that they 'helped the police'.

Well they don't help the police - apart from in their imaginations. ;)

[Julia]

Well said, John! I'm damn sure that the rambling, incoherent tips given to the world's police forces by "psychics" go straight into the bin.

[Jocky]

Well said, John! I'm damn sure that the rambling, incoherent tips given to the world's police forces by "psychics" go straight into the bin.

Damn right they do! Look! (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=47)

[Admin]

I am glad that the Mc Cann’s got to visit The Pope, and the butterfly which fluttered around Kate when she held The Pope’s hand can surely be taken as a sign of hope?

True, it could be, but butterflies often signal a passing from this world to the next and they are frequently seen at funerals. They represent transition, transformation and resurrection. I do believe this butterfly was a sign from Maddy, reassuring her mother, trying to bringing her some comfort…

How do you know that about butterflies? Could you tell us how that was discerned or cite a reliable source?

Of course you can't. You see, all of this is just fanciful interpretation and it means whatever you want it to mean.


Many psychics on the net seemed to be linking Maddy’s abduction with boats, water, Northern Africa, remote farm buildings, out houses etc. Some were saying she was still alive in a family situation with her hair dyed black, possibly being kept in Spain or Northern Africa. None of it felt right to me. Okay, they may be right and I may be wrong; but I don’t get a whiff of a boat, water, or black wigs linking to this case. I believe she is inland in a remote desolate place…

If psychic power is real, why is it that they all come up with completely different information?

Surely if any of this was true then psychics should at least be reasonably close and their information should converge.

They all think that they are right, and they all want to be taken very seriously, but the fact that each one has a different story to tell means that none of them can be taken seriously.


Unusually I went onto the message boards of sky news because I felt strongly that an enlightened journalist or the police would read it and get in touch. Normally I would keep such information totally private and go straight to the Gardes. But in this case I felt very strongly that it was right to try to get the info out in this way.

Nothing to do with getting publicity for yourself then? ;)

I simply do not believe psychics who promote themselves by using their real names, and links back to their website etc. on public message boards then claim to be doing this for altruistic reasons.


I knew I was setting myself up for criticism, but I felt it was the best way to try and help find Maddy. I know the Mc Cann’s are deeply religious and would never seek out a reputable psychic on this matter; even though I too have a strong faith. This was the only approach I could think of to take. It was a judgement call that looked all wrong, but which actually turned out okay. My posts on the message boards DID have the desired effect. An ex cop saw them and phoned me.

So you are fully aware that the McCanns are religious and do not want or believe in psychics so you devised another way of getting involved even though your interference is unwelcome!

Again, this strongly indicates that your "I just want to help Madeleine" claim is bogus and this is all about you.

And it's rather disgusting of you to force your unwelcome and fantasy-driven views on people at the lowest time of their lives.


This officer ‘happened upon’ the lively discussion I was having with scathing skeptics and people generally ignorant on all things psychic.

I tend to find that skeptics know far more about alleged psychic abilities than the claimants do (!)

Ask them to explain the difference between a medium and a channeller, for example, and they haven't got a clue.


I now wish I had not taken this route to getting involved in the hunt for Maddy, as it seemed to be a pointless, negative discussion.

People have seen through your self-serving motivation here and see you for what you are: a psychic wannabe hoping to make a name for herself on the back of someone else's pain and grief.

Did it really surprise you that others found what you're doing disgusting?


After my experience on the message boards I am painfully aware that some people just do not like psychics or their take on life, so let’s just be logical for a second.

A psychic is telling skeptics to get logical!!! ;D


An unconvincing fairy tale or the truth?

:ponder:

That's a hard one. ::)

Sarah, you may well believe in your magical powers but your fantasy version of events is no more believable or useful than any of the other psychics' who've involved themselves with this case.

You may think that what you have to say is important but to those of us looking at all psychics in this case you're just another one in the crowd whose 'information' just adds to the noise. Your information is just more contradictory nonsense coming from someone who believes they have a magical ability.

[chillzero]

Regarding the specifics of the Algarve location... does anyone have Google Earth?

[psychicsarah]

You are ommitting to acknowledge one thing...the clues lead to us finding the site...

I was in Ireland...the ex police officer in Portrugal...we liased by text

We found something of significance in a SPECIFIC place...and reported it

This is NOT rambling nonsense...

NO they haven't got me sussed on the mirror forum...there is alot of negativity and ignorance on that forum...and bullying too..they don't have the first idea of what I am trying to do...which is to simply HELP

But at least the forum led to the person getting in touch who then went out and found the place (this was why I went on the forum in the first place and this intuition was proven to be CORRECT)

I do not work as a psychic I am a writer...so there is no need to hold me to anything...

I am trying to help find a missing little girl....

I posted here for your interest...but will not do so anymore...


O0

[vbloke]

I'm in half a mind to offer to pay for ps to go to Portugal with me and show me where Madeline is buried/kept.
It should stop her incessant self-promotion and waffling anyway.

[Araneus]

It should stop her incessant self-promotion and waffling anyway.

You know as well as anyone else that it won't make a blind bit of difference. No matter how obviously wrong psychics are, they'll always have some excuse for why their information turned out to be useless.

[Admin]

You are ommitting to acknowledge one thing...the clues lead to us finding the site...

We found something of significance in a SPECIFIC place...and reported it

What site and where?

You say it has significance but do the police think it's significant?

Or are we supposed to take you at face value?


I am trying to help find a missing little girl....

No you're not - you're using her plight in an attempt to make a name for yourself even though you're fully aware that the parents do not want charlatans like you involved.

You're succeeding in getting yourself known too. Just not in the way that you'd hoped. ;D

[psychicsarah]

This info is NOT useless

It has already led to a discovery of great significance...which I hinted at in the article but which I can't go into further in public

I have also given the police MORE info which is not for public consumption...(nor do I expect they will make you privy to this info after Maddy is found)

I am not just an Intuitive person...I am also an academic (I have 3 degrees) ...so I am well able to think logically too...

Let me just make it clear that I came onto the net re this info because I knew that someone who could help would get in touch and go out there and find the place I have been describing (as a result of reading the posted info)

This has already HAPPENED...

O0

[psychicsarah]

I wrote to the Daily Express journalist to ask exactly why the Dutch Tip off has been called a cruel hoax...no reply (Predictable!)

I wonder why they stopped searching when the towel was found by the Dutch Journalists?

It is quite possible the journalists hoped this 'discovery' would lead to a more extensive search....so sure were they about their tip off...

looks like it backfired...

[Admin]

OK Sarah.

Why don't you PM me with the information that you can't make public?

I'll keep it in the strictest of confidence and should it turn out to have been accurate later on I will publicly acknowledge the fact.

[psychicsarah]

:-\

[Admin]

Astrology is just a load of flowery waffle.

How about some hard, specific facts from you?

Like I said, I'll keep them private if you wish. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak. O0

[psychicsarah]

Re article in the Daily Express (logical hat on)


This article is wierd....the friends are saying they saw Murat AFTER Maddy was found to have gone missing...therefore how could this citing and allegedly new evidence be true if it were Murat who took her....??

If this citing is true then it can't be Murat who took Maddy....whoever did that would be long gone and wouldn't then be seen by the pool...

I also very much doubt that whoever took her would have scuttled along an open public road....for quite a distance (see map of alleged route)

If this citing is not true well then....why is it in the paper? another red herring perhaps???

If Jane saw a guy carrying a child in a blanket...this new citing can not be true (Unless she was not part of the party in the Tapas Bar..but I gather she was...???)

If you look at the route that this guy was meant to have taken....it is out of eye shot of the Tapas bar and also the route back to the apartment...

This smacks of nonsense to me....Who was the police source who divulged this info to the press...? I thought they kept all evidence quiet

Gerry is quoted in the article thanking everyone for their help again.....which is nice...

I am wondering if this article is pr to help keep the Maddy Campaign alive (quite right too)....

She is allegedly seen being taken towards the sea...therefore she might have been put into a boat and therefore she could be anywhere...Mmmmm....

Right????


That is interesting re Malinka and his links with boats etc.....and it certainly looks interesting re Murat and Malinka...perhaps then if this is true...the citings of Murat by the pool are just an attempt to link him to the scene....

What of the citings of three people with a child at the petrol station filling up?? Again did that actually happen?

No wonder the evidence is confused in this case!!!!

It would help if people told the truth...

[psychicsarah]

John...I know what people think re astrology ...it is there for your interest...Any way it helped me get more of a sense of Murat in particular....it is possible if you are intuitive to get quite a detailed profile from someone re their chart...(you can 'breathe them in if you like')

I will consider your suggestion John..though not sure if I should re the legal side of this case...

This is for your interest ...I do understand the skeptical point of view...(I am academically trained)

But I think we should all be more open minded

I think you will find there is something happening re this Maddy case...

As I said we already found stuff of significance...though I find it interesting cos I do not pick up that they then did a more extensive search. (makes you wonder!)


NB...

I do not want or need public acknowledgement re Maddy...I am trying to help find her...and I do appreciate it is controversial I have come on the net to try to do so...but this is because of the agendas at play in this case. (It has already led to someone going out there and finding something...)

[psychicsarah]

I am already known John...I am trying to HELP

I already explained I came onto the internet because I felt someone would get in contact and go out and find the site (because I couldn't)

This HAPPENED...

I am disappointed in this reply from you

No I won't send you the details privately of what I told the police...precisely because this is NOT about making a name for myself...and it is probably illegal for me to do that anyhow

I am just a citizen to gave up another kind of evidence at the end of the day

It is something I was meant to do to try and help...and it has already yielded something of significance..

Goodbye...

:sad:

[Admin]

Well consider this Sarah:

If you start claiming that you helped solve this case later on and you have not given your details to someone independent then no one will believe you.

You should consider giving your information to at least 2 independent people so should you make claims later on then at least you will have 2 or more independent sources who can confirm what you say.

If one of those sources is a skeptical organisation then it will carry a lot more weight than giving it to a friend, for example.

Anything you give me will be kept confidential. We are skeptics after all and we're prepared to test things rigorously but fairly. If we lose the trust of others then we'll never have further opportunities to do that. Maintaining integrity is paramount for us.

[psychicsarah]

I will NEVER claim I helped solve this case...that is not what this is about...It is all too sad for that


I have sent this info to reporters in the Algarve (in the hope they might go find the place!) ...I have many contacts in the media here in Ireland and they all know

A story has been in the Sunday Mirror here in Ireland (last week)...and the police have it all and more

I don't care whether people believe me or not...Nor do I care for public acknowledgement after wards (in fact I would rather NOT be linked with this)

I did what I did and hopefully it will lead to her being found...it may not though (as people are not obliged to listen)

But found she will be anyway...

:'(

[Admin]

Sorry, but I don't believe that your motivation is purely altruistic.

Your claim that you wanted someone to contact you only arose after it happened.

If you're not prepared to back up your claims by supplying the evidence then, to me, it only serves to strengthen what I say.

Claiming that you've found something significant but refuse to say what it is just looks like evasion.

[vbloke]

John...I know what people think re astrology ...it is there for your interest...Any way it helped me get more of a sense of Murat in particular....it is possible if you are intuitive to get quite a detailed profile from someone re their chart...(you can 'breathe them in if you like')It helps you get a sense of what someone is like in much the same as as casting bones or chicken gizzards - ie: useless, pointless and a waste of time. If you can tell me exactly HOW astrology can work, then we might consider your waffle.


This is for your interest ...I do understand the skeptical point of view...(I am academically trained)
This is for your self-promotion. Just because someone has academic qualifications, does not stop them from believing in rubbish.


But I think we should all be more open mindedbut not so open minded our brains fall out.


I think you will find there is something happening re this Maddy case...There is, and you can be sure that the police will be on top of it, no thanks to psychics or intuitives, but through a lot of hard work.


As I said we already found stuff of significance...though I find it interesting cos I do not pick up that they then did a more extensive search. (makes you wonder!)If you can't reveal what you said/wrote, then you can't bring it up here. It's like saying "I know where treasure is buried, but I'm not telling you where it is until someone else finds it!" and saying "I knew it was going to be there" when it is found - worthless.



I do not want or need public acknowledgement re Maddy...I am trying to help find her...and I do appreciate it is controversial I have come on the net to try to do so...but this is because of the agendas at play in this case. (It has already led to someone going out there and finding something...)
If you don't need publicity, whey are you going on a load of public forums spouting the same waffle if it's not for exposure?

If you were not interested in publicity at all, you wouldn't do any of this, just contact the relevant authorities and keep a low profile.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

[psychicsarah]

No John...I couldnt say what the first posts on the mirror and sky forums were there for...though I did hint at it on the mirror thread that has been deleted..and I think there is an explanation of that early in the sky thread too...

But this was my motivation for taking this route...absolutely...

If you think this is not altruistic that is fine...it really IS

There is quite a detailed hint in the article at what we found...but I can't go further...it doesn't matter if it looks evasive...it isn't it is just keeping within the bounds of the law...

[vbloke]

Let's look at the facts:

NO psychic has ever helped the police in the course of an official investigation.

Every police force we have contacted have replied that they DO NOT use psychics in their investigations.

All you have done is provide some vague waffle about a yellow house and the like.

I'd be surprised if you DIDN'T find something (even though you won't say what it is) in a piece of scrubland - people dump / leave things all over the place. I myself found a solid silver hip flask in a field a few years ago - it only means that someone dropped it, nothing more.

You are a serial fantasist, delusional and very possibly hampering the police investigation. I suggest that if you are truly concerned for Madeline, you stop this fantasy and let the police do their work.

[psychicsarah]

v bloke...you're very wrong

we found something very defiinite that suggested some very dubious activity ...

you obviously haven't done your research re psychics and the police...they won't admit to you that they use the likes of me...

we are just citizens with a different kind of evidence...


I am certainly NOT delusional nor a serial ...anything!!!

I'm perfectly sane thanks!


chow....

[Admin]

I don't care whether people believe me or not...

I've suspected this all along. ;)

You and the other 'psychics' are in it for the ego-trip. I suppose having the illusion that you have some magical power that can be used to guide and influence events makes you feel rather special and important.

I know I keep repeating myself but this is all about you and your fantasy. It's nothing to do with finding Madeleine or helping the police.

I've given you the opportunity to share what you claim to have found that is significant but you refuse to do so.

If you were really serious you'd jump at the chance. Instead, we get excuses.

You're no different to any other psychic claimant Sarah - as soon as you're asked to back up your claims with evidence you do what they all do: make excuses and back out.

Perhaps that's because: psychics cannot do what they claim they can do. ;)

[vbloke]

then tell us what it was, or stop going on about it.

I know an awful lot about psychics, the police and I'm also an academic. Checkmate.

[psychicsarah]

wrong again V Bloke

keeping this public is important...or was up to a point...the details of why are on the SKY news thread...

I only got breakthroughs on this by doing what I did...

I was not able to go to Portugal (though I am now looking into it)

The info has gone through the correct channels too...everything here and more

I am now going to stop the public aspect of this work...

It led to a significant discovery and that is good enough for me


I am not backing out of anything...I am perfectly open about what I do as you will see by the fact I came on here for your interest's sake

(Because I understand the skeptic take on such things)

over and out O0

[Jocky]

It led to a significant discovery and that is good enough for me

Did I miss something? To what significant discovery did sarah's ramblings lead ???

[psychicsarah]

read the article...can you not put two and two together???

or read the sky news thread more closely...

chow....O0

[Jocky]

you obviously haven't done your research re psychics and the police...they won't admit to you that they use the likes of me...

we are just citizens with a different kind of evidence...


Research (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=47)

Claiming that the Police actually do use psychic "evidence" but just won't admit to it is a preposterous argument. The only evidence of any value in the end is that which can be used in court, and any officer who stood up and said they found out so-and-so because some random member of the public had a dream about it would be literally laughed out of court.

Unless of course you have evidence for your assertion that the Police use psychic powers to catch villains.

No? Thought not.

[Admin]

we found something very defiinite that suggested some very dubious activity ...

That is completely vague, totally meaningless, and unverifiable.

It means precisely nothing.


you obviously haven't done your research re psychics and the police...they won't admit to you that they use the likes of me...

Of course we've done research. See: Police use of psychics (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=police_and_psychics.php).

See, that's what's known as verifiable evidence.


I am certainly NOT delusional nor a serial ...anything!!!

Well I'm not a psychiatrist but I'd love to hear the opinion of one. To see the level of fantasy that some of the psychics in this case have shown is beyond healthy to me.

The 'fantasy-prone personality' can actually seem perfectly normal in every day life. It's not until their fantasy is mentioned that they reveal themselves to be delusional.

And to be perfectly frank, some of the things that psychics come out with really do look like delusions - as a psychiatrist would recognise them.

What about the trip that Amanda Hart took us on? What about the musings of Rev. Hubbard?

Sorry, but that's pure delusion - not an ability. And you're of the same ilk Sarah. You're not being objective. In fact, you're purposely avoiding being objective, and sticking with the idea that you have the ability to affect events in Portugal from Ireland.

[vbloke]

wrong again V Bloke

keeping this public is important...or was up to a point...the details of why are on the SKY news thread...

I only got breakthroughs on this by doing what I did...

I was not able to go to Portugal (though I am now looking into it)

The info has gone through the correct channels too...everything here and more

I am now going to stop the public aspect of this work...

It led to a significant discovery and that is good enough for me


I am not backing out of anything...I am perfectly open about what I do as you will see by the fact I came on here for your interest's sake

(Because I understand the skeptic take on such things)

over and out O0
Pure fantasy.

If it's SO important, then why keep it a secret?

You really can't see that nothing you are saying is in any way evidence, or could be counted on as evidence in any court in any country on this planet. As John said, it would be laughed out of court.

If you're not backing out of anything, put your money where your mouth is and say something that doesn't sound like the delusional ramblings of a serial fantasist and actually predict something specific and not some vague nonsense.

You are not seeing the woods for the trees - the ONLY reason you're spouting off on these forums is not to reach the family, but to find like-minded fantasists to prop up your fantasy and massage your ego. You will find none of that here.

If you truly wanted to help find Madeline, you would be over in Portugal now, volunteering for police duties and helping comb through the countryside for clues, not sat hundreds of miles away, writing vague ramblings on messageboards. It's quite frankly pitiful. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Admin]

I am not backing out of anything...I am perfectly open about what I do as you will see by the fact I came on here for your interest's sake

Right, let's make this clear.

Psychic Sarah (http://www.sarahdelamerehurding.com/) has:
Made a claim that she has provided significant and useful information to the police;
Been asked to provide that information, which would be kept in confidentiality if required, so that it can be evaluated later for accuracy;
Has been advised that this information be given to other independent parties too to guard against tampering with it;
Has refused to provide this information; and
Resorted to making implausible excuses for not doing so. It would not be illegal to provide this information, for example.So let's be clear here.

A self-proclaimed psychic is being given the opportunity to provide evidence which could be used to back up her claims. This would mean that if her psychic information really was significant and really did help the police there would be tangible proof that this was true.

Now, the obvious question we should all be asking ourselves is: why is the psychic refusing to provide information that could be used to evaluate her claim?


.

[Bat E Bird]

I hope Sarah is correct. Not because I'm bothered about her credibility now or in future but because, like everyone, I want Madeleine to be found.

I've read most of the information that Sarah's given, during her process of elimination, on other forums so it isn't predicting, it's amateur sleuthing.

The only bit I haven't read before, is the information about the suspected location but, as I've seen Sarah's opinions change over the weeks and I've seen where she's removed previous postings, I don't hold much hope.

The date of the original posting is 15th July and I'm sure that the information would have been sent to the Police and reporters prior to this.

If someone in authority has taken her information seriously, why aren't we now reading reports that Madeleine has been found?

[Bat E Bird]

Someone emailed me about that forum and it's commented on here: http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary/2007/07/22/madeleine-mccann-psychic-predictions-and-insights/

I don't know who these guys are though.

I found it ironic that psychics, people who give out completely erroneous and uncorroborated information, should be so offended by someone else doing exactly the same thing!

Their proviso for being a 'genuine psychic' seems to be that you have to say nice things. ::)

To me, it shouldn't be about how nice the things they say are but how accurate they are.

It was quite revealing about how they think actually. They took it implicitly that the posting was a load of rubbish (i.e. not accurate) and were deeply shocked that someone could come out with such statements.

Perhaps they should apply the same level of insight to the complete crap they come out with themselves? Then they might just realise why non-psychics are equally as disgusted at the rubbish that they come out with.

I understand what you are saying and agree that psychics shouldn't meddle when they don't know for definite. However, there is still a kinder way of saying things and no need to use shock tactics.

I also know that some of the people complaining about the posting are not and do not claim to be psychic. They are members of another forum that I've been following since Madeleine first disappeared.

Like me, some of them want to believe that real psychics exist, but can't until there's proof.

I know you'll laugh but I enjoy reading Matt James's blog. Nothing may come of his predictions but at least it gives hope.

It entertains me anyway :smiley:

As an afterthought, I also enjoy reading Mike Hitchen's blog. I find this entertaining but in a different way and he obviously isn't psychic (well I don't think he is ???) LOL

Just because I find someone's writing and opinions interesting, doesn't mean I agree with every word.

[Admin]

I know you'll laugh but I enjoy reading Matt James's blog. Nothing may come of his predictions but at least it gives hope.

I'd be interested to know how you think that psychics (particularly this one) give "hope".

They are of no use whatsoever. If anything they're a hindrance. They waste police time as the police are duty bound to read the tripe they send in (in case one of them is involved somehow ;)).

I'm glad it entertains you though. ::)

[psychicsarah]

I agree with you that many alleged psychic dreams...visions...abstract words etc...do look very delusional....but usually these type of utterances are from those just beginning to hone their gift. Equally they may not actually have much of a gift but they may think they have....this probably gives rise to what you are describing...and actually I would agree TOTALLY with you about psychics if this were the end of it

BUT...you won't find delusional uttterances amongst those who truly have the gift.

There is a nomand's land I believe between feeling that you might have a gift and becoming really accurate with it's use. ie))) it can be developed...

Even then NOT everyone has a gift that could be used professionally.

But many psychics on the ground (who perhaps don't step out into the media) are uncannily brilliant...They attract the people they are meant to help...I believe that is how it works (the psychic on the film The Gift would be this type of psychic)

I find it it incredible that you pass judgement on something you actually know little about...and I am interested in why you are so interested in it if you feel it is all nonsense

I have a feeling you would actually like there to be such a thing ...but you are just looking for the way to prove it

FAir enough...out and out proofs may in time be possible...that remains to be seen

Do more research...learn about what a 'GIFT' actually IS before you pass judgement on it

This is surely about keeping an open mind....

our minds are complex..not everything is logical

and it is absolutely ignorant and stupid to dismiss anything and everything you can't prove as a delusional utterance...


Life is more complex than that and we as humans are more complex, creative and wonderful than that too

[psychicsarah]

I do not think I have the ability to affect events in Portugal

I have been very practical and matter of fact about passing on the information and have followed the correct proceedures...

You are making assumptions about what you think I am about...none of them are true.

I AM being objective..I am NOT personally invested in this ...therefore it makes me objective about it...I am simply acting on the info that I got and I am not concerned about my credibility...I am trying to help find this little girl... don't shoot the messenger..

I am a practical person and have offered practical help in this and as I said we found a place of significance already in the area I described...

I am not concerned about proving it to you..though it could be done...Anyway the threads are a kind of evidence to what I am saying


NB...matt james is not wasting police time ...he is simply posting on his web site...please God he is right on this matter ...re Maddy

***

On the way home from this yesterday I bumped into the local jeweller chatting to the local policeman...we talked about Maddy

I said that I was thinking about phoning the police (to follow up the evidence sent by the local station here in Dublin) and asked him what he thought about the whole thing....(Details of which I won't put up here)

I said why would they listen to me when they have 2 dossiers full of stuff from psychics..?

His reply?

'why wouldn't they...'

There you go....straight from the horses mouth...

[psychicsarah]

I agree with you that many alleged psychic dreams...visions...abstract words etc...do look very delusional....but usually these type of utterances are from those just beginning to hone their gift. Equally they may not actually have much of a gift but they may think they have....this probably gives rise to what you are describing...and actually I would agree TOTALLY with you about psychics if this were the end of it

BUT...you won't find delusional uttterances amongst those who truly have the gift.

There is a nomand's land I believe between feeling that you might have a gift and becoming really accurate with it's use. ie))) it can be developed...

Even then NOT everyone has a gift that could be used professionally.

But many psychics on the ground (who perhaps don't step out into the media) are uncannily brilliant...They attract the people they are meant to help...I believe that is how it works (the psychic on the film The Gift would be this type of psychic)

I find it it incredible that you pass judgement on something you actually know little about...and I am interested in why you are so interested in it if you feel it is all nonsense

I have a feeling you would actually like there to be such a thing ...but you are just looking for the way to prove it

FAir enough...out and out proofs may in time be possible...that remains to be seen

Do more research...learn about what a 'GIFT' actually IS before you pass judgement on it

This is surely about keeping an open mind....

our minds are complex..not everything is logical

and it is absolutely ignorant and stupid to dismiss anything and everything you can't prove as a delusional utterance...


Life is more complex than that and we as humans are more complex, creative and wonderful than that too


John...I do not think I have the ability to affect events in Portugal

I have been very practical and matter of fact about passing on the information and have followed the correct proceedures...

You are making assumptions about what you think I am about...none of them are true.

I AM being objective..I am NOT personally invested in this ...therefore it makes me objective about it...I am simply acting on the info that I got and I am not concerned about my credibility...I am trying to help find this little girl... don't shoot the messenger..

I am a practical person and have offered practical help in this and as I said we found a place of significance already in the area I described...

I am not concerned about proving it to you..though it could be done...Anyway the threads are a kind of evidence to what I am saying


NB...matt james is not wasting police time ...he is simply posting on his web site...please God he is right on this matter ...re Maddy

***

On the way home from this yesterday I bumped into the local jeweller chatting to the local policeman...we talked about Maddy

I said that I was thinking about phoning the police (to follow up the evidence sent by the local station here in Dublin) and asked him what he thought about the whole thing....(Details of which I won't put up here)

I said why would they listen to me when they have 2 dossiers full of stuff from psychics..?

His reply?

'why wouldn't they...'

There you go....straight from the horses mouth...

[psychicsarah]

You haven't yet read of her being found ...because I really don't think they searched after the ex police officer pointed out the site

The local cop dismissed the child's pink top as being 'not what Maddy was wearing'

He asked why they were all in the area and told them off for trying to find her...when he went up to view what they have found he changed his tone and said...'well you could have been just out for a walk'

When this is all over if I feel it is appropriate I will ask the local police here for the information I gave to them and ask if they will give it to you for the sake of your research...

I can't really do more than that I don't think..(But I feel they will do that )

re the Mc Cann's

The family are not open to using psychics which is another reason I took the route I did with this. They are very religious (as AM I) ...but the detectives that came to me made this point and said they may well not listen because of this...

the information went to the police not to the Mc Cann's....They are leaving the police to do their job and can't give anything any attention unless it comes through the correct channels

This is a catch 22 on that front

I admitt I have entered into some amateur sleuthing in the last week...(ONLY)...that is because the case has begun to grab my interest...

[Jocky]

I agree with you that many alleged psychic dreams...visions...abstract words etc...do look very delusional [snip] You won't find delusional uttterances amongst those who truly have the gift
though

How can one tell the difference between "gift" and delusion?


I find it it incredible that you pass judgement on something you actually know little about...

Why do you assert that people here know little about it? Many of us have looked into it extensively. I suspect you assume that because skeptics do not share your belief system, they must therefore be ignorant. This is not the case.


I am interested in why you are so interested in it if you feel it is all nonsense

I have a feeling you would actually like there to be such a thing ...but you are just looking for the way to prove it

What you or I (or anybody else) would or wouldn't like to be true is completely irrelevant. Either psychic powers exist, or they do not - and this is totally unrelated to anybody's subjective belief.


Do more research...learn about what a 'GIFT' actually IS before you pass judgement on it

See my earlier question - how are we supposed to distinguish "gift" from delusion, when they both produce exactly the same results?


This is surely about keeping an open mind....

::) Read this (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php)


it is absolutely ignorant and stupid to dismiss anything and everything you can't prove as a delusional utterance...

Wrong. You do not seem to understand how to study reality, and how to distinguish it from subjective fancies made up inside someone's head.

It is reasonable to proceed on the assumption that something does not exist if there is no evidence for it. There is no evidence at all to support the existence of psychic powers. QED.

If such evidence could be found, it would be a different matter. But so far it has not, despite many people trying very hard to find it.

If you can produce such evidence, or are willing to participate in research to try and generate it, then say so. If you are not willing to do this, you have no right to criticise people for taking a position on the basis of the absence of such evidence.

[psychicsarah]

I do understand

Much of what you say is right...and I agree with it totally

I find myself reading what some people are saying on this matter and going...

'well they're not right on that point'...nor that one....but there is a little bit of something in that point'

I am not saying I am right...but I can only say what I am getting on this

The REALITY is we followed up the info I got and FOUND something out there IN THE PLACE I SAID>>>>


What you don't appreciate is that there IS a way to distinguish between what one's imagination might come up with (and I agree with you I think many people have a vivid imagination) ...and what comes through as a clear message (despite of what one might think, wish and hope for on a subject)

Believe me If I wanted attention on this I could have done SO much press on MADDY IS ALIVE AND WELL and living in luxury in Morrocco

(as I believe a couple of psychics have done)

BUT I would have (In my opinion) been lying and would have been guilty of what you are saying ie) saying something 'nice' for the attention

The irony on this point is that the truth is simple in this matter and

I am telling the TRUTH (as I see it)

[Admin]

Sarah,

You have been given the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and provide your evidence and you have refused to do so.

I suspect that you either have not given any evidence and you're making false claims or if you have given something to the police that it was of no significance whatsoever.

The fact that we have heard nothing about it from the police suggests that I am right.

As for other issues:

The SPR was founded in 1882. In the following 125 years of research they haven't come up with a single robust example of psychic ability. What does that tell us?

I am actually interested in psychics from a psychology point of view. Why is it that people strongly believe they have such abilities (or that others have them) when this ability simply doesn't exist?

Most of the time I'm not actually all that concerned about what psychics do as it's mostly harmless and it even benefits some clients who seem to need guidance to make decisions etc. (those who have an 'external locus of control').

I do draw the line, however, when psychics involve themselves with missing persons and murder cases. Why do they think they have the right to involve themselves with other people's distress?

Have a look at Narcissistic Personality Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder) (particularly the diagnostic criteria) and see how well it matches up the fantasy-prone, egotistical psychics who are using people's misfortune to bolster their own sense of self-importance.

I'd also urge people to read the Voice for the Missing (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/) blog to see what this particular type of psychic really gets up to.

They truly are 'Psychic Predators'.

[psychicsarah]

I do understand

Much of what you say is right...and I agree with it totally

I find myself reading what some people are saying on this matter and going...

'well they're not right on that point'...nor that one....but there is a little bit of something in that point'

I am not saying I am right...but I can only say what I am getting on this

The REALITY is we followed up the info I got and FOUND something out there IN THE PLACE I SAID>>>>


What you don't appreciate is that there IS a way to distinguish between what one's imagination might come up with (and I agree with you I think many people have a vivid imagination) ...and what comes through as a clear message (despite of what one might think, wish and hope for on a subject)

Believe me If I wanted attention on this I could have done SO much press on MADDY IS ALIVE AND WELL and living in luxury in Morrocco

BUT I would have (In my opinion) been lying and would have been guilty of what you are saying ie) saying something 'nice' for the attention

The irony on this point is that the truth is simple in this matter and

I am telling the TRUTH (as I see it)

[psychicsarah]

No I haven't refused...I have offered to get the info from the local police here in Dublin for you AFTER she is found

John.....please STOP projecting psychological disorders onto me...I am from a medical family...and I have studied psychology...I happen to know I am perfectly within a norm (whatever that means) thankyou very much

I am not in the least bit narcissistic....STOP projecting....

I do understand

Much of what you say is right...and I agree with it totally

I find myself reading what some people are saying on this matter and going...

'well they're not right on that point'...nor that one....but there is a little bit of something in that point'

I am not saying I am right...but I can only say what I am getting on this

The REALITY is we followed up the info I got and FOUND something out there IN THE PLACE I SAID>>>>


What you don't appreciate is that there IS a way to distinguish between what one's imagination might come up with (and I agree with you I think many people have a vivid imagination) ...and what comes through as a clear message (despite of what one might think, wish and hope for on a subject)

Believe me If I wanted attention on this I could have done SO much press on MADDY IS ALIVE AND WELL and living in luxury in Morrocco

BUT I would have (In my opinion) been lying and would have been guilty of what you are saying ie) saying something 'nice' for the attention

The irony on this point is that the truth is simple in this matter and

I am telling the TRUTH (as I see it)

[Jocky]

What you don't appreciate is that there IS a way to distinguish between what one's imagination might come up with (and I agree with you I think many people have a vivid imagination) ...and what comes through as a clear message (despite of what one might think, wish and hope for on a subject) ... I am telling the TRUTH (as I see it)

I do not doubt that you are telling subjective truth. I dispute the relationship you claim between your thoughts and physical reality.

What exactly is the way to distinguish between "imagination" and "a clear message"?

[Jocky]

Please STOP projecting psychological disorders onto me

Huh? ???

Don't take it personally Sarah, it's only a chat on a forum!

[psychicsarah]

Yes I know...that is difficult to explain...I will try to think of a way to do that

But you have pin pointed the very thing that needs to be established if The Gift or sixth sense is to be proven (perhaps it never will be proven...)

I will think about it for you


Yes I am telling the subjective truth on this matter...and I can only describe it as it has happened after all...

Thanks J... you're a good sort!

[vbloke]

No I haven't refused...I have offered to get the info from the local police here in Dublin for you AFTER she is found
Then can you provide the local police force address, so that we can enquire with them ourselves?


The REALITY is we followed up the info I got and FOUND something out there IN THE PLACE I SAID>>>>
I can walk down the street or in an isolated area anywhere in almost any country and find something. It's what you read into that object that turns it from "I found something" to "this is significant". The fact that you found something, when you steadfastly refuse to produce evidence, means that we can discount it as another fantasy - "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

[psychicsarah]

Absolutely I will....

yes I see what you are saying re finding something 'of significance'

But it is odd that I described (from Dublin) the EXACT local of a place (in Portugal) that looked as if it had seen some very dubious activity...

very near to the place of the Dutch tip off...

[Jocky]

you have pin pointed the very thing that needs to be established if The Gift or sixth sense is to be proven (perhaps it never will be proven...)

I will think about it for you

Exactly - that is why I ask. It is the crux of the matter.

I remain skeptical of the existence of psychic powers until their existence can be supported by credible evidence. And in order to find such evidence we first have to know what we are testing for. Please let me know if you come up with a meaningful definition of the "gift".

[psychicsarah]

Well I think there are 101 definitions of The Gift

I need to find a way to describe it to you...

whether it can be proven or not I don't know....just as you can't prove you love your wife, daughter, brother..

I am not yet sure I can PROVE the gift exists....

(though I have done lots of TV and radio where I have been under test type conditions...ie what record am I going to play next?....who is going to be in the band out of final 32 contestants? ....who is going to win the Irish Election ....yadda yadda ....

I got them all RIGHT incidentally (and no I haven't got anything of that nature wrong) ....BUT perhaps it is just incidental and coincidental from the skeptics point of view)


Will ponder your question...

[Admin]

John.....please STOP projecting psychological disorders onto me

It's not specifically at you, it's at you and all the other 'psychics' who've involved themselves in this case.

A lot of people read this thread and I think it would be useful for them to consider the point seriously. i.e. what is really the motivation behind 'psychics' involving themselves with this case so publicly?

As I've pointed out previously, I do not accept that self-proclaimed psychics who post under their own name, linking to their own website, on several public forums/blogs are doing it for any reason other than for self-serving ones.

[Jocky]

Well I think there are 101 definitions of The Gift

I need to find a way to describe it to you...

Notice that I said "meaningful definition", BTW. That means I'm not after a woolly metaphor - I'm looking for something concrete and ultimately falsifiable. If it is not falsifiable, it's meangingless.

From your descriptions of things you believe you can do and have done, it sounds to me as if your "gift" could be given a falsifiable definition. This is good.


I am not yet sure I can PROVE the gift exists....

Let's explore it and find out, then.


I have done lots of TV and radio where I have been under test type conditions [snip] perhaps it is just incidental and coincidental from the skeptics point of view

If you could reproduce such abilities a statistically significant number of times under controlled conditions, it is not incidental and is extremely unlikely to be coincidental. If.

[Dr B]

Dear self-claimed-psychic-Sarah

I have some magic beans for sale. Please send £2000 to the UKS charity and I will send them to you. Now, when they arrive they may look, appear, and smell like jelly bean sweets......but keep an open mind on their magic potential.

Plant them in a garden and wait for them to grow. Of course, you will only see the beanstalk if you keep an open mind......

:eek3:

I also have a pet unicorn for sale.....though to the closed-minded it looks like a dog...

[Julia]

OMG, I've always wanted a pet unicorn! The fact that it looks like a dog doesn't bother me at all - if you say it's a unicorn and I believe it's a unicorn that's good enough for me!

How much are you asking, and would you consider payment in fairy gold? :cheesy:

[vbloke]

Absolutely I will....well then..?


yes I see what you are saying re finding something 'of significance'exactly - no evidence, no sale.


But it is odd that I described (from Dublin) the EXACT local of a place (in Portugal) that looked as if it had seen some very dubious activity...

very near to the place of the Dutch tip off...
not really, having been to Portugal many times, I can tell you that a lot of the countryside there looks the same. It's be harder to find one part of the Portuguese countryside that looks unique. You can retrofit this information easily, once the event has passed, if nobody saw your original tip off.

I could, if I wanted, reel off a list of places in Portugal that would undoubtly look identical to the place you claim to have found something.

[Dr B]

Hi Julia

My bank manager does not have an open-mind so hard cash is all i can accept.......;D;D

I will put a stamp on the unicorn's head and ram it in the post to you...

[Matt]

Sarah,

If you have information which could be used to verify the value of Psychics but are temporarily unable to make it public then let's not waste the opportunity.

I suggest that you write the information down, seal it in an envelope and send it by recorded delivery to a mutually trusted third party. Put the recorded delivery sticker over the envelope flap so that it cannot be tampered with.

At a time that you specify e.g. after conclusion of a court case, or whenever your temporary reasons for keeping the information sealed have expired then the envelope can be opened in front of neutral witnesses.

[happyanne]

Sarah, didn't you find a child's pink top? is this the item of significance or are you referring to something else????

[Bat E Bird]

The local cop dismissed the child's pink top as being 'not what Maddy was wearing'


Sarah, where did you get the information about a pink top? Is this what you 'feel' or is it a fact?

It's just that I've read that they found a towel during their search but this is the first time I've heard about another item. I've enquired on the other forum I follow, which contains details of all newspaper reports, and no-one else has heard anything either.

Thanks :smiley:

[Admin]

I think I saw Sarah refer to some pyjamas at one point.

I'm not sure if they're meant to be what's significant.

Sarah refuses to say anyway so I'll guess we'll only find out after the event - as usual.

[psychicsarah]

Okay thanks for that John...I just don't think it is helpful to dismiss ALL psychics as delusional though

There really IS such a thing as the GIft...and it remains to be seen if we can perhaps amass evidence enough to prove this...

I would just prefer not to do it re this case (It would be bad taste for me to fix you up with the police on this matter until AFTER she is found and again after a respectful length of time...I hope you can understand that...they would still have their dated records )

I agree a few psychics have come forward publically re Maddy....not many though...more though will have sent their info to the portuguese police...as this is normally the done thing...ie send any insights direct to the police rather than go public...

I explained the reasons why in this case I did take this approach...

(to do with the Mc cann's themselves and to do with the Portuguese secrecy laws and proceedures etc...and especially to do with the fact that they had already dismissed the Dutch tip off as a hoax...I would LOVE to know why they did that so quickly...)

Yes a child's pink top was found (and some tissues and other sundry items indicating sexual activity...)

The cop apparently dismissed the top as 'not Maddy's which I do feel was the correct assumption...as I said to the ex police officer who found the place...it does not inevitably link to Maddy (what was found)...I do not actually think it does...and I said this

What I DO feel though is that she IS to be found in the area...this place I am describing DOES exist...indeed as I mention in the article (aka waffle) we have found it...

I am at least glad to have found such a place and informed the police..but you would have thought that this would get them thinking

'let's ground search again'

But no ...I don't think it has as yet had that effect...

Incidentally this is a very remote place...one where you would not just happen upon something...(V bloke)

In fact it is a place with such a hideous ambience that I don't even think the innocent rambler would frequent it

So we found a very specific scene if you like in a very remote location which fits the description I had posted up...

It haunts me that the ex police officer may only have been within 10 feet of Maddy...

PLease God MAddy IS still alive ...but I can't dismiss what has happened thus far and still feel that it looks good for her to be found alive and thriving...


As I have said all along I sincerely hope I am WRONG....

[psychicsarah]

Okay thanks for that John...I just don't think it is helpful to dismiss ALL psychics as delusional


There really IS such a thing as the GIft...and it remains to be seen if we can perhaps amass evidence enough to prove this...

I would just prefer not to do it re this case (It would be bad taste for me to fix you up with the police on this matter until AFTER she is found and again after a respectful length of time...I hope you can understand that...they would still have their dated records )

I agree a few psychics have come forward publically re Maddy....not many though...more though will have sent their info to the portuguese police...as this is normally the done thing...ie send any insights direct to the police rather than go public...

I explained the reasons why in this case I did take this approach...

(to do with the Mc cann's themselves and to do with the Portuguese secrecy laws and proceedures etc...and especially to do with the fact that they had already dismissed the Dutch tip off as a hoax...I would LOVE to know why they did that so quickly...)

Yes a child's pink top was found (and some tissues and other sundry items indicating sexual activity...)

The cop apparently dismissed the top as 'not Maddy's which I do feel was the correct assumption...as I said to the ex police officer who found the place...it does not inevitably link to Maddy (what was found)...I do not actually think it does...and I said this

What I DO feel though is that she IS to be found in the area...this place I am describing DOES exist...indeed as I mention in the article (aka waffle) we have found it...

I am at least glad to have found such a place and informed the police..but you would have thought that this would get them thinking

'let's ground search again'

But no ...I don't think it has as yet had that effect...

Incidentally this is a very remote place...where you would NOT just happen upon something...V BLOKE?...believe me you wouldn't be in a place like this on a daily / random basis...

In fact it is a place with such a hideous ambience that I don't even think the innocent rambler would frequent it

So we found a very specific scene if you like in a very remote location which fits the description I had posted up...

It haunts me that the ex police officer may only have been within 10 feet of Maddy...(she stopped searching when she made the significant find and I didn't hear about it all until they got back home...THAT was frustrating as I would have got them to search in and around the derelict house and along the broken wall...)


PLease God MAddy IS still alive ...but I can't dismiss what has happened thus far and still feel that it looks good for her to be found alive and thriving...


As I have said all along I sincerely hope I am WRONG....



Matt yes I could do that...I will write up a report of what has happend thus far...and of what else I picked up...I can not been more open on here.....

Yes we found a child's pink top (see above)

Yes they found a towel in the search re the Dutch tip off....

But you know what I think re that?

It was possibly planted by reporters who (RIGHTLY) wanted the tip off to be taken seriously and the police sussed this and stopped the search...because again I do not feel that the towel links to Maddy

This seriously backfired and is probably why they dismissed it ALL as a cruel hoax...when the irony is it really was NOT a hoax...

The Hoax was (perhaps) the towel NOT the tip off...

[psychicsarah]

Matt there won't be a court case re this case unless they cook up some evidence...this person left no trace...


BUT they will find Maddy

I wish I could say exactly when but it won't be too long now...


NB...BATT E BIRD...my opinions haven't changed over the weeks ...they have developed. But I have been pretty consistent

[psychicsarah]

v bloke...I am NOT pathetic...It is not my place to go out to find Maddy.. that is what the PJ are there for

(in fact I gather they are arresting people who are out there sniffing around with reporters...etc)

Indeed for reasons I won't go into I could NOT go...Believe me if I could have gone I would have gone....(then you would have accused me of something else no doubt...)

As I said previously if I were simply being ingenuine about this and looking for attention I could have done numerous articles in the press re Maddy being alive and well and living in morrocco with a rich Arab family .... as I said, to me that does not feel like the truth though I sincerely hope it iS...

I had to try to help and this was the only way I could think of to do it...It is precisely the reason I took this route...the fact that I could not personally go out there

I posted...KNOWING that someone who could go would get in touch and go and check out the clues...

we then found what we found


And the reason that I ressumed posting after the site was found? ...

for the same reasons I began in the first place... because I did not hear from the people who found the site re the contact details of the PJ and the name of the nearby village...(only they know exactly where the site is...though I am confident that I could find it again independently)

I am phoning the police on saturday (got the details 2 days ago) ... I will then see if they want the ex police officer to go out to them again...and identitfy the place (AGAIN)...if they feel it is a significant find...

I guess I have done more than you have...right?

And no I am NOT ashamed of myself...NOR am I proud of myself...I am OBJECTIVE about this and I have simply been doing what I was meant to do to help

John...If you are unhappy with this information being up ... Do please remove the thread...until which time I will check in from time to time to explain myself if that is alright with you...

[vbloke]

v bloke...I am NOT pathetic...It is not my place to go out to find Maddy.. that is what the PJ are there for

(in fact I gather they are arresting people who are out there sniffing around with reporters...etc)It's not your place to go and find her, it's the police's job and they are not helped by every self-proclaimed psychic in the western world bombarding them with conflicting information.

Of course they'll arrest anyone who's snooping around - it's called contaminating the crime scene and is illegal.


Indeed for reasons I won't go into I could NOT go...Believe me if I could have gone I would have gone....(then you would have accused me of something else no doubt...)

This is precisely the reason I took this route...the fact that I could not personally go out thereSo you won't go out there for reasons you won't say. Even if I offered to pay for you to go out there, you wouldn't? I'd personally enjoy seeing you out there, with a skeptic in tow, trying to pull the wool over their eyes. You wouldn't find it as easy as the "faithful", I can tell you.


It is why I posted...KNOWING that someone who could go would get in touch and go and check out the clues...

we then found what we foundYou posted knowing that it would get you attention by attaching your name to a high profile case.

This happens every time a case like this makes the news. Why aren't you out searching for the thousands of children who go missing every year but never make the news? If you're really in it for the children, then you'd hunt for them to - why aren't you?



And the reason that I ressumed posting after the site was found? ...

for the same reasons I began in the first place... because I did not hear from the people who found the site re the contact details of the PJ and the name of the nearby village...(only they know exactly where the site is...though I am confident that I could find it again independently)Because you could retrofit a vague description into something does not mean that you are at all accurate. I would wager that you would not be able to find the same site again without directions from the person who originally went there.


I am phoning the police on saturday (got the details 2 days ago) ... I will then see if they want the ex police officer to go out to them again...and identitfy the place (AGAIN)...if they feel it is a significant find...Why would they want an ex police officer to do their work for them? This makes no sense. I can guarantee you that they will not consider anything you have to say particularly significant. They will have their own lines of enquiry and will not be impressed by vague descriptions and dreams.


I guess I have done more than you have...right?I have done the more than you, in that I have not wasted police time, thus freeing them up to do actual police work. Like I said, what have you done for the thousands of missing children who go unreported? Nothing, because they do not make the news.


And no I am NOT ashamed of myself...NOR am I proud of myself...I am OBJECTIVE about this and I have simply been doing what I was meant to do to helpAnd how do you measure what you were meant to do against?

So far, you have claimed you have all this amazing evidence, but decline to show it - therefore, I can confidently assert that you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, apart from your vague meanderings (that are so open, you could retrofit them to almost anything).

Therefore, despite your grand protestations, you have contributed nothing to this case, apart from wasting police time, persuading an ex police officer to crawl around a field in Portugal (who found "something" that you won't share with us) and shamelessly promote yourself ("I'm not in it for me, it's for her" - if that was the case, why not do it anonymously? Why flood as many forums as possible with your dreams?).

And as for your assertation that there is a "gift", as you call it, there has been decades worth of research into the paranormal - the US military spent 30 years looking it, parapsychologists and the like have spent lifetimes researching it and so far, the total sum of all that collected research is...

Nothing.

[happyanne]

Sarah, today is the 26th. Isn't today the day you said she would be found or that there would be major breaking news?

[Dr B]

Okay thanks for that John...I just don't think it is helpful to dismiss ALL psychics as delusional though

It's not dismissing anything if it can be shown to be true O0 It's known as an explanation and it leads to knowledge and understanding.

If i show a self-claimed psychic has delusional thought processes, and provide evidence for it - it is not dismissing anything - it is supporting the most reasonable conclusion. 8)

Is it helpful to entertain ideas that are clearly untrue? If so, how and why?

[happyanne]

It's not dismissing anything if it can be shown to be true O0 It's known as an explanation and it leads to knowledge and understanding.

If i show a self-claimed psychic has delusional thought processes, and provide evidence for it - it is not dismissing anything - it is supporting the most reasonable conclusion. 8)

Is it helpful to entertain ideas that are clearly untrue? If so, how and why?

Now, now Dr B, I think you quoted Sarah as saying it was wrong to dismiss all psychics as delusional. I'm afraid you'll have to settle for some of the psychics, some of the time or even some of the psychics, all of the time but never all of the psychics, all of the time.
Even if you work on the premise that psychic ability doesn't exist at all self-proclaimed psychics would not all be delusional, far from it. Deluding maybe.>:D

[Dr B]

No

I mean delusional in the clinical sense of the term. Have you read the DSMv4?

Statistically speaking self-claimed psychics (not the frauds / charletons) who truly believe in their abilities and all the woo woo that goes with it are demonstrably delusional in that sense - irrational thought processes.

Therefore - this can be generalised and hold as a framework for all self-claimed psychics. You need to find someone who fits the criteria, yet displays no response biases, irrational beliefs etc. This is a misnomer....as believing you are psychic and have psychic powers is itself indicative of a serious deviation from reality.

To believe in psychic powers is functionally the same as believing in the tooth fairy (though the psychology is fascinating).

[Dr B]

Now, now Dr B, I think you quoted Sarah as saying it was wrong to dismiss all psychics as delusional.

I said it is not dismissing anything if it turns out to be true. It then becomes an explanation. The 'dismiss' card gets played all the time by psychics - its a value judgement and fails to understand what is going on.


I'm afraid you'll have to settle for some of the psychics, some of the time or even some of the psychics, all of the time but never all of the psychics, all of the time.

But i have yet to see evidence of self-claimant woo woo who do not display illogical, irrational thought processes that also display signs of delusion. The magnitude may vary from person to person - but for those that truly believe - it has been shown to be there.

Indeed, some work (Brugger etc) shows that psychics are indistinguishable from schizophrenics on many thought-disorder scales. This is scientific evidence and not a value judgement.

As such, my assessment of this situation appears to be based in fact.

[Dr B]

One other thing. The delusional thought processes that many psychics display does not mean they are ill, have a pathology, are on drugs, etc. It is completely separate.

All it means is that, the contents of the thoughts, from those who display such irrational thought processes, are wrong (or highly unlikely to be correct).

[happyanne]

But i have yet to see evidence of self-claimant woo woo who do not display illogical, irrational thought processes that also display signs of delusion. The magnitude may vary from person to person - but for those that truly believe - it has been shown to be there.


Why would being logical and rational add any weight to the argument?
surely being logical and rational would work directly against them being instinctive and intuitive?

[Dr B]

Why would being logical and rational add any weight to the argument? surely being logical and rational would work directly against them being instinctive and intuitive?

Nonsense. - if you are not rational you are more prone to entertain fanciful ideas which are not endowed with the capacity to be true. In addtion, you are less likely to spot this.

I often get really frustrated with all this 'fluffy' intuitive nonsense as if scientists dont use it either.......

Scientists and engineers are some of the most intuitive and creative people i know. I think you view is based in a fluffy view of intuition.

[Dr B]

The point is, extreme psychic belief is associated with irrational thinking. Some argue this is not a coincidence. Others that one (a predisposition to reason irrationally) causes the other (psychic belief).

What do you think? Do you think this research is incorrect? If so, why and on what grounds?

[Matt]

Matt there won't be a court case re this case unless they cook up some evidence...this person left no trace...


That sounds like a falsifiable prediction. Is it a psychic prediction? Are you prepared to stand by it? If there is a court case based upon evidence that clearly hasn't been cooked up what would that mean to you?

[Dr B]

Hiya self-claimed psychic-sarah.


Okay thanks for that John...I just don't think it is helpful to dismiss ALL psychics as delusional


I dont think offering alternative, well researched and well validated explanations is dismissing anything. You are making a logical fallacy here (I have pointed this out elsewhere). You see - it could well be true and there is evidence suggesting it is. John has offered alternative explanations through argumentation - this is not dismissing anything.

The psychics that do not display irrational thought processes are most likely to be charletons and frauds - so you are quite right in that sense that not all are delusional. However, if the implication is that some are 'genuine' then the evidence suggests you are clearly mistaken.



There really IS such a thing as the GIft...and it remains to be seen if we can perhaps amass evidence enough to prove this...

Enough evidence or any at all? I put it to you that there is no positive evidence for psychic ability and as such, there is no reason to currently accept it. This does not mean (logically speaking) that it cannot be true - but as there is no evidence for it, and a wealth of evidence for more plausible alternative accounts - it makes it extremely unlikely to be true. in other words it is the least likely and least plausible possibility.



So we found a very specific scene if you like in a very remote location which fits the description I had posted up...


You never gave anything that would qualify as a description...

[Cuddles]

surely being logical and rational would work directly against them being instinctive and intuitive?

The opposite of "logical" and "rational" are not "instinctive" and "intuitive", they are "illogical" and "irrational". By saying that they are not logical and rational you are, by definition, saying they are illogical and irrational. That is not generally considered a good thing.

[Araneus]

That is probably one of the most revealing sentiments expressed by a psychic supporter that I have heard to date.

To say that something is not rational is to say that it does not make sense. That psychics would explicitly accept this as part of their worldview says a lot about their understanding of reality.

[happyanne]

The opposite of "logical" and "rational" are not "instinctive" and "intuitive", they are "illogical" and "irrational". By saying that they are not logical and rational you are, by definition, saying they are illogical and irrational. That is not generally considered a good thing.

I never claimed that they were antonyms.
INTUITION: 1) Knowledge or belief obtained by neither reason nor perception

2) Instinctive knowlege or belief.

3) Hunch or unjustified belief.

To moot a point does not make you a supporter of it.::)

[Cuddles]

I never claimed that they were antonyms.
INTUITION: 1) Knowledge or belief obtained by neither reason nor perception

2) Instinctive knowlege or belief.

3) Hunch or unjustified belief.

To moot a point does not make you a supporter of it.::)

You said:

surely being logical and rational would work directly against them being instinctive and intuitive?

There's no point rolling your eyes when your own words are clear for everyone to see just a couple of lines ups. If you don't mean what you say, don't say it. If you do mean what you say then don't pretend you meant something else when it is challenged.

As Araneus points out, by saying that "psychics" are intuitive and that this means they can't be rational you are saying that they are in fact irrational. This wouldn't be considered an argument in their favour by most people.

[happyanne]

You said:


There's no point rolling your eyes when your own words are clear for everyone to see just a couple of lines ups. If you don't mean what you say, don't say it. If you do mean what you say then don't pretend you meant something else when it is challenged.

As Araneus points out, by saying that "psychics" are intuitive and that this means they can't be rational you are saying that they are in fact irrational. This wouldn't be considered an argument in their favour by most people.

Look again. I said it would work against them not that they were antonyms. This is why I have given the dictionary definitions of 'intuition'.

If you are concentrating on using a skill that requires the use of no reason it would be irrational to try to apply logic. That's for others to do
by studying the effects.

[psychicsarah]

dr b...love the pic....I imagine you look a bit like that, right?

as for the 'woo woo factor'...that is pure projection...which stems from perhaps a lack of understanding of what psychic ability actually is

As far as I am concerned there is no 'woo woo factor'...

this ability is just a normal thing and part of everyday life..

you would be surprised how many psychics are matter of fact, grounded and objective...and well able to analyse their thought processes if needs be...ie)

NOT delusional...nor deluding...

Yes I mentioned the 26th July as a 'breakthrough day'...because it completes an important Uranus cycle which links back to the night of the crime...the 84th day...

I guess we are not privvy to this breakthrough as yet but it seems to link to the weak evidence and contradictions in Murat's statements...

As for Maddy being found she WILL be....

I can't though to be honest as yet get a definite date on this...I am drawing a blank ... will let you know if I do...

I am now getting the impression that this could drift and this makes sense on where I believe her to be....ie no one is searching there so she won't as yet be found...

I believe she will be happened upon by someone going about their business...

mid August is significant....

I have always felt that the deadline the Mc Cann's have given themselves on their stay in Portugal is very significant...ie) we will have all the answers when the head back to the UK in September...

This is when they will return to the uk...so there in is probably the timing...

This whole thing will unravel very dramatically over the next 3 and 4 weeks and get very messy indeed...(especially so after she is found)

[psychicsarah]

If I never gave anything that qualified as a description then how come the ex police officer found the place?

V bloke you asked me why I wasn't out there trying to find her...I told you I couldn't and that it wasn't my place to do so

I have handled this through the correct channels and indeed I would not have worked with the person who got in touch (through the posts) if they had not been an ex police officer (ie someone who knew about NOT contaminating a crime scene). I felt that I would only work with a journalist or a police officer on this...no one else.

Where she is, is not the crime scene anyhow....it is where she is...

The place I am describing EXISTS...there are aspects of the place description at the top of the article (aka waffle)

Yes I could find it I am sure on my own...If I found it 'via text' to the police officer I am sure I could find it if I were actually there...

anyway the local police know where it is now...

How do you know I am not helping find other missing kids...and helping people in many ways that you are not privvy to...?

Are you psychic or do you think you are ???!!!! You're wrong anyhow...

NO I won't explain why I couldn't go there myself...

My reasons for posting were EXACTLY as I say they were

In fact if I am proven to be right with all of this I will not be doing any interviews on the matter nor will I refer to it at a later date if asked....

My purpose was to help find Maddy....



NB...

I mentioned the 26th July as a 'breakthrough day'...because it completes a important Uranus cycle which links back to the night of the crime...the 84th day...I guess we are not as yet privvy to this breakthrough as yet but it seems to link to the weak evidence and contradictions in Murat's statements...

As for Maddy being found she WILL be....

I believe she will be happened upon by someone going about their business...

[Admin]

dr b...love the pic....I imagine you look a bit like that, right?

Erm... that is Dr B. ;D

So no breakthrough on the 'breakthrough day' then. ;)

The rest is just vague waffle.

I hope you're going to admit that you were wrong if absolutely nothing comes of the insights that you've failed to provide don't come true.

[psychicsarah]

yes there has been a breakthrough on breakthrough day....it is to do with Murat's evidence...(see Daily Express today..)

I never said we would be privvy to the breakthrough...on the exact day...

this was not a psychic prediction it was based on the Uranus 84 day cycle and I made that clear...in astrology this 84 day cycle is significant regarding such a crime...and it makes sense that Murat's evidence is looking shaky (or that they are making it look so) on this day...

I am not wrong John....

THEY HAVE ALREADY FOUND THE PLACE I DESCRIBED as I have told you endlessly....I have never been to Portugal in my life and I described this place and helped find it...what about that don't you understand???

I said I am happy to have reported (directly or indirectly) such a place...

[Admin]

Okay thanks for that John...I just don't think it is helpful to dismiss ALL psychics as delusional

I didn't say that ALL psychics are delusional. ;)

There's a lot of debate going on about whether people who think they are psychic are either mentally ill or have personality disorders. There's good evidence that people who are classified as schizophrenic, for example, experience the same kind of hallucinations as some 'psychics' claim they do. That doesn't mean that anyone who thinks they have psychic ability is mentally ill however, as it's also known that 'normal' people can occasionally experience such anomalous experiences.

What has interested me with Madeleine's case is the personality type that the 'psychics' exhibit who are trying to use it to make a name for themselves. I think there's a lot of good qualitative data available from the various psychics to illustrate that they're displaying several attributes of delusion, narcissism, egotism, denial, as well as the usual display of irrational thinking and confirmation bias we usually see.

What I'm saying is that the 'psychics' who are so attracted by high-profile cases like murder and missing children are motivated in a fundamentally different way to other people who believe they have psychic abilities.

I don't believe that psychic powers are real but I'm not overly concerned about your average Tarot readers etc. as most of it is entertainment and some of their clients may even benefit from getting readings.

What I am concerned about is what we term 'psychic predators'. These people specifically target high-profile emotive cases that get a lot of publicity. You don't find them 'helping the police' with income tax evasion or car thefts. No, it's the headlines they're after.

One of the worst aspects is that such people seem to lack a conscience (empathy) and have no qualms about wading in, even when they know they are not wanted. They have the pig-headedness to know they're right and so are impervious to any criticism and feel no need to justify their actions.

That is definitely not the behaviour we would expect to see from an average person. It's more indicative of a self-obsessed fantasy-prone personality.

No, the Psychic Predator is not a typical psychic; and I'm sure most other people who believe they are psychic are just as disgusted by psychic predators as everyone else is.

[Admin]

That's the breakthrough then? Something has been written in a tabloid about this case. ::)

God, you psychics are amazing.

[vbloke]

What's the 84 day cycle of Uranus?

The only 84 I know of with respect to Uranus is the length of it's orbit, which is 84 years.

[vbloke]

Why is it then, that you can find a piece of land where "something" has been left, but not Madeline herself?

If you can give specific directions to a third party to follow that you also claim that you can follow yourself to the exact same location, then why not use your "gift" to find her?

If you're truly psychic, you should be able to pick up on a living (or dead) human presence, why then can you only seem to pick up on random locations and other minutiae that already has appeared in newspapers?

I have had dealings with a few self-proclaimed psychics in the past and all of them can quite happily read your mind (or claim to via cold reading) and tell you things that happened in your past, present and future, but can't find the exact location of a missing person.

I remain utterly unconvinced in any of your abilities and your endless excuses for not providing even one shred of evidence apart from rambling posts about locations that could, quite frankly, be almost anywhere in Portugal.

[Admin]

What do you know? You're only an astronomy lecturer - you don't have 'the gift'. ;D

[happyanne]

The psychics that do not display irrational thought processes are most likely to be charletons and frauds - so you are quite right in that sense that not all are delusional. However, if the implication is that some are 'genuine' then the evidence suggests you are clearly mistaken.

Thankyou doctor B! you've made my day;)

[vbloke]

I forget - it's not like knowing anything about the planets and their characteristics would be any use in astronomy, would it?

Even astrology (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=zodiacal_astrology.php) has roots in astronomy, but I doubt that knowing anything about how the planets move through the sky (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=astrology_and_precession.php) means anything in today's world.

[tolman]

Psychicsarah does seem to get around a bit on the net, and does play pretty fast and loose with her predictions.
First the body is buried, then it isn't.
It's in a wooded area, or then maybe scrubland, or a quarry.
It's 2-4 miles away, but then that magically becomes 10-20km, explained as a mistake over mapreading just at the point of the Dutch [hoax?] letter. Then it's 7-9km (or maybe 7-9 *miles*), or a 20 minute drive, or a 10 minute drive followed by a bit more.
Seemingly forgetting the earlier mapreading excuse, the 2-4 miles gets reinstated as a possibility, but initially as 2-4 miles from some ill-described arbitrary point, rather than the place of abduction, then maybe it's related to the abduction point after all.

And this is someone supposedly in touch with a spirit world?
A spirit world seemingly filled with people who are basically clueless or perversely and cruelly unhelpful, and that's not even beginning to cover the stuff the spirits are supposedly telling all the other self-styled psychics.

[Admin]

this was not a psychic prediction it was based on the Uranus 84 day cycle and I made that clear...in astrology this 84 day cycle is significant regarding such a crime...

Well, I think that you're going to have to explain exactly what this Uranus 84-day-cycle actually is now that we've had an astronomy lecturer state that the only 84 something cycle is the 84-year-orbit around the sun it has.

Of course, we skeptics "talk about things we don't understand" right? Well, now's your chance to to put us right and explain to the readers of this thread why we were wrong. ;)

You can also tell us how it's "significant regarding such a crime."

[vbloke]

Just for further information on Uranus.

Uranus was discovered by William Herschel on March 13, 1781. It orbits the sun at an average distance of 2,900,000,000 km, it has 27 known satellites (Cordelia, Ophelia, Bianca, Cressida, Desdemona, Juliet, Portia, Rosalind, Cupid , Belinda, Perdita, Puck, Mab, Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon, Francisco , Caliban, Stephano, Trinculo, Sycorax, Margaret, Prospero, Setebos and Ferdinand) and 13 known rings; an equatorial radius of 25,559 km (4.007 Earths); it's day lasts −0.718 33 Earth days (17 h 14 min 24 s) and it rotates at 2.59 km/s or 9320 km/h. Uranus is also tilted at 97 degrees from horizontal (meaning that it's pole points towards the sun and it's equator goes around the top and bottom). And , of course, it takes roughly 84 years to complete one orbit.

So I'd be very interested to know where the 84 day cycle fits into this.

And why only Uranus? Why not Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, Eris, Mars, Vesta, Apollo, Venus, Mercury, Ceres, Sedna, Quaoar, Chiron, Qrcus, Varuna or Ixion?

That's not to mention the literally millions of asteroids, moons, dwarf planets, plutinos, kuiper belt objects, oort cloud objects, centaurs, trojans, vulcanoids, damocloids and comets. The solar system is a cluttered place.

How about the exoplanets? There are currently 248 (although this number will be out of date in a few days) known exoplanets out there. Why don't any of them have any bearing on this case?

Oh, and have a read of those two articles I linked to. They contain some useful information on astrology. Then get back to me about this supposed astrological significance and how you worked it out, I'd be very interested to hear it.

[psychicsarah]

The 84 is a number linking to Uranus...yes of course the 84 yearly cycle is the main point but as a pattern of movement the 84 has a link I believe after a crime like this ... especially with Uranus currently in Pisces...and Neptune in Aquarius ...which astrologers would interpret energetically...and the link with the astrology of the night and Maddy's and Murat's charts is fascinating (and scary)

Current placings make an interesting link in Murat's chart as I pointed out earlier...(but deleted cos I thought no one was interested)

The Uranus action ....northern node action and Full moon action on that night..plus the Neptune in Aquarius and Uranus in PIsces thing make for a potent mix in the link between Maddy and Murat on that night....

it is an intuitive point really... and perhaps a numerology one too

interesting an astronomer on line .... O0


As for the Daily Express...It is now the only paper covering the case it seems...I agree though on the gist of recent articles...many inconsistency's in evidence etc...

Interesting though...I don't think we are really privy to the impact of the breakthrough yet

Oh..I phoned them...again interesting but I better not say what I picked up... They now have a fax with all the details again...

[psychicsarah]

I don't think some of you can read....

You know why I came onto the net re this...do you want the list again???

It was because of...the Mc Cann's...the Portuguese system...and that I knew someone would read it and go out and find the place...

I am not playing fast and loose with anything...the reasons the info was elsewhere on the net are the same as above...

I couldn't personally go to Portugal....someone contacted me because of what I had posted as I knew they would...

I down played the 'buried' aspect (on mirror forum) and changed it to CONCEALED...because I was trying to down play this aspect of the situation...But if you look in the Oxford dictionary they mean the same thing...something can be called 'buried' but not be 6 feet under the earth...that was why I changed it to concealed... buried is concealed and concealed is buried...different words for the same thing

I explained that the police officer stopped searching when they found what they found....and reported it

JOHN you're projecting again....I am NOT doing this for attention on the net...I would be delighted if now the info has been passed on if it would all be merrily deleted....I took a controversial step to try to help find this little girl...it does NOT mean I am delusional or that I am looking for attention


as I said I won't do ANY publicity on this matter

How many times does one have to make the same point on here...????

I am certainly NOT a predator......

I don't know what psychics you are on about re this case? ...I don't think anyone is doing what you think they are doing re this case

You seem to find it impossible to get your head around the fact that people simply want to help...in whatever way feels right to them..

It is a free world...we do what we do....and GOD is our judge...not the septics...

[psychicsarah]

Oh I phoned and faxed the portuguese police yesterday which was revealing and interesting..

my last word on this matter...

chow...

V bloke....WE FOUND THE SITE.....how is it then just about anywhere in portugal...????

I really don't think you're listening....never mind...

I've done what I can .... END OF....

[vbloke]

Who is WE?

Where is the site?

What is so significant about it?

Can you describe it so accurately that a total stranger could find it?

Sorry, absolutely no evidence yet again, so I don't believe a word you're saying.

[vbloke]

You seriously need to check your facts.

Currently, Uranus is sat in Aquarius and Neptune is in Capricorn. Both of these planets, thanks to their long orbits will remain in those constellations for quite some time (and have been in them for quite some time too). In fact, they have both been in the constellations I've mentioned since January 2003 (when Uranus moved from Capricorn to Aquarius) and will remain in them until May 2009 (when Uranus moves into Pisces, Neptune will eventually move into Aquarius in May 2010 - it has been in Capricorn since November 1998, when it crossed over from Sagittarius).

Any decent star chart (a proper one, not an astrological one) would be able to tell you this.

So, as I've easily proved your one claim that you've provided clear evidence for false, what does that mean for the rest?


but as a pattern of movement the 84 has a link I believe after a crime like thisThis is meaningless - you have not given any explanation as to what the 84 DAY CYCLE actually means.

[brianp]

THEY HAVE ALREADY FOUND THE PLACE I DESCRIBED as I have told you endlessly....I have never been to Portugal in my life and I described this place and helped find it...what about that don't you understand???

I said I am happy to have reported (directly or indirectly) such a place...

I've kept out of this thread so far but my blood has reached boiling point. My opinion is that any so-called psychic who adds to the already unimaginable trauma suffered by the families of missing children by pretending to have information relevant to the case, or who seeks to use such cases for self-promotion, should be behind bars - or, where appropriate, sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983.

To this end I would like to see the Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951 extended to encompass anyone making "psychic" claims about current criminal cases or recent tragedies of any sort. It's time this sort of ridiculous pantomime was stopped. It's one thing having a bit of fun with a stage act, a fun-fair "tell your fortune" sideshow or a "stars" column in a newspaper, but as soon as these people start impacting on the lives of people at their most vulnerable - the recently bereaved, parents of missing or sick kids etc - they should be hauled before the courts and shown no mercy.

Although it doesn't go nearly as far as I would like, there is a current online petition asking for the Fraudulent Mediums Act to be modified:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/mediums/

Why not sign it?

[Julia]

Psychicsarah, do yourself and everyone else a favour and face reality.

Firstly, you have NOT provided a description of any site in Portugal that couldn't apply to umpteen different areas. You say you've never visited Portugal in your life - so what? I've never been to South Africa or Australia, but based on what I've read and seen on TV I could describe a site just as accurately as you claim to have done. This process is called "guessing".

Secondly, since you haven't identified a particular site it stands to reason that you didn't help in its "discovery".

As for this mysterious yet compelling evidence you've refused to share with UKS - why do I get the impression that it will only make sense after the case has been solved and you can retrofit it into your own absurd narrative? Indeed, isn't it obvious to you that most of the stream-of-consciousness waffle you've offered so far WILL ONLY MAKE SENSE AFTER MADELEINE IS FOUND - DEAD OR ALIVE? What you are doing is utterly useless to the McCann family, the Portuguese police and everyone concerned in the search for Madeleine.

Oh, and since Uranus looms large in your recent contributions I too would love to know how its non-existant 84-day cycle fits in.

PS: Dr B, the unicorn arrived this morning! Unfortunately my closed-minded cat is convinced that the animal is indeed a dog and is mightily displeased. I have therefore decided, with great regret, to teleport the unicorn back to you. *concentrates mind-power* He should be in your back garden NOW...

[bindeweede]

I've kept out of this thread so far but my blood has reached boiling point. My opinion is that any so-called psychic who adds to the already unimaginable trauma suffered by the families of missing children by pretending to have information relevant to the case, or who seeks to use such cases for self-promotion, should be behind bars - or, where appropriate, sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983.

To this end I would like to see the Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951 extended to encompass anyone making "psychic" claims about current criminal cases or recent tragedies of any sort. It's time this sort of ridiculous pantomime was stopped. It's one thing having a bit of fun with a stage act, a fun-fair "tell your fortune" sideshow or a "stars" column in a newspaper, but as soon as these people start impacting on the lives of people at their most vulnerable - the recently bereaved, parents of missing or sick kids etc - they should be hauled before the courts and shown no mercy.

Although it doesn't go nearly as far as I would like, there is a current online petition asking for the Fraudulent Mediums Act to be modified:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/mediums/

Why not sign it?

Well, I have signed it, but I doubt whether anything will change. Drawing the line between what would and wouldn't be acceptable would probably be a legal nightmare.

[tolman]

I don't think some of you can read....
I down played the 'buried' aspect (on mirror forum) and changed it to CONCEALED...because I was trying to down play this aspect of the situation...But if you look in the Oxford dictionary they mean the same thing...something can be called 'buried' but not be 6 feet under the earth...that was why I changed it to concealed... buried is concealed and concealed is buried...different words for the same thing
Well, the generally understood meaning of 'buried in rough wooded ground" would be "buried under the surface of the ground", or at the very least, 'covered with ground-typical material (such as leaf litter, etc)'
One might say "information was buried within a report", but that'd still mean "hidden within the report", not placed on top covered with a tarpaulin.
If, asked to bury a body in the woods, a henchman came back and said "I buried it OK, boss. I dumped it on the ground and threw a few branches over it. You'd hardly tell it was there from 3 yards away, as long as you didn't notice the flies and had no sense of smell.", he'd probably not be very popular.

I take it when you later say "she is not buried", at that point you aren't using your earlier overbroad definition of the word, or are 'buried' and 'not buried' also 'different words for the same thing'?


..I would be delighted if now the info has been passed on if it would all be merrily deleted...
You do seem keen to get stuff deleted, don't you?

What about all the distance changes - are they down to some linguistic confusion, or are all your psychic sources no better at map-reading than you are?

[Admin]

There's an interesting posting from psychicsarah: Here (http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/a/256534.htm#comment-26302)


psychicsarah says:

June 7, 2007 at 6:53 am

For the PORTUGESE POlice should they care to read it…

I was wondering if you could verify if the info I am getting about Maddy makes any sense.

I am well know here in Ireland for my psychic work (you can verify my credentials on psychicsarah.com.) I have a high rate of accuracy with what I do.

In the Sarah Payne case I informed the police that the search north of the border was futile and that Sarah would be found 10 or 11 miles from home within an day or two…she was. Also in the Soam case I said that Holly and Jessica would be found within a day or two and that Huntley was indeed the perteprator

In this case re Maddy; I am really not convinced she is still alive. I have a feeling she is buried in rough/dry/sandy sparsely wooded ground between 2 and 4 miles north/ north east from where she was taken…(I have sinced checked the maps and this road and route leads north to the forested mountain region)

I am not convinced that Maddy was abucted for a paedophile reason…I have a feeling it was a sense of loss over a child … I have impressions of who did it and better not say. But the key to finding her is to dowse over a detailed map of the Algarve…

I am wondering if this is a Huntley type scenario?? Just as I am not convinced there was abuse in the Soam Case…I don’t feel there has been with Maddy…people assume this too readily sometimes…these things are sometimes a hideous kind of scenario which escalates out of control and I believe this is what happened re Maddy….she was ‘accidentally’ strangled when the abductor panicked…possibly and ironically because of all the publicity…

It is all much closer to home than people realise…it’s someone local who would not stand out like a sore thumb and who was aware of the routines…she was carried away; not put directly into a car…and kept briefly in an underground basement or cellar…it wasn’t madly planned or thought out…it was spontaneous and opportunistic becasue of emotional trauma within the person who abducted her

My prediction on the Maddy case is that this will be solved in the next three or four weeks rather than dragging on forever…though I think that the search across Europe is pointless except to raise the profile over other missing kids perhaps. If that is some good which can come out of this fine… But I think the Mc Cann’s will be rueing the day they left their kids to head to the Tapas bar for a long time to come…regretably…
Let me know if I can be of any help in this; I know there will be all sorts of psychic info coming out of the woodwork on this. But we DO need to find Maddy!

I this case I DO hope I am wrong and that Maddy will be alive and released…but….it’s not looking good.

There is a psychic from Austria who believes Maddy is being held with a rich family in Morrocco in Meknes…by a man aged 40 to 50 who wanted a pretty child. Again she feels there is no physical abuse. and if she is not found within a year she will not then be found until her teenaged years. If this is true…how many rich family’s can there be in a smallish place like Menkes?

I hope this lady is right and I am not…but these are the two main scenarios presenting to us all and they both need to be checked out. We will then have the answer…

God speed the answer to this horrible situation
Her parent’s need an answer and we need to put our energy into this….concentrate on finding HER and then it will be more clear who did it and why…Rather interesting. ;)

Note the date: 7th June 2007

[RubyRedRose]

Psychicsarah, you not only said Madeline WAS buried, but you added you hoped you were wrong but that it didn't look good.

I can quote the URL for that.

[brianp]

e
Well, I have signed it, but I doubt whether anything will change. Drawing the line between what would and wouldn't be acceptable would probably be a legal nightmare.
I agree, but at least it might plant the idea of a need for regulation in the minds of the lawmakers. And, of course, one could greatly simplify the legal procedure by making it an offence to make any public claim of psychic abilities unless one can demonstrate those abilities under controlled conditions.

In my imaginary Utopia there would be no CAM, no use of pseudo-scientific bullsh*t to sell cosmetics or nutitional supplements, no psychics, no mediums. The watch-word would be "evidence". If you want to claim your supplement or skin cream or whatever has a particular property, or you want to claim a supernatural ability, you must satisfy a scientific panel that the claim is true. Of course it won't happen - but wouldn't it be great?

[NotEntirelyUnstable]

A long time ago, in a land far far away..
me an my mate figured that imperial scientific knowledge was realy just a pack of ideas that explain stuff most of the time. Having grown up with a love of science it was a bit of a shock. Based on the evidence of my own experences and the experiences of others we decided to take it seriously and learn. Books on the subject are vast, and vaige so i figured it was just advanced personalized psycology and tested my own ideas. Much like science, idea's brought together by establishing clear experienced patterns where infinitly valuable in implementing change in the world. Their is many great many amaizing things that can be done in the world this way, but its a very risky business messing with your own mind, let alone others. Psychics with any value to society have often spent over half their life trying to get some balence between them and the forces of nature.
That makes them:
-Excentric
-Less worrid about public opinion than a sharp stick
-Likely to help the comunity they are in. including trees and spirits
-Quite happy to let athiests rule, before them things got quite hot

I'd say most religions/cults believe in human possabilitys that would conflict alot with science like 'powers of the mind'. The thing is, we have been believing them since we evolved, until the last few hundred years. Have we all become so enlightened that we can easily forget everything humans have believed in prior to resently?
I wouldn't disbelieve anything until its proven wrong, science is fantastic, provided you believe the theorys acuratcy is subject to the ways and environment in which they are tested and not the theory itself.
You dont get many great psycic scientists because the whole scientific comunitly it based on trust and credit, their isnt a better way to be discredited than to launch an investigation into ESP. When someone dicovers a new type of plastic its proof is in the pudding.
When someone descovers a theory, that might work under certain conditions the scientific community first check the validity of the scientist, then go on to prove/disprove the theory through their own experiments. Theorys involving the power of the mind don't go very far due to very specific conditions that allow their testing, condidtions that aren't easy to reproduce. It would take quite a few very reputable scientists to stick their neck out on some very questionable data to realy involve the comunitly in investivating the possibilitys properly. Their isnt any reputable psycologists, it isnt even a science is it?

The dimensional level's to human physiology where discused earlyer,
practicaly all the religions in the world have believed something similar.
maybe even science: http://www.esi-topics.com/brane/interviews/DrLisaRandall.html

It's still just a theory and its possibilitys for describing the world can't be tested until they make a big spinny thing in america.

excuse the spelling, never posted before

[bindeweede]

e
I agree, but at least it might plant the idea of a need for regulation in the minds of the lawmakers. And, of course, one could greatly simplify the legal procedure by making it an offence to make any public claim of psychic abilities unless one can demonstrate those abilities under controlled conditions.

In my imaginary Utopia there would be no CAM, no use of pseudo-scientific bullsh*t to sell cosmetics or nutitional supplements, no psychics, no mediums. The watch-word would be "evidence". If you want to claim your supplement or skin cream or whatever has a particular property, or you want to claim a supernatural ability, you must satisfy a scientific panel that the claim is true. Of course it won't happen - but wouldn't it be great?

In your Utopia, the Human Rights brigade would take you to the European Court for taking away their right to spend good money on unproven, expensive junk they believe, in their little hearts, is health-enhancing.

Have you seen those adverts when products are supposed to improve your whatever, by "up to 100%"? So what precisely does that mean?

AH! My "Edit" function seems to have returned. I contacted the management about having lost it earlier today.

EDIT. No it hasn't.

[Admin]

Welcome NotEntirelyUnstable. O0

The argument you're putting forward is a one that we come across frequently.

It usually goes along the lines that psychic ability (or whatever) is real, science is great but limited (or science has been wrong before, science doesn't know everything) therefore science is not capable of properly investigating psychic ability.

It's a flawed argument however; no matter which particular form it takes.

Science aims to understand anything that is real (any natural phenomenon). Anything that is real is that which can be observed or measured in some way. If it can then science is the best tool for investigating the phenomenon.

Observation and measurement is paramount - it is these upon which the theories are developed.

And make no mistake, psychic abilities can most certainly be measured by science - by measuring the results they produce.

The problem being that when these psychic powers are studied scientifically, i.e. controlling for variables which can make psychic ability appear to be real, there's nothing there!

The great physicist Richard Feynman once said, “It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong”.

By this he means that you can theorise as much as you like and come up with any fantastic theory that you want but if it doesn't match observation then your theory is wrong.

So to get to the point, people can say what they like about science, and they can come up with any theory they like about why psychic ability is real but unless psychic ability can be demonstrated, any such theory is worthless.

If psychic ability cannot be demonstrated (and it can't) yet people still believe in it, what's going on?

It's interesting that you mentioned psychology. ;) For that, IMO, is where the answers lie.

[NotEntirelyUnstable]

Thank you for your reply

This is whats bothered be for a long time.
Why hasnt it been messured? my own observations cant be that wrong, more than that (because i would be happy to assume im mad) ive demonstrated things to groups of people that has made them all cack themselves, and they all had identical experiences on many occasions. I know you cant take that on face value tho. It's all stuff perfectly explainable through scientific means im sure, just an area not looked into.
the point is, if somone's personal reality influences anothers to an extent that the real reality apears not to function the way is should acording to the multitude. Are my freinds and I wrong? tripping? lier's?

[NotEntirelyUnstable]

I think whatever you think on the psychic debate, you shouldnt choose to census peoples predictions or opinions based entirely on a scientific pannel.
Doing anything like that is an incredibly personal thing, when i did those things it was amongst my close freinds, or i was quite intoxicated. i couldnt do it in the presence of scientists, it would be like having sex infront of a panel of judges includeing all my family.

I'd like to see some academic qualifications on the subject tho, at least on the moral points to the art.

[Admin]

I think whatever you think on the psychic debate, you shouldnt choose to census peoples predictions or opinions based entirely on a scientific pannel.

Well, if psychic ability is not tested scientifically do you have a better alternative?

Science is the best tool we have for investigating real phenomena and it seems to me that those who don't like science (don't trust it etc.) are those who believe in things that aren't real. Coincidence?

The main point is though: if not science, then what else?


Doing anything like that is an incredibly personal thing, when i did those things it was amongst my close freinds, or i was quite intoxicated. i couldnt do it in the presence of scientists, it would be like having sex infront of a panel of judges includeing all my family.

Not every psychic will be a natural public performer but some of them will be. They don't seem too shy in demonstrating their abilities to theatres full of paying customers. Why do they go shy when scientists are around?

So I don't buy this "they can't perform like circus animals" argument - they can when it suits them (!)

And as for sex - look at the porn industry. Like I said, most of us couldn't perform under those conditions but others can. Surely not every psychic is completely self-conscious!!!


I'd like to see some academic qualifications on the subject tho, at least on the moral points to the art.

There are plenty of Ph.D scientists who've studied the paranormal!!!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

It is a free world...we do what we do....and GOD is our judge...not the septics...

HE would be if he existed >:D

[Jocky]

Hi NotEntirelyUnstable, and welcome to UKS.


I think whatever you think on the psychic debate, you shouldnt choose to census peoples predictions or opinions based entirely on a scientific pannel.
Doing anything like that is an incredibly personal thing, when i did those things it was amongst my close freinds, or i was quite intoxicated. i couldnt do it in the presence of scientists, it would be like having sex infront of a panel of judges includeing all my family.

I think you completely misunderstand how to go about investigating these things. Whether or not psychic powers exist has got nothing whatever to do with the judgements of any kind of "panel", made up of scientists or anybody else. Reality is not decided by majority vote of a focus group - it is what it is.

The only real way to experiment with psychic ability is to test it in such a way that the results are objective, and do not rely on the subjective judgement of anyone. Proper testing would certainly not involve "panels of scientists" sitting in judgement.


if somone's personal reality influences anothers to an extent that the real reality apears not to function the way is should acording to the multitude. Are my freinds and I wrong?

Can you be more specific about the effect to which you refer? It sounds to me as though the only available data are anecdotal subjective judgements made by a "panel" of your mates.


I wouldn't disbelieve anything until its proven wrong

Do you realise that the actual meaning of this sentence is that "I will always believe everything"? It is impossible to prove negatives, so the phrase "until its proven wrong" means the same thing as "forever".

I respectfully suggest that you need to take a less credulous approach to the question. Start by asking yourself honestly what positive evdience you actually have (other than subjective reactions of friends).

[Jocky]

Hi Sarah,



Well I think there are 101 definitions of The Gift

I need to find a way to describe it to you...

Notice that I said "meaningful definition", BTW. That means I'm not after a woolly metaphor - I'm looking for something concrete and ultimately falsifiable. If it is not falsifiable, it's meangingless.

From your descriptions of things you believe you can do and have done, it sounds to me as if your "gift" could be given a falsifiable definition. This is good.


I am not yet sure I can PROVE the gift exists....

Let's explore it and find out, then.


I have done lots of TV and radio where I have been under test type conditions [snip] perhaps it is just incidental and coincidental from the skeptics point of view

If you could reproduce such abilities a statistically significant number of times under controlled conditions, it is not incidental and is extremely unlikely to be coincidental. If.

It seems like a long time since we were having this discussion (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=13795&postcount=220
). This thread seems to be prone to spiralling out of control!

Have you had any further thoughts on how to define your "gift"? If you are genuinely unsure of whether it could be meaningfully tested, we might be able to help you establish this.

Quite frankly, all this endless sparring over details of what may or may not be going on in Portugal is never going to provide any meaningful evidence of anything to anybody in a million years.

[brianp]

You seem to find it impossible to get your head around the fact that people simply want to help...in whatever way feels right to them..

It is a free world...we do what we do....and GOD is our judge...not the septics...

We'd all 'like to help" - I'd bet there's not a forum member who wouldn't help find Madeleine *if they could*. But the sad fact is that unless we have real evidence to give the police - something we've actually heard, read, seen or smelt with possible relevance to the case - there's absolutely nothing we can do.

All you do is waste police time with your fantasies - you have not, will not, and can not possibly "help" because your much-vaunted 'gift' is either a sham or a delusion.

It's so easy to make vague statements with no context and to shoe-horn those statements into real world happenings after the event. I call it retrospective prediction - it's no gift, we can all do it, but it means nothing, it helps nobody - it's a stupid game. And it is indefensible to play your silly games with the lives of missing kids and traumatised families - in fact it's a bloody disgrace.

You say that God is your judge - if I had my way it would be the local magistrate.

[tolman]

Sarah,

'Helping' is doing things that are useful to other people, not just what one thinks should be useful to other people.
'Trying to help' isn't helping unless it actually is useful. Trying and failing to help is usually hindering, however well-meaning.

I'd draw an analogy between psychic predictions and prayer.
Both are essentially useless in the basic sense that they don't do what they say on the tin. Prayer doesn't change events and psychic predictions don't come true better than chance.

Both may have psychological uses.
Prayer may make the people praying feel better, or help motivate them to do something actually. It may even make some other people feel better if they know it's happening and buy in to the whole thing.

Likewise, psychic predictions may well make the predictor feel better, make them feel like they are doing something even when they're not. It may even make some other people feel comforted to believe in it.

Now, few people would object to other people praying somewhere else, if it makes them feel better and doesn't actively get in the way of them actually doing something useful.
However, if someone went and prayed and then went on and on to other people about how they'd been praying and how useful it was going to be, they'd have to be pretty thick not to expect to fairly quickly told to shut up.

The problem with psychic predictions is that even if they were useful (which the evidence simply doesn't support), they wouldn't be useful without other people being told about them, so the predictor might feel motivated to make themselves a pain in everyone else's neck.

If someone's best claim to success, their best claim to have helped past investigations, is their [claimed] communication in a couple of UK cases to effectively say "The person/people who has/have been missing for weeks will be found somewhere in the next few days.", at best they'd have to be a serious optimist to honestly think they were really likely to be of future use.

[Dr B]

PS: Dr B, the unicorn arrived this morning! Unfortunately my closed-minded cat is convinced that the animal is indeed a dog and is mightily displeased. I have therefore decided, with great regret, to teleport the unicorn back to you. *concentrates mind-power* He should be in your back garden NOW...

Hi Julia

Yes it arrived back...however, something must have gone wrong in one of the many parallel dimensions. I felt a great disturbance in the force.....:cheesy:.....I think when you sent it back it's physical struture got re-combined with a fly or something....possibly a tortoise as well. I cannot describe to you the mess that is now in the garden - but it should help the roses. I had to do the humane thing and beat it around the head with a shovel. At which point it started to produce waffle about Maddy. Then I did not feel so bad.....8)....and continuued..... Please send absent healing to the 'Uni-tortoise' in my garden......

[psychicsarah]

To the person whose blood is spiralling out of control over this...chillax...!

I am trying to help....I have contacted the PJ and they listened to me and then I faxed further info...I have done the right thing...for the reasons previously explained...

To say psychics should be sectioned for trying to help is just ludicrous...we are just citizens with a different kind of evidence..

There is no need to dismiss in such drastic terms something you are perhaps afraid of or simply do not understand

As I mentioned earlier a local policeman said 'why wouldn't the PJ listen to what you are saying?...'...so on his say so I phoned and faxed and seemingly they DID

(Hopefully the pidgeon Portuguese plus the faxes fell into the right hands)

I do not understand why people don't axccept that we FOUND the place I am describing...very odd...

As I said I am glad to have reported such a place...

and here we go again I am having to repeat myself....

Maddy aint going to be found while people are twiddling their thumbs, in between slagging each other off etc... now is she...?

Isn't it better that this case gets closure at this stage....the parents of Maddy need our compassion and prayers and sympathy.

I am trying to help them...the delusion is that she is alive and well and living it up in Morrocco...

As for the Unicorn and the jelly beans...sounds like there is a bit of magic in your life after all dr B...


Re logical, illogical, intuitive...etc...

It IS possible to be BOTH logical AND intuitive...no contradiction there...the two nicely compliment each other actually...much better than being too much of either one....both extremes miss the point

O0

[psychicsarah]

for the 100th time I am trying to help....

I have contacted the PJ and they listened to me and then I faxed further info...I have done the right thing...for the reasons previously explained...

To say psychics should be sectioned for trying to help is just ludicrous...we are simply citizens with a different kind of evidence..

There is no need to dismiss in such drastic terms something you are perhaps afraid of or simply do not understand

To say the judge of what I am doing should be the local magistrate is just RIDICULOUS...and what will you have to say to me if this proves to be correct????

Police DO use psychics and it is NOT at the last count illegal to be a psychic ...

As I mentioned earlier a local policeman said to me after a further discussion of this case...

'why wouldn't the PJ listen to what you are saying?...'...so on his say so I phoned and faxed and seemingly they DID

(Hopefully the pidgeon Portuguese plus the faxes fell into the right hands)

I do not understand why people don't accept that we FOUND the place I am describing...very odd...

As I said I am glad to have reported such a place...and here we go again I am having to repeat myself....

Maddy aint going to be found while people are twiddling their thumbs, in between slagging each other off etc... now is she...?

Isn't it better that this case gets closure at this stage.??? ...the parents of Maddy need our compassion and prayers and sympathy.

I am trying to help them...the delusion is that she is alive and well and living it up in Morrocco...

As for the Unicorn and the jelly beans...sounds like there is a bit of magic in your life after all dr B...


Re logical, illogical, intuitive...etc...

It IS possible to be BOTH logical AND intuitive...no contradiction there...the two nicely compliment each other actually...much better than being too much of either one....both extremes miss the point


There are currently developments going on that I can't put up on here and I believe she will be found soon...

all the best...:cheesy:

[psychicsarah]

Hello nice skeptic Mr jockey...still thinking

But I would really rather this Maddy thing was totally resolved before I come to any real thoughts on what to do re what you are suggesting

any such tests really have to be sorted out to both parties satisfaction....They have to reflect a true understanding of what psychic ability is and equally the psychic has to work out how what they are doing might be acceptable and provable to the scienceman...

Didn't Uri Gellar already do quite alot of this kind of testing for the skeptics already???

Has anyone come close to what you would call a 'provable' sixth sense???

How have you come up with the particular tests you have in mind and what makes you think they are the correct way to test a psychic and their ability????

Have you been hearing about the animals on SKY news who sense in hospitals who is going to die within a few hours...the furry friends sixth sense picks this up and then gives the familys of the patient's concerned due warning

It is possible that the sixth sense is simply a natural phenomenon within some people that some as yet don't recognise....

I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February....my sixth person replaced Nadine Coyle who was initially in the band but then booted out cos she lied about her age...it is all on camera )

8)

[vbloke]

for the 100th time I am trying to help....

I have contacted the PJ and they listened to me and then I faxed further info...I have done the right thing...for the reasons previously explained...
The police have to listen to anyone who gives them information - to not do so could impinge on their investigations if said information turns out to be useful.

However, as we've pointed out before, the police themselves say they don't use psychics (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=police_and_psychics.php).


To say psychics should be sectioned for trying to help is just ludicrous...we are simply citizens with a different kind of evidence..

There is no need to dismiss in such drastic terms something you are perhaps afraid of or simply do not understandWe're not afraid of psychics - that would be absurd.

You seem to labouring under the misunderstanding that we're afraid of you - we're not. We're concerned that you're wasting police time in this investigation and actually delaying Madeline being found.


To say the judge of what I am doing should be the local magistrate is just RIDICULOUS...and what will you have to say to me if this proves to be correct????

Police DO use psychics and it is NOT at the last count illegal to be a psychic ...See above


As I mentioned earlier a local policeman said to me after a further discussion of this case...

'why wouldn't the PJ listen to what you are saying?...'...so on his say so I phoned and faxed and seemingly they DID

(Hopefully the pidgeon Portuguese plus the faxes fell into the right hands)They won't listen because they don't use psychics. End of story. Like I said, they have to look at everything that comes in, but the psychic stuff is usually ignored as soon as it becomes apparent that it's based on dreams.


I do not understand why people don't accept that we FOUND the place I am describing...very odd...

As I said I am glad to have reported such a place...and here we go again I am having to repeat myself....We don't accept it because there is no proof. No proof, no evidence, no sale.


Maddy aint going to be found while people are twiddling their thumbs, in between slagging each other off etc... now is she...?No, she will be found by hard, real detective work.


Isn't it better that this case gets closure at this stage.??? ...the parents of Maddy need our compassion and prayers and sympathy. Prayer is as effective as psychic visions - not at all. What her parents need is reality, not false hope.


I am trying to help them...the delusion is that she is alive and well and living it up in Morrocco...You believe you are trying to help them. You are not. You are trying to get your name attached to a high profile case.


As for the Unicorn and the jelly beans...sounds like there is a bit of magic in your life after all dr B...There's a real difference between a healthy imagination and fantasy. This seems to be something you have difficulty with.



Re logical, illogical, intuitive...etc...

It IS possible to be BOTH logical AND intuitive...no contradiction there...the two nicely compliment each other actually...much better than being too much of either one....both extremes miss the pointEveryone is both, but you take intuition to an extreme and imagine you can see things you really can't.



There are currently developments going on that I can't put up on here and I believe she will be found soon...

all the best...:cheesy:Again - no proof, no evidence, no sale.

How about addressing the Uranus issue..?

[tolman]

>>"for the 100th time I am trying to help...."
Trying isn't enough, the test is whether you actually help.
Which distance estimate is your current attempt to help?
2-4 miles
10-20 km
'9 miles and back'
7-9 miles
20 minute drive
10 minute drive, then turn left and drive some more
or any others I may have missed

And this from someone with a claimed 90% accuracy rate.

>>"To say psychics should be sectioned for trying to help is just ludicrous...we are simply citizens with a different kind of evidence.."
Citizens with a different definition of 'evidence' which includes things they dreamed up the previous night, and things which their Iroquois spirit guide or some cast chicken bones told them.
In other words, not *real* evidence.

Personally, I'd just charge people who were aiming to make money from psychic claims with fraud, and wait for them to choose between proving their abilities, claiming diminished responsibility or pleading guilty.
Likewise, ones who pestered police repeatedly, I'd charge with wasting police time, and maybe they'd then have to back up any claims of being useful to police in the past with actual evidence.
Proper evidence, not imaginary evidence.

>>"There are currently developments going on that I can't put up on here and I believe she will be found soon..."

Define 'soon'.

I'm sure there are developments going on that *I* can't put up here. That's because I don't know what they are.

Sarah, are you still claiming that James Randi backed out of your attempt to take his challenge?

[vbloke]

Hello nice skeptic Mr jockey...still thinking

But I would really rather this Maddy thing was totally resolved before I come to any real thoughts on what to do re what you are suggestingThis is a perfect opportunity - all you have to do is show us your evidence so that it can be objectively assessed - no retrofitting required after the event. As you seem so reticent to provide said evidence, we can only assume that you have none and are making the whole thing up.


any such tests really have to be sorted out to both parties satisfaction....They have to reflect a true understanding of what psychic ability is and equally the psychic has to work out how what they are doing might be acceptable and provable to the scienceman...This is how proper testing works. Every testee defines the scope of the test, we just make sure that no cheating can occur.


Didn't Uri Gellar already do quite alot of this kind of testing for the skeptics already??? You do realise that Uri Gellar has been exposed as a fraud for decades? If he's the best you can come up with, you really are grasping at straws.


Has anyone come close to what you would call a 'provable' sixth sense???No.


How have you come up with the particular tests you have in mind and what makes you think they are the correct way to test a psychic and their ability????The psychic makes the claim and proposes the test. We only ensure that no cheating can take place.


Have you been hearing about the animals on SKY news who sense in hospitals who is going to die within a few hours...the furry friends sixth sense picks this up and then gives the familys of the patient's concerned due warning Yes we have - there's a thread about it here (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1132) - I very much doubt it's anything to do with paranormal ability though (confirmation bias, the extra attention of nursing staff to a dying patient, the extra warm blankets and smells).


It is possible that the sixth sense is simply a natural phenomenon within some people that some as yet don't recognise.... If there is, there is no evidence of it. Odd isn't it how psychics can turn this power on and off in front of an audience or on TV, phone lines, email mailing lists and newspapers and magazines, but put them in front of scientists and skeptics and their powers vanish.


I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February....my sixth person replaced Nadine Coyle who was initially in the band but then booted out cos she lied about her age...it is all on camera )Then you won't be at all averse to passing on a copy of this televised event?

I'm still waiting for an explanation of this Uranus 84 day cycle. I've already debunked your Uranus claim, so where does that leave your other claims?

[Jocky]

Hello nice skeptic Mr jockey

Hello, Sarah.


still thinking

But I would really rather this Maddy thing was totally resolved before I come to any real thoughts on what to do re what you are suggesting

We all want the Maddy thing to be resolved. As the father of a four year old girl myself, I am acutely aware of the tragedy of it all.

Realistically though, any amount of backchat on forums and bandying around of lengthy predictions is extremely unlikely to have any bearing on its resolution - as others have pointed out above. IMO both your energies and ours would be better spent investigating whether or not psychic abilities actually exist.


any such tests really have to be sorted out to both parties satisfaction

As vbloke says, that is exactly the idea. A mutually acceptable protocol would have to be agreed before anything could be tested. Nobody has to do anything which has not been agreed in detail in advance.


Didn't Uri Gellar already do quite alot of this kind of testing for the skeptics already

Not with any success, he didn't!


How have you come up with the particular tests you have in mind and what makes you think they are the correct way to test a psychic and their ability?

Again, I concur with vbloke. The "gift" is yours, not ours. It is up to you to stipulate what it can and cannot do. We would simply advise on how to test it meaningfully, and help to arrange the practical requirements.


It is possible that the sixth sense is simply a natural phenomenon within some people that some as yet don't recognise....

It is true that there are natural phenomena which science has yet to completely explain. However, there is no evidence that psychic ability exists as an objective natural phenomenon, and therefore at present there is nothing there to recognise.

If a way of demonstrating that your "gift" functioned to a statistically significant level under controlled conditions could be found, there would be evidence for the existence of a natural phenomenon - and then there would be someting there to investigate.


I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February

This is the kind of thing I was thinking of when I said that:


From your descriptions of things you believe you can do and have done, it sounds to me as if your "gift" could be given a falsifiable definition. This is good.

A test of this general kind, if performed under controlled conditions and in accordance with a mutually agreed protocol, could potentially be an avenue worth exploring.

Note that the presence of TV cameras in itself does not constitute "controlled conditions", and does not add any credibility to the validity of the test. Actually, it's quite the reverse sometimes - the priority of TV crews is to come up with a programme, not to worry about boring things like statistical significance and proper controls.

[Matt]

any such tests really have to be sorted out to both parties satisfaction....They have to reflect a true understanding of what psychic ability is and equally the psychic has to work out how what they are doing might be acceptable and provable to the scienceman...

The important thing is that we test only what the psychic claims they can do. The "scienceman" as you describe the investigator merely adds controls that eliminate alternative explanations for a success.


Didn't Uri Gellar already do quite alot of this kind of testing for the skeptics already???

Ahem.. he's certainly been exposed as a charlatan and a fraud by many researchers. The Gotcha video truly sunk him in my eyes.



Has anyone come close to what you would call a 'provable' sixth sense???

Not that I'm aware.



How have you come up with the particular tests you have in mind and what makes you think they are the correct way to test a psychic and their ability????

There no single correct way. All the test has to do is test the ability that the claimant claims to have and eliminate alternative explanations.


Have you been hearing about the animals on SKY news who sense in hospitals who is going to die within a few hours...the furry friends sixth sense picks this up and then gives the familys of the patient's concerned due warning

Yes and the possible non supernatural explanations have been suggested. Check the thread Psychic Cat


It is possible that the sixth sense is simply a natural phenomenon within some people that some as yet don't recognise....

Quite possible. If so we'd expect to be able to test for it.


I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February....my sixth person replaced Nadine Coyle who was initially in the band but then booted out cos she lied about her age...it is all on camera )

8)

That's a remarkable achievement. Odds of doing this by pure chance are about one in 2 million so we can immediately discount guessing.

However you had access to all the girls and the information Louis would be using to pick them. This makes your choice less similar to picking the lottery numbers and more similar to predicting which horses a given tipster would pick on a certain day.

Considering supernatural ability it is not clear if the information came from the future (precognition) or from Louis's mind (telepathy) as according to one reject the judges had picked their favourites from the start and had given then preferential treatment.

If that reject was correct and made her conclusions via natural means then we have yet another explanation for your feat.

If Derren Brown had performed the same feat there'd be no doubt about the techniques he'd used. Under a sceptically controlled test, measures would be put in place to ensure that you're not consciously or unconsciously using the same techniques. You might not even know it if you were.

Then there's the whole issue of whether Louis might have been able to fudge the results aware of the value of a publicity stunt.

If you want a protocol with exemplary controls why not try the lottery. If you use the same ability to pick the lottery results a few weeks in a row then you'd hardly care less about those few who persisted in doubting your psychic ability. Obviously it may seem immoral to keep such earnings so why not donate the money to http://imec.org (http://imec.org/) or http://pact-online.org (http://pact-online.org/) who support the http://missingkids.co.uk/ (http://missingkids.co.uk/) website. They will beyond question be able to provide a great deal of help not only to the Maddy investigation but to the scores of other similar but less publicised cases.

[Jocky]

If you want a protocol with exemplary controls why not try the lottery. If you use the same ability to pick the lottery results a few weeks in a row then you'd hardly care less about those few who persisted in doubting you're psychic ability. Obviously it may seem immoral to keep such earnings so why not donate the money ... They will beyond question be able to provide a great deal of help not only to the Maddy investigation but to the scores of other similar but less publicised cases.
;D

[ >:D ]
But Matt, that would only work if the "gift" is true precognition, independent of any human factor. If was to be some form of telepathy, or predictive readings of the future of living people, then that could explain the selection of the right kids but the lottery test wouldn't work.
[/ >:D ]

[Matt]

;D

[ <IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22"> ]
But Matt, that would only work if the "gift" is true precognition, independent of any human factor. If was to be some form of telepathy, or predictive readings of the future of living people, then that could explain the selection of the right kids but the lottery test wouldn't work.
[/ <IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22"> ]

;D

Well there are alternatives. Do Jockey's count as living people? I'm sure a six horse accumulator would be quite profitable enough.;)

[Julia]

psychicsarah, we're still waiting to hear about Uranus. Do you accept that the planet does not have an 84-day cycle and therefore could not have influenced your "knowledge" about Madeleine McCann's abduction?

Hello?

Hello?

[brianp]

I do not understand why people don't axccept that we FOUND the place I am describing...very odd...

As I said I am glad to have reported such a place...

I do not understand why you are making such a ludicrous claim when your description could equally have applied to a multitude of other places in Portugal and elsewhere - and, of course, the location was an irrelevancy anyway. You found zilch!


Maddy aint going to be found while people are twiddling their thumbs, in between slagging each other off etc... now is she...?
O0I'm sure that the police are doing everything they can to find the child based on available evidence. Your fantasies will not help in any way.

[Jocky]

;D
Well there are alternatives. Do Jockey's count as living people? I'm sure a six horse accumulator would be quite profitable enough.;)

Ah, you'd be wanting an equine psychic for that. Different thing, y'know.

Besides, bookies are strangely reticent when it comes to paying out bets on the basis of subjective validation. "I see a brown horse with an R in its name running very fast" is unlikely to count as a winner.

BTW, I'm your Scottish sort of Jocky, rather than the horse-riding sort. Whether or not I count as a living being is a matter of opinion :smiley:

[Matt]

BTW, I'm your Scottish sort of Jocky, rather than the horse-riding sort. Whether or not I count as a living being is a matter of opinion :smiley:

Is that like the Whisky/Whiskey thing: when it's spelt with an E it comes from Ireland?

[psychicsarah]

quote Matt]


Originally Posted by psychicsarah
I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February....my sixth person replaced Nadine Coyle who was initially in the band but then booted out cos she lied about her age...it is all on camera )

8)
That's a remarkable achievement. Odds of doing this by pure chance are about one in 2 million so we can immediately discount guessing.

However you had access to all the girls and the information Louis would be using to pick them. This makes your choice less similar to picking the lottery numbers and more similar to predicting which horses a given tipster would pick on a certain day.

Considering supernatural ability it is not clear if the information came from the future (precognition) or from Louis's mind (telepathy) as according to one reject the judges had picked their favourites from the start and had given then preferential treatment.

If that reject was correct and made her conclusions via natural means then we have yet another explanation for your feat.

If Derren Brown had performed the same feat there'd be no doubt about the techniques he'd used. Under a sceptically controlled test, measures would be put in place to ensure that you're not consciously or unconsciously using the same techniques. You might not even know it if you were.

Then there's the whole issue of whether Louis might have been able to fudge the results aware of the value of a publicity stunt.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Matt

This was so NOT fudged... and if you watch the show from start to finish you will see this....perhaps you should just get hold of the videos for your research!

Thankyou Matt....I can absolutely reassure you the conditions were absolutely NOT set up....I didn't know anyone on the set I had to travel to Portumna...to a hotel...and only met the final 32 for 5 to 10 minutes each... 8.30 at night....and in between filming etc...it all wrapped up at 1am

It was MY idea to do an envelope with who I thought would be in the band...the TV people certainly hadn't thought of testing me in this way

No I did NOT have access to all the girls and boys aside from the 10 minute readings...I did not even get to hear them sing and dance as part of my assessment ...Certainly I had no access to the judges or their choices (except for a 10 minute filmed chat on astrology the following morning) ...nor did I have information re the kids aside from their birthdate and names or the techniques used to pick them...

In fact from the kids readings you would say that nearly all of them looked good to be in the band...(They all were going to do well in the future).....so how did I know who would be picked for THIS....even from meeting them for 10 mintues each...the TV people were very careful to not tell me anything at all...

as for Louis I think he actually wondered why on earth this was happening on a music show!!! If anything they down played the whole thing because of this ...they did NOt ham it up which to my mind makes it more real and effective...

The whole thing really added to the drama of the show...and the reactions afterwards were very revealing (of human nature) ...complete silence from some quarters...

I don't know what possessed me (!) to offer to do the envelope but something told me it was okay...

I was certainly NOT guessing...I did not know Louis Walsh at this point...and actually I did not meet him until the following day...I only met the contestants and did not know who the favs were apart from what I picked up myself...no one told me anything

Actually you can see this in the scene where Louis opens my envelope in front of the chosen kids...he is embarrassed for me before he even starts and fears I might only get one or two right...(this reflects how quiet he kept his choices)

You can see by the end that they are rather stunned...but the good thing is that it validated Sarah's presence in the band...she had felt very awkward coming in to replace Nadine...in a way the envelope was for HER as much as anything! ie it was her DESTINY to be in this band...

My contribution was all filmed...after the work I went straight to bed and then was called in in the morning when I did the envelope...it felt good and right when I did it...and it was done on PURE intuition...

What makes it more interesting is the girl who lied about her age...Nadine...cos on the way home...I picked up that she was going to be in the band....I thought 'no I have got it wrong'...at the same time knowing I hadn't...!!!

This was born out when the events unfolded...so it must have been precognition (no one else knew Nadine wasn't going to be in the band...she was HOT favourite...if I had been reading Louis and everyone else she would have been in my envelope)

This was what shocked people...crew included ...I knew for sure when they all wanted readings from me that something had happened!

But still they told me nothing...in fact I almost didn't get invited to the launch party...cos I could have (If I wasn't nice person) have done huge press and spoiled the show in advance...

(I also got the lotto numbers in the same week....and told a DJ the record he was going to play next whilst I was sittting at home on the phone...THIS freaked me out actually more than getting the SIX kids right and it was the one and only time I have wobbled myself!)


It interests me that some of you assume psychics cheat...this is obviously the premise of septics who do not believe there is such a thing as psychic ability. (the story above should give you the hint that we certainly don't....well I don't anyhow...what would be the point in cheating? If there isn't such a thing as psychic ability there isn't...if there is there IS)

I am interested in the way Derren Brown does not admitt to psychic ability...he is very clever and in a way is duping people with reverse psychology on this...to my mind he is more than a little bit psychic (on occasion)..!

He is fascinating but seems to use tricks to appear apparently psychic...and of course he does use TRICKS for the most part...(I certainly don't use tricks)

I thought the sceance he did was revealing though and it did not work...I was able to tell immediately that the people who were supposedly dead were actually still alive....(Mediums can do this)
So if he had had me in the room for that particular experiment I would have seen through it immediately...

we have a similar guy here in Ireland called Keith Barry...who is very good too

I have not researched URI...I was simply asking you what you thought of him...I was not making a personal comment on whether I rate him or not...

:cheesy:

[psychicsarah]

Originally Posted by psychicsarah
I strongly believe it is experientially provable at the very least (I passed a TV test where I had to pick out of 32 kids the six who were going to be in Louis Walsh's band for Irish POpstars...I did this in October put it in an envelope and it was opened in February....my sixth person replaced Nadine Coyle who was initially in the band but then booted out cos she lied about her age...it is all on camera )

8)
That's a remarkable achievement. Odds of doing this by pure chance are about one in 2 million so we can immediately discount guessing.

However you had access to all the girls and the information Louis would be using to pick them. This makes your choice less similar to picking the lottery numbers and more similar to predicting which horses a given tipster would pick on a certain day.

Considering supernatural ability it is not clear if the information came from the future (precognition) or from Louis's mind (telepathy) as according to one reject the judges had picked their favourites from the start and had given then preferential treatment.

If that reject was correct and made her conclusions via natural means then we have yet another explanation for your feat.

If Derren Brown had performed the same feat there'd be no doubt about the techniques he'd used. Under a sceptically controlled test, measures would be put in place to ensure that you're not consciously or unconsciously using the same techniques. You might not even know it if you were.

Then there's the whole issue of whether Louis might have been able to fudge the results aware of the value of a publicity stunt.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Matt

This was so NOT fudged... and if you watch the show from start to finish you will see this....perhaps you should just get hold of the videos for your research!

Thankyou Matt....I can absolutely reassure you the conditions were absolutely NOT set up....I didn't know anyone on the set I had to travel to Portumna...to a hotel...and only met the final 32 for 5 to 10 minutes each... 8.30 at night....and in between filming etc...it all wrapped up at 1am

It was MY idea to do an envelope with who I thought would be in the band...the TV people certainly hadn't thought of testing me in this way

No I did NOT have access to all the girls and boys aside from the 10 minute readings...I did not even get to hear them sing and dance as part of my assessment ...Certainly I had no access to the judges or their choices (except for a 10 minute filmed chat on astrology the following morning) ...nor did I have information re the kids aside from their birthdate and names or the techniques used to pick them...

In fact from the kids readings you would say that nearly all of them looked good to be in the band...(They all were going to do well in the future).....so how did I know who would be picked for THIS....even from meeting them for 10 mintues each...the TV people were very careful to not tell me anything at all...

as for Louis I think he actually wondered why on earth this was happening on a music show!!! If anything they down played the whole thing because of this ...they did NOt ham it up which to my mind makes it more real and effective...

The whole thing really added to the drama of the show...and the reactions afterwards were very revealing (of human nature) ...complete silence from some quarters...

I don't know what possessed me (!) to offer to do the envelope but something told me it was okay...

I was certainly NOT guessing...I did not know Louis Walsh at this point...and actually I did not meet him until the following day...I only met the contestants and did not know who the favs were apart from what I picked up myself...no one told me anything

Actually you can see this in the scene where Louis opens my envelope in front of the chosen kids...he is embarrassed for me before he even starts and fears I might only get one or two right...(this reflects how quiet he kept his choices)

You can see by the end that they are rather stunned...but the good thing is that it validated Sarah's presence in the band...she had felt very awkward coming in to replace Nadine...in a way the envelope was for HER as much as anything! ie it was her DESTINY to be in this band...

My contribution was all filmed...after the work I went straight to bed and then was called in in the morning when I did the envelope...it felt good and right when I did it...and it was done on PURE intuition...

What makes it more interesting is the girl who lied about her age...Nadine...cos on the way home...I picked up that she was going to be in the band....I thought 'no I have got it wrong'...at the same time knowing I hadn't...!!!

This was born out when the events unfolded...so it must have been precognition (no one else knew Nadine wasn't going to be in the band...she was HOT favourite...if I had been reading Louis and everyone else she would have been in my envelope)

This was what shocked people...crew included ...I knew for sure when they all wanted readings from me that something had happened!

But still they told me nothing...in fact I almost didn't get invited to the launch party...cos I could have (If I wasn't nice person) have done huge press and spoiled the show in advance...

(I also got the lotto numbers in the same week....and told a DJ the record he was going to play next whilst I was sittting at home on the phone...THIS freaked me out actually more than getting the SIX kids right and it was the one and only time I have wobbled myself!)


It interests me that some of you assume psychics cheat...this is obviously the premise of septics who do not believe there is such a thing as psychic ability. (the story above should give you the hint that we certainly don't....well I don't anyhow...what would be the point in cheating? If there isn't such a thing as psychic ability there isn't...if there is there IS)

I am interested in the way Derren Brown does not admitt to psychic ability...he is very clever and in a way is duping people with reverse psychology on this...to my mind he is more than a little bit psychic (on occasion)..!

He is fascinating but seems to use tricks to appear apparently psychic...and of course he does use TRICKS for the most part...(I certainly don't use tricks)

I thought the sceance he did was revealing though and it did not work...I was able to tell immediately that the people who were supposedly dead were actually still alive....(Mediums can do this)
So if he had had me in the room for that particular experiment I would have seen through it immediately...

we have a similar guy here in Ireland called Keith Barry...who is very good too

I have not researched URI...I was simply asking you what you thought of him...I was not making a personal comment on whether I rate him or not...

-------------------------------------

:cheesy:

[psychicsarah]

vbloke...the whole campaign to find Maddy has ironically delayed her being found...(In fact it may well have laid her open to danger if stilll alive)...

It is NOT what I have done re this which has hindered her being found......Who is listening anyhow...???

(All I have done is pass on the info through the correct means...which I had a professional responsibility to do actually....)


From what you say re police not using psychics...no one will be listening to what I have said on this matter anyhow....(though I hope they keep a good eye on that place we pointed out)

NO...I know you re not afraid of me...that's not what I said...

I am pleased to see the Uk police are heading out there and I pick up that this will bring a resolution quite soon now...

the 92nd and 96th days are important (I hope we hear how)

I do not think this will drag into the 100's of days now....

Thank GOD..(who does exist in my opinion!)

???

[vbloke]

Hi Sarah

Firstly, without documented proof, access to the raw, unedited footage and the testing controls, saying how accurate and controlled that particular stunt was is impossible, so it can safely be filed under "anecdote" and "uncontrolled TV demonstration that proves nothing".

Secondly, we assume psychics cheat because their powers vanish under conditions where cheating is impossible whenever they are tested properly. The fact that skilled magicians like Randi and Derren Brown can do everything that psychics claim to be able to do, but without claiming any powers or gifts, says volumes about confirmation bias, self delusion and fraud.

BTW, when did you contact Randi about taking the challenge - it's odd that the register of applicants doesn't seem to have your name on it...

Derren Brown is a magician. He claims no powers quite clearly - the fact that you claim he is "more than a little bit psychic" goes to show how unwilling you are to face the reality that magic tricks can do exactly what you claim without invoking the supernatural. His methods and techniques are common knowledge in the magic world and can be done (albeit, not with the same flourish and style as he musters) by many other skilled magicians. No psychic powers needed.

Finally - it's now 89 days after Madeline was abducted. The 84 day theory of yours is out of the window, how about spilling the beans about your Uranus 84 day cycle? I've asked a few times now and it does look like you're ignoring the question...

[psychicsarah]

Tolman... QUOTE ...Which distance estimate is your current attempt to help?
2-4 miles
10-20 km
'9 miles and back'
7-9 miles
20 minute drive
10 minute drive, then turn left and drive some more
or any others I may have missed


I NEVER said that re 10 min drive....these figures are not a contradiction....

I NEVER said 9 miles and back....I said 9 KMS and back..which fits with the site of the Dutch tip off....and the area where we found the dubious place...


The 2 to 4 MILES north East from where she was taken was my first clue....this is correct....someone did the maths for me on SKY...I gather this is about 5.5 kms...


I never said 7 to 9 miles...I said 7 to 9 kms....which is the Dutch Tip off site...

(I also got 9 to 15 kms at the point where Joanna who went missing in 2004 was being written about...which takes us to the village where she was last seen (Figueria)...but that is not to do with Maddy...it just means Joanna is out there to be found as well...


This place is a 20 minute drive when roads are deserted...(why be smart and say 10 mins)

These clues were psychic notes I got when beginning to get clues re her whereabouts...which gradually built up a picture of where she is to be found...and these clues too led to a place which we reported as described earlier (endlessly)

These clues came through when everyone was looking for her all over the world...and the main point of them was to say this was all closer to home than people were assuming

This is now being born out by developments and police are now saying they expect the answers to be on their doorstep...

ABOUT TIME TOO!!!!

This is what I have been saying from the word GO...

I was the only one brave enough to immediately say re the Malta sightings...that is NOT MAddy....

Also these were my notes which helped me build up a picture of what was happening in this case...

once again to reiterate...I have only been trying to HELP....

[vbloke]

So the 84 day thing is out of the window then? Is that why you're changing your claim now?

You have no professional responsibility, as "psychic" is not a recognised profession.

You "pick up" a resolution soon? I could have said that - let's see, all police leave in Portugal is suspended, police from the UK are going over there after new evidence and leads (due to detective work, not dreams, BTW) surface and you miraculously dream that she might be found soon? It's as pathetic as it is desperate.

I suppose 92 and 96 are associated with Neptune? Why not share with the class your Uranus 84 day cycle theory? I'm getting tired of asking about it (especially as there is no 84 day cycle for Uranus).

[psychicsarah]

no the 84 day thing...links to the developments re getting the UK police out there...I knew I wouldn't know what the breakthrough meant until a few days later...it also links to evidence breakthrough which as yet they are not making public...

(I am aware of the planetary placings currently of Neptune in Aquarius and Uranus in Pisces...not sure why someone thought I wasn't further back...I was talking about the links of these planets to the NATAL charts of Murat and Maddy)


I tried to explain re the 84 day thing...there is a vibrational pattern to numbers and the 84 links to Uranus...Astronomers wouldn't agree to this ...but intuitive astologers would...I am aware of the facts...but there is a vibrational element to astrology that astronomers for the most part don't recognise...

[psychicsarah]

no the 84 day thing...links to the developments re getting the UK police out there...I knew I wouldn't know what the breakthrough meant until a few days later...it also links to evidence breakthrough which as yet they are not making public...

(I am aware of the planetary placings currently of Neptune in Aquarius and Uranus in Pisces...not sure why someone thought I wasn't further back...I was talking about the links of these planets to the NATAL charts of Murat and Maddy)


I tried to explain re the 84 day thing...there is a vibrational pattern to numbers and the 84 links to Uranus...Astronomers wouldn't agree to this ...but intuitive astologers would...I am aware of the facts...but there is a vibrational element to astrology that astronomers for the most part don't recognise...

[psychicsarah]

I might be able to get you access to the edits etc re that show....once this is all over...

Perhaps Derren just gets similar results through different methods...it could be that the methods are different but the outcome looks similar..

I do believe that Derren is strongly telepathic....but do appreciate he has learned the art of reading people's body language and reactions etc...I am well aware of how he works and the tricks he sets up...though as I said the one that put the lie to what he is doing is the spoof...sceance (that really didn't wash)

I personally dont' know any tricks that is for sure

Re Rhandi application...the TV company made the application....actually it wouldn't surprise me if there were no record of it...We have filmed predictions for a possible show ...RTE initially turned down the idea as it stood...but we are looking into a slightly different programme format to explore these issues....

[vbloke]

Then explain it - kindly explain how the planets affect peoples lives , characters, personalities and lives. And why didn't you say to begin with they were Natal charts (and how do you know Murat's exact time & place of birth?).

Otherwise, you're just spouting more uninformed, gibberish.

[vbloke]

Even if you had no records, Randi would, all applications are recorded.

Secondly, Derren Brown is not telepathic - you're making excuses for him, based on your own misconceptions of how magicians and magic works - you take something you can't explain and label it paranormal, when there is a much more simple and mundane explanation. It is a trait of a fantasy-prone person.

[Allo Allo]

I was talking about the links of these planets to the NATAL charts of Murat and Maddy)

Murats Chart (http://collaboratingwithfate.blogspot.com/2007_05_27_archive.html)

I think these are dangerous allegations in the worst possible way – they indicate Murat’s guilt – surely he is innocent until being proved guilty by proper evidence? – and then the cop-out sentence “Even if he is proved to be innocent their destiny was intertwined at that location, at that moment.” Mmmmm >:-)

I keep thinking that Maddy, like thousands of other missing children, might never be found.

[tolman]

I NEVER said 9 miles and back....I said 9 KMS and back..which fits with the site of the Dutch tip off....and the area where we found the dubious place...

From what you wrote elsewhere:
>>"Another important clue my friend came up with is
9 and go back...
(so I wonder is it someone who went 9 miles out of P de Luz with MADDY then went back...home....without her)"

You were asking a question, but no doubt if '9 and back' was significant later, you'd claim it as a hit. In regard to '9 and back', you suggested miles, and not kilometres.


The 2 to 4 MILES north East from where she was taken was my first clue....this is correct....someone did the maths for me on SKY...I gather this is about 5.5 kms...
Later, when the Dutch letter appeared, you said the 2-4miles had been a mistake due to mapreading. You said it had been 2-4cm on the map, which was 10-20km in reality.

From what you wrote elsewhere:
>>"Oh...the 2 to 4 I got I think links to the grid on a map...
You know the 10km grid is done as 1cm to 5 kms...so 2 cms is 10 kms...2 to 4 kms is between 10 and 20 kms from where she was abducted ...which is where they are now looking ..."

and

>>" After the Dutch Tip off which linked the search directly to Oxadiere, it seemed that the ‘2 to 4’ message meant 2 to 4 cms on my map (Irish Indo’s recent Algarve booklet)."

and

>>" Also when I did manage to get an Algarve map...the 2 to 4 cms thing led directly to the area they are now investigating on the map I got (The Irish Independent's recent publication on the Algarve)
Anyhow the 2 to 4 kms prediction may yet be completely right..
I would suggest that she will be found 2 to 4 kms into that waste land area...which will be between 2 to 4 cms on the map I have..ie) 9 to 15 kms from where she was abducted...


I never said 7 to 9 miles...I said 7 to 9 kms....which is the Dutch Tip off site...

From what you wrote elsewhere:
>>"She is not buried...she is in an area not yet searched...
7 to 9 kms or miles(? ) from where she was taken"


(I also got 9 to 15 kms at the point where Joanna who went missing in 2004 was being written about...which takes us to the village where she was last seen (Figueria)...but that is not to do with Maddy...it just means Joanna is out there to be found as well...

You did say 9 to 15kms in relation to Madeleine


This place is a 20 minute drive when roads are deserted...(why be smart and say 10 mins)

You did say "10 mins and turn left", but having checked, that was in the context of your overall 20 minutes on deserted roads guess, so it was really 10 and then another 10, and they weren't two separate claims.


These clues were psychic notes I got when beginning to get clues re her whereabouts...which gradually built up a picture of where she is to be found...and these clues too led to a place which we reported as described earlier (endlessly)

These clues came through when everyone was looking for her all over the world...and the main point of them was to say this was all closer to home than people were assuming.

*Everyone* was looking for her all over the world?
I don't think so.
Many people had assumed she hadn't lived long (which is the likeliest conclusion in such cases), and the logical conclusion from that was that she probably wasn't very far away. That was presumably the initial best guess of the police, which is why they did a fair bit of combing nearby waste ground, etc, as police all over the world habitually do in such situations.
Maybe other psychics were coming up with bizarre distant destinations, but if someone wanted to make a prediction with the best chance of coming true, finding her relatively locally would have been by far the best bet from the word go.
As was pointed out to you on June 18th:
>>"FBI statistics show that around 75% of abducted children die within 6 hours of abduction, and 90% within 24 hours. Similar statistics are found in most countries."


This is now being born out by developments and police are now saying they expect the answers to be on their doorstep...

ABOUT TIME TOO!!!!

This is what I have been saying from the word GO...
You and most police, and most people with a grasp of statistics


I was the only one brave enough to immediately say re the Malta sightings...that is NOT MAddy.
Well, the odds were always pretty good that any individual 'sighting 'wouldn't be her even if she were still alive, and we all know the odds were hugely against her being alive.
It'd hardly be a brave call to make even for a skeptic just playing the odds.

[Matt]

Thanks Matt

This was so NOT fudged... and if you watch the show from start to finish you will see this....perhaps you should just get hold of the videos for your research!

Thankyou Matt....I can absolutely reassure you the conditions were absolutely NOT set up....I didn't know anyone on the set I had to travel to Portumna...to a hotel...and only met the final 32 for 5 to 10 minutes each... 8.30 at night....and in between filming etc...it all wrapped up at 1am

You're welcome Sarah,

I understand that you're convinced that there was no fudging going on. Please accept my assurances that I'm by in no way convinced that there was fudging going on either. All I'm saying is that in a properly designed sceptical enquiry it's only right that the possibility should be removed. I hope you'll agree. Also if I suggest ways in which the event might have been fudged, I'm not asserting that this is what happened, I'm merely showing reasonable doubt. Respectfully, even if I'm suggesting your conscious involvement I'm not asserting it.



It was MY idea to do an envelope with who I thought would be in the band...the TV people certainly hadn't thought of testing me in this way

If verified (again I'm not asserting that you're a liar just... well you know the rest) this still leave opportunities for opportunistic fudging of which you might not be aware.


No I did NOT have access to all the girls and boys aside from the 10 minute readings...I did not even get to hear them sing and dance as part of my assessment ...Certainly I had no access to the judges or their choices (except for a 10 minute filmed chat on astrology the following morning) ...nor did I have information re the kids aside from their birthdate and names or the techniques used to pick them...

Here I must point out that you must have been aware that it was a talent show and therefore have some inkling of the criteria on which they would be judged: talent. Also it has to be said that you might have had an opportunity for access prior to your first meeting. I'm afraid I'm not really familiar with the popstars format but was any of the series broadcast prior to your first meeting with the girls? I'm not saying that you chose to cheat in this way. Even if you did watch the show prior to accepting an invitation to appear on it, that can be seen as due diligence. I'd certainly want to see a show I was due to appear on. However such activity can also be interpreted as hot reading. Not only might you see the girls sing and dance but there would be an opportunity to gauge the reactions of the judges. Even if you know in your own mind that you didn't watch the show if the dates are such that material on the girls was broadcast prior to you meeting who knows what information you might have subconsciously picked up through half overheard conversations or even perhaps "morphic knowledge"

These objections could be easily overcome in a more strictly controlled rerun of the test. Once again I remind you that I'm not asserting that these were the methods by which the knowledge came to you. Only that by eliminating the possibility, both of us can know for certain exactly what influences could potentially have biased your decisions.

However we come to an obstacle that I'm not certain can be overcome. You did have access to the girls for 5-10 minutes each. Although you didn't get to see them sing and dance you did have time to make a semi-accurate assessment of their personality.

As you'll be aware from hanging around on this forum there is a technique, used by some intuitives, known as cold reading. Some may cynically exploit this technique to remarkable effect. Other may not even know they're doing it and it is a possibility that if there is genuine psychic ability it can be enhanced by unconsciously exploiting these techniques.

I haven't seen the tapes so don't know if there are examples of interactions that might appear similar to those described by cold reading. To be honest with you many normal conversations would expose similar feedback so I'd be surprised to see tapes that eliminated that possibility. Such a tape would simply show the girls staring impassively whilst you read their chart. Furthermore the tapes are likely to be edited and unedited originals might be hard to come by. This too would make them of limited value.

I can tell you that session readings using a mixture of hot and cold reading techniques are a great way to build empathy. (With tongue slightly planted within cheek I might add especially with girls)

The problem is not that even with all this additional face to face feedback your achievement is not still impressive but that it is impossible to quantify how impressive. I know I couldn't do it but I also know that with the face to face feedback my chance of getting six for six would rise dramatically above the one in two million for picking randomly.

I used a horse racing analogy earlier. Consider the difference between picking your horses randomly and being able to see them in the paddock before the off.

Imagine that somebody did regularly pick winners at the racecourse and claimed to do so through supernatural animal empathy obtained through visiting the horses in the paddock. I know that a number of other people improve their odds of picking winners through similar though mundane observations. How do I know if this person truly has a supernatural ability rather than simply being significantly better at an entirely natural assessment of the horses' abilities, strengths, temperaments and moods. Just as you didn't see the girls sing and dance the pundit doesn't get to see the horses run but the correlation between the characteristics they do have an opportunity to assess and the characteristics on which they will be judged is a matter of common knowledge.

A second possibly insurmountable obstacle is a the matter of form. Correct me if I'm wrong but it was only after the sessions that you felt your impressions were strong enough to put six names in an envelope. In a sceptical enquiry you'd be asked to do that on demand. As an below average pool player I've nonetheless pulled off some spectacular desperation shots. If I could do that sort of thing on demand I'd be a far superior player but sometimes you're just on good form and you know when it's worth a punt. To fall back on the racing analogy whether by animal empathy or more mundane means sometimes you just know when you're getting clear signals and it's worth betting the farm.

So my question to you is whether you feel you could pull off a stunt on demand and whether you could do so with just the astrological data, no face to face reading?


In fact from the kids readings you would say that nearly all of them looked good to be in the band...(They all were going to do well in the future).....so how did I know who would be picked for THIS....even from meeting them for 10 mintues each...the TV people were very careful to not tell me anything at all...

as for Louis I think he actually wondered why on earth this was happening on a music show!!! If anything they down played the whole thing because of this ...they did NOt ham it up which to my mind makes it more real and effective...

The whole thing really added to the drama of the show...and the reactions afterwards were very revealing (of human nature) ...complete silence from some quarters...

I don't know what possessed me (!) to offer to do the envelope but something told me it was okay...

I was certainly NOT guessing...I did not know Louis Walsh at this point...and actually I did not meet him until the following day...I only met the contestants and did not know who the favs were apart from what I picked up myself...no one told me anything

Of course it is not required for them to tell you anything. The fact that they had knowledge and were in your presence arouses suspicion in the mind of the sceptical investigator. If you could have obtained that knowledge through obvious verbal means, natural body language or even through telepathy it invalidates the assertion that precognition through astrology was the sole factor.

However this is quite easily managed in a possible re-run.


Actually you can see this in the scene where Louis opens my envelope in front of the chosen kids...he is embarrassed for me before he even starts and fears I might only get one or two right...(this reflects how quiet he kept his choices)

Well as he's in show business I'd quite expect him to be able to fool me if he had fudged his choice to more closely match a sneak peak at your predictions. Of course if you're psychic you can tell with greater accuracy whether he's faking it or not but clearly a sceptic cannot presuppose either that your are or you aren't psychic.


You can see by the end that they are rather stunned...but the good thing is that it validated Sarah's presence in the band...she had felt very awkward coming in to replace Nadine...in a way the envelope was for HER as much as anything! ie it was her DESTINY to be in this band...

Good for Sarah. of course if the fudging were done by Louis the girls would be stunned.


My contribution was all filmed...after the work I went straight to bed and then was called in in the morning when I did the envelope...it felt good and right when I did it...and it was done on PURE intuition...

Ideally in sceptical investigation it would all be filmed without editing, from your first access to the information to your sealed prediction.


What makes it more interesting is the girl who lied about her age...Nadine...cos on the way home...I picked up that she was going to be in the band....I thought 'no I have got it wrong'...at the same time knowing I hadn't...!!!

This is interesting. it's been bothering me that you used astrology to make predictions about her and yet she lied about her age. Did she give you her correct date of birth? If not did her fake chart look like someone who would eventually achieve platinum success, 15 top ten hits including 3 number ones or at least justify her place in the last 32 of a high profile talent contest through sheer coincidence? Or did the information that you gleaned about her come mostly (through psychic means or otherwise) during your short face to face session?


This was born out when the events unfolded...so it must have been precognition (no one else knew Nadine wasn't going to be in the band...she was HOT favourite...if I had been reading Louis and everyone else she would have been in my envelope)

...but if you were solely reading an astrological chart based on a false birthday then you’d have been confused as to why she was even in the last 32...

This was what shocked people...crew included ...I knew for sure when they all wanted readings from me that something had happened!


But still they told me nothing...in fact I almost didn't get invited to the launch party...cos I could have (If I wasn't nice person) have done huge press and spoiled the show in advance...

(I also got the lotto numbers in the same week....and told a DJ the record he was going to play next whilst I was sitting at home on the phone...THIS freaked me out actually more than getting the SIX kids right and it was the one and only time I have wobbled myself!)

It sounds like you were truly on form that week. Was it a large lottery win?


It interests me that some of you assume psychics cheat...this is obviously the premise of septics who do not believe there is such a thing as psychic ability. (the story above should give you the hint that we certainly don't....well I don't anyhow...what would be the point in cheating? If there isn't such a thing as psychic ability there isn't...if there is there IS)

I agree that presumption is to be avoided. However we're all fallible and occasionally succumb to a simplistic world view choosing to eliminate seemingly unlikely possibilities as impossible. It is no assumption that some self proclaimed psychics do cheat. Nor is it an assumption that no psychic been recorded as able to perform under the sort of controlled circumstances that would leave no room for doubt. Whilst some would explain this disparity in part by a law of psychic phenomena that causes it to fail in a rigorously controlled environment the simpler explanation is that where alternative mundane methods are available to explain the phenomenon then those methods are used. The psychic may not in all cases be aware of such alternative explanations or their subconscious use of them. Therefore the default position of the sceptic is always the simplest available. In most cases this is that such psychics are likely deluded. To accuse someone of being a cheat requires evidence that the methods they are using require conscious involvement. It is not usually the simplest available explanation.



I am interested in the way Derren Brown does not admitt to psychic ability...he is very clever and in a way is duping people with reverse psychology on this...to my mind he is more than a little bit psychic (on occasion)..!

Well that may be the case but it is worth noting that he earned his living as an illusionist using a bit of mentalism before concentrating solely on a pure mentalism act at the request of his manager and TV producers.
http://www.jamyianswiss.com/fm/works/derren-brown.html (http://www.jamyianswiss.com/fm/works/derren-brown.html)


He is fascinating but seems to use tricks to appear apparently psychic...and of course he does use TRICKS for the most part...(I certainly don't use tricks)

I thought the sceance he did was revealing though and it did not work...I was able to tell immediately that the people who were supposedly dead were actually still alive....(Mediums can do this)
So if he had had me in the room for that particular experiment I would have seen through it immediately...

we have a similar guy here in Ireland called Keith Barry...who is very good too

I have not researched URI...I was simply asking you what you thought of him...I was not making a personal comment on whether I rate him or not...



Gellar is a moderately talented illusionist and an extremely talented showman. It is a shame that he chose to live his entire life "in character" Of benefit for him is that it allows him to exploit the gullible with spin off merchandising such as "Uri Geller's Crystal Pendulum Dowsing Kit", "Uri Geller's Mind Power Kit", "Uri Geller's Mind Potential CD" etc. Of great disadvantage to him has been the high profile conflict this has brought him including expensive frivolous litigation.

Check the wikipedia article for more information on exposes and litigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller#Noel_Edmonds_footage

As such Uri Geller has picked fights with the sceptics and lost. He has been publicly exposed as a fraud and even if he does have some vestige of psychic ability to be exposed as a cheat has done no favours for any possible genuine psychics. He is a friend to neither psychic or sceptic and if I were in your position I'd put as much distance between him and myself as possible.

[brianp]

Murats Chart (http://collaboratingwithfate.blogspot.com/2007_05_27_archive.html)

I think these are dangerous allegations in the worst possible way – they indicate Murat’s guilt – surely he is innocent until being proved guilty by proper evidence? – and then the cop-out sentence “Even if he is proved to be innocent their destiny was intertwined at that location, at that moment.” Mmmmm >:-)

I keep thinking that Maddy, like thousands of other missing children, might never be found.

I seem to recall Murat's lawyer warning the media that, although he couldn't sue while still under investigation, he fully intended to persue cases of defamation as soon as he was able. Since that warning the press have been much more careful what they wrote about the guy. "Psychics" should take note - and I doubt that disclaimer would help.

And yes, I too think it unlikely that the kid will be found at all let alone found alive.

[Cuddles]

This is interesting. it's been bothering me that you used astrology to make predictions about her and yet she lied about her age.

Busted.???

[psychicsarah]

(damn...just lost a huge post of explanation...so will try to do it again in brief...)


Matt...still working my way through your points...

The Tv show was done so that it was not broadcast until AFTER the envelope was done....I did not see the kids before hand...nor hear them dance and sing. I only got to watch after I had done my work...so that was interesting for me actually

I worked (briefly) off their SUN sign astrology...but only in passing...I only got the names and birth dates the night before and only had time to look at the name numerology and check the SUN sign of the kids...so no detailed charts were drawn

I am primarily a psychic and these other pointers re readings, astrology and numerology...were part of my prep for the TV programme just in case they needed a bit more variety and different angles on what I was saying...I personally do not need these tools to get the psychic insights....ie I don't need to do someone's astrology, to get psychic insigths about them

There is nothing you can bust me on re this...there are 101 witnesses to what happened and it is all on camera

I only had Nadine's sun sign...Gemini (and if you watch the programme you will see I was on to her...but just wanted to be tactful and not blow her cover knowing that she was young and also louis' favourite!)


NB) If Rhandis records are as good as you say then he should have emails and 2 application forms from me and the Tv company...one undated (which was why he refused me on the first count). I am not interested in Rhandi's money...though do appreciate the provisos and criteria of his test...

I find it facsinating you think I am lying on all fronts...I really am NOT!

These things I am saying have all gone into the public domain and there are evidences for them


:cheesy:;):smiley:8)O0:cheesy:

[psychicsarah]

re the kids when I met them...I did an intuitive reading and did not use astrology...that was just prep for the brief chat with the judges the following morning and back up for me just in case the tv people needed something more

Yes in Nadine's reading there was HUGE future success and I told her so...

You have misunderstood the involvement of the astrology in these predictions and in the envelope scenario...it was minimal...I only had a note of their star signs...that was it...

the whole thing was done from psychic INTUITION without reference to other disciplines....

[psychicsarah]

Ha that makes me laugh...you really think Louis would be influenced by my predictions???!!

(though I have since been able to tell him who is going to win each episode of X Factor...That does not then mean he can influence what is going to happen)

From what I now know of Louis I would say that if he had known what was in the envelope he would have gone for completely different choices just to be bold! Huge evidence he did NOT see them til he opened the envelope on camera...(you can see in his reactions as he opens the envelope that he doesn't know what is in there...as I explained he was embarrassed on my behalf...thinking I am going to get it all wrong..)

As I explained...the Nadine factor was what made this whole thing...she was the out and out favourite to be in the frame...

If I had gone on what Louis was thinking she would have been number one in the envelope....

[psychicsarah]

I have the answer to the uranus thing is there further back

AGAIN....

no the 84 day thing...links to the developments re getting the UK police out there...I knew I wouldn't know what the breakthrough meant until a few days later...it also links to evidence breakthrough which as yet they are not making public...

(I am aware of the planetary placings currently of Neptune in Aquarius and Uranus in Pisces...not sure why someone thought I wasn't further back...I was talking about the links of these planets to the NATAL charts of Murat and Maddy)


I tried to explain re the 84 day thing...there is a vibrational pattern to numbers and the 84 links to Uranus...Astronomers wouldn't agree to this ...but intuitive astologers would...I am aware of the facts...but there is a vibrational element to astrology that astronomers for the most part don't recognise...



NB...

V bloke you are wrong...plenty of what I have just said there defies the odds...and anyway if others are betting and winning they probably have either a psychic streak and/or a lucky one./...!!!

Psychic ability is a latent ability in all of us which can be developed...it is simply part of our brains capacity...even YOU all have it in there somewhere....probably much more so than you realise...O0

[catkins]

Sarah on one of the other forums you kept mentioning San Miguel ( algarve)...no its not beer. There is a small village behing PDLuz about 10mins or so named Barao Sao Miguel, but it is slightly N.West.
Cat

[vbloke]

You gave no answer at all - you merely said "it has an 84 day cycle" which means nothing when I asked what this 84 day cycle actually is.

If you're aware of the planetary placings, why did you get them WRONG?

Also, you should be aware that neither planet was in the constellations you mention during any of the dates of birth of the protagonists you mention.

You do realise that astrology is bunk as well don't you? Or didn't you read the articles I linked to earlier? If you can explain what this mysterious force that astrology has that is not distance-dependant (unlike every other force) is, I might listen.

NB...
I am not wrong. Everyone defies the odds every day. It was billions to one that I stepped on a particular paving stone on my way to work this morning, but I did. And if someone was laying bets on which ones I was going to step on, SOMEONE would have guessed correctly. Someone winning the lottery defies odds of millions to one, but they still do it. It's not magic, it's statistics and chance.

If psychic abilities truly exist, perhaps you could explain what part of the brain "transmits" and "receives" these psychic messages? I very much doubt that you can, however.

[psychicsarah]

I am not saying Murat did this....indeed he did NOT....


I can tell you who did NOT do it...not who DID


You have to understand what I do is primarily psychic ...I use the astrology details sometimes and certainly not all the time...

I was providing a PROFILE which links linking Maddy with Murat's DESTINY in this matter and saying quite clearly that Murat's age of 33 links with the SCAPEGOAT phenomenon ....quite clearly

You really MUST read what I say MORE carefully...there is some very selective reading going on here

I have always said that a 'shadowy figure' who will never be caught did this crime...(see sKy news forum)

Murat did NOT do it...but he is inixtricably (?) linked with Maddy and his chart reflects that....this is what we could call a karmic situation...it is extremely loaded...

[vbloke]

I can tell you didn't do it - that doesn't take psychic powers.

[psychicsarah]

No v bloke...

she won't be found through hard detective work...she will be happened upon by someone going about their business (because I do not now believe they will search on the basis of what I or any other psychic has said)

I had a professional responsibility to pass on what I picked up re Maddy and for the 101 th time it has ALREADY led to a site of importance being FOUND...which I sincerely hope they keep an eye on by the way ....

What I have done re this has already been validated and I have explained it endlessly to you....

This does not make me feel better...it is nothing to do with how I feel...once again ...I have been trying to HELP....

This is pointless...like talking to a brick wall

:-\

[vbloke]

Generally speaking, she will be found in one of two ways - by the police or by a passerby. This is how most of these cases end. It doesn't need a psychic to tell you this.

once again (as you put it, for the 101th time), you have provided NO EVIDENCE for any of your claims, so as far as I (and most people here) will be concerned, there IS NO EVIDENCE, you have made no verifiable claims and your protestations can be discounted (ever hear the adage "an empty vessel makes the most noise"?) - you have not found anywhere of significance or provided any validation.

As I have said before - if you can claim without evidence, I can dismiss without evidence.

[psychicsarah]

QUOTE Tolmond

*Everyone* was looking for her all over the world?
I don't think so.
Many people had assumed she hadn't lived long (which is the likeliest conclusion in such cases), and the logical conclusion from that was that she probably wasn't very far away. That was presumably the initial best guess of the police, which is why they did a fair bit of combing nearby waste ground, etc, as police all over the world habitually do in such situations.
Maybe other psychics were coming up with bizarre distant destinations, but if someone wanted to make a prediction with the best chance of coming true, finding her relatively locally would have been by far the best bet from the word go.

------------------------

ridiculous!!! ....Are you now saying there hasn't been a world wide campaign which has distracted from the local searching????

and am I now going to be criticised for telling the TRUTH of a situation (from the word go???)

Maddy's parents especially her father have been working on the basis that she is being well cared for and will be returned...

I was trying to help get her found ....Remember I have been consistently been saying the dutch tip off was not a hoax...


There is some very selective reading going on on here


time for me to leave...again...O0

[Admin]

there is some very selective reading going on here

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :cheesy:

We should have a "Quote of the week award" - and that is definitely this week's winner. ;D

Sarah has an uncanny ability to dismiss and ignore anything that contradicts her fantasy of being psychic and she comes out with that!!!

[psychicsarah]

it won't be a passer by...and it certainly won't be the police

Now...work that out cos I aint going to tell you!


goodbye....

john...I have been trying to answer the points made....on here and on the other thread...I do not read selectively....but this really is pointless...


over and out....

(v bloke there is evidence of the correct predictions I have made all over the media...on camera, radio and in papers)

over and out....

[Dr B]

:jd:


Sorry.........:-[

[psychicsarah]

I am a psychic...and I use astrology as a tool SOMETIMES to tune into situations...please actually READ what I am writing

I am well aware that currently Neptune is in Aquarius and that Uranus is in Pisces and that these are slow moving planets...so what?


Over and out....::)

[psychicsarah]

catkins...jaysus...really????

Thanks for that....(maybe guy who did this lives there...bet he does)

Thankyou anyhow....I am leaving here now though....cos it really is pointless at the moment....

Psychic clues in a case like this are just that...psychic CLUES..

[psychicsarah]

Ha dr b that is your best post ever!!!!

:cheesy::cheesy::cheesy:

like it....

[psychicsarah]

CATKINS
QUOTE

Sarah on one of the other forums you kept mentioning San Miguel ( algarve)...no its not beer. There is a small village behing PDLuz about 10mins or so named Barao Sao Miguel, but it is slightly N.West.
Cat

Thankyou Catkins...I bet the guy that did this lives there....

(I know re the clues that the San Miguel doesn't link to beer...though the curent San miguel ad says LOOK FURTHER and has a fortune teller on it...interestingly Miguel is also in the address of the police station handling this case.)

[catkins]

Hi Sarah...I have been trying to find you somewhere as lost sign on details of other site....Have driven thro on many occasions,not much to it..unfortunately don't remember in detail. The whole area around the Algarve is mainly dry scrubland. But there are so many rural villas and derelict places in that area.
I hope they find her soon...but I am thinking like you on that score
Cat.

[tolman]

she won't be found through hard detective work...she will be happened upon by someone going about their business (because I do not now believe they will search on the basis of what I or any other psychic has said)

I also suspect she'd likely be found, if ever, by someone going about their regular business. As we are well aware, such people frequently are found that way, especially after initial official searching has been done without success and then stopped.
Indeed, in both the Soham and Sarah Payne cases, they were found by civilians just going about their usual business without psychic prompting.
A psychic who knew that that was what was going to happen would have told police not to bother searching *at all*, not merely to search here rather than there.
Though if they were *really* psychic, they'd have mystically foreseen they themselves weren't going to be any bloody use, and not bothered doing anything.

A skeptic just playing the odds would probably take 'chance discovery' as a pretty good bet.
Good choice, 'psychic'sarah.

[vbloke]

p sychicsarah (I'm using this spelling because you persistently spell my name wrong), as I've said a few times before (as have others) these predictions were not made under test controls are are essentially worthless (except as anecdote).

Once you perform under controlled conditions, then we'll count your evidence.

[vbloke]

Once again, avoiding the questions - if you were truly confident in your abilities, they should be easy to answer.

The "So what" is the fact that you claim these planets are in certain places at certain times which help you draw up your astrological charts. I have SHOWN YOU that they weren't where you thought they were, which renders your charts worthless, and any predictions made on these charts also worthless.

Now, since you were mistaken with something so basic as the position of two planets, maybe you could re-evaluate your other "evidence"?

Also, using the word "vibration" is NOT an answer. Nor is "84 is linked to Uranus" HOW is it linked WHY does this link exist and WHAT does this link mean? THOSE would be answers.

[tolman]

QUOTE Tolmond

*Everyone* was looking for her all over the world?
I don't think so.
Many people had assumed she hadn't lived long (which is the likeliest conclusion in such cases), and the logical conclusion from that was that she probably wasn't very far away. That was presumably the initial best guess of the police, which is why they did a fair bit of combing nearby waste ground, etc, as police all over the world habitually do in such situations.
Maybe other psychics were coming up with bizarre distant destinations, but if someone wanted to make a prediction with the best chance of coming true, finding her relatively locally would have been by far the best bet from the word go.

------------------------

ridiculous!!! ....Are you now saying there hasn't been a world wide campaign which has distracted from the local searching????

I'm saying there has been worldwide publicity, and various random people keeping an eye open who would otherwise have done nothing, with a few of them thinking they'd seen something.

However, I'm not sure that caused local police to be any less use than they would have been without it. As police playing the odds, they'd likely be suspecting all along it was something relatively local, and the media attention might well have made them intensify their local effort rather than reduce it.


and am I now going to be criticised for telling the TRUTH of a situation (from the word go???)

No. However, you are going to be criticised for changing your past distance estimates, and you're going to be criticised for saying things that aren't true about your history of past estimates.
Maybe you've just got a deeply selective memory, but someone who says "I never said X" when they clearly did, and then fails to explain things has either memory or honesty issues.


Maddy's parents especially her father have been working on the basis that she is being well cared for and will be returned...
They've been hoping that's the case, as would most parents. How long it takes for their position to change is up to them.



There is some very selective reading going on on here
Indeed there is.


time for me to leave...again...O0
Goodbye. At least this conversation probably won't get deleted like some of yours elsewhere. Were those deletions down to you, or just another 'psychic' trying to cover their tracks?

Still, the Google cache is a great source of 'deleted' information.

site:mirror.co.uk bestie maddy psychic

is a useful search term

[Matt]

Hi agian Sarah,


(damn...just lost a huge post of explanation...so will try to do it again in brief...)


I hate it when that happens



Matt...still working my way through your points...

The Tv show was done so that it was not broadcast until AFTER the envelope was done....I did not see the kids before hand...nor hear them dance and sing. I only got to watch after I had done my work...so that was interesting for me actually


Excelent. Discounting that possibility increases the chance that you'd be able to perform the feat again in a controlled test.



I worked (briefly) off their SUN sign astrology...but only in passing...I only got the names and birth dates the night before and only had time to look at the name numerology and check the SUN sign of the kids...so no detailed charts were drawn

I am primarily a psychic and these other pointers re readings, astrology and numerology...were part of my prep for the TV programme just in case they needed a bit more variety and different angles on what I was saying...I personally do not need these tools to get the psychic insights....ie I don't need to do someone's astrology, to get psychic insigths about them


Ahh that's a shame. I was hoping you'd say you'd be able to make similar predictions without actually meeting the subjects. It's now looking like face to face contact is required for you to make your assessment. Is that correct?



There is nothing you can bust me on re this...there are 101 witnesses to what happened and it is all on camera

I only had Nadine's sun sign...Gemini (and if you watch the programme you will see I was on to her...but just wanted to be tactful and not blow her cover knowing that she was young and also louis' favourite!)


Bust you? Are you addressing that comment to me?

I've got the clarification I need. The information didn't come solely from the astrological infomration but from what you propose is psychic sources. Are these sources dependent on the face to face meetign occuring? If so that might be a major blow to rerunning this impressive feat as a controlled psychic test.



NB) If Rhandis records are as good as you say then he should have emails and 2 application forms from me and the Tv company...one undated (which was why he refused me on the first count). I am not interested in Rhandi's money...though do appreciate the provisos and criteria of his test...

I find it facsinating you think I am lying on all fronts...I really am NOT!


OK so this really isn't directed at me is it...

Though if you do have an outstandign claim with the JREF perhaps my discussing what would be a worthwhile claim and what protocols should be required isather surplus to requirements. How is your JREF claim progressing?

I wish you the best of luck.

[psychicsarah]

catkins....

Can you remember with your driving in the area...a village of yellow houses....there is scrubland...but also then quite a lush green area...wooded too...you park up on the right and there is a shrine on the road side with some thing in it....before stopping you drive down between 2 inhabited white houses....there is a layby and very steep hill and track up to trees at the top...and a gully on the right...there is a concealed path behind the shrine...

At the foot of the hill is a yellow derelict house...broken wall...peartrees in the grounds...

does this ring any bells? ...it is not far from p de luz....20 min drive

you can't go any further on this particular road....you have to get out and walk....

[psychicsarah]

No Matt..I do NOT cold read...(see DJ story)

I do NOT need to meet people to do predictions ...far from it....even though I have met loads of celebs with my work in Bono's club...I certainly did not meet them all and part of my work is to do such predictions for the papers from day to day

I picked one of the kid s from a photo on the wall when I went for my interview re the job....Emma...said she would be in final band...(From a dodgy black and white photocopy on the wall)

I do not need to meet you to read you

[vbloke]

The you should have no problem telling me what is on my monitor stand.

There are 3 items on there - I have a photo of them, all you have to do is tell me what they are.

Simple, no?

[psychicsarah]

No Matt...not addressed to you re the busted thing...

I am trying to also answer some of the more annoying posts...but concluding that it is best not to bother!

Someone wrote 'busted' when they thought I had done a detailed astology chart re Nadine...who had lied about her age...

I am not currently making a Rhandi application....will wait to speak to the tv company re their programme first to see if this might be part of the show or not....

[psychicsarah]

posts were deleted on mirror forum because of bullying....the info is all still up on sky...

[Matt]

Ha that makes me laugh...you really think Louis would be influenced by my predictions???!!

It's always good to laugh. I only suggest it as a possibility that would have to be eliminated in a propperly controlled test. Didn't I emphasise that enough?


(though I have since been able to tell him who is going to win each episode of X Factor...That does not then mean he can influence what is going to happen)

Well he does have a fair amount of influence.


From what I now know of Louis I would say that if he had known what was in the envelope he would have gone for completely different choices just to be bold! Huge evidence he did NOT see them til he opened the envelope on camera...(you can see in his reactions as he opens the envelope that he doesn't know what is in there...as I explained he was embarrassed on my behalf...thinking I am going to get it all wrong..)

I'm not as good a judge of people as you evidently are. Whatever impression I got from watching his reaction would hardly be unequivocal and unequivocal is what we're aiming for here.


As I explained...the Nadine factor was what made this whole thing...she was the out and out favourite to be in the frame...

If I had gone on what Louis was thinking she would have been number one in the envelope....

If that had been your sole source of information, quite possibly. I'm by no means suggesting that it was.

[Matt]

No Matt...not addressed to you re the busted thing...

I am trying to also answer some of the more annoying posts...but concluding that it is best not to bother!

Someone wrote 'busted' when they thought I had done a detailed astology chart re Nadine...who had lied about her age...


I hoped so.



I am not currently making a Rhandi application....will wait to speak to the tv company re their programme first to see if this might be part of the show or not....

Well I for one would be interested. Have you had any thought about protocols?

[tolman]

Bullying?
Surely you could have objected to specific posts, rather than deleting much of what you wrote without explanation, and/or getting the entire threads pulled?

[catkins]

Hi Sarah......Head Banging and brick wall come to mind.......

As for where you are describing....it is quite common. The colours vary some houses painted yellowy/ goldy or plain white and other pastel colours too, faded would suggest sunbleached therefore not new .. Tho lush green usually means private residences or Golf Courses. We usually drove thro sao Miguel to get to another village.As for the hills with wooded areas...quite common too.( I didn't think the Dutch letter was a hoax either.) Will ask hubby about your description as he has better recall then me. (One for the men on here )....He to thinks we're nuts..LOL

Catkins

Sorry guys...not trying to hijack your argument, ever heard of open minds ?

[Admin]

ever heard of open minds ?

Yes, we hear about open minds all the time from credophiles. See: The Open Mind (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php).

I take it you're out in Portugal then?

Well, this is a really good opportunity to see just how good psychicsarah's information really is.

If you're in the area, Sarah can guide you to the, so far mystery, location and you can report back exactly what it is you find.

Good idea?

[Dr B]

Sorry guys...not trying to hijack your argument, ever heard of open minds ?

Ever heard of informed minds?

[catkins]

Sorry no.....I wish I was in Portugal right now.

No I think everything should be up for discussion...but reasonable discussion not put-downs.
I was on the fence about mediums/ psychics (still am to some degree)
but there are some things which I can't explain that have happened to me in my life.....so I am open....but as for absolute proof that probably differs from one person to another.

[Allo Allo]

(ever hear the adage "an empty vessel makes the most noise"?)
I like "All gong and no dinner"!

[Dr B]

Hi there (and welcome O0)



No I think everything should be up for discussion...but reasonable discussion not put-downs.

But a discussion where people propose alternatives - which are more likely is reasonable. No one is being 'put-down' - but where claims are made - it is legitimate to challenge them.



I was on the fence about mediums/ psychics (still am to some degree)
but there are some things which I can't explain that have happened to me in my life

All this means is that you may not be aware of the natural explanations that may exist - but that does not mean these explanations do not exist.



but as for absolute proof that probably differs from one person to another.

Actually - speaking scientifically and logically - no it does not.

[Matt]

Matt the kids were guys and gals....half and half...re the 10 minute readings...(also I had to help one lad with a sore leg who could not walk...I can lift pain often quite quickly....he had damaged it playing football the day before and got up pain free after i had helped him for 5 mins...Shane was his name if I remember correctly)

I am trying to illustrate that this was an organic situation which evolved and it seems had a life of it's own...I wonder is there a danger that strict testing stiffles the psychic flow...it is quite possible...

still pondering the question

Well certainly an organic situation present infinitely more opporunities for prediction. You could have predicted that Nadine would be selected and then dropped or that she would acheive her success in another talent show and another band. You could have predicted that the band would get to number 1 in the Irish charts or that they would break the record for fastest selling single. Or you could have predicted that they'd fail to break the UK market and disband.

Under a controlled test one one type of prediction would be required. Only that type of prediction would be acceptable.

It seems to me that very few claim to be able to operate in this manner. It's almost as if psychic predictions are not something that they make happen or can even guide but something that happens to them.

It is much harder to test that sort of psychic claimant.



Unless I just continue to make predictions on here for you???


Would that count???


Well under certain circumstances it might. If we restricted ourselves to a specific type of prediction where foreknowledge of factors influenceing the result was simply not possible. If the probability of getting the prediction correct by chance alone was calculable then by comparing your success rate with the range permited by pure chance we would hope to be able to discount pure chance as an otion. having already discounted any mundane explantion we woudl be left with the psychic. If we were unable to quanify the probability of getting the answer through pure chance then the results would not be conclusive.

Lottery numbers looks like a good candidate.

Though we would have to prespecify certain things. Wouldn't want to be accused of making scattershot predictions.



There is no such thing as cold reading or the need for it when you have genuine psychic ability....


:cheesy:

And yet when sitters aware of cold reading make active efforts to inhibit it then some psychics claim they are "closed" and unreadable. Even if you are recieving psychic information about somebody you are inevitably also recieving feedback from them during a face to face meeting. I heard that you claim a 90&#37; success rate. If that's true then you're not always 100% certain. If you then make a predcition and they say "yes that's true" then you are recieving information.

[Matt]

No Matt..I do NOT cold read...(see DJ story)

Once adina I'm not asserting that you do just explaining why certina restrictions might be neccessary to eliminate the possibility.


I do NOT need to meet people to do predictions ...far from it....even though I have met loads of celebs with my work in Bono's club...I certainly did not meet them all and part of my work is to do such predictions for the papers from day to day

I picked one of the kid s from a photo on the wall when I went for my interview re the job....Emma...said she would be in final band...(From a dodgy black and white photocopy on the wall)

I do not need to meet you to read you

That's excelent news. It means that in a rerun of this as a propperly sceptically controlled test you could just work from photographs.

[chillzero]

NB) If Rhandis records are as good as you say then he should have emails and 2 application forms from me and the Tv company...one undated (which was why he refused me on the first count). I am not interested in Rhandi's money...though do appreciate the provisos and criteria of his test...

I find it facsinating you think I am lying on all fronts...I really am NOT!

These things I am saying have all gone into the public domain and there are evidences for them


:cheesy:;):smiley:8)O0:cheesy:

I have checked, and Sarah did apply for Randi's challenge, but the application was rejected by Randi because she would not follow the rules. It seems that she attempted to negotiate via a TV studio, which didn't go down well either.

[Julia]

psychicsarah,

If you want to waste your one and only life wallowing in puerile fantasy you have every right to do so. My usual reaction to people like yourself is a mixture of pity - because the real beauty and excitement of a rational life is a closed book to them - and contempt, because so much of their ignorance is wilfully self-inflicted. However, in your case I think I'll skip the pity. So far you have "helped" the McCann family by:

a) Foisting your rambling delusions on a couple who have made it clear that they DON'T WANT this type of input.

b) Bombarding the Mirror board with drivel and linking to your own website - do you think people can't recognise self-promotion when they see it?

Talking about self-promotion, I was amused to see that your application for the JREF prize was turned down because you attempted to involve a TV station in the process...I wonder why? ;D

I've come across some far-gone fantasy-prone people in my time but you really are in a class of your own. And the sad thing is that when Madeleine or her body is found and you're pestering the media with claims to have been instrumental in solving the case, there are plenty of lazy/gullible journalists who'll be happy to co-operate with you.

[Matt]

I have checked, and Sarah did apply for Randi's challenge, but the application was rejected by Randi because she would not follow the rules. It seems that she attempted to negotiate via a TV studio, which didn't go down well either.Well Horizon challenged Randi with a homeopathy test so TV involvement shouldn't be a deal breaker.

[vbloke]

...I use the astrology details sometimes and certainly not all the time...http://www.rte.ie/tv/ttv/ttv/sarahdh.html
http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/horoscopes/horoscopes-677641.html
http://www.ceefax.tv/imode/aertel_imode21.php?page=673&subpage=7
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Starscope-Sarah-Delamere-Hurding/dp/184223174X
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-14649093_ITM

need I go on..? You seem to be making a good living out of astrology.

Oh, and congratulations on predicting the black pope in 2004. Although I suppose that was one of your 10&#37; wrong predictions.

http://www.irishskeptics.net/?p=37
http://www.irishskeptics.net/?p=23
It seems the Irish Skeptics aren't too impressed by your abilities either.

[fruitfly]

Bestie, Mirror Forum, June 12, 2007 (Seven weeks ago):

My prediction on the Maddy case is that this will be solved in the next three or four weeks rather than dragging on forever...

By the way, Bestie, when you die do you want to be cremated or concealed?

[random thoughts]

Posted on http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/a/256534.htm

psychicsarah says:
June 7, 2007 at 6:53 am (http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/a/256534.htm#comment-26302)

For the PORTUGESE POlice should they care to read it…
I was wondering if you could verify if the info I am getting about Maddy makes any sense.
I am well know here in Ireland for my psychic work (you can verify my credentials on psychicsarah.com.) I have a high rate of accuracy with what I do.
In the Sarah Payne case I informed the police that the search north of the border was futile and that Sarah would be found 10 or 11 miles from home within an day or two…she was. Also in the Soam case I said that Holly and Jessica would be found within a day or two and that Huntley was indeed the perteprator
In this case re Maddy; I am really not convinced she is still alive. I have a feeling she is buried in rough/dry/sandy sparsely wooded ground between 2 and 4 miles north/ north east from where she was taken…(I have sinced checked the maps and this road and route leads north to the forested mountain region)
I am not convinced that Maddy was abucted for a paedophile reason…I have a feeling it was a sense of loss over a child … I have impressions of who did it and better not say. But the key to finding her is to dowse over a detailed map of the Algarve…
I am wondering if this is a Huntley type scenario?? Just as I am not convinced there was abuse in the Soam Case…I don’t feel there has been with Maddy…people assume this too readily sometimes…these things are sometimes a hideous kind of scenario which escalates out of control and I believe this is what happened re Maddy….she was ‘accidentally’ strangled when the abductor panicked…possibly and ironically because of all the publicity…
It is all much closer to home than people realise…it’s someone local who would not stand out like a sore thumb and who was aware of the routines…she was carried away; not put directly into a car…and kept briefly in an underground basement or cellar…it wasn’t madly planned or thought out…it was spontaneous and opportunistic becasue of emotional trauma within the person who abducted her
My prediction on the Maddy case is that this will be solved in the next three or four weeks rather than dragging on forever…though I think that the search across Europe is pointless except to raise the profile over other missing kids perhaps. If that is some good which can come out of this fine… But I think the Mc Cann’s will be rueing the day they left their kids to head to the Tapas bar for a long time to come…regretably…
Let me know if I can be of any help in this; I know there will be all sorts of psychic info coming out of the woodwork on this. But we DO need to find Maddy!
I this case I DO hope I am wrong and that Maddy will be alive and released…but….it’s not looking good.
There is a psychic from Austria who believes Maddy is being held with a rich family in Morrocco in Meknes…by a man aged 40 to 50 who wanted a pretty child. Again she feels there is no physical abuse. and if she is not found within a year she will not then be found until her teenaged years. If this is true…how many rich family’s can there be in a smallish place like Menkes?
I hope this lady is right and I am not…but these are the two main scenarios presenting to us all and they both need to be checked out. We will then have the answer…
God speed the answer to this horrible situation
Her parent’s need an answer and we need to put our energy into this….concentrate on finding HER and then it will be more clear who did it and why…

And more, hope somebody out there is keeping track of all her predictions. Buried in rough/dry/sandy/sparsely wooded ground. Now that's going to be easy to find in Portugal. Anyway got to go now and turn off/remove the power/switch off my squarish/roundish/whitish/grey/computing/processing machine

[Cuddles]

Well Horizon challenged Randi with a homeopathy test so TV involvement shouldn't be a deal breaker.

I think the implication is that Sarah applied but would only negotiate via a third party who had nothing to do with the challenge. A specific challenge to Randi by a TV show would be a different matter.

[psychicsarah]

no cuddles..you make such interesting assumptions....both myself and the tv company corresponded directly with Rhandi by email on this matter...

I deleted re the ulster rugby as I have a personal links with the team

Rhandi rejected the first application because it wasn't dated...there is no place for this on the form...the Tv company then had to appologize and grovel re me sending in another form....which we did...then RTE turned down the idea as it stood...

I refused to work with the Irish skeptics on principle (for reasons which Rhandi was well aware of) and we then were going to put forward the option of working with the UK skeptics instead as I felt better about you guys....(mmmm...must have been picking up on Matt and Jockey!!!)

You have to understand that this whole thing is just like banging one's head against a brick wall unless people work sensibly together like adults to assess whether or not something is the case or not....(instead of acting like kids who think they're right and there is no possible way they can be wrong..

Also it is important to treat applicants for tests like this with much more RESPECT insetad of dismissing them as delusional before you even start the testing ....Catkins is RIGHT it is about being OPEN-MINDED...NOT robotic...)

I am confident in my ability...it has been proven time and time again....and I am only trying to enlighten you that there might at least be such a thing as THE GIFT... (in some people at least...if not in all of us latently)

[Dr B]

Sorry but....were you not leaving?

:totty:

[psychicsarah]

Dr B

It is a woman's prerogative to change her mind....

I just decided to ignore those who are making me repeat myself and link up with those who want to get somewhere with this...


Besides I HAD to tell Matt that I had already done what he asked for before he asked for it!!!!


(re the lotto numbers yesterday)


Oh even your Jelly bean prediction happened!!!

See the cricket England V Pakistan in the last couple of days...

maybe you have the gift too....;D;D

[vbloke]

the numbers came up 20 minutes after I predicted them...all verifiable by YOU witnessing what I said and by the bookies draw 20 minutes laterI suppose asking for evidence would be too much to ask, would it?


JOHN....Read S....l.....o....w....l....y and Carefullllly.....

we found the place ALREADY....

I was just seeing if the description rang any bells with Catkin as she knows the area.......(basic human interchange I think it is called...this is a chat forum after all)
O0That description could apply to almost 3/4 of the Portuguese countryside, so no, haven't found anywhere, unless you provide evidence. You say that we're making you repeat yourself - it's therefore not polite to make us keep asking for the actual EVIDENCE THAT YOU FOUND ANYTHING.

[vbloke]

You have to understand that this whole thing is just like banging one's head against a brick wall unless people work sensibly together like adults to assess whether or not something is the case or not....(instead of acting like kids who think they're right and there is no possible way they can be wrong..

Also it is important to treat applicants for tests like this with much more RESPECT insetad of dismissing them as delusional before you even start the testing ....Catkins is RIGHT it is about being OPEN-MINDED...NOT robotic...)

I am confident in my ability...it has been proven time and time again....and I am only trying to enlighten you that there might at least be such a thing as THE GIFT... (in some people at least...if not in all of us latently)Very well - we therefore challenge you to prove that you have any powers you claim you have. Kindly tell us what you can do, to what degree of accuracy and under what conditions and we can proceed from there.

[psychicsarah]

For the BILLIONTH time

we found the place....and reported it...I am only trying to help find this little girl...I am not self promoting in this matter...

I have done way more than you have all done...and I have done it with a GOOD heart...


and I know fine well that if I am right on this.....you will give me NO credit for it...so there really was nothing in it for me...I was trying to help out of COMPASSION for the situation....as I said before if I was a complete attention seeker I would have done press re everything being fine and dandy re Maddy (as some people did )

I have been very careful not to go into the details Of what I think has happened...though I did with the police...and also very careful not to spell it all out...the first post re her being buried /concealed ...flew out of my mouth in a panic because I could pick up that they were calling of the search and I felt they really should continue it...


once again...I came onto the net because someone was meant to contact me to follow up the clues because I could not go myself...this all happened.

I put up some aspects of my work on the net ....to attempt to give weight and credence to my Maddy predictions and clues and it was most definitely NOT for self promotion (this situation is definitely NOT a situation that anyone would use for that purpose....)

It is a NO WIN all around and I am only trying to do my bit to help

(I don't actually work as a psychic at the moment...I am a WRITER )

At the last count I don't think it was illegal to make a living out of writing popular astrology columns...let me know when it becomes illegal and I will retire...

[Dr B]

Dr B

It is a woman's prerogative to change her mind....



You seem to do a lot of that with your predictions and posts...<IMG class=inlineimg title=">:D" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">




Oh even your Jelly bean prediction happened!!!

See the cricket England V Pakistan in the last couple of days...

maybe you have the gift too....;D;D

I never made a prediction about jelly beans - I offerred to sell some magic beans (I suppose thats what you count as a hit - but its categorically wrong) - they are still here - would you like to send a cash please? O0

[psychicsarah]

An aside...

For those of you who think I am delusional re thinking I am psychic....I gave you hard evidence on this matter on this forum here yesterday...

http://skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=896&page=20


Matt asked me for lotto numbers as an appropriate way to verify my ability

I gave them re the Irish draw 49's at 12.29pm

9 11 19

they came up 20 minutes later in the draw made at 12 50 and 49 seconds...

(verifiable through Paddy Power in Ireland)

and because I was here chatting I missed out on my 3k! (that was the stupid bit!)


Now... I am going to kiss you goodbye...I gave you the evidence you wanted...in a verifiable way...and in a way agreed and proposed by Matt...


:cheesy:

[vbloke]

The numbers Paddy Power give for the last lotto draw are:
06 17 24 26 36 44
02 11 12 18 32 43
08 10 13 18 20 26
You got 1 out of 18 correct. Hardly psychic.

[Dr B]

Well done Vbloke!!!!

Does that mean my predictions in the other thread were more accurate :cheesy:

"The psychic Scientist"...ooohhhh I can see it now......get me Most Haunted on the phone and other pseudo-nonsense ;D

[Cuddles]

The numbers Paddy Power give for the last lotto draw are:
06 17 24 26 36 44
02 11 12 18 32 43
08 10 13 18 20 26
You got 1 out of 18 correct. Hardly psychic.

I really don't get this. Vague handwaving and claims about the subjective nature of reality I can just about handle, but what is it with some people claiming to have hard evidence when the actual evidence is freely available to everyone and directly contradicts them?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Latest ramblings from the Sky News messageboards, I'll post it here before it gets deleted or altered Posted today at about 1:47.



well I hope mj is right...that maddy is alive and well

but I have to say I really do NOT agree that Maddy was taken for reasons of cloning experimentation...which I think is what he is saying???

I am not trying to be unduly negative...if you remember I got the descriptions of a place that we then FOUND...and we reported something that simply had to be reported...

The place I describe does exist

I would love all of that to be totaly separate from Maddy...

Thoughts yesterday were for some reason back to that San Miguel AD ...re look further

I was thinking of the fortune tellers hennared hand...a very Morrocon and Moorish thing....and she tells the gu to watch for three ships....

of course the San Miguel logo is the sailing ship....

Then I thought of the Christmas carol...

I saw three ships come sailing in...

on Christmas day on Christmas day....


Then remembered The Star of Bethlehem which of course also links to Christmas...

and something I omitted to tell you cos I'm not big on dreams is that I had a dream a month a go that she was found wrapped in Christmas packaging...I won't go into the other details of the dream


So I wonder...about all these Christmas links....

Sorry if it sounds a bit abstract...but something seems to be pointing to Christmas with this...


this does not discount or contradict what we are saying on what seem to be other significant days...92 nd and 96th and the mid august point


Incidentally Virgo time is often a time when things come out of the woodwork...and I have always thought it significant the Mc CAnn's are planning to stay all summer...ie ) they are 'putting out' for a resolution by the end of the summer...ie Virgo Time.... Saturn moves into Virgo in September too...also significant...

Will let you know if I work out what the Christmas stuff means....


MJ is the abbreviation for Matt James - no one really understands what he says though, cos he writes such complete garbage (see the other thread under Psychics where I started tracking what he said, before I experienced feelings of complete futility 8)).

The longer this goes on, the more fantastical the psychic musings!

[catkins]

Afternoon all........

Sarah..methinks all of these disbelievers...would rush round to their local newsagent to buy a lottery ticket based on your numbers....even though they dismiss you ha ha...mind you I probably would too....
Sao Miguel....checked with hubby..not a lot there not exactly what you'd call a village. He did remind me of something on the drive through it.....if you came up with that...it could not be guess. (I don't mean for these puppies...I mean to reassure you that it was the right area ).
Catkins

[vbloke]

Afternoon all........

Sarah..methinks all of these disbelievers...would rush round to their local newsagent to buy a lottery ticket based on your numbers....even though they dismiss you ha ha...mind you I probably would too....
Sao Miguel....checked with hubby..not a lot there not exactly what you'd call a village. He did remind me of something on the drive through it.....if you came up with that...it could not be guess. (I don't mean for these puppies...I mean to reassure you that it was the right area ).
Catkins
I have a dragon in my garage. You can come round and see him anytime.
By the way, did I mention that he's invisible, intangible and does not radiate any heat, so you can't detect him in any way?
So, you're welcome to come round and prove that he doesn't exist.
Keep an open mind here - I have a dragon! He exists because I can see him, even though nobody else can.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

The numbers Paddy Power give for the last lotto draw are:
06 17 24 26 36 44
02 11 12 18 32 43
08 10 13 18 20 26
You got 1 out of 18 correct. Hardly psychic.


Hold on - those are yesterdays results I think, but I can't find any for today yet.

ETA - ignore me, I joined the conversation late and got confused

[psychicsarah]

http://skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=14500&posted=1#post14500

you lot really CAN'T read can you!

You really ARE incredible with your selective reading

I stated QUITE CLEARLY that the prediction was for the 49's draw...

(which is the TWICE daily IN house lotto draw in Paddy Power)

the draw took place at 12. 50 and 49 seconds ....20 minutes after the numbers were predicted on here at 12. 29

page 20 of other thread...

9 11 and 19 came up in the lunch time draw (the first draw of the day)

Brilliant research v bloke....


;D;D;D

[Dr B]

so is that a yes to giving us this weeks numbers and next weeks numbers then????

[psychicsarah]

you really can't read can you

I made it quite clear that the prediction was for the 49s draw which is the in house twice daily draw in Paddy Power

the numbers came up 20 minutes after predicted...(see page 20 other thread)


brilliant reseacrh v bloke...



;D;D;D

http://skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=14500&posted=1#post14500

[psychicsarah]

told you..you aint winning money off my back....^-^

[Dr B]

From the other thread John jackson notes




The Irish national lottery is a 6 from 45 draw. Psychic Sarah, however, only chose 3 numbers from the 45.

The good thing with lotteries is that it's possible to work out the odds of matching numbers exactly.

The chances of one number from a choice of 3 from a pool of 45 matching up is 1 in 5.49

I think we can all agree that those odds are not exactly staggering and not indicative of psychic ability. ;)

A further complication however, is that there are three draws per day and psychicsarah did not mention which draw the numbers would match in. So we now have three opportunities to match this 1 in 5.49 number so the odds are reduced by three.

So the chances of psychicsarah's lottery prediction coming true are a staggering: 1 in 1.83

Or in percentage terms, getting one number right from the three lotteries by choosing 3 numbers will result in a match 55% of the time.

About the same chance as guessing heads or tails with a coin.

Proof of psychic ability?

I think not. But it is further evidence that people who think they're psychic have a very poor understanding of chance and probability (!)

[Dr B]

So - to summarise - you didnt display anything anyone else would not be able to do by chance, and you are refusing to prove us all wrong....

Sounds familiar

Are you sure you dont want those magic beans?

[tolman]

Matt asked me for lotto numbers as an appropriate way to verify my ability

I gave them re the Irish draw 49's at 12.29pm

9 11 19

they came up 20 minutes later in the draw made at 12 50 and 49 seconds...

(verifiable through Paddy Power in Ireland)
The Irish Paddy Power website isn't accessible from here, it redirects to paddypower.com which doesn't seem to carry 49's information, so we can't tell when yesterday's lunchtime draw (resulting in 9, 11, 14, 19, 20, 37+33 according to other sites) took place, and compare it to your 12:32 edit time.

[Dr B]

told you..you aint winning money off my back....^-^

Translation

"I wont do it because I cant do it then you will all know I cant do it"

[vbloke]

I tell you what - I'll begin to consider you have any sort of power if you can tell me what I have sat on my desk in front of me at work - there are 3 objects - any one of them will do.
I have taken a photo of these objects, to ensure fair play.

This way, nobody will win any money, so you can't weasel out of making a guess.

The objects in question are on my monitor stand, there is nothing else there.

Should be simple for someone of your abilities, no?

[psychicsarah]

I DID IT ALREADY..

If I did this kind of thing time and time again it still wouldn't be enough for you and this experiment of yesterday proves that at least...

Tolmon....

PHONE paddy Power like I did this morning....0035314045900

They will give you the time of the draw and the numbers drawn...

YOU can see the time I wrote the prediction....it is not edited...it says 12.29

the draw was at 12 50 and 49 seconds for the 101 th time

Paddy power will tell you all about the draw if you ask...it is 49 balls 6 drawn randonmly plus a booster ball...

Matt asked for this kind of demonstratuon yesterday and I delivered.


-------------------------------
Now there are more important things to be getting on with

[tolman]

Weird.
I just edited my 14:20 post, and saved the changes at 14:24. The changes were saved, (the original post said 'paddy power', the edited one 'Paddy Power Website', but the post isn't flagged up (to me at least) as having been edited at all.

I was playing with something a bit odd, and I'm going to play around a bit more.

Test edit #1. Can anyone else see this post or my previous one as having been edited at all? (this advanced, other not.)
Test edit #2. First edit works, but post not showing as 'edited'. Now trying something different

[Dr B]

I DID IT ALREADY..

If I did this kind of thing time and time again it still wouldn't be enough for you and this experiment of yesterday proves that at least...

No you didnt - but let me put it to you this way.

If you take part in a test and fail - i would still want you to do more to give you every chance of success. Even probability would predict a failure some of the time.

The same holds for success - one hit (if it ever happens - and it has not here) means nothing and must be replicated.

So you see - the method is the same irrespective of the outcome - its about getting an effect and then replicating it to rule out alternative explanations. it gets harder to dismiss something if its happening regularly.

So, those numbers????

[catkins]

Awww I believe you Vbloke...will be round soon to see the pretty dragon in your garage.

As for being proved wrong.....
I don't have degrees but I consider myself able to see both sides of any argument / discussion. If I saw a shadow on a wall in a supposedly creepy house...I wouldn't run yelling Ghost. I would look at it logically and decide. ( I might run until I had time to think it through ha ha) ,but as I said the other day...I have had some odd
things in my life...which I can't explain. So....I am either very clever and can see the future sometimes or just a lucky guesser (not sure there is such a word).

Cat

[psychicsarah]

Okay if this was pure chance...

YOU all choose 3 balls for this afternoon's draw and we will see if any of you get even one right....

[tolman]

Looking at my post #73, *it* shows up as edited to me.
Why don't my two preceding posts also show up as edited?

Update: Last post now does show up as edited after *second* edit.
Trying 2 edits on this post:
Trying 3rd edit:

[Dr B]

So....I am either very clever and can see the future sometimes or just a lucky guesser (not sure there is such a word).

Cat

Indeed - and well put O0

The question is, which is the most likely, and how do we know?

[Dr B]

Okay if this was pure chance...

YOU all choose 3 balls for this afternoon's draw and we will see if any of you get even one right....

No problem - but we need a specific claim from you. O0

[Dr B]

What I am saying is - you deserve a fair test. One based on replicable results. This means doing the same thing over and over.....to an agreed upon protocol.

O0

[catkins]

Hmm...therefore....if I said someone in my family was going to pop their clogs n 2mths and they did. Would that be a lucky guess or something else ?

Cat

[tolman]

The 3rd edit on my last post (#100) is still not causing the post to show up as 'edited', and that's with the last change made after there had been a subsequent post.

Conclusion: For some reason, at present the times of postings and information about editing (and possibly last edit times) are not a reliable guide to if or when a post was last changed.

This might give a skeptic some cause to wonder about certain time-based claims, especially if the person making them was in the habit of editing posts, and so may have been in a particularly good position to notice the phenomenon.